Guild Wars 2

SilverShadow.3021:

+1
Seems like Anet has replaced most of its story writers, because in GW1 story was quite good whereas in GW2’s Living Story it’s (imo) horrible.

They both had good moments but as a whole?

Eh, not really. All six versions of story (four for GW1 and two for GW2) were serviceable but not awesome. Riddled with cliches, predictable, and just strong enough to tie things together. Especially Prophecies and Factions.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SilverShadow.3021:

+1
Seems like Anet has replaced most of its story writers, because in GW1 story was quite good whereas in GW2’s Living Story it’s (imo) horrible.

They both had good moments but as a whole?

Eh, not really. All six versions of story (four for GW1 and two for GW2) were serviceable but not awesome. Riddled with cliches, predictable, and just strong enough to tie things together. Especially Prophecies and Factions.

GW1 was way less annoying & writer-self-satisfying than GW2. GW1 wasn’t GREAT. But the lore was better, more consistent, less dismissive of previous events & the dialog wasn’t modernized & hip. " cliches & predictable" Is almost meaningless. There are just as many in GW2. Especially the LS is just bad, they just pic currently socially popular cliches. There is no such thing as an original story.

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SilverShadow.3021:

+1
Seems like Anet has replaced most of its story writers, because in GW1 story was quite good whereas in GW2’s Living Story it’s (imo) horrible.

They both had good moments but as a whole?

Eh, not really. All six versions of story (four for GW1 and two for GW2) were serviceable but not awesome. Riddled with cliches, predictable, and just strong enough to tie things together. Especially Prophecies and Factions.

GW1 was way less annoying & writer-self-satisfying than GW2. GW1 wasn’t GREAT. But the lore was better, more consistent, less dismissive of previous events & the dialog wasn’t modernized & hip. " cliches & predictable" Is almost meaningless. There are just as many in GW2. Especially the LS is just bad, they just pic currently socially popular cliches. There is no such thing as an original story.

That’s what I said about cliche and predictability. Neither story deserves to be held on a pedestal, for all there were good times and really impressive work.

Also, I don ‘t think “writer self-satisfying” is what you’re thinking of. If you’re thinking of times where the writing comes off as the writer going “aren’t I just clever” then this isn’t remotely as awful as Kieran Thackeray’s courtship of Gwen. As much as I liked watching it, it really came off as trying to backfill from announcing the existence of Logan.

. . . then there was the asura, which I never liked as a whole. Vekk I liked, Oola I did to a lesser extent.

Seriously, I kind of know what you’re aiming at – the sylvari. Like everyone else. Except they’re just not as awesome even in-story as people want to claim keeps getting told. They fail much more than they succeed at anything. Again, if any race is held up it’s the asura because their failures . . . well, their failures or success shape the world which is Guild Wars 2 more than any of the other races.

And yes, Scarlet is getting laid as their failure thanks to Omadd.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s what I said about cliche and predictability. Neither story deserves to be held on a pedestal, for all there were good times and really impressive work.

I think GW1 was impressive in terms of the MMO space at the time. but it’s still better than GW2’s story.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, I don ‘t think “writer self-satisfying” is what you’re thinking of. If you’re thinking of times where the writing comes off as the writer going “aren’t I just clever” then this isn’t remotely as awful as Kieran Thackeray’s courtship of Gwen.

No, it’s definitely “writer self-satisfying”. The annoying social-relevance is out of place & stark. The new heroes are the shoe-horned modern family of MMOs. Needs to be mostly women because Anita Sarkeesian, Lesbians because current social landscape, cute-voice crippled child because pity, emasculated male in the background so it’s not too obvious & masculine anime cat girl because it’s the only way we could understand “different”.
I’d rather have a mildly boring characters who’s personality is based on the game world like General Morgan or Margrid the Sly than shoehorned social justice squad where their game world makeup is an excuse to get to & showcase their real-world social relevance.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . then there was the asura, which I never liked as a whole. Vekk I liked, Oola I did to a lesser extent.

That’s fine.I like Vekk, Oola & Gadd way way waaaay more than Zojja. & I think the main problem with the Asura is that they’ve taken away all of the mystery of the GW. they’ve reduced magic into science & it instantly becomes boring & non-mysterious. It will all be figured out in time. I like when magic is about feelings & ritual. It’s all relative & unquantifiable. The shift to science ruins all that. But story-wise they are just mechanical. A means to an end. the Sylvari are more often the key characters, just because they inherently are important. Scarlet(the most powerful/smart mortal ever), Canach, Trahearne, the Pale Tree, planetary self-defense mechanism, dragon minions… even the humans who had GODS are not that integral. & say, the Norn.. COMPLETELY lore irrelevant, yet they are. they could all drop dead & the story would stay the same. They were originally supposed to be the strongest & best crafters, now the Sylvari are the best crafters & Norn walk around saying: “you see the arm on that little sylvari!” It’s like Worf where he’s nothing more than a barometer to show how much more powerful other people are.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Seriously, I kind of know what you’re aiming at – the sylvari. Like everyone else. Except they’re just not as awesome even in-story as people want to claim keeps getting told. They fail much more than they succeed at anything. Again, if any race is held up it’s the asura because their failures . . .

Asura fail more than succeed. That’s how science works. It’s that the Sylvari are so key to the STORY & that the smartest, most accomplished, most talented, dimension-hopping, comprehended the Eternal Alchemy without her head exploding, completely hip-insane yet perfectly convincing to all armies, master of engineering mortal is a Sylvari. Even Abbadon’s character show more restraint. & it looks like the next Dragon story will be centered around them… uugghhhhh….

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s what I said about cliche and predictability. Neither story deserves to be held on a pedestal, for all there were good times and really impressive work.

