Guild Wars 2

So boys and girls, into today historic class (which we were forced to stand outside of due to our late arrival), we found out that Elder Dragons have 2 spheres or influence. Where previously Zaitan looked to be the dragon of Death and Death, it now appears he was the dragon of Death and Shadow.

Go figure.

The interesting parts are the facts that Mordremoth is the dragon of Plant and Mind and that Mordremoth was supposed to wake up much much later.

Why is this interesting? Dragons convert magic into dragon magic (which seems to be magic tuned to a different behavior). In this episode the comment was made that every time an Elder dragon died the other Elder Dragons got stronger (as they didn’t have to share the total magic pool with as many other dragons). The last Elder Dragon standing would thus be the strongest Elder Dragon – as it would get to soak up the most magic.

Why is choosing which Elder dragon is last important? This is because the last Elder Dragon standing would release the most magic back into the world. The quirky point here is that a dead Elder Dragon wouldn’t release normal magic back into the world (as Elder Dragons don’t store normal magic). When an Elder Dragon dies, its immense DRAGON MAGIC would seep back into the world.

So we don’t get generic magic back (although dragon magic probably returns to normal through continuous interactions), we get themed magic. If Primordius died last you’d expect a whole lot of fire magic to be released, resulting in a molten age. If Jormag died last you’d get a lot of ice magic, resulting in an ice age.

In short, the two spheres of influence of the last Elder dragon to be killed would be the defining theme of Tyria’s biome after that dragon died.

So why was Mordremoth always the last to awaken? Mordremoth’s spheres of influence are mind and plant. That means that whenever Mordremoth dies last the world gets an abundance of intelligence enabling magic and life enabling magic. Which means the dominance of jungles and the growth of thinking creatures over the expansion of ice tundras or molten primordial eruptions – as both these have less of the themed dragon magic needed to fuel them.

By killing Mordremoth first, we ensure the last Elder Dragon will not be the one that causes Tyria’s climate is hospitable to intelligent apes.

So if you be believing any of this, Scarlet really messed things up for those who like plants. Or thinking.

Very interesting theory. Hope it comes to fruit, and maybe we will have to balance this problem out by tackling two dragons at once in the last stretch to counter each other’s spheres.

Seeing as the Deep ocean dragon will probably be the last one standing, one’s gotta wonder about an age defined by water and… tentacles…

Gerrand.3085:

Seeing as the Deep ocean dragon will probably be the last one standing, one’s gotta wonder about an age defined by water and… tentacles…

Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn.

In his house at R’lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming.

Mordremoth doesn’t GIVE intelligence/mind, he has dominion over mind – as in he can corrupt/control the minds of living beings. The Dragons drain all magic from the world, if they managed to do so you wouldn’t be left with a planty/intelligent being filled world – you’d be left with either a barren wasteland or something overrun in jungle and mindless dragon minions. But then it’s also worth pointing out that the dragons don’t attack each other, balance is required (according to the latest living story lore) so they all need to exist, so it’s not like Mordremoth would win out and create a Tyria in his image. We have to take him on first because he is rapidly becoming more powerful, was woken over leylines, and because he is currently active while the other dragons don’t seem to be doing anything majorly damaging/different than before.

Indeed true that Mordremoth doesn’t GIVE intelligence/mind – though his corrupted Sylvari have turned to rather sophisticated and elaborate plans…

Some disagreements after this point though. It’s been stated that dragon minions fight each other, so dragons probably don’t like each other either – may be scared of direct encounters.

Also, while dragons do drain most of the magic from the world, dragon minions are examples of free roaming dragon magic (mixed with normal stuff). So while dragons eat normal magic, they also excrete a certain amount of that magic out in the form of corruption. If a single dragon was left standing, it’s magic would probably corrupt all magic in Tyria given enough time – turning the world to it’s image. So if Mordremoth won, you wouldn’t have a wasteland or a barren land – you’d have a planet wide jungle thick with his vines and minions.

