Guild Wars 2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The only reason why people hated Togo, Mhenlo, and Rurik were due to mechanics – them running off and dying, forcing the party to restart the entire mission.

The hate on Kormir, however, comes from the story, not (entirely or mostly) the mechanics.

You are wrong.

Instead of typing 10 paragraphs…

Fighting for your life and fate of the world only to look back and see dingbat Kormir twirling her hair.
this

Trahearne does the exact same thing. Not mechanical you say?

• Rurik was an oblivious rich boy.
• Togo was an annoying creepy do-gooder.
• Mhenlo was world scholar snob that was doing you a “favor”.
  Certainly more than simple mechanics.

If you’re defending Kormir and Trahearne then thank god you do not write for Anet.

Odyssey.2613:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The only reason why people hated Togo, Mhenlo, and Rurik were due to mechanics – them running off and dying, forcing the party to restart the entire mission.

The hate on Kormir, however, comes from the story, not (entirely or mostly) the mechanics.

You are wrong.

Instead of typing 10 paragraphs…

Fighting for your life and fate of the world only to look back and see dingbat Kormir twirling her hair.
this

Oh god that video is terrible. Not to mention inaccurate for the sake of beating the joke into the ground with a fish. And not a useful one, a dead smelly one.

• Rurik was an oblivious rich boy.
• Togo was an annoying creepy do-gooder.
• Mhenlo was world scholar snob that was doing you a “favor”.
  Certainly more than simple mechanics.

Tahlkora was the oblivious rich person, not Rurik. Rurik actually got off his rear and tried to do stuff as opposed to his father who just stood still and tried ordering the tide not to come in.

Togo’s worst quality was his voice, which is the only thing coming off as creepy. Everything else was mostly okay with regards to the rest of Factions . . . which was pretty terrible. Someone handed Shiro the Idiot Ball and he hung on to it with dear life.

And if that’s what you think the problem was with Mhenlo, then I can’t really help you.

If you’re defending Kormir and Trahearne then thank god you do not write for Anet.

Kormir’s problem, especially later, was how she was coded to be an ally without necessarily being in the party. Hence she didn’t attack and wasn’t attacked, which was a rather significant problem in earlier campaigns. Then they fixed the structure in EOTN where they would auto-revive and not immediately fail missions, without going back and throwing that into the earlier campaigns.

Her problem was she was coded to behave like a useless twit. And so . . . people latch on to that.

Trahearne’s problem is the story doesn’t help his case at all, and then moves too fast to really properly develop him. And the fact he’s not played by a person means he has the same problems as almost any NPC ally in awareness and targeting.

GW2’s story is one of its strengths. Lets hope that it can be continued in a way that expands our gameplay and replayable content options.

Templar.3418:

Need a strong male character. All the ones we currently have seem to be wusses….

He should be a tragic hero that is kittened off and full of conviction! Complex!

Sounds somewhat generic but I’m sure he could be molded into something great.

Anyway…Welcome and good luck. :P

omg! 100% this!! we have no strong male characters. Currently all males characters are being dominated by females or are just pathetic! can you please fix this I beg you!

please put this game back on the right path and give us a strong male lead. Just one or maybe two? One dark and aloof and one loud and brazen with a quick wit.

Thobek.1730:

Templar.3418:

Need a strong male character. All the ones we currently have seem to be wusses….

He should be a tragic hero that is kittened off and full of conviction! Complex!

Sounds somewhat generic but I’m sure he could be molded into something great.

Anyway…Welcome and good luck. :P

omg! 100% this!! we have no strong male characters. Currently all males characters are being dominated by females or are just pathetic! can you please fix this I beg you!

please put this game back on the right path and give us a strong male lead. Just one or maybe two? One dark and aloof and one loud and brazen with a quick wit.

. . . if you think that’s what’s wrong with the story, then I’m sorry. I’m so sorry.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Thobek.1730:

Templar.3418:

Need a strong male character. All the ones we currently have seem to be wusses….

He should be a tragic hero that is kittened off and full of conviction! Complex!

Sounds somewhat generic but I’m sure he could be molded into something great.

Anyway…Welcome and good luck. :P

omg! 100% this!! we have no strong male characters. Currently all males characters are being dominated by females or are just pathetic! can you please fix this I beg you!

please put this game back on the right path and give us a strong male lead. Just one or maybe two? One dark and aloof and one loud and brazen with a quick wit.

. . . if you think that’s what’s wrong with the story, then I’m sorry. I’m so sorry.

don’t be sorry, I know there is a lot wrong with the story but this just one thing that really annoys me. And instead of attacking how bad the other characters are I thought it best to focus on bringing a new likable male lead.

Odyssey.2613:

• Rurik was an oblivious rich boy.
• Togo was an annoying creepy do-gooder.
• Mhenlo was world scholar snob that was doing you a “favor”.

Rurik was not oblivious. If anyone in Ascalon’s leadership was oblivious, it was Adelbern who – unlike Rurik- did not realize they were fighting a losing battle. Rurik tried to be optimistic while remaining realistic, which is a good leadership quality to have (recognize defeat to save lives, but keep a positive outlook (“we can survive in Kryta!”) to keep morale high). And his status really didn’t alter his personality anymore than just him being a leader figure – he could have been a commoner that was a captain in the army, and this wouldn’t affect much of his story. Tahlkora is far more of a “oblivious rich boy” than Rurik will ever be – as was Lo Sha from Factions (though his story focus was beyond minimal).

What you say for Togo and Mhenlo I don’t see, so you’ll either have to point it out to me or I’ll just label it as subjective opinion.

You’re making statements, but in your “I won’t put 10 paragraphs up” you completely neglect to point out why your statements hold weight. As it seems to me, you’re just bashing for the sake of bashing – which is what the Kormir video you posted, which is beyond inaccurate for the sake of a bad joke as Tobias said, does.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kormir’s problem, especially later, was how she was coded to be an ally without necessarily being in the party. Hence she didn’t attack and wasn’t attacked, which was a rather significant problem in earlier campaigns. Then they fixed the structure in EOTN where they would auto-revive and not immediately fail missions, without going back and throwing that into the earlier campaigns.

Her problem was she was coded to behave like a useless twit. And so . . . people latch on to that.

You forgot that she bodyblocked players – which was especially annoying in the final mission, where you have a thin path to get to Abaddon’s vulnerable point with a limited time to both do damage and get away from taking damage.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Trahearne’s problem is the story doesn’t help his case at all, and then moves too fast to really properly develop him. And the fact he’s not played by a person means he has the same problems as almost any NPC ally in awareness and targeting.

Points to the underline. A major problem with the entire GW2 story – personal story, and Season 2 (arguably Season 1 too, but at the same time there were points that were drawn out which were hated much more than the rushing feeling of plots).

A major issue that the main story of GW2 has is pacing. Some elements are passed by way too fast, without any proper development to them (such as all the deaths in Chapter 7 and 8 – ORIGINAL chapter 7 and 8 – of the PS; leading players to feel a “why should I care about NPCs?” feeling; this came about again with Belinda, who was so poorly developed before her death that it was painfully obvious she was meant to die from the second time of three we met her), and then others – like Scarlet’s only-able-to-get-away-with-things-because-of-idiot-ball plot concept – was drawn out too long.

Thobek.1730:

don’t be sorry, I know there is a lot wrong with the story but this just one thing that really annoys me. And instead of attacking how bad the other characters are I thought it best to focus on bringing a new likable male lead.

You’re going to have to explain to me how “no strong male lead harms the story” – as that’s what you’re basically saying – does not sound sexist at all. Or how it’s true.

I’m pretty sure that’s what Tobias meant by feeling sorry for you, though I can easily be wrong there, so I’ll just be blunt about it with what I mean.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kormir’s problem, especially later, was how she was coded to be an ally without necessarily being in the party. Hence she didn’t attack and wasn’t attacked, which was a rather significant problem in earlier campaigns. Then they fixed the structure in EOTN where they would auto-revive and not immediately fail missions, without going back and throwing that into the earlier campaigns.

Her problem was she was coded to behave like a useless twit. And so . . . people latch on to that.

You forgot that she bodyblocked players – which was especially annoying in the final mission, where you have a thin path to get to Abaddon’s vulnerable point with a limited time to both do damage and get away from taking damage.

Wouldn’t know about that, I played Ranger main so I didn’t have an issue with body-blocking

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Trahearne’s problem is the story doesn’t help his case at all, and then moves too fast to really properly develop him. And the fact he’s not played by a person means he has the same problems as almost any NPC ally in awareness and targeting.