I think GW1 was impressive in terms of the MMO space at the time. but it’s still better than GW2’s story.

Eh, I think it wasn’t nearly as impressive as Dungeons and Dragons Online for having options to work with . And I have been told City of Heroes was miles ahead for narrative so long as you could stomach the comic-book logic going through it.

And of course, the perennial reference to the emergent gameplay sandbox which is EvE Online (no, I didn’t play it, I can’t stand it, and I refuse to pay to play it).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, I don ‘t think “writer self-satisfying” is what you’re thinking of. If you’re thinking of times where the writing comes off as the writer going “aren’t I just clever” then this isn’t remotely as awful as Kieran Thackeray’s courtship of Gwen.

No, it’s definitely “writer self-satisfying”. The annoying social-relevance is out of place & stark

. . . really? Social-relevance? That’s what threw this into “self gratification”? Yeah I don’t even see how to argue against that point since it’s ludicrous in the face of other self-indulgent (that’s what you meant by the way) writing I’ve seen in the past.

Or even exercised . . .

The new heroes are the shoe-horned modern family of MMOs. Needs to be mostly women because Anita Sarkeesian, Lesbians because current social landscape, cute-voice crippled child because pity, emasculated male in the background so it’s not too obvious & masculine anime cat girl because it’s the only way we could understand “different”.

I . . . I don’t even know where to begin with this. Aside from it making way too many presumptions of a social agenda and by-the-numbers writing. This comes off more as a personal attack than anything.

Also, it’s really easy to beat on this because you don’t like it. But Harry Potter pulled almost the same sort of strings and numbers by book six and it doesn’t get half the flak for it.

I’d rather have a mildly boring characters who’s personality is based on the game world like General Morgan or Margrid the Sly

Bear in mind the same crop of heroes also had:
- Goren (I hit things with my hammer and that’s it)
- Norgu (I am awesome and critics just don’t get it)
- Tahlkora (Princess Jasmine with the serial numbers filed off)
- Koss (big dark-skinned guy who is over the top)
- Melonni (woman closer to earth than the man she’s paired with because female)
- Zhed (because racism is cool when it’s against humans)
- Master of Whispers (I know everything because I read the script)
- Acolyte Sousuke (walking obvious Naruto reference)
- Acolyte Jin (because we can’t use Zho, just copy her)
- Olias (resident creepy necromancer)
- Dunkoro (cool old dude whose advice is always going to work)
- Zenmai (because we need an assassin hero)

. . . yeah, their personalities weren’t all that impressive either when you take a step back.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . then there was the asura, which I never liked as a whole. Vekk I liked, Oola I did to a lesser extent.

That’s fine.I like Vekk, Oola & Gadd way way waaaay more than Zojja. & I think the main problem with the Asura is that they’ve taken away all of the mystery of the GW. they’ve reduced magic into science & it instantly becomes boring & non-mysterious. It will all be figured out in time. I like when magic is about feelings & ritual. It’s all relative & unquantifiable. The shift to science ruins all that. But story-wise they are just mechanical. A means to an end.

Yet they’re almost always the means to get to the end beyond the local issues. There’s always an asura who can solve the problem – and this was true way back during the Krytan Civil War . . . think, really hard, how did the defenders even stand against the mursaat and jade constructs when they arrived?

The Sylvari are more often the key characters, just because they inherently are important. Scarlet(the most powerful/smart mortal ever), Canach, Trahearne, the Pale Tree, planetary self-defense mechanism, dragon minions… even the humans who had GODS are not that integral.

Humans had their time to be integral two hundred years ago, and they did plenty. Also, you’re assuming and stuffing fan-lore about the Pale Tree in here so . . . don’t do that. Cite your lore references or don’t do that.

They were originally supposed to be the strongest & best crafters, now the Sylvari are the best crafters & Norn walk around saying: “you see the arm on that little sylvari!” It’s like Worf where he’s nothing more than a barometer to show how much more powerful other people are.

They are the best crafters, the sylvari just charge less for work which is of serviceable quality. Keep in mind, the norn crafters treat it as an art and I don’t think they do mass production as much as other races do. (Definitely not as much as the charr.)

So, if you were to claim the sylvari give the best value for quality? Sure I’d not argue that. But then it’s relatively easy to cheat them and more likely norn wouldn’t sell you anything unless you proved yourself.

Asura fail more than succeed. That’s how science works. It’s that the Sylvari are so key to the STORY & that the smartest, most accomplished, most talented, dimension-hopping, comprehended the Eternal Alchemy without her head exploding, completely hip-insane yet perfectly convincing to all armies, master of engineering mortal is a Sylvari. Even Abbadon’s character show more restraint. & it looks like the next Dragon story will be centered around them… uugghhhhh….

AAaaand you drop more things here than I care to unravel and argue against, just as you accused me of doing before.

- Every race is key to the story right now. Except maybe the lesser ones like skritt, grawl, ogres, kodan, and quaggan. Despite all attempts to make us love quaggans.

- The sylvari aren’t the most of anything as a whole, and if you want to talk about Ceara/Scarlet than remember she cut herself off from the sylvari thinking she didn’t need anything from them.

- Scarlet never claimed she comprehended the Eternal Alchemy, that’s just supposition from other NPCs based on what Omadd’s notes inferred. What we do know is she “saw something” in there, and we can infer a lot out of it. But . . . Eternal Alchemy? Please. Pull the other one, it’s got bells.

- You continue ranting about Scarlet and making her stand in for all sylvari when this really shouldn’t be the case any more than saying all humans are like Logan – irrational and prone to failure. Or all charr behave like either Rox or Rytlock, or Gaheron Baelfire.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . really? Social-relevance? That’s what threw this into “self gratification”? Yeah I don’t even see how to argue against that point since it’s ludicrous in the face of other self-indulgent (that’s what you meant by the way) writing I’ve seen in the past.

