Guild Wars 2

I really wish that ANet would just shut down these topics, because it all comes down to this, the creator of this topic doesn’t like gay people, or maybe they “don’t mind” gay people but they “don’t want to see it”….. The year is 2014, get over yourselves. When, if ever, have you seen a homosexual relationship as a main relationship in ANY game?? All these homophobes on here need to step back and take a look at the bigger picture. Here’s a good example actually, back when SWOTOR launched and you could ONLY have heterosexual relationships with your companions, how many straight people complained then about the exclusion of homosexual relationships? None, that’s right folks, none. So please ANet shut down this topic, I implore you, because this topic was created by ignorance and is being perpetuated by it.

Vexander.9850:

The Stereotype that women are more prone to emotional outbursts, being ruled by their emotions, being unreasonable when they get emotional, etc…

What particular emotional outburst did Kasmeer suffer from that showed she was ruled by her emotions or was being unreasonable? I think you are clutching at straws here, why just not admit that your real problem with the kiss is that involved two women or just not post at all.

Lasica.5068:

Vexander.9850:

The Stereotype that women are more prone to emotional outbursts, being ruled by their emotions, being unreasonable when they get emotional, etc…

What particular emotional outburst did Kasmeer suffer from that showed she was ruled by her emotions or was being unreasonable? I think you are clutching at straws here, why just not admit that your real problem with the kiss is that involved two women or just not post at all.

Because that’s honestly not my problem. Do I have to repeat that I’m gay?

Honestly, I don’t have a -problem-, just a criticism with it.

Vexander.9850:

Because that’s honestly not my problem. Do I have to repeat that I’m gay?

And? A lot of gay men have issues with woman and even lesbians because they suffer from the same male centric world view as most men do. Looking through your posting issue you certainly seem to have this problem, I mean redesigning the living story cast to make it all male… complaining that there are too many female gods and too many male villains and the rather silly post where you said you thought prior to the kiss that Kas and Jory behaved like sisters… (either that was deliberate or you’ve slept your way through the dialogue in the past living story updates).

And you didn’t answer the question. What in particular did Kasmeer say or do that showed she was ruled by her emotions or was an unreasonable hysterical woman?

Felkes.2759:

Personally I want these romantic relationships to be left out all together. The most you should get of it is the whole “aww, Logan loves Queen Jenna” but you never actually have to watch them indulge. All of that is kept behind the scenes.

When we saw the *SPOILER*kiss between Marjory and Kassamerr*/SPOILER* I let out an audible eew. I would have done the same thing if it had been any couple, kitten or hetero. That kind of stuff should be kept between the characters. This isn’t a romance game, and I don’t want to see it take the crappy action movie route where romances are thrown in just because sex sells. =/

I think romance is a natural part of any story, but the way it’s handled here is pretty bad and hamfisted.

Boneheart.3561:

Devildoc.6721:

Boneheart.3561:

kitsuneshoujo.5734:

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

Boneheart: I looked it up on Merriam Webster…

Race (noun)
1: a breeding stock of animals
2a: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
2b: a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

Species (noun)
biology – a group of animals or plants that are similar and can produce young animals or plants : a group of related animals or plants that is smaller than a genus; a particular group of things or people that belong together or have some shared quality

I’m not saying you’re wrong by looking it up, I just like posting definitions when someone says “look it up” :p

Good on you. I feel bad for thinking you might pick and choose, but that’s to be expected.

Well when we’re talking about race as it applies to humans it’s ethnic groups, but we’re all the same species.

When we’re talking race in a fantasy setting with multiple intelligent speaking species.. races mean different species, as in, they can’t breed.

Explain half-elves, please.

zznightmare.4098:

I was so relieved Jory was alive, the kiss didn’t even register until about two minutes later.

Depends on the specific fantasy world but in Tolkien at least it’s explained that they are both Children of Iluvatar, and therefore they can breed. It’s explained that neither Elves nor Men can breed with Dwarves though.

I’d assume it’s because men and elves share enough common DNA to have fertile offspring.

But Jeff Grubb has said Norn and Humans are biologically incompatible (despite one trying to marry your GW1 character and other Norns talking about being part Elonian in GW1 as well), so I don’t think Norn and Charr would be biologically compatible either.

Devildoc.6721:

Boneheart.3561:

Devildoc.6721:

Boneheart.3561:

kitsuneshoujo.5734:

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

Boneheart: I looked it up on Merriam Webster…

Race (noun)
1: a breeding stock of animals
2a: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
2b: a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

Species (noun)
biology – a group of animals or plants that are similar and can produce young animals or plants : a group of related animals or plants that is smaller than a genus; a particular group of things or people that belong together or have some shared quality

I’m not saying you’re wrong by looking it up, I just like posting definitions when someone says “look it up” :p

Good on you. I feel bad for thinking you might pick and choose, but that’s to be expected.

Well when we’re talking about race as it applies to humans it’s ethnic groups, but we’re all the same species.

When we’re talking race in a fantasy setting with multiple intelligent speaking species.. races mean different species, as in, they can’t breed.

Explain half-elves, please.

zznightmare.4098:

I was so relieved Jory was alive, the kiss didn’t even register until about two minutes later.

Depends on the specific fantasy world but in Tolkien at least it’s explained that they are both Children of Iluvatar, and therefore they can breed. It’s explained that neither Elves nor Men can breed with Dwarves though.

I’d assume it’s because men and elves share enough common DNA to have fertile offspring.