Points to the underline. A major problem with the entire GW2 story – personal story, and Season 2 (arguably Season 1 too, but at the same time there were points that were drawn out which were hated much more than the rushing feeling of plots).

A major issue that the main story of GW2 has is pacing. Some elements are passed by way too fast, without any proper development to them (such as all the deaths in Chapter 7 and 8 – ORIGINAL chapter 7 and 8 – of the PS; leading players to feel a “why should I care about NPCs?” feeling; this came about again with Belinda, who was so poorly developed before her death that it was painfully obvious she was meant to die from the second time of three we met her), and then others – like Scarlet’s only-able-to-get-away-with-things-because-of-idiot-ball plot concept – was drawn out too long.

Agreed, the pacing is still a serious problem.

Thobek.1730:

don’t be sorry, I know there is a lot wrong with the story but this just one thing that really annoys me. And instead of attacking how bad the other characters are I thought it best to focus on bringing a new likable male lead.

You’re going to have to explain to me how “no strong male lead harms the story” – as that’s what you’re basically saying – does not sound sexist at all. Or how it’s true.

I’m pretty sure that’s what Tobias meant by feeling sorry for you, though I can easily be wrong there, so I’ll just be blunt about it with what I mean.

No, I’m sorry because there is a lot worse with how the story is handled than gender roles.

There are characters who come in and disappear with no real point other than to exist. The mentors are of the “obvious sacrificial mentor” type, and two of the three are downright annoying with their habits and personality. The first half has some things set up which go nowhere as the second half moves on to fighting Zhaitan. Everything moves so fast, that when you get promoted in your chosen organization it doesn’t feel earned, merely thrown to you as a condolence for your mentor being lost (“Hey now we have an open spot, you can move up now”). The Pact doesn’t have a lot of establishing going on when it should take longer to gel and get in motion with three orders trying to figure out how to play nice with each other.

The “fact” there’s no strong male character or “likable” male lead? That’s small potatoes. I’d say it’s more a problem how nobody seems to like any of the leads we have.

It’s been a while, but from memory, doesn’t the final promotion come at the end of the racial sympathy arc, not when the mentor dies? (Sure, you don’t have the final promotion for long before the mentor death, but you do get it beforehand.)

The impression I had was that the PC was essentially being fast-tracked because the order recognised that this was not a typical recruit – you’d already made a name for yourself by the end of the arc in which you join an order, if not at the beginning. I suspect that the only reason they don’t induct you in at the second or even third rank to begin with is that they want to make sure you’re a good fit for the organisation’s methods and ideals before they grant you additional responsibility – but consider that most members of the third rank gained it through more prosaic means. After all, the much-loved Tybalt reached Lightbringer rank as an analyst and inventor without seeing any field work up until we meet him, and there are probably Priory Magisters that likewise reached that rank without fighting – someone who’s already performed a feat such as slaying a lich (sylvari), saving the queen (human) or saving the Priory itself (norn) might put up with working under such a person once for their induction, but is such a person really going to be happy with continuing to be regarded as a cadet (first rank) or common soldier (second rank) for any real length of time?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A recent thought I had about story and character interaction is that I think there’s too much focus on the characters in GW2.

Look at GW1, how much effort was put into focus on the individual characters? Very little, overall. And just about none in the main storyline – there was some, like the revelation of Tahlkora’s family, or Dunkoro’s son, or the fighting between Gwen and Pyre. But most of it, especially with Nightfall, happened in side-quests. Just about all of it with Devona and co. happened in side-quests in Prophecies. Yet despite how little focus there was in the main story, people loved Koss and Jurah and Jora and the others.

Which comes to a second fallacy I see in GW2: the lack of side quests that tie into the main story characters. Yes, you have invasion into Orr, you have the dungeons that focus on DE (which weren’t done poorly, narratively speaking), but you have no such side-quests that involve Trahearne, nor the mentors, nor Tonn, nor Apatia, nor the biconics.

I am feeling that the lack of a story-driven side-quest system is hindering GW2 a bit. It is just one of many things that GW1 had that GW2 doesn’t.

There’s already been a beginning implimentation of this. There are a few dynamic events in the open world that trigger by the personal story – either its progress or part of the PS itself. Making events like this to help further the characters narrative, rather than cramming it all into the main plot making it feel like there’s bits of irrelevancy, feels much more proper.

It’s a valid point. I’m not sure how much this is actually the cause of the problems this time around, but the GW1 model there did mean that the ‘main story’ was able to focus more on the world rather than individual characters.

Leah Hoyer.9382:

Thanks for the feedback, folks. I appreciate your comments and will say that consistent, complex, nuanced characters and storytelling are absolutely my goal as well. I’m soaking up all the existing story that I can, via gameplay, wikis, our novels, and lots and lots of conversations with my coworkers who have great insights (and opinions) on our expansive lore. I really love the game and am excited to be a part of it moving forward. Keep the comments coming!

Leah
(now with fancy, red ANet banner)

Are you going to continue going with the feminist flavor they’ve added to the GW story?

DarksunG.9537:

Leah Hoyer.9382:

Thanks for the feedback, folks. I appreciate your comments and will say that consistent, complex, nuanced characters and storytelling are absolutely my goal as well. I’m soaking up all the existing story that I can, via gameplay, wikis, our novels, and lots and lots of conversations with my coworkers who have great insights (and opinions) on our expansive lore. I really love the game and am excited to be a part of it moving forward. Keep the comments coming!

Leah
(now with fancy, red ANet banner)

Are you going to continue going with the feminist flavor they’ve added to the GW story?

Oooh, ooh, loaded question spotted. No matter how she answers, she loses!

DarksunG.9537:

Leah Hoyer.9382:

Thanks for the feedback, folks. I appreciate your comments and will say that consistent, complex, nuanced characters and storytelling are absolutely my goal as well. I’m soaking up all the existing story that I can, via gameplay, wikis, our novels, and lots and lots of conversations with my coworkers who have great insights (and opinions) on our expansive lore. I really love the game and am excited to be a part of it moving forward. Keep the comments coming!

Leah
(now with fancy, red ANet banner)

Are you going to continue going with the feminist flavor they’ve added to the GW story?

If you mean “Are you going to keep treating men and women as equal?”, then I definitely hope so.

If you’re trying to ask anything else, please go re-read the ToS and stop posting here.

Back on topic, I actually think a large part of Trahearne’s problem is the voice acting. He sounds dismissive and arrogant. So even when his lines are innocuous people react badly. Add in some lines that are genuinely dumb and the usual NPC pathing/AI issues, and it’s no wonder people don’t like him. There’s also the way he’s introduced much earlier and more effectively with 1 race but not with all.

Gilosean.3805:

If you mean “Are you going to keep treating men and women as equal?”, then I definitely hope so.

So equal to you is:
Having most interaction between npcs having the female reject, insult, mock or one-up the males who are often depicted as inept, foolish or just plain dumb.
Having the main story cast be almost entirely female with the only male an ineffectual dud whose main story is that he was rejected by a woman & lives under the shadow of his Mom?
Having the main female villain sodomize Lord Farren as a “joke”.
Having the side character Logan we a whipping boy for Jenna & Anise based on Aneise’ laughably illogical “plan”.
Having Anise buy Canach & everyone think it’s not weird at all.
Yeah, that doesn’t sound like a bizarre feminist fantasy at all. You know, if it’s just a coincidence, fine. But that’s way too much consistency to be a coincidence. But I think if the roles were reversed you’d be on this forum burning with righteous indignation. It’s not like I’m asking for them to make it so the men can give birth so they can be “equal”. I’m just sick of see the obvious fantasizing in the writing. It literally is bending the story just to fit it in. Taimi being the only one that can fix the gates? are you kidding me? There must be entire Asuran companies that have been researching & working with gates & dragon energy for decades & the little “cute/sassy/pc” girl is the only one that can fix it & just “happens” to get subverted by the mean ol patriarch? Come on… Finding out that Anita Sarkezian visited Anet a while back just dumped more fuel on the fire. I never had any problem with the females in GW1. I even liked Kormir. But this.. this has nothing to do with “equal”.

Odyssey.2613:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The only reason why people hated Togo, Mhenlo, and Rurik were due to mechanics – them running off and dying, forcing the party to restart the entire mission.

The hate on Kormir, however, comes from the story, not (entirely or mostly) the mechanics.

You are wrong.

Instead of typing 10 paragraphs…

Fighting for your life and fate of the world only to look back and see dingbat Kormir twirling her hair.
this

~snip~

Certainly more than simple mechanics.