Scarlet is more of an example of “self gratification”, but Social-relevance over game-universe-relevance? Yes that’s the writer focusing more on the writer than the story. Because it’s saying “what do I like in the life” over “what makes this universe cool”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I . . . I don’t even know where to begin with this. Aside from it making way too many presumptions of a social agenda and by-the-numbers writing. This comes off more as a personal attack than anything.

Here we go. “I can’t actually admit there is theme in the characters, you’re just a bad person making personal attacks” Instant moral high ground. gg.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . yeah, their personalities weren’t all that impressive either when you take a step back.

You keep try to make the sound as bad as GW2 characters by saying things like “they don’t sound too impressive now” I can turn any character into a cliche by writing the way you did. The point is the GW2 are worse.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . think, really hard, how did the defenders even stand against the mursaat and jade constructs when they arrived?

Huh? what are you talking about?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans had their time to be integral two hundred years ago, and they did plenty..

yes, bu there was so much more restraint & balance with humans.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They are the best crafters, the sylvari just charge less for work which is of serviceable quality.

The most powerful forged weapon in the game is Sylvari made.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

AAaaand you drop more things here than I care to unravel and argue against, just as you accused me of doing before. .

You’re making assertions that have major conflicting evidence in game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Every race is key to the story right now.

Norn serve no major role that cannot be easily filled by another race.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Scarlet never claimed she comprehended the Eternal Alchemy

We just had short story that revolves around giving that appearance. they been back pedaling the ridiculousness of that ever since then.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You continue ranting about Scarlet and making her stand in for all sylvari

true, she better as a barometer for the writer than the Sylvari.

Norn and Charr actually regarding which race is the elephant in the room right now, oh and Asura, in fact, barring Sylvari and Humans I don’t think either of the other three races really got any love.

Norn and Charr got a minor cameo in what should have been a major debut for them with Flame and Frost, their involvement was limited down to two new chars who for the time were potentially develop-able only to be replaced by far more interesting chars aka: Kas/Jory/Taimi.

Charr are a one dimensional stereotype right now which is a big drawback, their entire culture is limited to violence solves everything and army heavy gears of war vibe war stories about war and death and destruction.

If that’s your cup of tea, then the Charr are for you, but unlike the Sylvari and Humans, they lack adaptability.

The same problem applies to the Norn, the Norn were written well in the novels and short stories, but delivered terribly in the game. All of their plot revolves around bragging rights and lots of drinking contests, it lacks any kind of potential for character development unless your Magnus the Bloody Handed.

Oh wait, he got an eye patch, that’s about it.

As for the Asura, well if SAB or inventing isn’t your thing then this obnoxious race of gremlins isn’t really going to be much interest to you, nor is their potential character development.

So regarding those three races id say:

- Give the Charr more in terms of personality, so they are a culture of nomads, hunters, warriors, savages, there are many elements to that, not just war and destruction, make them a little less bland and a little more diverse, in more than just how they kill people.

Norn need to have good stories to tell, epic adventure, so why is there no bards, no skalds, why are there no songwriters, or lesser heroes for Norn?, Equally, those adventures require just that, epic adventures, and adventurers, with interesting diversity and awareness that has come from venturing far away from home.

Asura? That’s the hard part, there’s always going to be a but end of the joke race that’s treated like comic relief, so how do you make them bad kitten , inventive, creative, potentially thrilling to read about.

The answer is, take advantage of their megalomaniac tendencies and advance them, make them more aggressive, more threat evoking, someone you don’t take lightly in a conversation.

Humans are diverse, so are Sylvari, that’s why people are attracted to them. Focus, on making the other races the same.

DarksunG.9537:

Scarlet is more of an example of “self gratification”, but Social-relevance over game-universe-relevance? Yes that’s the writer focusing more on the writer than the story. Because it’s saying “what do I like in the life” over “what makes this universe cool”.

It shouldn’t be about making the universe cool, it should be about making us buy into the reality of it. To actually exercise suspension of disbelief instead of going "hang on a second . . . "

I actually think the idea of “what makes this universe cool” is what made Scarlet happen in the first place. Wrong move entirely, even if she’d been human.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I . . . I don’t even know where to begin with this. Aside from it making way too many presumptions of a social agenda and by-the-numbers writing. This comes off more as a personal attack than anything.

Here we go. “I can’t actually admit there is theme in the characters, you’re just a bad person making personal attacks” Instant moral high ground. gg.

You are, though, you’re really trying to paint them as solely feminist-oriented and part of a social agenda. And you’re really reaching on most of them, considering Braham is . . . what, sixteen? . . . and at that age it’s incredibly easy to be emasculated by overreaching your capabilities.

But, then, thinking about that would get in the way of your argument.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . yeah, their personalities weren’t all that impressive either when you take a step back.

You keep try to make the sound as bad as GW2 characters by saying things like “they don’t sound too impressive now” I can turn any character into a cliche by writing the way you did. The point is the GW2 are worse.

You did turn any character into cliche by writing the way I did, when describing the “B Iconic” group. You did it blatantly, and knowingly, and I did that to prove it doesn’t mean anything.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . think, really hard, how did the defenders even stand against the mursaat and jade constructs when they arrived?

Huh? what are you talking about?

Actually, now I have to ask. Did you play the War in Kryta arc?

The only hope for the defenders was to have an asuran machine mimicing the effects of infusion to counter the Spectral Agony of the mursaat and their constructs. Even temporarily, it was required in order to have a chance of actually being able to beat back the tide.

