Guild Wars 2

That’s the best post about story and plot shortcomings I’ve ever seen.

Though I agree overall, I have to say that the point about temporary “throwaway”-content is something I disagree with.

I rather think that ANet took a look at how players usually engage with non-temporary content which is planned for the long haul in other MMOs, and observed that it ain’t being used after a week or two anyhow. Or well, whatever timescale fits the object in question.

MMO players have incredibly transient attention. You give them a shiney, they’re all over it. You implement one new shiney, they will grind that for 16 hours a day (and complain the latter 14 how boring it is) while ignoring the previous one, entirely.

Given the behaviour, I can certainly see where a transition to temporary content makes sense. It makes the world feel less dreadful because you don’t have dozens upon dozens of dead gameplay mechanics lying around, and it allows for a slightly more realistic sense of world progression. Stuff happened, it’s over now.
Mostly though, it doesn’t actually do much which we players weren’t already doing ourselves.

I agree with everything you said, a well thoght post.
One thing that raised my interest toward GW2 was the ending of GW1 eye of the north, you see livia taking the scepter of orr. in GW2 we totally neglected the story of the scepter of orr. it made livia live for 150 years later. what will happen if someone else will find it and how will it effect the world, can it help restore orr?

Excellent post. Best post on these forums up to date, by far.

One thing I’d add to story and lore as a whole:

Please don’t recycle very important pieces of GW1 in Guild Wars 2 because you lack on ideas. Few examples:

-Staff of the Mists – It’s said that this thing is as important and value, unique as Scepter of Orr and together they make a very dangerous weapon. This Staff in second game is exotic staff with “mist” theme and can be obtained on Trading Post… Really? It’s like selling the Breachmaker in full size in gemstore as mining pick or using Abbadon’s model for a spider pet.
- Vision Crystals – Players who know the first game will see the difference. From one of the most important things in GW storyline to a mere crafting component…. Again, wth ?
-Tome of Rubicon – A backpack. This is ridiculous considering it’s the very foundament to GW:EotN.
-Ascended/Infused – GW1 had whole story for these things. Infusion was something rare, a gift from an ancient rivals of the Mursaat, unique. Now something sold by a vendor.
Ascended? Ascension was a huge chunk of storyline of Prophecies and Factions. To be Weh No Su you had to pass the trial, meet Celestials… Now you can craft Ascended armor and in fact be ascended by farming and crafting. Ekhm.

Annnnnnnd post of the year goes to….

THIS GUY.

thank you for your post, shriketalon.

If “what ravings” didn’t already have me, buttocks on the stick-figure Marionette certainly did.

+1 million for bringing up these basic and outrageous faults with GW2 storytelling that make it no different that a beginner’s fanfic, now if only the devs would not only read, but accept and improve…

And to the Flirtaceous Dragon – babe I love when you talk villainous to me.

This is an excellent post which really hits the nail on the head for the numerous flaws the Living Story had. I really hope Anet pays attention and listens to this feedback. The living story had a lot of basic writing mistakes and that’s quite worrying, learn to walk before you try to run.

The Living Story killed any interest I had in the game’s story or characters and with game balance and features postponed for months because of it there was no reason to play other than for AP farming.

Really good article. Well put together and sums up the frustrations of many.

Dude, this is a GREAT post man. It’s a bit harsh I admit, as a writer its very hard to read something like this and not feel a bit uneasy, so don’t expect staff to reply to it. But nonetheless, its very constructive and well done critic. I hope it reaches some hearts.

I’m sincerely blown away by this. Do you have any background as a writer? I can see you put some real effort on this and it is applicable not only in this scenario, but in any kind of writing. I’m saving these for my personal use.

Kudos to you. And I know you love this game. That my friend, is pure love.

Anet, this is important. Read it, learn from it.

Others have pointed out Horrik and Mai Trin as commanders, which I was going to do. There’s also the Molten Firestorm and Molten Berserker that can still be found in Fractals, but they were even more shallow and probably not “generals”.

I would love for the death of the Toxic Hybrid, who was going to be my other suggestions as a faction leader type, to still have an impact. The krait thought this guy was literally an incarnation of their prophets. And we murdered him in the face. U MAD? I hope so. Come at me, Krait.