But Jeff Grubb has said Norn and Humans are biologically incompatible (despite one trying to marry your GW1 character and other Norns talking about being part Elonian in GW1 as well), so I don’t think Norn and Charr would be biologically compatible either.

Anet has said that none of the 5 playable races can cross breed with each other.

Lasica.5068:

Vexander.9850:

Because that’s honestly not my problem. Do I have to repeat that I’m gay?

And? A lot of gay men have issues with woman and even lesbians because they suffer from the same male centric world view as most men do. Looking through your posting issue you certainly seem to have this problem, I mean redesigning the living story cast to make it all male… complaining that there are too many female gods and too many male villains and the rather silly post where you said you thought prior to the kiss that Kas and Jory behaved like sisters… (either that was deliberate or you’ve slept your way through the dialogue in the past living story updates).

And you didn’t answer the question. What in particular did Kasmeer say or do that showed she was ruled by her emotions or was an unreasonable hysterical woman?

I’m sorry, what? When did I say re-design the Living Story cast to make them all male? I have never -complained- that there are too many female gods or male villains, I noted it to those people who thought this game was anti-female because they were being idiots. As for Marjory and Kasmeer, I don’t play every bit of Living Story. Trying to keep up with it 100% of the time gets very tiring. As it is I know for certain I missed the Evacuation of Lion’s Arch and the part where they all went into the Mists. Given what I saw of the two from the Toxic Tower and other bits I had seen, they seemed like sisters to me.

As for what Kasmeer did? Her portrayal in the Dungeon makes it clear. What does she do when her lover is injured so badly she seems dead? Does she try to get help? Does she stop and think rationally? No. She gets angry and acts on that Anger (and was pretty awesome doing so I might add, not that it doesn’t help the issue). So after that emotional outburst, she follows up with another emotional outburst in the form of the kiss. Do you see what I’m getting at? She’s not acting rationally, she’s acting irrationally, which fits into the trope I linked, if you bothered to read it.

Honestly you seem more intent on attacking anyone and everything that doesn’t agree with you, going so far as to put words into people’s mouths and make attacks on their character by misreading their past posting history. Rather than looking at a criticism made by someone, stopping, and going, “Hrmn… I can kinda see what he means, -but- I still don’t quite agree,” you’re going full blown, “Urgh, this male chauvinist needs to burn.”

Relax. Its a game. Its a story. I am -allowed- to have an opinion and to support that opinion, even if you don’t agree with it.

[Edit]: For Clarification, I think you’d do well to read my posts completely when making judgments. Allow me to copy paste the one you seem to have taken issue with, and highlight some points for you.

Templar.3418:

What if they killed Jory off and Kas eventually found herself some male? That’d be awesome to me. Needs to be a strong mysterious character though, perhaps somewhat generic but if they twist it in the right way he could be awesome.

Whyyyyy . . . why . . .

. . . ugh. Why do this? Why visit tragedy on a character solely so it can “fix” what’s “wrong” in your view? I mean, dramatically there are a ton of reasons to kill Kasmeer or Marjory off and leave the other alive. Simply to pair them off with “the best example of a male Mary Sue” isn’t one of them, and neither is to just pair them off with a male who is a perfect example of a strong male character who’s well-developed and well-written.

It’d be much better to introduce Kasmeer’s brother and have him endlessly hit on Lord Faren. Actually I’d pay for that, as much as I watched Lord Faren hit on attractive females.

Faowri.4159:

DarksunG.9537:

I’d hardly call Logan & Jenna a “relationship”. It’s more someone trying to impress someone else who doesn’t care.

This seems to be a case of bad writing. We’ve been assured before outside of the game that they do care for each other mutually, but from what we see in game and the way their interactions are written in the Edge of Destiny novel, it really comes across as one-sided idol-worship on Logan’s part. I’d definitely not object to seeing that relationship explored a little more.

Well, do they care for each other or are they in love with each other? There is a difference between these things, after all. She can still care for him without being slavishly devoted to liking him.

Personally I take it to be more like she’s wearing the queenly mask

. . . warning, TV Tropes link.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Faowri.4159:

DarksunG.9537:

I’d hardly call Logan & Jenna a “relationship”. It’s more someone trying to impress someone else who doesn’t care.

This seems to be a case of bad writing. We’ve been assured before outside of the game that they do care for each other mutually, but from what we see in game and the way their interactions are written in the Edge of Destiny novel, it really comes across as one-sided idol-worship on Logan’s part. I’d definitely not object to seeing that relationship explored a little more.

Well, do they care for each other or are they in love with each other? There is a difference between these things, after all. She can still care for him without being slavishly devoted to liking him.

Personally I take it to be more like she’s wearing the queenly mask

. . . warning, TV Tropes link.

That’s how I always saw it as well. Since they’re both very public images and such, they have to be careful about how they interact. When you take into consideration the rivalry between the Ministry Guard and the Seraph as well, and Caudecus’ political position in opposition to Jennah, I honestly suspect that she and Logan can’t do a lot of things they’d like to.

However, I would love a Living Story where Jennah and Logan get married. The nature of how they fit into the narrative doesn’t even have to change. Jennah still rules as Queen through her bloodline while Logan as King acts in direct defense of Kryta and her allies.

Lasica.5068:

The only people who are posting about quotas are those who have an issue with homosexuality. For these sorts of people one homosexual relationship is too many so as soon as one appears, especially one that seems to be happy and loving, they suddenly discover the need for a quota for hetro relationships because there are too few “normal” relationships being shown. They also ignore any evidence presented that says otherwise.