If you’re defending Kormir and Trahearne then thank god you do not write for Anet.

Color me lucky then, because I almost always managed to get Kormir to fight with me, with the exception of the missions on Istan.

Same with Trahearne, and I actually don’t mind the monotone so much, it fits his personality.

However, this is entirely off topic and has almost nothing to do with potentially improving the story telling in GW2.

DarksunG.9537:

Gilosean.3805:

If you mean “Are you going to keep treating men and women as equal?”, then I definitely hope so.

So equal to you is:
Having most interaction between npcs having the female reject, insult, mock or one-up the males who are often depicted as inept, foolish or just plain dumb.
Having the main story cast be almost entirely female with the only male an ineffectual dud whose main story is that he was rejected by a woman & lives under the shadow of his Mom?
Having the main female villain sodomize Lord Farren as a “joke”.
Having the side character Logan we a whipping boy for Jenna & Anise based on Aneise’ laughably illogical “plan”.
Having Anise buy Canach & everyone think it’s not weird at all.

. . . about half of that is wrong, one of them is added simply to cause a sensation rather than have any basis, and the last one is ignoring the world lore so you can add another bullet point.

Yeah, that doesn’t sound like a bizarre feminist fantasy at all.

And your post doesn’t sound like you just have an axe to grind.

Here’s the $50 question:

Can a male character do those things as well and not be punished for it? If your answer is ‘yes’ then . . . equality. There we go.

Personally, I view gender equality as me having the right to make fun of a female character and not have someone go “you’re just doing it because she’s a GURL” and have that treated as a valid defense.

There are many problems with the story. This isn’t one of them.

Though if you want to keep adding things to the list, how about Glint being a Sacrificial Female with “death by backstory”, Eir being driven suicidal by two males and an asura who couldn’t stop picking on her , Rox continuing to have it made funny about how she idolizes a superior who talks down to her, and Queen Jennah being not very effective compared to any other leader of the five major races.

And that’s just without digging things up, like how the human storyline has “damsel in distress” played very straight one time, there’s a corrupt (female) Ministry Captain you have to fight, the only one you can save out of the adversarial bandit gang as a street rat is Riot Alice (who might have died in Prosperity anyway later) . . .

Yes, I’m quite sure females have it equally as bad as males in this game.

I was sleep deprived at the time of the post while trying to recall 6+ years ago so I’m sure I was off on things. I will concede to you the Rurik and Talkorah thing. Main difference is I found Talkorah aggreable. She didn’t annoy me. Which I guess is the gold standard for Arenanet characters.

This entire thread is nothing but subjective opinion….
You can list facts and events, but with storytelling and emotions, it is all meaningless without context.
No, the Kormir video is not beyond inaccurate. It has very valid points. I don’t need to write a dissertation on Trahearne and Kormir because the flaws are pretty blatantly effin obvious. To do so is a waste of time. Lore. Mechanical. It doesn’t matter. Arguing over semantics. In the end it is what it is.

Odyssey.2613:

No, the Kormir video is not beyond inaccurate. It has very valid points. I don’t need to write a dissertation on Trahearne and Kormir because the flaws are pretty blatantly effin obvious. To do so is a waste of time. Lore. Mechanical. It doesn’t matter. Arguing over semantics. In the end it is what it is.

. . . yes, the video is indeed inaccurate for the sake of comedy and making the point the author wanted to. I find it amusing as a video (except for the terrible, terrible voicing and animation) but as a treatise on the lore? It’s terrible, one-sided, and malicious with no apology for any of it. It’s not unlike like “Captain Archer Crazypants” that Chuck Sonnenberg loves to work with.

There are valid points which exist for why those two characters are problematic. Exaggerating them for the sake of comedy, and ignoring dissenting points or more importantly any situational qualifiers, is what makes the video terrible.

Anyone could make a video without overplaying every one of the valid points in there, and I would probably not hate the video as much as I do this one. I would disagree, but I wouldn’t loathe seeing it.

I’ll be first in line to start dissecting characters and showing why they’re not as awesome as people remember (Gwen, Koss, Sieran, and Tybalt are high on the list of targets) but I’ll likewise be first in line to point out none of the ones who get slammed really . . . truly . . . deserve the hate they get.

Except Zojja. She can die in a lab accident for all I care.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . about half of that is wrong, one of them is added simply to cause a sensation rather than have any basis, and the last one is ignoring the world lore so you can add another bullet point.

No, it’s not. Just saying it is doesn’t make it true. I agree that last one while it’s it’s not, in lore, “owning” someone it’s a way to make the story artificially have a woman who can control a guy & make him look inept. I mean that story so far is constant manipulation. “to find out if he can do what she needs him to”? He accomplished far more the first time we met him, that’s the most laughably conjured up reason ever.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And your post doesn’t sound like you just have an axe to grind.

just like yours!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Can a male character do those things as well and not be punished for it? If your answer is ‘yes’ then . . . equality. There we go.

Actually, no. When they do it, it’s considered evil & creates victims. It’s a catalyst for female action in this game. I mean they have 2 entire factions where one of the main representations of their evil is hatred of females. Really? why? of all the things to pick, why that? & if you listen to that ambient Svanir dialog (which it seems you don’t listen to much ambient dialog at all) they are portrayed as total idiots. If you had a faction of women that hated men, but acted like dolts & talked amongst each other about how they hate men but want them really bad, you’d get lynched.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Personally, I view gender equality as me having the right to make fun of a female character and not have someone go “you’re just doing it because she’s a GURL” and have that treated as a valid defense.

Yeah well since the game just “happens” to have the vast majority of that “making fun” coming from females toward males your view doesn’t mesh with your argument.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Glint being a Sacrificial Female with “death by backstory”, Eir being driven suicidal by two males and an asura who couldn’t stop picking on her , Rox continuing to have it made funny about how she idolizes a superior who talks down to her, and Queen Jennah being not very effective compared to any other leader of the five major races.

So you’re complaining about Glint being a Martyr? What? That’s what made Snaff cool. Eir being the victim of two stupid men? fits the narrative. They try to make women victims of men & vehicles to show how dumb & inept men can be. Rox’s story is never “made funny”. The story is crafted so everyone specifically feels sympathy toward her. Your character even calls Rytlock to task for it. but nice reversal. Queen Jennah not being effective compared tot he other leaders? Nah. They all do about the same.

I just don’t see the need for most of the female antagonism & “looks how dumb/inept he really is” in the story at all. Why can’t they actually work together & like each other. It’s not about strong women. Varesh was a strong woman. Scarlet was a cartoon female power fantasy. These character’s aren’t Ripley or Nancy Thompson. They are Anita Sarkesians. They are going about “powerful” the wrong way.

I agree there is a lot wrong with the writing, but I do think this is a big issue. It makes pushing these themes more important then just making a character that fits the world.

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . about half of that is wrong, one of them is added simply to cause a sensation rather than have any basis, and the last one is ignoring the world lore so you can add another bullet point.

No, it’s not. Just saying it is doesn’t make it true. I agree that last one while it’s it’s not, in lore, “owning” someone it’s a way to make the story artificially have a woman who can control a guy & make him look inept. I mean that story so far is constant manipulation. “to find out if he can do what she needs him to”? He accomplished far more the first time we met him, that’s the most laughably conjured up reason ever.

She makes him look inept? I just did that mission. He looks impatient with her bullhockey rather than inept – Canach was a rather direct soul, after all. Oh, by the way, it was added a while ago and people seemed okay with Kiel grabbing his billet to put him to use in the Battle for Lion’s Arch.

It’s weird how it’s okay if it’s Kiel, not okay if it’s Anise.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And your post doesn’t sound like you just have an axe to grind.

just like yours!

I’m a ranger, we have tons of throwing axes.

But regardless? No. I just get tired of these particular posts coming up which seem to run the risk of okaying double standards.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Can a male character do those things as well and not be punished for it? If your answer is ‘yes’ then . . . equality. There we go.

Actually, no. When they do it, it’s considered evil & creates victims. It’s a catalyst for female action in this game. I mean they have 2 entire factions where one of the main representations of their evil is hatred of females. Really? why? of all the things to pick, why that? & if you listen to that ambient Svanir dialog (which it seems you don’t listen to much ambient dialog at all) they are portrayed as total idiots. If you had a faction of women that hated men, but acted like dolts & talked amongst each other about how they hate men but want them really bad, you’d get lynched.