I also think Mai Trin has a good opportunity to be used as a plot device in Season 2. Maybe she goes to the White Mantle and offers up a deal. She’s the leader of sky pirates and we know there’s some black market business going on over in the Maguuma with bandits. Seems like she (more likely her less-popular and not-on-Wanted-Posters minions) might be a good smuggler for moving their goods around. We’ll see.

Nice post, OP :) As usual.

Excellent post. Hope they continue to improve for the next season!

Great post. Hope they improve the basic flaws next time around.

Can this guy be on the Living Story team please?

After just reading his diagrams, I feel more passion for what happens/could happen in GW2. Than the ENTIRE STORYLINE OF SCARLET could ever hope to make me feel.

Why couldn’t we get some of that for the last fifteen months?

It’s extremely rare tat I +1 a post, but this one deserves it. A concise, humorous, and thorough examination of what was wrong with the LS plotline without being overly preachy or caustic.

It was a wild ride that got good at the end and then dropped off, but we can do better. I have faith that the next chapter WILL be better because of the mistakes we suffered through.

Just dropping in to say that these are some excellent, excellent points.

GW2 storytelling has always been hit-and-miss; some storylines are awesome (the charr and asura early missions DRIP atmosphere and have memorable characters, even if those characters get thrown under the bus later). Tybalt/Kieran/Forgal are the most fleshed out characters in the entire game. It’s a pity they get killed off without a decent replacement for them. Let’s face it, kieran and tybalt are likeable, you know what motivates them, what their weaknesses are, what they’re like. Trahearne was a monotonous & supremely unintelligent and banal bore with not the slightest hint of any emotion of any kind.

Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is – storytelling up to level 50 in the personal story was mostly good, after 50 it was… well, “rushed” is probably the kindest way to describe it. Please tell me you’re having the people who did the early bits work on the next bit of the Living Story, not the people who did the Trahearne trainwreck & the hotchpotch of early LS chapters :o

Most striking to me was the entire integration into the existing lore, or rather the lack of it. Combine that with the inconsistencies from the PS, and it really leaves a bad taste.

That said, I liked the events like the LA evacuation the most, because you were actually NOT some kind of super special guy that saves the day, you were just some guy helping people.
It fits much better into the world than the PS, where EVERYONE is being the pact-commander and having personally killed zaithan in his own little story bubble in his mind somewhere.

It’s an MMO, I want to be part of the community, the adventures, the lore and the world!
I don’t want to be told “I’m special” when I know everyone is just like me. I know I’m a unique snowflake yadda yadda etc, but that isn’t an achievement, and pointing it out just sounds condescending. This mostly applies to the PS though, and that is not foir this thread.

Tom Gore.4035:

#14

You do have dialogue with the NPCs. It just isn’t voiced.

And whatever they do, I REALLY hope they don’t reintroduce the marionette shows from the Personal Story.

So what youre trying to say is we need to do our own voiceacting? I remember AQWorlds saying the same thing the first time they introduced voiced content.

Cayafas.8290:

Just dropping in to say that these are some excellent, excellent points.

GW2 storytelling has always been hit-and-miss; some storylines are awesome (the charr and asura early missions DRIP atmosphere and have memorable characters, even if those characters get thrown under the bus later). Tybalt/Kieran/Forgal are the most fleshed out characters in the entire game. It’s a pity they get killed off without a decent replacement for them. Let’s face it, kieran and tybalt are likeable, you know what motivates them, what their weaknesses are, what they’re like. Trahearne was a monotonous & supremely unintelligent and banal bore with not the slightest hint of any emotion of any kind.

Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is – storytelling up to level 50 in the personal story was mostly good, after 50 it was… well, “rushed” is probably the kindest way to describe it. Please tell me you’re having the people who did the early bits work on the next bit of the Living Story, not the people who did the Trahearne trainwreck & the hotchpotch of early LS chapters :o

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Keiran_Thackeray
or
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magister_Sieran
?

An absolutely well made and well thought out post. Excellent job.