So, yes, asuran tech saving the day before the sylvari ever entered the world.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans had their time to be integral two hundred years ago, and they did plenty..

yes, bu there was so much more restraint & balance with humans.

Not that I remember seeing. I remember seeing humanity pretty much being the top dog when all was said and done. Better than the norn, asura, charr, centaurs, and dwarves.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They are the best crafters, the sylvari just charge less for work which is of serviceable quality.

The most powerful forged weapon in the game is Sylvari made.

Caladbolg? There’s a good case for it not being a weapon so much as a vehicle for energy to purify the Artesian Waters.

Besides, the most powerful weapon in the game is . . . depending on your interpretation:

- Asuran golems. (See: “Air Drop” personal story)
- A Searing Cauldron
- Arrow Carts
- Whatever key you bind “Skill 2” with.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

AAaaand you drop more things here than I care to unravel and argue against, just as you accused me of doing before. .

You’re making assertions that have major conflicting evidence in game.

Start citing, or start rebutting since all you do is keep saying my assertions are unfounded while you haven’t done any explaining of yours other than “it’s so obvious I don’t have to”.

50 gold says you can’t properly make the case without relying entirely on Scarlet’s existence as an aberration rather than the race as presented before her.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Every race is key to the story right now.

Norn serve no major role that cannot be easily filled by another race.

Neither do charr, but given three days any race can be written out of the story so they’re irrelevant, or alternatively are completely central to the plot. Right now there are two races which are king of the hill: asura and sylvari, and one of them can actually be written out without there being a problem (sylvari).

You cannot write out asura, because they control the gate network, and produce the most effective anti-dragon weapons.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Norn need to have good stories to tell, epic adventure, so why is there no bards, no skalds, why are there no songwriters, or lesser heroes for Norn?, Equally, those adventures require just that, epic adventures, and adventurers, with interesting diversity and awareness that has come from venturing far away from home.

Norn need to push north and go claim their ancestral homelands back from Jormag. Then we’ll see them get their turn in the spotlight.

The charr would need much more effort to shine without people complaining “the writers are beating the anti-human drum again”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I actually think the idea of “what makes this universe cool” is what made Scarlet happen in the first place. Wrong move entirely, even if she’d been human.

This may be a matter of bad communication, but I think we’re sorta thinking the same thing but with diff labels. I think Scarlet was more of a “I think this is cool & awesome & I’m gonna make her great” with disregard to the rest of the universe.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You are, though, you’re really trying to paint them as solely feminist-oriented and part of a social agenda. And you’re really reaching on most of them, considering Braham is . . . what, sixteen?
But, then, thinking about that would get in the way of your argument.

Nah.. I started noticing this a year ago when I started seeing lots of the ambient dialog between men & women always have some bizzarre 1-upmanship, insulting, mockery or the like. I was like.. maybe it’s me then I saw other people posting about it.
In terms of LS I think there is strong evidence that there a feminist slant.. I don’t know how you could even give a ounce of proof otherwise. the only male in the group is dumped by his girlfriend, living under the shadow of his mom, whines more than a Norn generally does, plays 2nd to Rox & get ribbed & by her for being dumped. It’s just too much in 1 direction. He’s not horrible but there is a theme. I’m sorry, but there are too many “coincidences” to say it’s not a theme of some sort. Especially when I found that Anita had actually visited Anet.

You did turn any character into cliche by writing the way I did, when describing the “B Iconic” group. You did it blatantly, and knowingly, and I did that to prove it doesn’t mean anything.

No I said that everything is cliche. It’s just that I think the problems with GW2 characters are more egregious.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Actually, now I have to ask. Did you play the War in Kryta arc?
So, yes, asuran tech saving the day before the sylvari ever entered the world.

Yeah I played War in Kryta, but to be fair I didn’t pay much attention, though I’d hardly call that an impressive feat. The only reason they needed it was that they couldn’t get help from Ascalon at the time. EotN they were more important.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Not that I remember seeing. I remember seeing humanity pretty much being the top dog when all was said and done.

when I say balance, I mean the race characteristics/morality/abilities as a whole. They were the top race, but they fought with one another as much as everyone else. There were good, neutral & evil humans on a very equal scale. It wasn’t just nice people, a handful of neutrals & Margonites.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Caladbolg? There’s a good case for it not being a weapon so much as a vehicle for energy to purify the Artesian Waters.

That’s even worse! the Sylvari can cleans Dragon corruption with a weapon they made? Also it’s an extremely powerful weapon.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

50 gold says you can’t properly make the case without relying entirely on Scarlet’s existence as an aberration rather than the race as presented before her.

Them being the moral paragons, having the dream which is ridiculous in its implications & it’s connection to the mists, have a Demigod that can see the future(incidentally this goes back to what Scarlet saw & may in fact be more evidence that the dream is insight into the mists & Eternal Alchemy), is responsible for directing/creating the most important person in the pact, are incorruptible by dragons & can uncorrupt things(quite possibly the most important ability in all of GW2) and are highly tuned to magic more so than the other races. They are the only race that is born with a destiny that is the exact purpose of the whole story. They literally have no downside. They should be physically week, but nope, we have Norn talking about how strong they are. The shouldn’t as intelligent as Asura, but the Priory tutor is a Sylvari. They should be naive & child like, but they only use that for ambient npcs. I’m sorry, it’s just not the same to say: Yeah but Asura are used as a plot device when they need an answer. It’s more just a device. & devices just come from convenient places. You could have the anti-corruption magic of the Sylvari take place of any/most important devices.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You cannot write out asura, because they control the gate network, and produce the most effective anti-dragon weapons.

they only made that with Sylvari Anti-Corruption magic. I dunno in GW1 we could hop around without gates. I don’t know how much of a difference the gates make outside of fractals & such. It’s a mish mash of lore & mechinics

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I actually think the idea of “what makes this universe cool” is what made Scarlet happen in the first place. Wrong move entirely, even if she’d been human.