Don’t try to put over on me what I do and do not know. And don’t move the argument to being about the Flame Legion or Sons of Svanir. Two reasons why not: it’s not in context of what I was replying to (which was your listing), and it’s a separate matter. That particular thread of argument is enough for its own topic, too, but here goes for a second round at what you posted:

Anything you listed in the post I replied to about what travesties of feminism are visited on the poor male characters is, and has been, normally done without consequence.

Having most interaction between npcs having the female reject, insult, mock or one-up the males who are often depicted as inept, foolish or just plain dumb.
Having the main story cast be almost entirely female with the only male an ineffectual dud whose main story is that he was rejected by a woman & lives under the shadow of his Mom?
Having the main female villain sodomize Lord Farren as a “joke”.
Having the side character Logan we a whipping boy for Jenna & Anise based on Aneise’ laughably illogical “plan”.
Having Anise buy Canach & everyone think it’s not weird at all.

1. Since you so happily brought them up, the Sons of Svanir and Flame Legion both do this. Nobody is burning up the forums complaining about that. They also don’t complain about Lord Faren being an ineffectual, womanizing snob either.

2. Braham is far from ineffectual, and norn culture is demonstrated not to work that way as early as Eye of the North. Try again.

3. No evidence of this having been done. At all. So this is invented for the sake of making your list more sensationalized.

4. Nothing new here, that was happening on the main storyline too, though Logan is a tough topic to tackle. I’ll leave it at this – he’s not nearly as terrible as people make him out to be, much like Koss is not nearly as awesome as people make him out to be.

5. It’s not weird. That’s how Lion’s Arch operates. What’s weird is that thematically it should have been done much earlier to get Canach out of the picture in Season 1. What’s weird is how this is almost like bail money . . . and suddenly it’s objectionable?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Personally, I view gender equality as me having the right to make fun of a female character and not have someone go “you’re just doing it because she’s a GURL” and have that treated as a valid defense.

Yeah well since the game just “happens” to have the vast majority of that “making fun” coming from females toward males your view doesn’t mesh with your argument.

Sure it does. You’re just not paying attention to the different “shades” of mockery. I know you understand it, since you’re demonstrating it in your post.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Glint being a Sacrificial Female with “death by backstory”, Eir being driven suicidal by two males and an asura who couldn’t stop picking on her , Rox continuing to have it made funny about how she idolizes a superior who talks down to her, and Queen Jennah being not very effective compared to any other leader of the five major races.

So you’re complaining about Glint being a Martyr? What? That’s what made Snaff cool. Eir being the victim of two stupid men? fits the narrative.

What made Snaff cool is he died? Now, how does this fit with your idea of the game needing to stop making the male characters treated the way they are . . . and right here at the end you’re saying what makes one of them “cool” is that he died? Seriously? You don’t get that?

They try to make women victims of men & vehicles to show how dumb & inept men can be. Rox’s story is never “made funny”. The story is crafted so everyone specifically feels sympathy toward her. Your character even calls Rytlock to task for it. but nice reversal. Queen Jennah not being effective compared tot he other leaders? Nah. They all do about the same.

You’re half right – Rox’s background story is never made funny. Her superstition? Played for laughs. The continuous attempts during Season One to “earn the right” to talk about induction into the Stone Warband? It stank of a little girl trying to impress a teacher she had a crush on. This was commented on several times, and I know because I responded to that too.

And it’s a constant clamor about how Queen Jennah is “useless” and barely can handle politics well enough for Kryta to take part in anything. Simple rumors were enough to prevent her from going to the summit? Rumors which were so paper-thin and obviously false? Please.

I just don’t see the need for most of the female antagonism & “looks how dumb/inept he really is” in the story at all.

I don’t see the need for a lot of things in the story . . . mostly how asura always seem to have the answer for everything despite their experiments going wrong wind up being responsible for a lot of Dynamic Events and at least one Meta Event. I don’t see the need to invent Mordremoth when we could have gone to Kralk or Jormag, or even Primordius. I don’t see the need for the lack of concern over Primordius, who seems capable of sending minions over a lot of area and is one of the three things causing active climate change in Tyria.

Why can’t they actually work together & like each other. It’s not about strong women. Varesh was a strong woman. Scarlet was a cartoon female power fantasy. These character’s aren’t Ripley or Nancy Thompson. They are Anita Sarkesians. They are going about “powerful” the wrong way.

Varesh was a tool, in the very literal term of the word. She was nothing but the tool to break Abaddon’s prison open. Hey, look, she did nothing but serve a male character until she died, fancy that.

Scarlet had a lot wrong with her, but it’s difficult to call her “female” when the sylvari don’t really have genders at all. What was more wrong with her was how each writing team seemed to have a different idea of how her insanity manifested itself and having it start out as “sylvari Joker” and back off to functionally insane.

I agree there is a lot wrong with the writing, but I do think this is a big issue. It makes pushing these themes more important then just making a character that fits the world.

I disagree with this being the most important issue to consider. I think more important is getting the tone of your story consistent and not introducing hooks you don’t plan to use. Case in point: Demmi Beetlestone. (Also another female character whose identity is nothing without her father’s existence.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s weird how it’s okay if it’s Kiel, not okay if it’s Anise.

Neither is.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And don’t move the argument to being about the Flame Legion or Sons of Svanir

I’m sorry i’m making too much sense that you have to just toss it out.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Anything you listed in the post I replied to about what travesties of feminism are visited on the poor male characters is, and has been, normally done without consequence.

Passive aggressive hyperbole doesn’t make points.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

1. Since you so happily brought them up, the Sons of Svanir and Flame Legion both do this. Nobody is burning up the forums complaining about that. They also don’t complain about Lord Faren being an ineffectual, womanizing snob either.

Because it’s used to make the guys look evil or dumb, not “right” stronger.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

3. No evidence of this having been done. At all. So this is invented for the sake of making your list more sensationalized.

B.S. Farren talks about how she plays rough & he’s in his underwear. Even Wooden Potatoes laughed about how it was suggested that she did something him. But sure, let’s pretend she played 4 square roughly with him.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

4. Nothing new here, that was happening on the main storyline too, though Logan is a tough topic to tackle. I’ll leave it at this – he’s not nearly as terrible as people make him out to be, much like Koss is not nearly as awesome as people make him out to be.

I don’t know what you’re trying to deflect this to, but I never said I don’t like Logan. I actually do like him. But the whole Queen/Anise “you need to control your temper”thing was laughable. that may have been a matter of a badly constructed plot device, but Anise telling the hero of the human armies to shut up was not only out of her jurisdiction, but stupid.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sure it does. You’re just not paying attention to the different “shades” of mockery. I know you understand it, since you’re demonstrating it in your post.

Ok, so you can just explain away everything by just saying insults are “shades of mockery”. I can only take so much of the moving goalposts.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Varesh was a tool, in the very literal term of the word. She was nothing but the tool to break Abaddon’s prison open. Hey, look, she did nothing but serve a male character until she died, fancy that.

Umm.. seriously.. You’re talking about a woman who lead her nation with believable military & political savvy to not only repel an attack of an army, but route them, unlock demons to help her, research her ancestors journey, then near the end when she actually gets possessed (making her a victim of manipulation), you saying the whole character is a tool. You have no idea what Varesh’s story is. most of it is her journey to unlock the secrets that Turai failed to. When you actually know what you’re talking about it makes a difference. It’s also funny you say sylvari are not female then say a god is male.. whateves.

I disagree with this being the most important issue to consider.

Great, cuz I never said that.

I think more important is getting the tone of your story consistent and not introducing hooks you don’t plan to use. Case in point: Demmi Beetlestone. (Also another female character whose identity is nothing without her father’s existence.)

here you demonstrate you’ve completely missed my issue. Every character in the game is “nothing without someone else’s existence” that’s how characters are. I don’t care that Mangonel Gearstrip is nothing without Ballista Geargrind, that’s fine it works & he’s funny. My issue is with a concerted effort of the writers to have a suspicious number of women look smarter, stronger, more right by contrasting/pitting them against men that look dumber, weaker, & evil. It’s a theme. it’s not a handful of things. If they portrayed Anise as evil & manipulative, I could understand her talking down to dudes. But he’s portrayed as “Oh yeah, you go girl. She knows!”

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And don’t move the argument to being about the Flame Legion or Sons of Svanir

I’m sorry i’m making too much sense that you have to just toss it out.

Because it wasn’t part of your post I replied to. You pulled it in to change the argument, and since I wasn’t addressing that . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Anything you listed in the post I replied to about what travesties of feminism are visited on the poor male characters is, and has been, normally done without consequence.

Passive aggressive hyperbole doesn’t make points.

So it only works when you do it? Fun to know.

Because it’s used to make the guys look them look evil or dumb, not “right”.