I tend to ignore most of them, but unfortunately they do seem to be rather persistent in their bigotry. Thankfully the majority of players don’t seem to have an issue with Kasmeer and Marjory’s relationship and I have yet to see anyone in game comment negatively about it.

This a common sociological phenomenon whenever you have an a suppressed group of people who begin to have rights and representation in a society where a privileged, dominant group has kept them marginalized.

There was a time when people claimed to support women, as long they didn’t vote or work. There was a time when some folks thought black people were fine as long as they didn’t eat in the same restaurants as whites. Today, when gay people occasionally get the same rights and representation as straights, there is naturally going to be a portion of the privileged group that sees any move toward equality as an erosion of their privileged position. As with previous civil rights issues, people always come to the table with all sorts of “moral” and “logical” rationalizations and reasons to justify inequality and prejudice.

Vexander.9850:

The Stereotype that women are more prone to emotional outbursts, being ruled by their emotions, being unreasonable when they get emotional, etc… Come on, its a common stereotype in media and literature. I’m not saying women cannot have or portray emotion without succumbing to this, but when it gets extreme, it falls into a stereotype.

If you’d like to learn more, I suggest reading this page:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HystericalWoman

I don’t see her reaction being particularly uncalled for, whether the character is male or female. Her lover is dead on the ground and she got emotional. She certainly can’t fall into the Hysterical Woman trope though because of the how the scene actually played out: instead of weeping in a corner, she went for the throat and attacked Scarlet directly. It’s actually a pretty balanced portrayal of a woman (or healthy human being, for that manner) as she shows both vulnerability and the ability to step up and overcome being vulnerable with competence and action. She wasn’t depicted as being a helpless victim or hysterical princess.

I’m not really a fan of the LS in general since a lot of it is simplistic, boring and forgettable, but i’m having a hard time seeing fault in how Kasmeer was framed in that final scene.

panzer.6034:

Lasica.5068:

The only people who are posting about quotas are those who have an issue with homosexuality. For these sorts of people one homosexual relationship is too many so as soon as one appears, especially one that seems to be happy and loving, they suddenly discover the need for a quota for hetro relationships because there are too few “normal” relationships being shown. They also ignore any evidence presented that says otherwise.

I tend to ignore most of them, but unfortunately they do seem to be rather persistent in their bigotry. Thankfully the majority of players don’t seem to have an issue with Kasmeer and Marjory’s relationship and I have yet to see anyone in game comment negatively about it.

This a common sociological phenomenon whenever you have an a suppressed group of people who begin to have rights and representation in a society where a privileged, dominant group has kept them marginalized.

There was a time when people claimed to support women, as long they didn’t vote or work. There was a time when some folks thought black people were fine as long as they didn’t eat in the same restaurants as whites. Today, when gay people occasionally get the same rights and representation as straights, there is naturally going to be a portion of the privileged group that sees any move toward equality as an erosion of their privileged position. As with previous civil rights issues, people always come to the table with all sorts of “moral” and “logical” rationalizations and reasons to justify inequality and prejudice.

Vexander.9850:

The Stereotype that women are more prone to emotional outbursts, being ruled by their emotions, being unreasonable when they get emotional, etc… Come on, its a common stereotype in media and literature. I’m not saying women cannot have or portray emotion without succumbing to this, but when it gets extreme, it falls into a stereotype.

If you’d like to learn more, I suggest reading this page:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HystericalWoman

I don’t see her reaction being particularly uncalled for, whether the character is male or female. Her lover is dead on the ground and she got emotional. She certainly can’t fall into the Hysterical Woman trope though because of the how the scene actually played out: instead of weeping in a corner, she went for the throat and attacked Scarlet directly. It’s actually a pretty balanced portrayal of a woman (or healthy human being, for that manner) as she shows both vulnerability and the ability to step up and overcome being vulnerable with competence and action. She wasn’t depicted as being a helpless victim or hysterical princess.

I’m not really a fan of the LS in general since a lot of it is simplistic, boring and forgettable, but i’m having a hard time seeing fault in how Kasmeer was framed in that final scene.

Like I said, we’re all entitled to our opinions, and I’ll respect yours. I know people who hate Jaina Proudmoore for being a [Female Dog], and I’ve seen people on forums post things like, ‘What do you expect? She’s a woman, of course she’s going to go crazy when her emotions get ramped up.’ I happen to find Jaina to be very reasonable and justified at those times myself.

Now, if people can say that about Jaina, what’ll they think of Kasmeer? Anyways, there’s a time and a place for those sort of scenes as well in my opinion. I don’t think that was the time or the place. If you removed that scene from the mini dungeon, does it really change anything? Does it affect its moods or atmosphere? Not really. That kiss would have been better placed in a celebration.

Vexander.9850:

panzer.6034:

Lasica.5068:

Vexander.9850:

.

Now, if people can say that about Jaina, what’ll they think of Kasmeer? Anyways, there’s a time and a place for those sort of scenes as well in my opinion. I don’t think that was the time or the place. If you removed that scene from the mini dungeon, does it really change anything? Does it affect its moods or atmosphere? Not really. That kiss would have been better placed in a celebration.

If they kissed in a celebration or anywhere else, people like you would still kitten about it being “unnecessary”. Nothing would change.

And I don’t agree with your whole “Kasmeer is hysterical and dramatic”. If you thought your lover was dead on the floor bet your tail you wouldn’t stop and think rationally. If she was a guy, you probably wouldn’t call him on being “hysterical”. Her reaction was understandable and everyone I played with empathized with her , and that made killing Scarlet even more satisfactory.