Had to post that this was a great post and should be read by every anet employee. Not just the writers, but also the designers and artists.

The only thing I disagree with is with hearing more from our character. Text is fine for me.

God, someone give OP a gift or something!!.

I come from GW1 and I gotta say, this new GW2 Anet feels like a different Anet from GW1. I know they have to earn money but it seems that’s all they think about now . In GW1 we had a lot of lore wich I loved about GW now its just like they are saying “heres this new patch, with new stuff to buy and yeah, another zerg event” no lore, no explanation about nothing and I want to add something, there were A LOT of thing they could do better with the transition between GW1 and 2 but there is one thing that I will never forgive and thats Gwen’s grave. She was the pillar and at least for me, the center of GW1 universe and they forgot about her not even a big statue in Divinity’s, nothing, just a poor forgoten grave…

Shriketalon.1937:

Tom Gore.4035:

True, but if we are talking about storytelling “plotholes”, what could be more immersion-breaking than lifting the player on a pedestal, with 2 million other players? That would be one helluva crowded pedestal. This is a problem with MMOs and while I agree with you that ANet dug this “personal story” hole for themselves, I think it’s good that they are now steering a bit off that course – or at least I hope so. In my opinion, in MMOs the players should always be just that – a side character who helps the heroes get the job done. Otherwise it makes absolutely no sense having 2 million “main characters” in the story.

Hmm, perhaps there is a compromise to be made. I think you make a very fair point, but there is still something to be said for letting the player feel like a mover and shaker of the world.

If they focused less on a single group of characters such as the current Scooby Gang and let the player meet and interact with many heroes in many smaller stories, they could combine it with a few Personal Story missions that allow the main characters to get their time in the spotlight. A journey home would be an excellent start, returning the player to their city of origin as a triumphant hero, and all the horrible guilt-tripped jobs that entails. Likewise, more Order storylines would be an interesting way to delve into new tales. The Living Story could spend its time allowing Tyria to grow and thrive, and a few segments of Personal Story per year could let the player keep center stage in their own saga.

I like this point. While the individual characters were enjoyable at times, I think putting them on a pedestal and constantly having them involved weakened the story. Instead of explaining where the Orders were, the Pact, the racial armies, even the role of the Lionguard in the final battle, the story focused on a single group of characters. These characters were put on a pedestal at the expense of the other heroes of Tyria and it created plot holes while at the same time weakening the role of the player character. A large cast of smaller characters is better than a small cast of recurring characters for a world as big as Tyria (this is an MMO, not a novel, a TV series, a movie or even a single player game).

I understand the concern of having millions of protagonists treated as the hero (I feel it myself when credited with stomping Scarlet) but at the end of the day I don’t log into Tyria to be Marjory, Kasmeer, Braham, Rox or Taimi’s sidekick. I don’t want to follow them around Tyria, I don’t want to engage with the story via them. I support NPCs having stories, but there is a time and a place for every NPC (Tyria is a big place and I’ve worked with a lot of different people, it’s not all about these five characters). I don’t want to log into Tyria and do Kiel’s work for her, I don’t want to ignore all the connections I’ve made (all my friends and allies from the Personal Story) and I don’t want to ignore all the other potential stories out there, lots of characters and stories to experience. I love Tyria as a realistic world, where lots of different people are important rather than a small group of them.

I would love to see the focus return to the player as the primary character and a diverse cast of secondary characters that are most relevant to the plot. You don’t have to waste time shoehorning in the same five characters, your story is stronger when the people most relevant to it are the central focus (think the Captain’s Council and the Lionguard instead of the new Scooby Gang) and the player can feel more involved in the story instead of tagging along with the Scooby Gang.

People talk about breaking immersion, I personally find a story in Tyria that thinks Kasmeer was the best mesmer for the Tower of Nightmares (Jennah, Anise and the clockwork mesmers must have been recovering from the Jubilee to ignore that invisible force field in their back yard), that Marjory was the only one able to put two and two together, that the Captain’s Council were bad at their jobs, that Rox being present for Tequatl means anything, all these things break my immersion and shrink the story. I use suspension of disbelief when it comes to my characters involved in everything – there’s no way around it, I play the game so I’m involved, suspension of disbelief shouldn’t be used for NPC involvement.