That’s not why they’re evil, for either of them.

B.S. Farren talks about how she plays rough & he’s in his underwear. Even Wooden Potatoes laughed about how it was suggested that she kitten d him. But sure, let’s pretend she played 4 square roughly with him.

I’m going to bold this so you understand. Nowhere is it said that is what happened, nor is it implied sexual misconduct was done. You could come up with equally non-sexual reasons why he’s stripped down and feels she played “rough”. This is Lord Faren we’re talking about here, the peakitten who loves to preen but can’t back it up. Strip him naked, have the Watchworks push him into the cage . . . and he’s not above adding elaboration, as can be seen elsewhere in the story.

If you’re seeing it there, that’s because you want it to be there. Probably so you can use it as a point in your list rather than come up with something more substantial.

Like the Svanir/Flame Legion thing you should have used there in the first place. Which, again, has little bearing on their attitude of genders as to why they’re evil or the reason they’re shown to be evil. They’re shown to be evil because they don’t respect anyone other than their own, either corrupting or just flat-out destroying anything which they can’t bend to their will. That’s a far more telling thing than “the Flame Legion will not permit females to fight and instead use them for home-side labor” or “the Sons of Svanir admit no female norn to their ranks, due to lingering hate over Jora’s kinslaying”.

I don’t know what you’re trying to deflect this to, but I never said I don’t like Logan. I actually do like him. But the whole Queen/Anise “you need to control your temper”thing was laughable. that may have been a matter of a badly constructed plot device, but Anise telling the hero of the human armies to shut up was not only out of her jurisdiction, but stupid.

. . . he does need to control his emotions, and he does need to shut up and do his duty more than nurse grudges. Anise is the only one who will tell him this because it’s unseemly for the Queen to do it, and Anise is technically above him in station due to being Shining Blade. Anything is in her jurisdiction if it is deemed a threat to the crown, and having a Seraph commander who can’t stop being hotheaded is part of it.

She is right and it’s not put in any other way than to drive it home bluntly, and plainly.

It’s a pity the timing of the first season was problematic because Logan got through that junk at the end of the Personal Story arc. Which ANet decided to try to have happen separate and slightly concurrent, so any development he had was clocked back. Ditto Rytlock and Eir.

Ok, so you can just explain away everything by just saying insults are “shades of mockery”. I can only take so much of the moving goalposts.

Oh my god. You really don’t understand anything about the difference between turning to your friend and making a joke about their injuries and seeing a stranger and going “oh my god you’re in a wheelchair! that’s hilarious”.

What you are implying is it is wrong for a female friend of a male to make fun of them. Ever. Even if there’s no malice. Am I reading you correctly? It’s out of line for one of them to go “god you’re just so stupid” when I mess something up?

1/2

Umm.. seriously.. You’re talking about a woman who lead her nation with believable military & political savvy to not only repel an attack of an army, but route them, unlock demons to help her, research her ancestors journey, then near the end when she actually gets possessed (making her a victim of manipulation), you saying the whole character is a tool.

I’m saying exactly that, yes. Some tools are just wrenches to tighten down a bolt, and others are more complex. Varesh is a tool being used to get the job done, that job being opening up the Realm of Torment. That is the entirety of her goal after routing the Sunspears with summoned demons. (It should be noted the Sunspears were actively winning and holding ground up until the demons were summoned. They retreated out of panic, not because they were overmatched. If they had stood their ground, they could have won.)

You have no idea what Varesh’s story is. most of it is her journey to unlock the secrets that Turai failed to. When you actually know what you’re talking about it makes a difference.

No, most of it is her journey to unleash Abaddon and let him out to have vengeance on the world. Turai tried to Ascend and failed, and his failure is echoed in Prophecies and not Nightfall – he guides the player characters through the steps to Ascend even though he cannot anymore since he died.

You are correct in one thing – whatever Varesh did before the point where Kahyet showed up in Istan and we see them through Tahlkora’s perspective? There’s not much told about it. But that’s not what we’re talking about, are we? We’re talking about the events of Nightfall.

It’s also funny you say sylvari are not female then say a god is male.. whateves.

Abaddon is male. Lyssa is two females. Grenth is male. Balthazar is male. Dwayna is female (and bore a child). Menzies is male. Dhuum is male. Melandru is female. That Dwayna bore a child says they do have biological distinction between genders. The sylvari do not, since they cannot reproduce themselves. They are offspring of the Pale Tree, which are generated from . . . apparently self-pollenation.

Therefore, the gods have genders. The sylvari do not, they merely emulate it.

My issue is with a concerted effort of the writers to have a suspicious number of women look smarter, stronger, more right by contrasting/pitting them against men that look dumber, weaker, & evil. It’s a theme. it’s not a handful of things. If they portrayed Anise as evil & manipulative, I could understand her talking down to dudes. But he’s portrayed as “Oh yeah, you go girl. She knows!”

Well, except for Mad King Thorn who got one over on almost everyone. And Tixx. And Captain Magnus. And Canach. And Rytlock. And Forgal.

Though I’ll give you Tybalt as dumber and weaker.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it’s a constant clamor about how Queen Jennah is “useless” and barely can handle politics well enough for Kryta to take part in anything. Simple rumors were enough to prevent her from going to the summit? Rumors which were so paper-thin and obviously false? Please.

Because it served the purposes of powerful figures to treat those rumours as “something that needed to be investigated”. In fact, I’d be willing to bet the timing wasn’t a coincidence – they knew the Queen had something important on then, possibly something important that involved foreign allies, and were trying to discredit her in the eyes of those foreign leaders. The rumours didn’t need to hold up in court… they just needed to hold Jennah up in court when she needed to be elsewhere.

I’m going to bold this so you understand. Nowhere is it said that is what happened, nor is it implied sexual misconduct was done. You could come up with equally non-sexual reasons why he’s stripped down and feels she played “rough”. This is Lord Faren we’re talking about here, the peakitten who loves to preen but can’t back it up. Strip him naked, have the Watchworks push him into the cage . . . and he’s not above adding elaboration, as can be seen elsewhere in the story.

We actually SAW what was going on here. Scarlet had Faren in a pot and was going to boil him alive. She probably had him in his ‘Faren panties’ purely because it amused her to have it appear as if Faren was simply going for a swim, but I’d say cooking someone alive counts as ‘playing rough’ without needing a sexual component.

(That said, I would observe that if the genders had been reversed, there probably would have been more of an uproar. I think DarkSunG is seriously overstating the case, but it’s not entirely baseless.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m saying exactly that, yes. Some tools are just wrenches to tighten down a bolt, and others are more complex. Varesh is a tool being used to get the job done, that job being opening up the Realm of Torment. That is the entirety of her goal after routing the Sunspears with summoned demons. (It should be noted the Sunspears were actively winning and holding ground up until the demons were summoned. They retreated out of panic, not because they were overmatched. If they had stood their ground, they could have won.)

If I recall correctly, it was two Blades of Corruption and the Hunger. If we were allowed to fight, a party of 8 PCs could have made mincemeat out of them even without the regiment of archers, even if the Blades were bosses.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Because it wasn’t part of your post I replied to. You pulled it in to change the argument, and since I wasn’t addressing that . . .

it’s exactly what you were addressing. You said your litmus test for equality was “Can a male character do those things as well and not be punished for it?” & I was showing how the game does not stand up to that in many situations. My example of the 2 factions was showing how that it’s extremely a double standard. That attribute is absolutely one of the main things that defines them as evil. If you say “dragon corruption” is the only thing that makes them evil you are completely wrong. Most Sons of Svanir aren’t even corrupted. & the only things they talk about are Jormag & women. If you say that the Svanir hatred of women is not one of their major attributes, I don’t know what to say. you’re just covering your eyes. I mean the story introduces them with Eir telling you: “The Sons of Svanir are close by. We can try talking to them, but they hate anyone who doesn’t serve their dragon…and they utterly despise women.”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

*Nowhere is it said that is what happened, nor is it implied sexual misconduct was done.
If you’re seeing it there, that’s because you want it to be there. Probably so you can use it as a point in your list rather than come up with something more substantial.