CharrGirl.7896:

Vexander.9850:

panzer.6034:

Lasica.5068:

Vexander.9850:

.

Now, if people can say that about Jaina, what’ll they think of Kasmeer? Anyways, there’s a time and a place for those sort of scenes as well in my opinion. I don’t think that was the time or the place. If you removed that scene from the mini dungeon, does it really change anything? Does it affect its moods or atmosphere? Not really. That kiss would have been better placed in a celebration.

If they kissed in a celebration or anywhere else, people like you would still kitten about it being “unnecessary”. Nothing would change.

And I don’t agree with your whole “Kasmeer is hysterical and dramatic”. If you thought your lover was dead on the floor bet your tail you wouldn’t stop and think rationally. If she was a guy, you probably wouldn’t call him on being “hysterical”. Her reaction was understandable and everyone I played with empathized with her , and that made killing Scarlet even more satisfactory.

I’ll thank you not to speak for me. If Kasmeer and Marjory were Kensmeer and Manson or whatever, I’d still feel the same way, as there is also a trope for an over-emotional homosexual male. If they kissed in a celebration, I’d have been fine with it. I’m not sure who you think you are to tell me what I think, but I’ll let you know you’re wrong all the same.

Vexander.9850:

Anyways, there’s a time and a place for those sort of scenes as well in my opinion. I don’t think that was the time or the place. If you removed that scene from the mini dungeon, does it really change anything? Does it affect its moods or atmosphere? Not really. That kiss would have been better placed in a celebration.

In a situation like this, i would apply the “if the gender/orientation was swapped, how would it look?” test. If it were a man who just saw his female lover seemingly come back from the dead in his arms immediately after a climactic battle, i’d almost expect him to kiss her. It seems strange to expect them to wait till some later time to show strong emotion. Right when your partner comes back from death’s door is exactly when it makes sense to hold them close and kiss them.

panzer.6034:

Vexander.9850:

Anyways, there’s a time and a place for those sort of scenes as well in my opinion. I don’t think that was the time or the place. If you removed that scene from the mini dungeon, does it really change anything? Does it affect its moods or atmosphere? Not really. That kiss would have been better placed in a celebration.

In a situation like this, i would apply the “if the gender/orientation was swapped, how would it look?” test. If it were a man who just saw his female lover seemingly come back from the dead in his arms immediately after a climactic battle, i’d almost expect him to kiss her. It seems strange to expect them to wait till some later time to show strong emotion. Right when your partner comes back from death’s door is exactly when it makes sense to hold them close and kiss them.

Exactly. I would have done the same. It’s only natural thing to do.

Call me crazy, but if my lover came back from the brink of death my first instinct would be to get them out of the -very- dangerous place and to the nearest Doctor ASAP. That’s just me. Shrugs

Vexander.9850:

Call me crazy, but if my lover came back from the brink of death my first instinct would be to get them out of the -very- dangerous place and to the nearest Doctor ASAP. That’s just me. Shrugs

Which is why you should stop calling on other people or characters that would do otherwise as something that is “out of place” because you have a different mindset about those things. It’s pointless to argue about it.

Vexander.9850:

Boneheart.3561:

Vexander.9850:

Boneheart.3561:

Vexander.9850:

Going to say here what I said in another thread.

As someone who is gay, I found the reveal a surprise, but ultimately, I am disappointed in it, though not nearly enough that it makes me change my mind about the game or anything. I’ll try to list my issues.

1) It makes Kasmeer into a Stereotypical Over-Emotional Woman trope. A lot of the female characters in GW2 are strong individuals with different traits, personalities, and so forth. A lot of the characters regardless of gender are like that. I think this is the first time a negative stereotype has been applicable to a character based on gender or orientation. Its disappointing.

2) A Video Game is not the right medium for that kind of a reveal. It felt forced into the cinematic for no reason. I’d rather have read about those two and their relationship, how it developed, grew, and so forth, in a novel or a short story, rather than having it sprung on me in the heat of battle. What could have been a really good story and reveal felt cheap and hollow.

Was it over-emotional of her to taunt Scarlet and use her illusions as a distraction in a maneuver for you to execute Scarlet yourself? Why does every woman have to be strong, it’s almost like a spit in the face to those that rely on their significant other. After what Kasmeer’s been through, I’d hate to see her lose someone again. It’d be a stereotype if everyone was “strong”, this game embraces diversity. One could interpret your complaint to be that Kasmeer represents all women, or that women are an organization and as a representative Kasmeer makes them look bad.

The kiss was a reveal? I felt like I was hit over the head with their relationship during Tower of Nightmare. I feel like the kiss was to solidify Jory and Kasmeer as “people”, not just tag-along NPCs.. and maybe to squash any lingering doubts about them.

Every woman does not have to be, ‘Strong.’ However, as I said, this is the first time I’ve seen a blatant, negative-gender-stereotype in the writing, and I was a little disappointed. Over-Emotional women tend to dominate most games and media. Look at Jaina Proudmoore’s recent portrayal in World of Warcraft, though to be honest, in that case I don’t mind as her outbursts are justified and don’t -define- how she acts and behaves. Kasmeer has always been a very bubbly and emotional person (so yes, the kiss is in line with her character), but now every time someone see’s her, they’re going to think she’s ruled by her emotions, even though that hasn’t been the case at any other point in her story.

It only takes -one- case to ruin a character. Honestly at this point I kind of hope Marjory and Kasmeer get to take a nice, long vacation and just disappear from the Living Story for a good long while or perhaps forever. Give them a house somewhere in Divinity’s Reach where players can talk to them, and update their dialogue for the new Living Story content so they can voice opinions or even give hints. They’re a nice couple, so its the least that can be done for them story-wise, to have their happily ever after.