Shriketalon.1937:

If they focused less on a single group of characters such as the current Scooby Gang and let the player meet and interact with many heroes in many smaller stories, they could combine it with a few Personal Story missions that allow the main characters to get their time in the spotlight.

Superb post Shriketalon. You condensed many of the complaints that have been thrown at the LS into an easy to understand format and made it amusing too, bravo. Let’s hope Anet cares half as much as you do and actually listens.

This was..an amazing post. While I hope the LS does improve for season 2……I feel like it’s still wise to go in with low expectations. Just seems like the amount of effort and development time needed to address all those issues would overlap with anything else they wanted to do. Which is why I think the story’s implementation has been poor to begin with. If I really want a good story, I would just go play single player game.

WanderingSavior.2576:

This was..an amazing post. While I hope the LS does improve for season 2……I feel like it’s still wise to go in with low expectations. Just seems like the amount of effort and development time needed to address all those issues would overlap with anything else they wanted to do. Which is why I think the story’s implementation has been poor to begin with. If I really want a good story, I would just go play single player game.

I don’t think they have to be mutually exclusive, I don’t think there can be a personal story but I feel like there can be a decent narrative.
Heck they just need to hire a team of decent pen and paper writers (by pen and paper I mean rpgs like pathfinder, dungeons and dragons, shadowrun and stuff like that)

I hope the writers give this a good mull over

Zomaarwat.3912:

Cayafas.8290:

Just dropping in to say that these are some excellent, excellent points.

GW2 storytelling has always been hit-and-miss; some storylines are awesome (the charr and asura early missions DRIP atmosphere and have memorable characters, even if those characters get thrown under the bus later). Tybalt/Kieran/Forgal are the most fleshed out characters in the entire game. It’s a pity they get killed off without a decent replacement for them. Let’s face it, kieran and tybalt are likeable, you know what motivates them, what their weaknesses are, what they’re like. Trahearne was a monotonous & supremely unintelligent and banal bore with not the slightest hint of any emotion of any kind.

Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is – storytelling up to level 50 in the personal story was mostly good, after 50 it was… well, “rushed” is probably the kindest way to describe it. Please tell me you’re having the people who did the early bits work on the next bit of the Living Story, not the people who did the Trahearne trainwreck & the hotchpotch of early LS chapters :o

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Keiran_Thackeray
or
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magister_Sieran
?

Sieran, thanks for pointing that out.

Keiran was mostly whiny & annoying, but I suppose that was the point of his character.

Brilliant post. I hope that ANET people read it and comprehend it.

I quit 2 days into battle for LA, I don’t care how the LS ended, I haven’t logged back in and doubt that I ever will. Enough is enough.

Feature patch just isn’t enough to mitigate the damage done by Ms. Leylines and Company, for me. The writing was not only bad, but trampled all over existing lore and was explained by nothing more than “I said so”.

Bravo for stating the obvious.

OP’s entire post is a sub-par, shotgun Creative Writing 101. If ANet writers need this kind of help with the most basic aspects of creative writing at this level, they shouldn’t have their job.

This thread shouldn’t exist. At the level of commercial delivery of a creative writing piece, the part of the writing process to which this thread belongs (i.e. editing, review and/or BASIC INSTRUCTION ON HOW TO WRITE) should be taken care of internally within ANet and never put in the hands of the player-base. By virtue of this thread’s existence, it says that the player-base is willing to hold the writer’s hands—which is something that a consumer should never feel like they have to do. Do you go to a restaurant, order food, and then proceed to the kitchen to oversee and help the chef because you can’t trust the guy to get it right? OP’s attitude simply feeds second chances to bad writers that deserve nothing more than a good sacking.