So you require Faren to say “Scarlet sexually assaulted me” for it to be implicit? I don’t think Wooden Potatoes (who likes the story, thought that part was funny & give Anet’s writing WAY more of a pass that many people) had an agenda when he came to the same conclusion. I held off judgement until I saw other people responding the same way. It is was it is.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Anise is the only one who will tell him this because it’s unseemly for the Queen to do it

Except she does. In the same scene. & not only does Anise berate him before that, she does it after purposefully stirring things up by making the watchwork look like Rytlcok. Yeah, that’s normal.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Anything is in her jurisdiction if it is deemed a threat to the crown, and having a Seraph commander who can’t stop being hotheaded is part of it.

yeah, that makes sense, lets have queen(the primary defensive objective of the entire army) be a hologram, & they hero of the human armies, the man that’s fought dragons & single handedly done more than any human in the fight against them be out of the loop. So that everyone in the area is defending the wrong target & all their lives are at risk as they try to do so, & then after words, now that everyone is in chaos because they think the queen is dead, berates him for properly responding to save the queen instead of saying “sorry about the deception guys, but I had to hide her”. The logic is so muddled & ham-fistedly contrived it’s like they forcefully twisted the story around just so they could have that scene. I know what they were trying to do with the “i love the queen” thing. I like that idea. But the whole “you’re an idiot & you suck” “yes she’s right” dialog was shoehorned.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Oh my god. You really don’t understand anything about the difference between turning to your friend and making a joke about their injuries and seeing a stranger and going “oh my god you’re in a wheelchair! that’s hilarious”.

You’re insane if you think that all the ambient npc dialog with women & men is playful ribbing. It’s a lot of: kittenbag guy trying to hit on girl, girl makes snide remark as to how pathetic he is. Or selfish Asura man manipulates poor Quagan girl, strong brave woman tells him to lay down the law! Dumb male guard interrupts female medic to get robotron, women tells him to eat his sword & get lost! Gnashblade is a big meanie business man, uh oh here comes the though female Asura to force him to give away his weapons by order of Kiel! it happens over & over & over in the ambient npc dialog. A handful of times, no biggie, but after a while it’s not just happenstance. It has nothing to do with playful ribbing amongst friends. I know it’s culturally considered more acceptable to have men be the butt of jokes, I can’t help but follow that rule myself, but it’s beyond that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

What you are implying is it is wrong for a female friend of a male to make fun of them. Ever. Even if there’s no malice. Am I reading you correctly?

You know you’re reading me completely wrong. but that seems to be how you make “arguments”. You _tell_me what im saying even thought you know it’s wrong, then you attack that hyperbole with passive aggressive superiority. but when your definition of equality is based on who you can insult.. well.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m saying exactly that, yes.

& you’re saying i’m just trying to overblow things & make a point? woooow. I don’t mind that Logan is a “tool” of the queen. That’s his Job. but to characterize him entirely by just saying “there is nothing to his character except the Queen. He’s just a tool” is disingenuous just to make a point.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, most of it is her journey to unleash Abaddon and let him out to have vengeance on the world. Turai tried to Ascend and failed, and his failure is echoed in Prophecies and not Nightfall – he guides the player characters through the steps to Ascend even though he cannot anymore since he died.

Again, you’re demonstrating you have no idea what you’re talking about. Varesh’s entire life was about surpassing her ancestors & unlocking ancient secrets of the crystal desert (which are invariably linked to Abbadon). all of her military training, political savvy & leadership was an obsession, just like Turai. (all this stuff is in the manual) It’s what makes her character work at the start. (whereas you have a wholly unbelievable start for someone like Scarlet “she was born epic & sassy! & got more epic!”) Does she seek out power get manipulated by Abbadon? Yes, that’s the events in nightfall. But the catalyst of her quest is in her ancestry. It’s what makes her cool . You can believe that she’s spent years building up who she is & she doesn’t have bionic trans-dimensional teleporters & a mishmash robot army. Also her voice acting is mature & impressive. But it’s not an exorcize in Abbadon making him self look powerful & right by making Varesh look dumb & weak. He actually favors her with magic & dominion over demons.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Therefore, the gods have genders. The sylvari do not, they merely emulate it.

With Dwayna giving birth I could buy that, but I don’t know if that is just a matter of a god creating life or weather its actual reproduction like the pale tree. & with how much they retconned the God Lore I don’t even know if it’s just another “that’s what the humans thought” deal.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, except for Mad King Thorn who got one over on almost everyone. And Tixx. And Captain Magnus. And Canach. And Rytlock. And Forgal.

thank you for making my point. on almost everyone. They didn’t feel the need to have a scene where Kiel says something stupid & selfish specifically to Magnus, then to have him point out how dumb she is & then snarkely tell her to get lost. & then do that like 10 more times peppered around.

DarksunG.9537:

I mean the story introduces them with Eir telling you: “The Sons of Svanir are close by. We can try talking to them, but they hate anyone who doesn’t serve their dragon…and they utterly despise women.”

Actually, they wind up a bit better introduced trapping and stalking animals around the shrines of Wolf and Bear. And completely not caring about it. Further north they are harassing travelers on the road just because they can.

The personal story isn’t the whole of the story.

So you require Faren to say “Scarlet sexually assaulted me” for it to be implicit? I don’t think Wooden Potatoes (who likes the story, thought that part was funny & give Anet’s writing WAY more of a pass that many people) had an agenda when he came to the same conclusion. I held off judgement until I saw other people responding the same way. It is was it is.

Wooden Potatoes isn’t the author of that line, and he has questionable conclusions. He is a guy with a YouTube account and not the final authority on lore. Any more than Vayne is the final authority on whether something is right or not on the forums.

So, yes, unless it’s explicitly said Lord Faren was sexually abused? That’s just a fantasy being spun for the heck of it, and being used to sensationalize something which could have been much . . . much more silly and stupid.

Except she does. In the same scene. & not only does Anise berate him before that, she does it after purposefully stirring things up by making the watchwork look like Rytlcok. Yeah, that’s normal.

The Queen does or Anise? Because I’m looking at the dialogue from the wiki and the Queen doesn’t say anything – Anise does. My point was how Anise is the one more suited for that sort of “bap on the nose” than the Queen, much like it’s more seemly for the Commander to sort out a lying minister with Kasmeer than herself.

As for the jab with Rytlock – yes, it’s necessary to rub Logan’s nose in it. That feud was pointless and it being buried in the Citadel of Flame was the single best development to either character.

yeah, that makes sense, lets have queen(the primary defensive objective of the entire army) be a hologram, & they hero of the human armies, the man that’s fought dragons & single handedly done more than any human in the fight against them be out of the loop.

A Dragon. Singular. At the time of the Jubilee Zhaitan hadn’t been defeated yet, from what I recall. And he didn’t face Kralk, he wasn’t there. So, really, he never faced it. And he had to be out of the loop – look at what happened at Caudecus’ Estate when she went missing. He went totally off the end in a way which was out of line.

So that everyone in the area is defending the wrong target & all their lives are at risk as they try to do so, & then after words, now that everyone is in chaos because they think the queen is dead, berates him for properly responding to save the queen instead of saying “sorry about the deception guys, but I had to hide her”.

Which one was where Anise berated him, by the way? Opening or Closing, because I looked at the Closing Ceremonies and she didn’t berate him. You’re reading too much into it, I think.

You’re insane if you think that all the ambient npc dialog with women & men is playful ribbing.

You’re insane if you think it’s all malicious. And again, you’re forcing it into “black and white” when it’s never a black and white issue.

You know you’re reading me completely wrong. but that seems to be how you make “arguments”. You tell me what im saying even thought you know it’s wrong, then you attack that hyperbole with passive aggressive superiority. but when your definition of equality is based on who you can insult.. well.

That’s not how my definition of equality runs. But you can keep believing that if you like. And I did ask if I had it wrong, rather than just assume again, because you seem to be in this “it’s either black or white” concerning this sort of thing. So, I ask you, when is it okay? Or is it never okay?

DarksunG.9537:

& you’re saying i’m just trying to overblow things & make a point? woooow. I don’t mind that Logan is a “tool” of the queen. That’s his Job. but to characterize him entirely by just saying “there is nothing to his character except the Queen. He’s just a tool” is disingenuous just to make a point.

Yeah, but I didn’t say that. You did.

Again, you’re demonstrating you have no idea what you’re talking about. Varesh’s entire life was about surpassing her ancestors & unlocking ancient secrets of the crystal desert (which are invariably linked to Abbadon). all of her military training, political savvy & leadership was an obsession, just like Turai. (all this stuff is in the manual) It’s what makes her character work at the start.

It’s debatable how accurate that stuff is, given what we see later. Varesh delegates a lot of her efforts during the Nightfall campaign and is focused entirely on getting Abaddon released, and winds up throwing away her generals one by one to use Margonites instead.