I’m still not seeing this “stereotype” you’ve managed to identify, please be more specific.

The Stereotype that women are more prone to emotional outbursts, being ruled by their emotions, being unreasonable when they get emotional, etc… Come on, its a common stereotype in media and literature. I’m not saying women cannot have or portray emotion without succumbing to this, but when it gets extreme, it falls into a stereotype.

If you’d like to learn more, I suggest reading this page:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HystericalWoman

I think you’re confusing characters, we’re clearly not discussing the same parts of the game, and I don’t think Logan is a stereotype either. Or a woman.

EDIT: But that’s for Logan to decide, not me.

brittitude.1983:

Imperios.2543:

I think the problem is the lack of interesting male characters, not heterosexual relationships.

4/5 of the Biconics, the main LS villain, her second-in-command, Lion’s Arch’s most important authority? ALL female.

Add a few more important males and – voila! Surely we’ll have more hetero romance.

I LOVE that there are so many strong, capable, intelligent female characters.

As another poster pointed out, there are a lot of males in game already. I don’t see that as the determining factor in how relationships are created.

Do you think that person’s point is that they don’t like many strong, capable, intelligent female characters or do you think their point is that there is an imbalance of male to female characters?

You can enjoy female characters while at the same time wanting more male characters. The two are not mutually exclusive.

@Imbune: Thank you. I can respect your position too, although I think this just goes to show just how murky and convoluted this whole issue is and how diverse people’s opinions can be.

At the end of the day, ANet has made the decision to include this content. People have the right to post their approval or disapproval as feedback, and let ANet decide what to do from here. Everybody on both sides should remain calm and refrain from personal attacks, as that’s not going to help anybody or anything.

Purple Miku.7032:

While I agree with you about your ideals of love, I still dislike the feeling of it being forced upon me… especially when I’m playing a game online. I may not like the terminology that this Ben guy used in his post(s), but he does bring up a valid point. That scene really did feel out of place… maybe it would’ve been acceptable if the story wasn’t so cliche and didn’t feel so underwhelmingly drawn out. I participated in a lot of these living stories and acquired most of the achievements and watched just about all of the cutscenes and I didn’t feel any connection with any of the characters, including these two. It definitely felt like that scene was added there for no purpose other than a distraction/attention-grabber to be just like most fairytale endings… the story’s ending wasn’t anything beyond subpar.

You made some very good points in that post, you said almost everything I was thinking while the whole living story was playing out.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aedelric.1287:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And what propaganda, or opinion, is getting forced on me which is so objectionable as to be nearly criminal?

The only thing objectionable or truly criminal here is the exceptionally bad writing.

I’ve seen worse.

Yes, Dan Brown.

My point is I have seen better, a lot better. I actually find it hard to think of modern MMO games that have done worse than Arena Net in regards to the overall plot and characters of the living story.

Aedelric.1287:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aedelric.1287:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And what propaganda, or opinion, is getting forced on me which is so objectionable as to be nearly criminal?

The only thing objectionable or truly criminal here is the exceptionally bad writing.

I’ve seen worse.

Yes, Dan Brown.

My point is I have seen better, a lot better. I actually find it hard to think of modern MMO games that have done worse than Arena Net in regards to the overall plot and characters of the living story.

World of Warcraft and what they did with Illidan Stormrage.

And no, not Dan Brown. I present to you the following title you can look up at your own peril, for this is an atrocious piece of writing which has no artistic merit and the only excuse is that it was written by a minor yet was attempted to be self-published.

“The Eye of Argon”.

It’s worse than Manos.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I present to you the following title you can look up at your own peril, for this is an atrocious piece of writing which has no artistic merit and the only excuse is that it was written by a minor yet was attempted to be self-published.

“The Eye of Argon”

So now we compare the living story to the fictional works of a 16 year old boy? Yea I can agree with that comparison.

Aedelric.1287:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I present to you the following title you can look up at your own peril, for this is an atrocious piece of writing which has no artistic merit and the only excuse is that it was written by a minor yet was attempted to be self-published.

“The Eye of Argon”

So now we compare the living story to the fictional works of a 16 year old boy? Yea I can agree with that comparison.

It’s better than Dan Brown, who had a character with the unbeatable password of “3”.

Wipe them out… All of them.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Needs more lesbian romance!

Um . . . not to be a jerk, but I don’t care for any romantic involvements in the game whether heterosexual or homosexual. If I want to see romance, I’ll watch a soap opera.

More blood and guts please . . . and loot.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I’m all for equality. Neither type of relationship should receive prominence over the other. That being said we have gender considerations to make to. Female x Female relationships are not the same as Male x Male relationships – of which there is only really one in the game. I think most of the issues facing the lack, or percieved lack, of hetero relationships in game comes from the way Jory and Kasmeer’s relationship has been handled. Don’t get me wrong, I love them both – but their relationship has ended up eclipsing the plot somewhat and drawing away from actual story developing.

ADD TO THAT FACT: Marjory x Kasmeer pairing is going way too fast. From my point of view, the two characters just met and now they have a sexual relationship??? That’s what we adults call a CASUAL SEX RELATIONSHIP or “Friends with Benefits”. I think all of us romantic types (hetero & LGBT) can agree that it’s a relationship that’s built on lust instead of love. Sorry, Anet: That’s not romance. Where’s the healthy relationship that’s supposed to spawn between the two? There hasn’t been any meaningful buildup since October 2013.