The point delivered by this thread’s OP is that ANet writers need instruction. If they need instruction; they shouldn’t be writing commercially and expecting criticism. Delivering “Season 1 of GW2 Living Story”-tier writing for commercial consumption is to expect nothing but insults or college-professor-level corrections (the latter of which, once again, shouldn’t be the responsibility of the consumer). Even so, they went through with it. And the best part of our story is: when they received all of the insults, they just responded with bans/ignored it because it hurt their feelings instead of thinking “Wow, clearly something is horribly wrong, and maybe we should take a look at our writing process.”

tl;dr

The thread is bad; the guy who made it—while well-intentioned—is bad; the people who upvoted it—again, while probably well-intentioned—are bad.

As a fellow writer, he has hit on every point that I had problems with in the event. Had there been the rest of the pints he made or even half of them , I don’t think a year is too long to carry the plot with Scarlett.

Anet, you need to hire this guy or someone like him, You have the power to do the mechanics, How about hire a high fantasy writer to run your plots?

Op. I like your post. I really do. But if ArenaNet really needed help with writing, which they do, then they really shouldn’t be holding their writer position in the company. Basically, I’m interpreting your post as a huge ‘GET GUD’ message to the company, which is greatly needed since they really do need to get good.

Another thing I thought about and would like to mention is that I don’t feel that the absence of us players from the plot is a downside. At all.

I had the same kind of feeling with the PS, that it was the idea of trying to get around the “Everyone’s-a-hero”-problem. Namely that most games present us – individually – as the hero. Or rarely a party. But in a MMO this makes zero sense, there’s millions of us, we’re the foot soldiers not the sole hero or the genius war tactician.

Though, Personal Story didn’t go far enough. It was an interesting idea to not be the hero, but now we’re the commander. As the OP says, I should be able to command an airship fleet. Which is stupid, so can every other player? Why? How does that work?

What would have been more interesting is to just be a common soldier, or even better a squad leader. If I go into a personal story instance with a party we’re the whole squad, if not I’ll get 4 NPCs which I command. Reasonable that there’d be an endless amount of these groups.

The Living Story wasn’t that bad, in this regard. It tried to make us “just a friend”. We were that foot soldier who ended up befriending the leaders and heroes.
It just doesn’t sell it too well yet.

The idea is there though, and personally, I like it. A lot.
I can be the hero in a single player RPG. In a MMO, it makes no sense.

Is “horrors of dear” the proper grouping term for dear, like “murder of crows” is the grouping term for crows? I’d never heard that before.

Such a great post! I really agree with a lot of what you said here, and the way you wrote it up and expressed it all was really awesome! Thank you so much for the time you put into making this! I really hope your suggestions are looked at by some of the dev’s!

What a great summary of flaws from LS Season Story! Very entertaining as well

It really felt liekt this is ANets first game. For a GW1 player like me it was quite disturbing how many thigns went wrong with GW2’s story. I mean GW1 story was so much better and they didn’t use the experience from that (and I carried over my experience with the GW1 story as expectations to GW2). But it’s like they started from zero and it’s the first time they developed a storyline.

I saw the Interview from foostival and I was happy to hear that they are aware of these points mentioned here. Since it got already better the last LS chapters I am sure season 2 will have a much less bumby storyline. But I don’t think it will be perfect and stick to all the “tips” you gave either, but it will be a progress. I’m quite used to the fact that it takes longer to improve things in GW2 and I’m okay with that now.

I hope they print out your images ant stick it on their office

This is the best review of the LS so far. I agree with all of the points listed. Hopefully someone form Anet will read this and take it into consideration.

I would just add 1 more point: there should be more content like in the Bazaar of the Four Winds.

very good analysis!

And indeed, despite it all, the future looks bright :-)

Excellent post.

Thank you for this post!

Most of us kept saying this during the living story and we got more or less ignored. Hopefully, your post won’t be.

Well, embarassing a bit, as I missed 90% of the LW storyline, because 2 weeks is too short for me. I guess I am not alone with this. I think it is an issue for many casual players. For those HC gamers who spend all day everyday in-game half a month is surely well enough. For those who can’t afford that much time within the game at the end of the day it might be a factor driving them away from this awesome game. Which is sad as I feel not rewarded but punished to being cut short of opportunities to fulfill Living Story achievements.

tl;dr
I really hope we will have Living Story parts for 4 weeks (in the future) at least.

This really does need to get read.