This may be a matter of bad communication, but I think we’re sorta thinking the same thing but with diff labels. I think Scarlet was more of a “I think this is cool & awesome & I’m gonna make her great” with disregard to the rest of the universe.

Less “I” and more “we” in that, and we probably will agree a bit.

Nah.. I started noticing this a year ago when I started seeing lots of the ambient dialog between men & women always have some bizzarre 1-upmanship, insulting, mockery or the like.

Let’s be fair – it’s the only way they can do it and not get called on it. Do it to males? Heh, funny. Do it to women? Misogynistic pigs writing the game.

I actually blame more society for that double-standard than the writers. Political correctness is currently way overboard everywhere.

In terms of LS I think there is strong evidence that there a feminist slant.. I don’t know how you could even give a ounce of proof otherwise. the only male in the group is dumped by his girlfriend, living under the shadow of his mom, whines more than a Norn generally does, plays 2nd to Rox & get ribbed & by her for being dumped. It’s just too much in 1 direction. He’s not horrible but there is a theme. I’m sorry, but there are too many “coincidences” to say it’s not a theme of some sort. Especially when I found that Anita had actually visited Anet.

Oh boy do we have to untangle this knot here.

- He’s not living under the shadow of his mother, except maybe in our heads. All norn have to prove their own legends, I’m relatively sure it’s been said. They don’t care who’s your father/mother in terms of whether that makes you anything . . . you need to do something to get noticed. I know I ran across this before, and I definitely know I saw the start of that over in GW1 with “Bear Club For Men” and the line following that.

- Braham got dumped but that was also the catalyst to get him to decide “heck with this, I’m going to go out into the world”. Which is important for the character to grow at all. If he hadn’t been dumped, he would have had to dump her instead.

- He’s young. Everyone whines at that age. But if you’re talking about the sulking over Rox’s potential to leave for the Stone Warband? His best friend just said they were leaving and would come back “when they could”, but he’s somewhat aware there’s an unlikely chance she will. Yes, he’s bitter about it.

- He doesn’t play second fiddle to Rox until his leg gets broken. Which was his own darn fault for basically hurrying to take out Scarlet and not thinking she still had an ace. (Honestly, everyone thinking she didn’t have something was really dropping the ball.) He’s generally fairly good at holding his own until then.

Really, what you have here is a young buck who thinks he can make a name for himself just by trying and learning it’s not that simple. You can see it as picking on him, I see it as learning through the lumps that becoming a legend isn’t easy.

I mean, unless you’re Gwen the Goremonger.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You did turn any character into cliche by writing the way I did, when describing the “B Iconic” group. You did it blatantly, and knowingly, and I did that to prove it doesn’t mean anything.

No I said that everything is cliche. It’s just that I think the problems with GW2 characters are more egregious.

I disagree there’s one set of characters worse off than the other. Both have incredible problems with either get overlooked or dwelled on.

Yeah I played War in Kryta, but to be fair I didn’t pay much attention, though I’d hardly call that an impressive feat. The only reason they needed it was that they couldn’t get help from Ascalon at the time. EotN they were more important.

Yes, except help from Ascalon was never coming. Never coming.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Caladbolg? There’s a good case for it not being a weapon so much as a vehicle for energy to purify the Artesian Waters.

That’s even worse! the Sylvari can cleans Dragon corruption with a weapon they made? Also it’s an extremely powerful weapon.

I’m not entirely sure the sylvari made it as much as it was grown from the Pale Tree for one purpose and one alone: to be taken into Orr to purify it, and then its power is spent.

I wasn’t that impressed with it. Elementalists summon more impressive greatswords, repeatedly.

Them being the moral paragons…

Except a lot of that doesn’t hold up as a racial ability and is pretty much attached to only one sylvari or two at most.

- Moral paragons started way back with Ventari the pacifist centaur, but even so most of what the tablet is said to have imprinted is comparable to some things said by Dwayna.

- The sylvari are not unique in the connections to the mists, as the norn have Havrouns who walk into it and can do much more than the Dream can.

- We’re not sure about “demigod” exactly, but not alone in that either since there was Baelfire’s lil trick too. As for “seeing the future”, that’s a known function of the Mists – the trick to that is, it’s not always the future but merely a possible future.

- We witnessed them fight back the corruption from claiming the Artesian Waters, but Orr is still tainted and “it will be a while before we can see real progress”. I suspect that sort of reversal is possible since the Forgotten are known to have some means of doing . . . something . . . to turn a dragon champion into a neutral party.

- All races have the potential for being attuned to magic, but in all seriousness it seems humanity has the strongest power of it when the Six Gods are active. Following that, asura can make mechanisms which can do almost anything with enough technobabble to make Voyager writers stare in awe.

- They are the only race where some are born with a destiny, but they also have the choice to not do it. Every other race also lacks the compulsion to do such things and as such . . . free will rather than preordained destiny. At least, that’s what you’re supposed to believe.

- The Priory Magister Sieran is not nearly as kittenhe appears to be, which is what my inductee started realizing right after they went to work. She’s learned (none who are in the Priory at Magister rank aren’t, it should be said) but she really doesn’t put things together quickly.

- As for “they only use it for ambient NPCs”. . . . that’s why they’re ambient NPCs instead of heroes to follow. Major NPCs are the ones who overcome the shortcomings or fall so deep into them it defines them. That’s what makes them important enough to include.