I swear, Majory is taking advantage of Kasmeer’s compassion and terrible plight for some quick hanky-spanky. (<—-That’s not a mis-spelled term. I typed it on purpose.) Plus during one of the updates, Majory tells Kasmeer that she will never let Kasmeer go. The way she said it made her sound like a possessive and controlling domestic violence abuser. That’s a sign that the relationship isn’t healthy at all.

Anet, if you need some ideas on writing a romance story, look up The Busy’s Writer’s Tips on Writing Romance (http://www.amazon.com/Busy-Writers-Tips-Writing-Romance-ebook/dp/B009HUQ8KK)

BTW, I agree with the original poster: We do need more hetero NPC relationships in this game.

Nightarch.2943:

Yes! Yes! Yes! Needs more lesbian romance!

CORRECTION: Needs more HEALTHY lesbian romance.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Um . . . not to be a jerk, but I don’t care for any romantic involvements in the game whether heterosexual or homosexual. If I want to see romance, I’ll watch a soap opera.

More blood and guts please . . . and loot.

Loot is always good. I want to see more rares and unique drops.

kta.6502:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I’m all for equality. Neither type of relationship should receive prominence over the other. That being said we have gender considerations to make to. Female x Female relationships are not the same as Male x Male relationships – of which there is only really one in the game. I think most of the issues facing the lack, or percieved lack, of hetero relationships in game comes from the way Jory and Kasmeer’s relationship has been handled. Don’t get me wrong, I love them both – but their relationship has ended up eclipsing the plot somewhat and drawing away from actual story developing.

ADD TO THAT FACT: Marjory x Kasmeer pairing is going way too fast. From my point of view, the two characters just met and now they have a sexual relationship??? That’s what we adults call a CASUAL SEX RELATIONSHIP or “Friends with Benefits”. I think all of us romantic types (hetero & LGBT) can agree that it’s a relationship that’s built on lust instead of love. Sorry, Anet: That’s not romance. Where’s the healthy relationship that’s supposed to spawn between the two? There hasn’t been any meaningful buildup since October 2013.

First, not a fact but an opinion.

Second, I really do need to see where you’re getting “totally casual relationship” or “based on lust and not love” from. I mean, unless we’re talking about Logan/Jenna. Then I’ll not argue and just sit down.

I swear, Majory is taking advantage of Kasmeer’s compassion and terrible plight for some quick hanky-spanky. (<—-That’s not a mis-spelled term. I typed it on purpose.) Plus during one of the updates, Majory tells Kasmeer that she will never let Kasmeer go. The way she said it made her sound like a possessive and controlling domestic violence abuser. That’s a sign that the relationship isn’t healthy at all.

. . . I think you’re reading too much into it with your own baggage helping things make it what you think it should be. Not that there’s much wrong with that – I have baggage and experience which pretty much has a relationship like this one having developed within my awareness in RL. Though there . . . were other things involved which made it immensely weirder.

kta.6502:

Nightarch.2943:

Yes! Yes! Yes! Needs more lesbian romance!

CORRECTION: Needs more HEALTHY lesbian romance.

Objection!

Needs more healthy romance of any kind.

kta.6502:

ADD TO THAT FACT: Marjory x Kasmeer pairing is going way too fast. From my point of view, the two characters just met and now they have a sexual relationship??? That’s what we adults call a CASUAL SEX RELATIONSHIP or “Friends with Benefits”. I think all of us romantic types (hetero & LGBT) can agree that it’s a relationship that’s built on lust instead of love. Sorry, Anet: That’s not romance. Where’s the healthy relationship that’s supposed to spawn between the two? There hasn’t been any meaningful buildup since October 2013.

They hardly just met, one of the conversations in game says they met 6 months ago. That is plenty of time for a business relationship to move to a friendship and on to a more intimate relationship especially with an obvious attraction between the two (as evidenced by their flirty conversations in updates last year which you obviously missed if you say there has been no meaningful buildup since October 2013).

As for a casual relationship… well they are living together now (the sign on Marjory’s door shows this) although this development is more recent and happened after the Marionette fight (in game dialogue showed them taking this step).

There have also been a lot of conversations (e.g. around the fire in Lornar’s pass during Escape from LA, and at the Lion’s Shadow Inn for the last 2 updates) that have progressed their relationship, but a lot of people missed that because they didn’t take the time to visit those location or stick around and listing to NPC conversations.

I do not mind npcs having relationships, I just do not like any story focusing on it as it is quite irrelevant to literally anything in the game. This is a world threatened by apocalyptic dragons, we have far greater concerns.

Personally I have zero interest in Kas/Marj love interest, just like I have zero interest in the Logan/Jenna love interest. The only thing that irritates me is when it becomes the story focus, it detracts for the greater picture and makes me feel like my character is nothing but a creepy nosey eavesdropper.

At least Logans love was much more in the background rather in my face all the time. I blame the writers here, they love the characters a bit too much and have been neglecting other far more important facets of the story.

Aedelric.1287:

I do not mind npcs having relationships, I just do not like any story focusing on it as it is quite irrelevant to literally anything in the game. This is a world threatened by apocalyptic dragons, we have far greater concerns.

Personally I have zero interest in Kas/Marj love interest, just like I have zero interest in the Logan/Jenna love interest. The only thing that irritates me is when it becomes the story focus, it detracts for the greater picture and makes me feel like my character is nothing but a creepy nosey eavesdropper.