On the subject of GIVING though, I but ask this: If you had to open up an orphanage on the carcass of an elder dragon, do you think the magic seeping out of the dead elder dragon would effect the small kids in ways related to the specific dead dragon? Mordremoth minions have displayed more intellegence then previous dragon minions, executing co-ordinated attacks on forts (of their own accord) and defending the purple plant thing when they saw a flare in the last episode. Would an orphanage on Mordremoth’s carcass result in more intelligent children – or more relatably, would an orphanage on Zaitain’s carcass result in sickly, emo children.

We do have to kill Mordremoth first because of it’s aggressiveness. That doesn’t mean that killing Mordremoth first won’t have dire consequences.

- On the whole “though his corrupted Sylvari have turned to rather sophisticated and elaborate plans” while thrue, isn’t necessarily influenced by mordremoth directly. Ceara before becoming Scarlet was already a genius in every sense of the word, after being corrupted she jsut uses what was already a part of her person, not something she received from mordremoth. Same can be said from Aerin, tho we don’t ahve the same amount of knowledge of him, knowing his primary weapons are grenades and bombs it doesn’t seem unlikely that he was already knowledgable about explosives before corruption and thus , blowing up the zephyritess ship was him using his own specialty for mordremoth, not something mordremoth gave/told him. Ofcourse i may jsut have misinterpreted what you said and nothing of this is really relevant

- There is the possibility that dragon minions fighting one another doesn’t ahve anything with how the elder dragons view the others. Minions often become fanatical towards their respective elder dragon attacking anything that isn’t “one of them” as such other dragon’s minions would classify as not being “one of them” and thus be targets like all the rest, unrelated to how the elder dragons view each other.

- The fact that there were no minions left in the world after their earleir hibernation, makes me thing that after having fed on magic, they call back their minions as a late-night snack, before heading off to bed. just my thoughts ofc
There isn’t really anything to win, the elder dragons ahve shown no sign of wanting to destroy the other, they’ve lived for a very long time and neither now nor from the tales we heard from their last awaking was there ever a sign that they want to be the ultimate winner. It may sut be that they understand the need to balance the world, but hold no sympathy at all for what the costs are for such. ofcourse it’s possible i missed some things, so feel free to bring those up :p

- I think that it isn’t really mordremoth who gives them that intelligence as i said above, so i don’t think that a random orphan corrupted by mordremoth would be able to accomplish the same feats as Scarlet did who was already a genius before the corruption. AS to the regular minions defending the purple giant vine, all dragon minions in essence “protect” a more powerfull being, it doesn’t show their personal intelligence, jsut that that vine might be a “champion” of the dragon (or even part of for all we know) that, just like all other champions has a higher intelligence than the grunts.

About the magic seeping from their carcasses (or their hibernating self) i don’t think it would affect the personality of the creature, but it would be a source that could be tapped into for those who know how. The humans kittenided in orr before it’s destruction weren’t any different in personality, even though zhaitan was seeping magic from his body at the time, they may ahve been more skilled in magic due to being able to tap into its released magic, but i believe that’s all.

Killing mordremoth, from what we read from the book in the priory, is definately going to have consequences, the world needs these beings in some form to balance magic. Without them, the only result can be chaos.

@dsslive: Can’t really argue with anything you’ve said. Most of my stuff is pure conjecture.

It is interesting that there were very few dragon minions in the world after the Elder dragons went to sleep the last time (possibly none besides the dragon champions). The corruption of the Elder dragons definitely seems to dry up or disappear when the Elder Dragons are absent.

What I’m left wondering though is the exact nature of Elder Dragon “hibernation”. For example, we know the Elder Dragons eventually go to sleep of their own accord BUT that Elder Dragons which are “killed” do seem to revive to give grief to species a few thousand years later – just like the sleeping Elder Dragons.

So the question is then, does a sleeping elder dragon release magic in the same manner as a “dead” Elder dragon or are we to believe that every single time the Elder dragons have rose, all of them have been killed by the civilizations present at the time?