I’m sorry, it’s just not the same to say: Yeah but Asura are used as a plot device when they need an answer. It’s more just a device. & devices just come from convenient places. You could have the anti-corruption magic of the Sylvari take place of any/most important devices.

And you could, if they wanted to, use the Six Gods . . . oh wait, we had Grenth’s avatar actually spell out for us where we needed to go with Caladbolg for it to actually work. So, yeah, even the human’s special things made a difference.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You cannot write out asura, because they control the gate network, and produce the most effective anti-dragon weapons.

they only made that with Sylvari Anti-Corruption magic.

That’s not what it was made from, it was made presuming all dragon energy shares particular signatures and a weapon could be designed to counter it. This was almost entirely what Zojja was working on after the Crucible of Eternity showed her it was possible to carefully mix dragon energies for multiple states of corruption. This line of research belongs entirely to the asura.

I dunno in GW1 we could hop around without gates. I don’t know how much of a difference the gates make outside of fractals & such. It’s a mish mash of lore & mechinics

They never explained map travel lore-wise in the first game, and now they did through the waypoint network. But the significant difference is the ability of a gate to allow something large to be moved through it rather than what one person can carry through a waypoint travel.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Less “I” and more “we” in that, and we probably will agree a bit.

meh, the visions is what’s important.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Let’s be fair – it’s the only way they can do it and not get called on it. Do it to males? Heh, funny. Do it to women? Misogynistic pigs writing the game.

While I 100% agree, it doesn’t make it any less biased. & it’s pretty rampant in this game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- He’s not living under the shadow of his mother……

-I guess can kinda see this.
-catalyst are what you write them to be. it would be fine if wasn’t used by Rox to make fun of him or if it were something more substantial. it’s honestly the weakest catalyst of the whole group? He got dumped? that’s his story, really? Rox is going for an epic kill to join the most powerful Charr in the army, the Humans are investigating an epic illusion & its the guy that got dumped? weak.
- pretty sure Rox is younger or very close in age & she’s not whiny. & Norn of all people should NOT be whiny. Dude, the little boy in the lodge who gets the Elk head is more adventurous & less whiny.
- sorry, but I disagree. he follows her around all the time constantly saying “we should be buddies, need help, can i follow you?” while she all but focuses on her mission. It’s very not Norn & totally secondary.

All of it together points in 1 direction. I don’t see a "young buck who thinks he can make a name for himself " at all. I don’t know that he talks about his secific legend at all. I know he refers to it in general & talks about protecting that village, but 90% of the time he just wants to know if he can help Rox complete her mission.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I disagree there’s one set of characters worse off than the other.

It may be a matter of taste & what sorts of issues ruin it more.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yes, except help from Ascalon was never coming. Never coming.

But that’s beside the point. I’m saying that it wasn’t “Asuras are the key”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Except a lot of that doesn’t hold up as a racial ability and is pretty much attached to only one sylvari or two at most.

whaaaaa? like every ambient Sylvari is so nice & pure & sweet & truthful & giving & innocent.. makes me wanna puke.. ok we get it, they are better than us.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The sylvari are not unique in the connections to the mists, as the norn have Havrouns who walk into it and can do much more than the Dream can.

The Havrouns can kill Svanir in a mists copy of where they’re standing. Its more about talking to the spirits.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

As for “seeing the future”, that’s a known function of the Mists – the trick to that is, it’s not always the future but merely a possible future.

I don’t know anyone who did it in an even remotely accurate way other than the Pale Tree.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We witnessed them fight back the corruption from claiming the Artesian Waters…

The mere fact that the Sylvari can inherently, in some way, cleans corruption is monumental.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

All races have the potential for being attuned to magic, but in all seriousness it seems humanity has the strongest power of it when the Six Gods are active

I would agree with that, but they actively removed them on purpose.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

As for “they only use it for ambient NPCs”. . . . that’s why they’re ambient NPCs instead of heroes to follow.

That is all meaningless when trying to evaluate weather naivete is really something they stuck with. I think they wanted to go with at the start then backed out when they found how hard it was to make a character.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Awe had Grenth’s avatar actually spell out for us where we needed to go with Caladbolg for it to actually work

You can’t compare the power of that sword & an instruction manual for it’s use.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s not what it was made from, it was made presuming all dragon energy shares particular signatures and a weapon could be designed to counter it..

I’m gonna have to believe you, but I thought if you followed all the splits in the pact Orr story that you could see multiple sources of magic & technology that lead to that & not just a singular line.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the significant difference is the ability of a gate to allow something large to be moved through it rather than what one person can carry through a waypoint travel.

Yeah, but they talk about the difficulty of doing that. you can’t just Asura gate as much at you want as often as you want. & not just price wise.

Chris.3290:

There needed to be explanation(s) as to the impotence of the pact and why the PC is not able to call down tanks, choppers, and massive air firepower against Scarlet’s forces.

Premise: The representatives of the three orders cannot agree on the next target. During this Trahearne stays devoted to his Wyld Hunt; the restoration of Orr, essentially shirking his duties as Marshall.
The Order of Whispers demands that Kralkatorrik be the first target; so that the order can hope to pursue it’s ancient feud with Palawa Joko. The other orders, feel differently and with the continued silence from the Marhsall, the orders go their separate ways.

This is an interesting idea, but I think it would be far better suited to have the argument between the five races.

The Pact could dispute which dragon to fight, but at the end of the day it’s just an academic exercise. Sure, the Priory may care a bit more about breaking Kralkatorric in order to secure the Tomb of Primeval Kings and the Order of Whispers may want the destroyers annihilated to secure an alliance with the Tengu, but at the end of the day they want the same thing. They’re just bickering about the order.