This is one of the best posts (or technically pictures) I’ve read regarding the entire Living story S1. I hope Anet reads this not only for the awesome guidelines provided, but cause they need it.

Although as mentioned at the end, I also think they have improved tons since the beginning.

My goodness, this is perhaps the best, most engaging and refreshingly positive and constructive thing I’ve seen since…

Well, it’s been awhile. Last time I remember posting was to join the voices in protest of the Ascended Gear announcement way back when Karka were still just a twinkle in ArenaNet’s eye. Remember when there was hype and speculation that the Lost Shores Patch would bring about some interaction with either the Deep Sea Dragon or the Deep Sea Dragon’s minions?

It was exciting stuff! But then that patch hit, and the patch after that hit, and the patch after that… Every time we got a patch, it felt so tangential and detached from the main setting of the game that I admittedly got more and more cynical about the prospects of the game until eventually I just stopped playing outright.

But I keep coming back to take cursory glances at the forums and to boot up the game because I love the whole of Guild Wars 2. The setting it has in place, the story it wants to tell (and dragons!)— all of this gripped me and still grips me to this day, which is why I want to believe that Guild Wars 2 can fulfill its rather high potential for awesomeness and adventure.

And I think that starts with upvoting the heck out of the OP’s extraordinary criticism, which isn’t presented as a jab or a ‘take that’, but to me seems like it was made out of genuine love for both storytelling and Guild Wars 2.

If there are others out there like me who browse or read the forums casually without posting, but feel the same, please take a moment to sign on and voice your support on this one. This is good stuff.

By Ogden’s hammer! What tips!

Amazing topic, and infographs (I love this format) and the last point is really true, Anet writers improved a lot since the Flame & Frost, but they still have a lot to improve.

Nicely written and well explained, thank you for this post.

Exceptional thread post and absolutely spot on in many areas. I loved the fact that you nailed down the shortcomings using humor and in a terrific format. I’ve also gone back and read some of your earlier work and it was outstanding., so thanks and well done!

In terms of storytelling and keeping old stories alive, the best I’ve seen this done in a MMO is probably RuneScape still.

As old and technically-limited as that game is it tells its lore and story so kitten well. It doesn’t have a main, linear plot which the player follows. It has different chains of quests which all happen simultaneously and often interact with each other.

Each quest chain has a distinct main characters, plot and theme, giving them their own soul but at the same time, they all involve at least a few story elements which belong to other quest chains, making the world seem much more alive by giving an impression that a lot of things are happening at once (just like the real world).

This can be involving the characters from another quest, closing a non-main loose plot point which was started in another quest. or there are quests which bring multiple quest-lines together.

This also keeps old stories alive, as they aren’t just abandoned but are eventually worked on over time. The oldest quest chain still isn’t finished in that game, and even the finished quest chains are still involved in the plot of new quests because nothing is standalone.

Thanks Shriketalon. Excellent post, funny and very informative!

I cannot agree enough with these points. Especially #13 and #14, IMO the Living World did a very poor job of actually telling a story. You can’t just scatter a bunch of events and tidbits of information into the world over the course of 15 months and hope that they can be kinda interpreted as a story. If you turn your head and squint a little. See, look over there, it’s like a story. Or maybe a cloud.

I think a lot of the problem is that things just pop up out of nowhere without your involvement, direct or otherwise. From the time we got a mail from Braham (or Rox, maybe) saying they contacted the Vigil and they were attacking Molten Alliance factories I’ve been disappointed with the story telling. Leaving aside the fact that they didn’t ask the charr legions or ask me, Vigil member and Commander of the Pact, to maybe help out there it was a massive missed opportunity to continue with the story missions they had begun just a week or two before, this should have been a 4-5 mission arc involving helping Rox scouting for evidence, getting ambushed or ambushing the Molten Alliance, meeting with Braham, deciding the plan (maybe explaining why the charr legions aren’t in a position to help), getting him to Vigil Keep and convincing them of the danger and getting them to commit. Instead you log in after the patch and get a mail telling you that the characters have done a bunch of stuff off camera and now the Vigil are here. Very unsatisfactory.