That and I’ll have to redo the Priory quest, I missed the book on mordremoth you talking about -.-

I do think it’s possible that the release of magic from a sleeping dragon may be similar to a dead dragon, though it could be possible that a dead dragon releases the magic at a higher rate due to there not being any regulations that a sleeping dragon would have (i could be completely wrong with this)

But i don’t think that their “hibernation” is from being killed by the civilizations present at the time, we know that the seers/forgotten/etc didn’t manage to stop the dragons, they only made them hibernate earlier by sealing the magic in the bloodstone. As far as we know there hasn’t been any sign of a former civilization having succesfully slain an elder dragon before. It could be possible, some of the elder dragons may even had predecessors (if we take the conjecture of ogden that glint would have been able to become one in due time) so maybe it’s not necessarily the same dragon that rises again, but one of its champions taking its place.

But all in all, its really all jsut conjecture :p

The book i’m talking about isn’t specifically on mordremoth but about “the all” where he (i think it was the apostate) speculates that these creatures create balance and when one is no longer to do its job, the world will tip over and fall into caos, ofc this is probably some metaphore and this is really not the exact wording so might ahve to go check that again

We’ve never heard of any of the dragons dying. They wipe out civilization, consume the magic, and return to the darkness of space… er go back to slumber. Also we have no idea what order they go back to slumbering in. Also there’s really not “dragon magic” all magic is just magic, however dragons do emanate their own variety of magic according to their type.

If you want a wild out of the blue guess they made zhaitan shadow and death, and mordy be plant and mind so that when we kill the two, the spheres of shadow and mind will be free and Abaddon will be able to be remade.

Abaddon is dead. His will was completely broken and all of his power was absorbed by Kormir. So that’s a no no.

I think we shouldn’t take such things as set in stone anymore.

Rukh.9287:

I think we shouldn’t take such things as set in stone anymore.

No it’s pretty much set in stone ^^ Abaddon is not returning, he no longer exists. Whatever form he had in nightfall, was destroyed and his energy, his magic was taken over by Kormir.

While surely Anet has retconned a bit here and there (small stuff) they aren’t gonna retcon something this big. The outlash would be tremendous lol

I doubt it. It would be pretty easy to explain how a god isn’t completely dead.

Rukh.9287:

I doubt it. It would be pretty easy to explain how a god isn’t completely dead.

Not when both the physical and magical part of said deity are absolved. The physical died and the magical was absorbed by kormir. There is no more abaddon and it will stay like this.

What can happen is that we learn more about what happened when the gods, and especially Abaddon, released magic back into the world, a story of how/why/what happened, that might give us a view on the relation between the gods and the elder dragons or the consequenses of said choice.

But abaddon is most certainly not returning. A retcon of that nature would pretty much bash in all the lore that has been established and i don’t see that happening.

dsslive.8473:

Rukh.9287:

I doubt it. It would be pretty easy to explain how a god isn’t completely dead.

Not when both the physical and magical part of said deity are absolved. The physical died and the magical was absorbed by kormir. There is no more abaddon and it will stay like this.

What can happen is that we learn more about what happened when the gods, and especially Abaddon, released magic back into the world, a story of how/why/what happened, that might give us a view on the relation between the gods and the elder dragons or the consequenses of said choice.

But abaddon is most certainly not returning. A retcon of that nature would pretty much bash in all the lore that has been established and i don’t see that happening.

She could become more abaddon like perhaps. After all isnt she still preciding in the realm of torment? I am note a lore freak, but how did abaddon get his powers again? From and old godlike source?

Abaddon had a predecessor who he claimed the mantle of godhood from. Learning this was where we first met the Apostate.

Incidentally, regarding the lesser dragon minions: How do we know there weren’t any left behind when the dragons went into hibernation? With the dragons sleeping, dragon minions may not have been particularly distinguishable than any other hostile monster, and without much ability to replenish their numbers, might be subject to being hunted down by the civilisations that arose (or rebuilt themselves) afterwards.

Mind you, the Great Destroyer started with a LOT of destroyers in EOTN. Might have been just that the GD was busy creating new ones for a few decades before EOTN, but that could also have been that the GD had a bunch of regular Destroyers go into hiding in the Depths with it.

aspirine.6852:

dsslive.8473:

Rukh.9287:

I doubt it. It would be pretty easy to explain how a god isn’t completely dead.

Not when both the physical and magical part of said deity are absolved. The physical died and the magical was absorbed by kormir. There is no more abaddon and it will stay like this.