For the races, the choice is far more real. People are dying. Soldiers are being slaughtered on the Brand, homesteads are falling to the Icebrood, Destroyers are churning in the depths. The beleaguered races of Tyria are drowning under a multitude of threats, and some imbecilic salad with a shiny tree blade thinks they should contribute arms and equipment to go save other people on the opposite side of the continent! What a load of bullskritt!

Every single race has a good reason to say “No, my problem is more important than your problem”, and that’s exactly the nature of mortalkind. And this argument goes deep, unearthing racial biases, old grudges, lingering bigotry, and the ideals of each race pitted against one another. It’s the pure and uncut stuff of political thriller gold, but we won’t sink our teeth into it if the Pact keeps doing their G.I. Joe routine against every single threat.

I like your idea of a dispute and do think it would help, but we can go deeper!

cheshirefox.7026:

anyone else get an impression that Shriketalon is Elliot from flight of the phoenix?

……In that I’m looking at a wreck and saying it can be rebuilt…

…Or that my actual “experience” is just a facsimile of the real thing which calls my competence into question?

….Actually, both might work.

lakdav.3694:

Additionally:
I dont know how stories are written at Anet, or any other game developer company. However, through actually roleplaying, i came to learn that the best and most believable story comes out from interactions of different ideas.

One writer takes the side of one character/faction/area, and another writer takes the other side, through their interactions a genuine believable story is born.

What does that mean: Every relevant person should have someone in the writing team who specificly considers how that person would react to everything going around in the Living Story. Every writer must consider how their assigned characters or factions would react to both the Living Story, AND the reactions of the characters/factions of the other writer’s.
Not one writer writing one story, and another writing the next in line.

This is a very astute idea.

While it doesn’t seem like one character per writer would work due to simple logistics, they should definitely have a Great Big List Of Everybody Important which impacts the storytelling right from the concept phase. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and Tyria’s different organizations and nations are all influencing one another. Every plot should include notes about who cares, who ignores it, who tries to influence the outcome and who comes running in to save the day.

’Cause as previous posters have said, the Seraph should have been on that toxic tower like bees on a floral arrangement competition. The Norn should be leading great hunts and the Charr legions rolling out the big guns against the Molten Alliance, not rolling over and letting some random rag tag heroes handle it.

Every narrative action has an equally dramatic reaction.

Terazeal.1976:

My one wish is this: stop trying to tell character-based stories in an MMO; it just doesn’t work. Instead of putting the story in the form of a character or collection of characters one has to stick to in order to progress, rather tell a setting-based story built into the game world itself. This works far better in an open-world non-linear game in my opinion. Of course, there are still going to be some NPCs that are more important than others, leaders of factions and so forth, but making those, or any other specific characters, the sole focus and/or conduit of the story is a fool’s errand. A legion of small(but still well done) characters is always going to do a better job of fleshing out a world than a handful of titanic personalities.

Hmm. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately after the second or third page of this thread, and I’m coming to the same conclusion.

You’re absolutely right about a legion of characters concept. At its core, one big problem with the ending of the story was that our player character has absolutely zero reason to go to the Dead End bar. We killed a dragon. We lead the Pact. We have warbands or families, an entire college throwing us accolades or sagas written in our name (or a bunch of freeloaders hanging out in our shrub home, drinking our fermented nectar. Poor sylvari). I don’t mean to sound snobbish, but we “The Player Character” are slightly above this group of biconic misfits in the grand hierarchy of Tyria.

Doesn’t mean we can’t like them, but we could be visiting our old friend Faren, helping Ellen and Magnus rebuild, checking on the numerous refugees who tugged our heartstrings with their stories, or conferring with our Pact colleagues or racial mentors about the next course of action. Oh, who am I kidding, we’d all be hanging out with Job-o-tron, but that’s not the point…

The only narrative reason we’ve been following the biconics is because the writers like the biconics. They’re the only thing on TV, so all we get is their story. And that is not how it should be.

I think your idea is very good. A larger cast would allow us to meet more people, witness more narratives, encounter more examples of different facets of the races and peoples of Tyria. It allows different groups of characters to interact with each other so that they have interesting dialogue that touches on fresh parts of their character and doesn’t grow stale. And best of all, it means that everyone can find some characters they love, even if they don’t show up quite as much as they might like.

We should have an army of Job-o-trons. And also a lot of characters with the same character development method as Job-o-tron, too. But keep the army.

I’m tinkering with something along this idea, but it will take a while longer before its ready. Be back soon.

I totally agree with the OP that the biggest point the writers should work at is making sure the Living world makes the Living Story, and not the other way around like it is now. Nothing in the world is alive, because nothing in the world influences the story. We want to see race politics, rivalry, jealousy, intrigue, and i agree that THE way to do that is get rid off the pact.

The pact is this organisation, better than anything else, that hangs over all the nation’s heads, making it impossible to have thi level of intrigue. Because of that I advice and beg, make the countries/races fight the ED’s. And don’t let them have each other’s back all the time, that’s a kid’s story. Let them turn their backs on each other etc etc etc. intrigue is key imo, and frankly the story, how much i love(d) it, misses alot of it

BY THE 9 (Yes Abbadon, Dhumm and Mezies included) GODS! This is a really good post, it’s really well done. I agree, this is an excellent post. Anet (and its writers in particular) would do well to pay very close attention to the issues raised here. I wish they could have listened to player feedback more carefully while the Living Story was still in progress.

THANK YOU better words could not be express its EXACTLY for me whats been happening! We have a new leading director for the writing crew!

Arena Net, give players what they want don’t make the same mistake that Final Fantasy 14 did. Don’t get too enthralled by your own thoughts of your well deserve glory, like they did, they learn and made a HUGE comeback… you can too.