Whatever she was before we started the Nightfall campaign, that’s not what she is any longer. I repeat: she is a tool of Abaddon which is being used to pry open his prison little by little. There is little else she actively does . . . I say “little else” because I just can’t recall her doing anything personally which is related to anything other than unsealing Abaddon. I’m sure there probably is something, but I don’t recall it.

But it’s not an exorcize in Abbadon making him self look powerful & right by making Varesh look dumb & weak.

And once more – I never said it was. I said she was a tool, not that she was an idiot, not that she was weak and helpless without him. She was a tool, and a means to an end.

If you want to be serious, Shiro and Khilbron got more chances to work for Abaddon than she did – they each got a second chance and a third chance . . . she just got one shot, failed, and that was it.

With Dwayna giving birth I could buy that, but I don’t know if that is just a matter of a god creating life or weather its actual reproduction like the pale tree. & with how much they retconned the God Lore I don’t even know if it’s just another “that’s what the humans thought” deal.

It’s not a matter of a goddess creating life. She bore a half-mortal child which was Grenth. With a sculptor, unnamed but implied heavily to be someone important. Again, therefore they can reproduce with humans. They have gender.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, except for Mad King Thorn who got one over on almost everyone. And Tixx. And Captain Magnus. And Canach. And Rytlock. And Forgal.

thank you for making my point. on almost everyone. They didn’t feel the need to have a scene where Kiel says something stupid & selfish specifically to Magnus, then to have him point out how dumb she is & then snarkely tell her to get lost. & then do that like 10 more times peppered around.

Of course they didn’t, that was what Evon was for, continuously implying how useless and inept Ellen Kiel was. Including during Scarlet’s attack on Lion’s Arch.

And you probably missed my point. I listed six male characters who exist as important pieces who are competent, and never portrayed as anything less than competent. Not even Canach at the party being a snarky little bodyguard who is just itching to be contrary to everyone.

. . . and no, the Mad King is insane, but not incompetent.

Odyssey.2613:

No, the Kormir video is not beyond inaccurate. It has very valid points. I don’t need to write a dissertation on Trahearne and Kormir because the flaws are pretty blatantly effin obvious. To do so is a waste of time. Lore. Mechanical. It doesn’t matter. Arguing over semantics. In the end it is what it is.

You really need to replay Nightfall, then, if you think that video is “not beyond inaccurate”. It is, it really, really is.

It intentionally paints Kormir as a moron and an idiot. For example, the video at 0:45 in depicts the attack at Gandara, the ‘PC’ of the video goes “this is obviously a trap” and Kormir rushes in blindly.

In game, what was the dialogue?

Dunkoro: “This is a trap, Kormir.”
Kormir: “I know, Dunkoro. I know.”
Dunkoro: “Then why push forward?”
Kormir: “We must take the brunt of Varesh’s dark magic.”
Kormir: “We must be the ones to protect Elona.”

Kormir knew it was a trap. She knew the chances of success weren’t the best. But she did it anyways because she knew that if she didn’t the rest of Elona would be in danger regardless.

But despite knowing it was a trap, and despite knowing she had to go in to take down Varesh, she still waited:

Kormir: “Good to see you, Captain. Varesh has holed up here with her followers.”
Kormir: “Now that you’re here, we can make the assault!”
Kormir: “Sunspears! At the ready! Spare those who surrender! Now, in the name of the Five Gods, forward!”

She waited for all her troops to be ready for encountering that trap. She didn’t know what Varesh had planned, but she didn’t just rush in either.

That’s just one example where Kormir’s made to be the complete opposite of how she actually was depicted in-game.

Another point is the very beginning, where the video shows her poking that Abaddon statue with a stick – her explanation of her uncovering the Apocrypha that started it all?

Kormir: “Tales of the forbidden ruins are part of our history. My curiosity and concern made me ignore those warnings.”

She wasn’t idiotically and willy-nilly poking kitten and got in trouble then pretended nothing happened. She knowingly explored forbidden ruins because she both wanted to know why they were forbidden, and what danger they held. And she owned up to it – when trouble came, she went into the ruins to clean up her mess – we just happened to join her. And this was the reason why she felt the duty to take the brunt of Varesh’s trap – that inevitably backfired.

Another major difference is the act of Kormir’s Ascension. The video depicts becoming a god as a reward and that Kormir stole it – the typical player mentality. But what people fail to realize is that godhood was a punishment because that meant continuous restrain on oneself, having to contain the will and power of Abaddon within oneself (aka a continuous battle of will – though Kormir said Abaddon’s will is broken… will it remain such forever?), and having to leave all she had known and loved (Tyria, friends, family, the Sunspears, everything). In Tyria, godhood is time and time again made out to be more of a punishment than a blessing – not just in Nightfall, but even in GW2. The gods are forever alone, no matter how much they want to be with humanity, because their powers are just too dangerous.

If it weren’t so, then Dwayna would not have wept when she had to leave Malchor. Lyssa would not have wept when she had to leave Wren for Arah.

Perhaps people would understand this a bit more if the phrase was not “a choice only a mortal can make” but instead “a sacrifice only a mortal can make.”

What happens when the gods become involved? Wars that bring humanity to the brink of extinction. Seas get turned into deserts. Nightfall.

The video portrays Kormir as a complete kittened kitten that doesn’t own up to her duties. The game portrays Kormir as a Greek tragedy of sorts – a figure who tries to do good, fails, tries to make up for those failures, and is still punished in the end.

The video takes the typical player view – your view, obviously, included – that overlooks all these facts. It is not an appropriate depiction.

Interestingly enough, doing the World Summit instance now. It’s interesting watching Canach casually find the one thing which makes Countess Anise lose her veneer of civility for a second, and leverage that into a more honest conversation.

. . . though it makes me wonder a lot about why Anise responded with such venom.

Strictly speaking, I’d say Shiro was more of a tool than Varesh was. Varesh went into it with eyes wide open – she chose, of her own free will (albeit influenced by Kahyet’s mentorship) to serve Abaddon, and she sought to free Abaddon because she believed Abaddon would help her achieve her goals. And I don’t think there’s anything to indicate she was wrong in this belief – she was granted an ascension to margonite status, and if not for the PCs, it’s likely that Abaddon would have granted her dominion over Elona, if not more. Shiro, on the other hand, was played for a fool pretty much throughout, until finally pushed into a corner where he had no choice short of performing a face-heel-turn and joining the Oddbodies.

Varesh was no more a tool than Priestess Rhie is a tool of Grenth. She was a crusader serving the interests of her god – albeit a mad and evil one, but at no point is there any indication that she was unaware of Abaddon’s true nature.

And yes, Anise’s response there is interesting. There’s a lot of circumstantial evidence that she’s hiding something, and we know there is life-extending magic associated with the Shining Blade.

Mmm, I doubt there would have been an Elona . . . or a Tyria as it could be known now if Nightfall had finished its job and Abaddon had his revenge. Strictly speaking, failing that step was probably a reason we have a fighting chance today.

And there’s nothing wrong with them being tools, any of the three you mention. I said “tool” and not “puppet” because it’s expected of them to do something rather than merely be a mouthpiece and be distracting. Varesh was probably even aware she was a tool, an instrument to be used to begin Nightfall on Tyria. I don’t think she could have objected after what she did in Vabbi, mind you, because she’d fallen a long way. She might have balked before the Sunspear assault on Gandara, but having the strength of Abaddon proven to her? She was ready to go all-in.

As for Anise? . . . the topic and theory I’m mulling over now has been raised many times and it went from seeming a little strange to now having legs.

By the way, to laboriously get back to topic of “yelling at” the new narrative director:

Can you please get your writers into a conference room (I recommend luring them with baked goods) and getting to work figuring out the mess which is the Personal Story and Living World lines so they can mesh better? It did pick up in Season Two to making a more coherent sense but there’s still a big mess.

You have the Story Journal you can add side-stories into now, so maybe it should get used

Leah Hoyer.9382:

So, don’t expect the Elder Dragons to break into song anytime soon.

Well darn.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, I doubt there would have been an Elona . . . or a Tyria as it could be known now if Nightfall had finished its job and Abaddon had his revenge. Strictly speaking, failing that step was probably a reason we have a fighting chance today.

The impression I had was that Abaddon was essentially seeking to cause the Realm of Torment to expand to encompass Tyria. It would have been a very different Tyria (basically imagine EVERY zone in a ‘Nightfallen’ mode) but there would still have been an Elona for Varesh to rule. It may even have been contiguous rather than each zone being an independent island floating in the void!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Interestingly enough, doing the World Summit instance now. It’s interesting watching Canach casually find the one thing which makes Countess Anise lose her veneer of civility for a second, and leverage that into a more honest conversation.