What can happen is that we learn more about what happened when the gods, and especially Abaddon, released magic back into the world, a story of how/why/what happened, that might give us a view on the relation between the gods and the elder dragons or the consequenses of said choice.

But abaddon is most certainly not returning. A retcon of that nature would pretty much bash in all the lore that has been established and i don’t see that happening.

She could become more abaddon like perhaps. After all isnt she still preciding in the realm of torment? I am note a lore freak, but how did abaddon get his powers again? From and old godlike source?

Yes, abaddon had a predecessor, and Kormir did stay in the realm of torment to cleanse it. But just because she absorbed his powers doesn’t mean she’ll become like abaddon, his powers weren’t what made him bad. It was his conflict with the other gods that put abaddon on his path to take revenge. His own abilities aren’t inherently evil.

I mean it isn’t too hard to just say the “power” that Kormir absorbed WAS Abaddon and that slowly over time he took over his vessel.

Abaddon wasn’t killed in my mind. Whatever we destroyed in the realm of torment, didn’t mean jack squat, the power was still threatening to take over the world and cause Nightfall anyways.

Then Kormir stepped in to take the power. To restrain the power. Abaddon was the master mind manipulator. See Varresh.

What happens when that power wears and tears on Kormir?

Just as when the Abaddon we know got his powers by taking them over from the previous one, what if the gods need a newly chosen vessel every so often?

If that was the case, the other gods would likely know, and wouldn’t consider things finished with Kormir assuming Abaddon’s power. It’s possible that it’s become viewed as a divine hot potato that somebody has to hold but that will eventually drive that someone insane, but even if that’s the case, Abaddon went for centuries at least before he went bad, so any Abaddon redux storyline would not be in the scope of GW2’s timeline.

Seriously, though, the devs have said that they considered the possibility of bringing Abaddon back and decided against it. Really, though, at a year each, the dragons alone will take until 2018, and there are enough other loose threads to keep the game going well into the next decade. There’s no need to prop up that dead horse when there are probably more stories to tell than they’ll be able to fit in before somebody decides it’s time to move to the next installment as it is.

Abaddon didn’t go insane, he wanted revenge for what the gods did to him just because he wanted to go through with giving the humans magic, whereas the other 5 turned on him and told him no.

That is why he flipped his kitten.

Some believe it is because he thought we needed magic to even have a chance against the elder dragons and he was going to stop at nothing to try to get it to us.

It’s possible the other 5 gods decided that they were going to flee while the dragons were awake and let civilization die and start over, and Abaddon was trying to save us by giving us the weapons to defend ourselves.

Remember that Abaddon has a predecessor. If you’re going to hypothesise that Abaddon is going to break Kormir’s mind at take over, then the logical extension is that “Abaddon” was only a vessel likewise, and at some point the original personality took over. Even if the original personality is perfectly sane from its own point of view, the period of transition is likely going to look like insanity to an outsider… like, say, the other gods. So from their perspective… then yes, if the hypothesis of an original personality that keeps worming its way back into control, and then resuming the activities that made the other gods decide to have it replaced in the first place, is true, then from their perspective, it IS a hot potato that eventually drives the holder insane.

That said, Abaddon is referred to as ‘the insane god’ and ‘the god of madness’ a few times, indicating that he DID succumb to madness. It just may have been after he’d been locked in the Realm of Torment for centuries.

Anyway, the problem with the theory that Abaddon was seeking to give magic as a weapon to defend against the Elder Dragons is that… magic in its free state is a weapon in the hands (well, claws) of the Elder Dragons more than it is for civilisation. Keep the magic levels low, and the dragons might not even wake at all, and if they do, they’ll be less able to destroy everything. From the current patch, though, it’s possible that the gods recognised that leaving the world in a low-magic state any longer was also dangerous, and introducing magic and risking waking the Elder Dragons was the lesser of too evils.

The other problem is that Abaddon’s actions during GW1 have certainly made Zhaitan stronger and the defenses against the dragons weaker than they might otherwise have been. So if his intentions were altruistic to begin with, they certainly weren’t afterwards. However, if he was altruistic, then I’d be inclined to expect him to work out his disagreement with the others peacefully rather than launching a massive war that only made things worse.