Shriektalon, you are awesome! You’ve summed up the problems with the living story with a great deal of creativity and passion. I’ve read your previous story post and thought they hit exactly what I had expected, but did not get from the living story.

Number 13 in opening post really hits the spot for me. I really should not have to scour the web to find a blog from a developer with a short story explaining what happened in game or prior to the scenario presented… when the medium is the GAME. The old adage that everyone learned in school of “show don’t tell” comes to mind here. If it takes more time to create cinematics, characters, etc, we understand. Every one of your players is here because we are passionate about the game in one way or another. If we weren’t, we wouldn’t be playing this game. Please utilize the medium as that is what every one of us experiences. The short stories are nice, but they should not be utilized as an explanation of what is going on. Show us why Scarlet became who she was using cutscenes, or even a flashback mission like the Bonus Missions in GW1.

In addition to everything that has been said, it would be really interesting if we had concurrent events that didn’t tie directly into each other. The dynamic events system is the perfect vehicle for this, so introduce some new dynamic events into the system to make the living world come more alive. There is a ton of story potential just with the random NPCs that are sitting at the renown hearts and current dynamic events that just endlessly repeat themselves. Give us a reason to care about them other than gather five apples or kill twenty centaurs to finish the event. Bring them to life and tell us a good story. If you don’t want these stories to interfere with the rest of the map, then we can utilize the instancing system even.

Good stories don’t have to be earth shattering, change-the-world stories. One of my favorite series of sidequests in GW1 dealt with Lazarus the Dire and the former White Mantle Justiciar Naveed. In five short connected sidequests, you told Naveed’s tragic tale and his ultimate sacrifice. This is the level of storytelling that I want to see again. It was laser focused on Naveed and while the outcome had an effect on the future (hint, hint) ultimately it was not about changing-the-world. This was the story of one man’s fate and his acceptance of it. You guys made me care about Naveed. Let us care about the NPCs in GW2 as well, because right now I barely care about Jennah, Logan, Rytlock, Marjory, Braham, Taimi, etc and these are the “main” characters of the game.

I agree with everything OP said. There are a lot of faults that need to be addressed, but I get the feeling that you guys already know what to do and are working on it now.

As for scarlet, I kinda felt sad for her. I loved how crazy her character was yet the way she went really didn’t do her any justice. I had a lot of theories about her.
At one point I thought she was jealous of the pale tree. She had an obsession with creating things, and I felt that was her way to compensate for the fact that she could never create anything from herself. Maybe she just wished to be a mother?
Then at other times I thought she just wanted to be free. To be freed of the pale tree only to be enslaved by a dragon was a very sad thing to think about.

So when Scarlet asked the other characters if they wanted to know why, I was really happy…only for it to be crushed… I was angry for the whole day after that.

I guess what I’m saying is that I wish for all area’s of the characters to be explored, rather than brushed off just because its easier. I want to be emotionally attached to characters more, even the villains. I mean the idea that Marjory could have been dead really didn’t interest me until I saw Kasmeer’s anger, when I should have felt something way before then.

I wish you guys luck in the next living story, and please give me a crazy villain.

I think the most important things there from the OP are:

1. The world being at a stand still around the occurrences, and the history of bigger events , like the forming of the Pact, the character being the commander. It really feels like add-ons to the movement of the world, without there being any interaction with eachother. even all the dragon factions are far apart from eachother and they don’t interact. I could totally imagine the sons of svanir clashing with Crystal minions.

2. Not leaving plot holes in the game, to fix them with things outside the game. I don’t mind side stories about seemingly uncorrelated information in the game. But if something OUTSIDE the game is needed to explain what happens in the game itself then that is silly.

3. I really think the story needs to tie in both personal story and living story in one. And giving options to players to make important choices and changes are needed in a gaming environment.

Let us fail at something like defeating a dragon champion, or maybe if we actually defeat it, then the story progresses differently. I found the voting for which captain to be really nice, and unique and felt like we had some influence on the world. That’s something that i really liked.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SilverShadow.3021:

+1
Seems like Anet has replaced most of its story writers, because in GW1 story was quite good whereas in GW2’s Living Story it’s (imo) horrible.

They both had good moments but as a whole?

Eh, not really. All six versions of story (four for GW1 and two for GW2) were serviceable but not awesome. Riddled with cliches, predictable, and just strong enough to tie things together. Especially Prophecies and Factions.

Personally I liked the Nightfall storyline, it really sucked me in.
In my experience it is Nightfall > EotN & Factions > Prophecies.

Prophecies was a little bit lacking in my opinion but on par with GW2 main plot.
And for me the LS is at least10 times worse than the GW2 main plot.

SilverShadow.3021:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SilverShadow.3021:

+1
Seems like Anet has replaced most of its story writers, because in GW1 story was quite good whereas in GW2’s Living Story it’s (imo) horrible.

They both had good moments but as a whole?

Eh, not really. All six versions of story (four for GW1 and two for GW2) were serviceable but not awesome. Riddled with cliches, predictable, and just strong enough to tie things together. Especially Prophecies and Factions.

Personally I liked the Nightfall storyline, it really sucked me in.
In my experience it is Nightfall > EotN & Factions > Prophecies.

Prophecies was a little bit lacking in my opinion but on par with GW2 main plot.
And for me the LS is at least10 times worse than the GW2 main plot.

That’s about how I rate it too, honestly. But I also count Beyond (War in Kryta, Winds of Change, Hearts of the North) as being just below Nightfall. It didn’t draw me in quite as well but it was fun and had more attention paid to it.

And yes, Prophecies is almost exactly how GW2’s personal storyline/Living Story was for me. “It has decent moments but lacks polish enough to stand out.”

All of my love for your explanations of why the story was bad needs to be improved. You are absolutely and completely right.