At least Logans love was much more in the background rather in my face all the time. I blame the writers here, they love the characters a bit too much and have been neglecting other far more important facets of the story.

I don’t know, I can see Logan and Jennah’s relationship as having a valid and far-reaching consequence in the story. If those two ever tie the knot, it means Kryta then has a King, and a potential heir to the throne can be born. That’s bound to stir up the White Mantle -and- the Ministry on a number of levels. The only issue there is that A.net has been shown to be reluctant to focus on human story, mostly because the original game was human dominated. I think the first season of Living Story is proof of this, given that it heavily involved the other races in terms of cultures, themes, and so forth, but in which humans had a very passing moment during the Queen’s Jubilee.

Vexander.9850:

it means Kryta then has a King, and a potential heir to the throne can be born.

Sure, we could get little baby Princes and Princesses but Logan would not become King. I say he would likely become the Prince consort, Prince Thackeray.

Aedelric.1287:

Vexander.9850:

it means Kryta then has a King, and a potential heir to the throne can be born.

Sure, we could get little baby Princes and Princesses but Logan would not become King. I say he would likely become the Prince consort, Prince Thackeray.

What’s your basis for that? I can’t say I know the lore of Tyria 100%, but I’m pretty sure the man who marries the Queen gains the title of, ‘King,’ even if the actual political power remains with the Queen. Considering Logan leads the Seraph, I honestly can’t see his position as King being anything more than a symbol for the people unless Jennah dies and he has to rule.

If its Logan’s behavior and characterization and such, we need to keep in mind that Jennah and Logan are public figures, and they would have to play their relationship very low key most of the time, and embrace it only in private. You can imagine how the Ministry would see the leader of the Seraph becoming King a major threat to their own power. I wouldn’t be surprised if Caudecus attempted a Coup during the wedding.

Vexander.9850:

What’s your basis for that?

I think you need to Google or Wiki the term Prince consort.

Logan is not a King in his own right or a Lord or even a noble.

Aedelric.1287:

Vexander.9850:

What’s your basis for that?

I think you need to Google or Wiki the term Prince consort.

Logan is not a King in his own right or a Lord or even a noble.

Where is your basis for him not being a Noble? We know he comes from a long line of high-ranking people in society, for example. Look at Gwen Thackeray. I still don’t see how a marriage to Jennah wouldn’t elevate him to being, ‘King.’

Some of you people are really letting your bias shine through.

Heterosexual males have had not only representation, but near complete dominance of the gaming industry for years now, and still do. Then when LGBT people and women get good representation in this game, which is pretty rare as is, you all want to overshadow it and complain about it, claiming you just want “equality.” No, if you wanted equality you’d want more women in positions of authority and more LGBT characters, not less, since representation of such in positive ways are rare in video games. Especially ones where the relationship is actually happy and not abusive in some way or ends in tragedy.

And if a game simply having LGBT people existing is “pushing the gay agenda” then I could easily turn around and say that any game that only has straight characters is pushing an anti-gay agenda.

If you don’t like LGBT characters existing in the spotlight, then you’re playing the wrong game. If you don’t like having a lot of female characters that outrank your own character, then you are playing the wrong game. If you can’t relate to a character unless they’re of the same gender and sexuality as you, then you’re playing the wrong game. If you want straight male representation then all you have to do is play literally any other game. Problem solved.

We ALL know that if there were all heterosexuals, and female characters took a backseat to males and it were mostly male characters in positions of authority and spotlight, these threads would not be made. That itself speaks volumes about your attitudes.

Vexander.9850:

Aedelric.1287:

Vexander.9850:

What’s your basis for that?

I think you need to Google or Wiki the term Prince consort.

Logan is not a King in his own right or a Lord or even a noble.

Where is your basis for him not being a Noble? We know he comes from a long line of high-ranking people in society, for example. Look at Gwen Thackeray. I still don’t see how a marriage to Jennah wouldn’t elevate him to being, ‘King.’

Logan not being noble comes from the second book, the one that introduced him as a character. I believe this is also the main reason Logan and Jennahs relationship is so secretive. As it would not do Jennah any good to antagonize her nobility and ministers anymore than she all ready has.

He would not be king, as king is traditionally (real world, not necessarily Tyria, but do far there has been nothing to suggest otherwise.) the higher rank. When you have a Queen as ruler, she can not have anyone with a rank higher then her, even her husband, hence the rank and title of prince consort. This is why the current Queen of England (and many other countries) husband is not a King.

Hyperbolus.7653:

Vexander.9850:

Aedelric.1287:

Vexander.9850:

What’s your basis for that?

I think you need to Google or Wiki the term Prince consort.

Logan is not a King in his own right or a Lord or even a noble.

Where is your basis for him not being a Noble? We know he comes from a long line of high-ranking people in society, for example. Look at Gwen Thackeray. I still don’t see how a marriage to Jennah wouldn’t elevate him to being, ‘King.’

Logan not being noble comes from the second book, the one that introduced him as a character. I believe this is also the main reason Logan and Jennahs relationship is so secretive. As it would not do Jennah any good to antagonize her nobility and ministers anymore than she all ready has.

He would not be king, as king is traditionally (real world, not necessarily Tyria, but do far there has been nothing to suggest otherwise.) the higher rank. When you have a Queen as ruler, she can not have anyone with a rank higher then her, even her husband, hence the rank and title of prince consort. This is why the current Queen of England (and many other countries) husband is not a King.

Hrmn… Fair enough I suppose. I imagined King Logan would be more of a Figurehead while actual power remains with Jennah due to her Bloodline. Logan fulfills a role as a, ‘Warrior King,’ who protects the lands and people through action, while Jennah fulfills her role as the Ruling Monarch by serving the people through politics.