Gerrand.3085:

…every time an Elder dragon died the other Elder Dragons got stronger (as they didn’t have to share the total magic pool with as many other dragons). The last Elder Dragon standing would thus be the strongest Elder Dragon – as it would get to soak up the most magic.

Let me get that out of my system…
You are telling me that Mordremoth will take mashing 2 buttons to kill (instead of zaithONE) and sixth dragon will be full 6-button mashing extravaganza? It’s getting serious now – how the model recipient of “Anet casual design gameplay” will take it?! Not too many buttons?

On more serious note – really neat theory. I like it a lot

Jordo.5913:

Abaddon didn’t go insane, he wanted revenge for what the gods did to him just because he wanted to go through with giving the humans magic, whereas the other 5 turned on him and told him no.

That is why he flipped his kitten.

Some believe it is because he thought we needed magic to even have a chance against the elder dragons and he was going to stop at nothing to try to get it to us.

It’s possible the other 5 gods decided that they were going to flee while the dragons were awake and let civilization die and start over, and Abaddon was trying to save us by giving us the weapons to defend ourselves.

Ever been to the realm of torment, I’d say he went nuts alright :P

aspirine.6852:

Jordo.5913:

Abaddon didn’t go insane, he wanted revenge for what the gods did to him just because he wanted to go through with giving the humans magic, whereas the other 5 turned on him and told him no.

That is why he flipped his kitten.

Some believe it is because he thought we needed magic to even have a chance against the elder dragons and he was going to stop at nothing to try to get it to us.

It’s possible the other 5 gods decided that they were going to flee while the dragons were awake and let civilization die and start over, and Abaddon was trying to save us by giving us the weapons to defend ourselves.

Ever been to the realm of torment, I’d say he went nuts alright :P

Except, you know, Abaddon basically made the Realm of Torment his kitten. Yes he was still trapped at the heart of the realm of torment, but his influence started turning it into his own world, all the while still plotting Nightfall and figuring out a way to get back into the mortal realm.

It’s a quaggan conspiracy to kill the deep sea dragon last.

Jordo.5913:

aspirine.6852:

Jordo.5913:

Abaddon didn’t go insane, he wanted revenge for what the gods did to him just because he wanted to go through with giving the humans magic, whereas the other 5 turned on him and told him no.

That is why he flipped his kitten.

Some believe it is because he thought we needed magic to even have a chance against the elder dragons and he was going to stop at nothing to try to get it to us.

It’s possible the other 5 gods decided that they were going to flee while the dragons were awake and let civilization die and start over, and Abaddon was trying to save us by giving us the weapons to defend ourselves.

Ever been to the realm of torment, I’d say he went nuts alright :P

Except, you know, Abaddon basically made the Realm of Torment his kitten. Yes he was still trapped at the heart of the realm of torment, but his influence started turning it into his own world, all the while still plotting Nightfall and figuring out a way to get back into the mortal realm.

Yeah I mean that he did that to the realm, that is not exactly a sign of sanity is it The whole place just screams, someone went nuts here!!!

Absolutely LOVE your train of thought.

A lot of speculation but seems logical enough to me.

aspirine.6852:

Jordo.5913:

aspirine.6852:

Jordo.5913:

Abaddon didn’t go insane, he wanted revenge for what the gods did to him just because he wanted to go through with giving the humans magic, whereas the other 5 turned on him and told him no.

That is why he flipped his kitten.

Some believe it is because he thought we needed magic to even have a chance against the elder dragons and he was going to stop at nothing to try to get it to us.

It’s possible the other 5 gods decided that they were going to flee while the dragons were awake and let civilization die and start over, and Abaddon was trying to save us by giving us the weapons to defend ourselves.

Ever been to the realm of torment, I’d say he went nuts alright :P

Except, you know, Abaddon basically made the Realm of Torment his kitten. Yes he was still trapped at the heart of the realm of torment, but his influence started turning it into his own world, all the while still plotting Nightfall and figuring out a way to get back into the mortal realm.

Yeah I mean that he did that to the realm, that is not exactly a sign of sanity is it The whole place just screams, someone went nuts here!!!

Not necessarily an effect of insanity, could very well be intense anger and hatred that caused the realm to twist like that.