. . . though it makes me wonder a lot about why Anise responded with such venom.

Honestly? I suspect the quick and venomous reply is a deception in itself.

When someone makes a jab at Anise about her age, she seems to drop her guard completely and lose her poise. The answer is obvious, she is using a glamour to conceal what she really looks like. Petty, perhaps, a bit vain, but the investigator gets the smug sense of satisfaction of outdoing the deceiver.

Assuming, of course, that is remotely what it is all about. It’s much easier to deceive someone who thinks they’ve already solved the mystery. A red herring, a false reveal, a taste of victory are all it takes to make someone confident that they’ve uncovered the truth. A good con artist will fool you once. A great con artists will deceive you thrice. A master of deception will convince you that you can’t be fooled again.

Anise would be far more dangerous if she was exactly the age she says she is.

We have strong male characters, they just need to be utilized. We need some of the female characters to take the lead. And for the sake of all that is good in the universe we need to kill off some of the cast. Queen Jenna needs to perish heroically standing up for her people at the hands of a centaur high shaman during an attack/raid in which Divinity’s Reach falls almost completely. The alliances that Scarlet formed need to be brought into the fold and convinced to help with both the Centaur advance and the dragons. Trahearne needs to fall from grace as both a First Born and Pact Commander. Caithe needs to be put in a position, by someone she trusts, in which she is utilized as an assassin to kill an innocent, on faith that its for the best, regardless of whether it is or isn’t. Zojja needs to be dealing with conspiracy and deceit within Metrica and Rata Sum. Eir needs to focus on trying to bring the Kodan into the fight against the dragons and the centaur (primarily the centaur, who are somehow threatening or upsetting the balance of the Mist). Logan needs to travel to Cantha in order to set up security in preparation for Queen Jenna’s arrival to request aid from Cantha in the fight against the dragons. Finally, I think Trahearne needs to redeem himself by battling against the Pale Tree’s Avatar after he learns of her corruption by Mordremoth. Phew… just some thoughts.

Rich Fuel.7253:

• Over fifteen years of experience crafting dynamic portfolio strategy, developing break-out IP and driving franchise growth for video games and television series.
• Proven success assembling and guiding large, multifunctional teams that create and produce hits.
• Deep expertise in deal negotiation, marketing, profit growth, and developing new products and services to meet consumer demand and increase revenue.
• Extensive contacts within the entertainment industry and exceptional ability to innovate, problem solve and tackle new challenges.

Specialties: Portfolio Strategy, Franchise Development, Video Games, Animation, Interactive, Creative Management, Team Assembly and Management

She’s a marketing person not a creative. Get ready for some new items in the gem store.

So worst-case scenario is business as usual, then?

There’s more in that resume than just marketing, though. There’s a bit of it in there, sure, but that’s par for the course. Either way, let’s give the new team member a chance, shall we?

Leah Hoyer.9382:

So, don’t expect the Elder Dragons to break into song anytime soon.

Who needs a singing dragon when we already have a singing pirate in GW2?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Captain_Penzan

Greetings and Welcome. :-)

That’s a notable shout-out / reference to a stage production. It’s obvious which

Talking about ingame characters …. here is a list of my NPC favorites / which characters I’d like to see more of in future (+). Its Christmas soon and time to put up a whish list! :-)

Living World I + II:
Marjory (there still is hope for this character!!)
Canach (cant get enough of him …)
Rytlock Brimstone
Eir Stegalkin
Riot Alice +3
Bonny Anne Reid +3
Taimi
Hao Luen +3
Ellen Kiel +
Evon Gnashblade +
Laranthir of the Wild
Phlunt
The Pale Tree Avatar
Mai Trin +2
Moto +2

Personal Story:
Trahearne (the Marshal FTW! Got a tear in my eye during the Source of Orr ritual …)
Apatia (RIP – Apatia forever … GiGi’s lost love … saddest story yet)
Faolain +3
Caithe +2
Malyck +
Galina Edgecrusher
Ballista Geargrind & Mangonel Gearstrip (‘Armor Guard’ Instanz)
Varkk
Shodd +
Almorra Soulkeeper +

Tyria:
Ember Doomforge / Summit Peak +
Minister Caudecus / Queen’s Throne Room (+ The one and only really bad boy …)
Minister Duran / Summit Peak +
Baedren & Galdulf / Cereboth Canyon +
Lord Arrin / Claypool +
Zomorros / Mystic forge +2 – ingame!
Skritt King & Skritt / Skrittsburgh +
Tork & assistant Marpi / Restricted Zone XRB
Jonno / ‘Jonnoville’ +
Ailionora & Jeek / Oros Spurs +
Riel Darkwater / Chantry of Secrets +
Ordance Officer Ironbarb / Iron Legion kitten nal +
Niiri Freemane / Drytop +
Amoxtli, Savio & Kitabu / Drytop
Suwash / Jetsam Isle +
Sludi / Might and Main
Seraphette & Bandito / kittenattler Caverns
Nia & Cymbel / Cymbel’s Rescue
Bria / Bria’s Manor? +
Dessa / Fractals +
Steward Gixx / Durmand Priory +
Kroganna Frazarblade / Summit Peak
Spooky Luka the Disbeliever / Shattered Keep +
Donala / Whisperwill Bogs
Kyran Stonecrush (member of the Stone Warband) / “Last Whiskey Bar”
“Ref” Sparkeeper / “Last Whiskey Bar”
Gullik Oddsson / Secluded Glen +
Captain Romke / Wreck of the Saehrimnir +
Kodan Icehammer / Krok’s Ruin
Valiant Ashgren / Gorlois Spine +

AuroraW.7149:

Talking about ingame characters …. here is a list of my NPC favorites / which characters I’d like to see more of in future (+). Its Christmas soon and time to put up a whish list! :-)

Personal Story:
Trahearne

Oh no you didn’t! :P

Aside from the story itself:
If you create a story where you destroy something, make it so it at least adds new content. If you destroy another fort, make it so it comes with events like scavanging it afterwards or rebuilding or hunting down enemies in the remains.

I wish Anet would hire someone like WoodenPotatoes. He knows his lore and is always offering some amazing ideas and suggestions for areas of improvement.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

AuroraW.7149:

Talking about ingame characters …. here is a list of my NPC favorites / which characters I’d like to see more of in future (+). Its Christmas soon and time to put up a whish list! :-)

Personal Story:
Trahearne

Oh no you didn’t! :P

Oh yes he dud!

Korval.3751:

I wish Anet would hire someone like WoodenPotatoes. He knows his lore and is always offering some amazing ideas and suggestions for areas of improvement.

Speculates too much and I find his conclusions often questionable as a good continuation of a story. But yes, do consider hiring him. Then we can have people complain about him selling out.

Korval.3751:

I wish Anet would hire someone like WoodenPotatoes. He knows his lore and is always offering some amazing ideas and suggestions for areas of improvement.

Too much speculation and a lot of (he says so himself) is summerizing others ideas in his videos.
While he did a lot of good stuff and is a dedicated player, i wouldn`t put him in a higher position than that.
Mostly because we would loose a great dedicated youtuber that way and GW2 certainly needs these.

The library. Just… the library. I spent a long time just reading all the books and staring at the map. Though that wasn’t so much about narrative, so as for narrative moment, reunion of the Pact. The music, the dialog, meeting old friends, it was pretty great. It was just how it should be, Pact on the move again.

Also, I liked all the foreboding elements, I feel like we are in a house of cards on many fronts, and I can’t wait to see what falls first.

Hello! Sorry for my bad English, my partner was not available to help me make complex sentences … I might very badly speak in English.

I especially like:

- Traherne has much more character. I was surprised.
- I laughed on hearing that Phlunt failed to remove the machine of Taimi!
- The discovery of library ( I love all the books, I regret that it is not of the same taste for a normal library Priore. I spent 2 hours at screens and see everything in detail, just for the RP fanaticism. I regret not having more information on the current white-coats.)
- The puzzles should be further (if we could have other mechanisms of puzzles, and push more complex, I would die happy.)
- The between Glint (a reference to GW1, just beautiful, Awesome!)
- Egg Glint! twist in the story! I jumped in front of my pc! A real Asura in full crisis fanaticism happy!

Times less liked:
- The sword haunted by Belinda. (I recall that a little too manga is too often viewed and re-viewed)
- I’m not really inspired by “heros” of our group. I can not explain why …
- The idea of the battle against mordremoth almost immediately made ??me questioned me. It should be a lot closer than what I thought of our First areas. Although the area is very much alive, is not this a little premature?