On Topic:

I personally have seen many hetero relationships in the game. Some are just so far in the background (like the woman complaining about her husband in DR) that we just ignore them. I feel like the only reason that this one is causing so much flak is that it isn’t hetero, and it’s been made to be part of the storyline more so than the Jennah/Logan non-romance.

Should ANet have implied a kiss rather than shown it? I can’t say. I personally found it rather clichéd.

The real question should be: Who cares? Two people in a story shared a kiss. It happens all the time. What difference does it make if it’s two females, two males, or a male and a female? Good grief!

I feel a bit slighted. All the heteros got in this story line are two quaggans. Not fair, not fair at all lol

Lasica.5068:

They hardly just met, one of the conversations in game says they met 6 months ago. That is plenty of time for a business relationship to move to a friendship and on to a more intimate relationship especially with an obvious attraction between the two (as evidenced by their flirty conversations in updates last year which you obviously missed if you say there has been no meaningful buildup since October 2013).

As for a casual relationship… well they are living together now (the sign on Marjory’s door shows this) although this development is more recent and happened after the Marionette fight (in game dialogue showed them taking this step).

There have also been a lot of conversations (e.g. around the fire in Lornar’s pass during Escape from LA, and at the Lion’s Shadow Inn for the last 2 updates) that have progressed their relationship, but a lot of people missed that because they didn’t take the time to visit those location or stick around and listing to NPC conversations.

NOTE: I’m only posting this to clarify my previous comment / post.
—————————————————————————————————————————

That’s why I stressed the words “from my point of view”. I started playing GW2 in October 2013. Unfortunately, there is no way for me to go back to previous updates and watched what happened between these two characters. The content for most of the Scarlet arc was temporary. The only Scarlet arc item that is permanent is the Aetherblade Dungeon and (maybe) the Scarlet invasions (which doesn’t involve Majory or Kasmeer).

I was introduced to Majory and Kasmeer during the Nightmare Begins update. I’ve seen all the story instances involving our lesbian pair from that point on, but most of the stuff was involving the story, not romantic scenes. The relationship was ambiguous until the current update. The only way I know that the relationship is sexualized is because of the french kiss. Filmmakers in the US often use the kiss to symbolize a sexual relationship without resorting to bedroom scenes. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_kiss for more info)

Why I stress the need for building up healthy LGBT relationships: It’s no secret in the US that the LGBT relationships (fiction and non-fictional) are often exploited for cheap porn. Hollywood does this all the time to get people to pay for theater seats or watch their shows. The problem with portrayals that focus on only sex is that the religious right uses these images to say that the LGBT community is perverted and often use the images to hamper the LGBT rights. I’m a human right activist in RL, so I hate it when the media spreads images that give the haters fuel to deny LGBT people their rights.

The other issue I have is that GW2 is marketed to teens. For some of the teen players, this game may be the only time they ever see LGBT people in their life. Positive, healthy LGBT relationships are necessary to show that these folks are just the hetero folks. This game could help break down the stereotypes these kids are exposed to via the media and haters in their communities.

Then there is the fact that some of the teen players could be LGBT themselves. I remember when I was a teen. During those years, I would look at media to find and relate to celebs and fictional characters that were similar to me in some way. I did alot of this sub-consciously.

If GW2 was marketed only to adults, I wouldn’t be worried about the portrayal.

Sorry if I sounded like a mom.

kta.6502:

Lasica.5068:

I was introduced to Majory and Kasmeer during the Nightmare Begins update. I’ve seen all the story instances involving our lesbian pair from that point on, but most of the stuff was involving the story, not romantic scenes. The relationship was ambiguous until the current update. The only way I know that the relationship is sexualized is because of the french kiss. Filmmakers in the US often use the kiss to symbolize a sexual relationship without resorting to bedroom scenes. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_kiss for more info)

Why I stress the need for building up healthy LGBT relationships: It’s no secret in the US that the LGBT relationships (fiction and non-fictional) are often exploited for cheap porn. Hollywood does this all the time to get people to pay for theater seats or watch their shows. The problem with portrayals that focus on only sex is that the religious right uses these images to say that the LGBT community is perverted and often use the images to hamper the LGBT rights. I’m a human right activist in RL, so I hate it when the media spreads images that give the haters fuel to deny LGBT people their rights.

I’m sorry…what? How do you know it was a frigging french kiss? They barely have the tech atm to animate anything like that. It was more like a 2 second peck on the lips more then anything…

Also this isn’t a US Hollywood studio. What you’re describing is completely different then what was shown in this game. This isn’t about “exploiting characters for the sake of cheap porn”.

Also kiss = sex? Really? And what kind of relationship, in it’s core, isn’t part sexualized? Last time I checked, we’re humans, not robots, and that’s what people do when they’re in a relationship. You’re thinking way, way too hard about this…

My god some people sure are blowing this out of proportion. I almost feel sorry for Anet at this point, hopefully they won’t feel discouraged from evolving their writing of these characters.

If I had to give one tip, that would be don’t make it difficult for average speedy player to follow their conversations. I kinda sort of learned that if I wanted to learn more about characters I have to stick around their NPC-s and wait for a convo to pop up. It’s no wonder some people failed to pick up the vibes then? Maybe make it easier to follow somehow.

lol. French kiss? Cheap porn? Sex?

Apparently we aren’t actually talking about Guild Wars 2, much less Kasmeer or Marjory.