Guild Wars 2

Now that the World Map has been significantly enlarged over where Elona is, we can see a path of Branded leading further to the SE with another massive patch similar to where Kralkatorrik crashed in Destiny’s Edge.

Can anyone identify what that new patch covers in terms of the corresponding geography from GW1? Is it Vabbi?

My immediate reaction is that the rather large building west of the splotch is the Holdings of Chokin, Prince Bokka’s old place. That would put the southern Dragonbrand streak north and just east of the old Vabbi maps.

We’ll see once that_shaman finishes the updated legacy map!

Tanner Blackfeather.6509:

My immediate reaction is that the rather large building west of the splotch is the Holdings of Chokin, Prince Bokka’s old place. That would put the southern Dragonbrand streak north and just east of the old Vabbi maps.

We’ll see once that_shaman finishes the updated legacy map!

I thinks these are gardens of sebolkhin, and I think WP mantined that name in his vid about the new map

which would put the dragon supposed lair nearly right ontop of mirror of lyss

could have made sense considering the fact that he was after all somewhat wounded after the fight with DE and considering the fact that mirror of lyss was strongly magical place…

Randulf.7614:

Now that the World Map has been significantly enlarged over where Elona is, we can see a path of Branded leading further to the SE with another massive patch similar to where Kralkatorrik crashed in Destiny’s Edge.

Wait, what? No. The location of the crash was just outside Glint’s Lair, not half a continent away.

The new line added and the big spot is where Kralkatorrik left after Snaff was killed and Rytlock failed to kill Kralkatorrik.

And it centers over the Mirror of Lyss – covering about all of eastern Vabbi.

That shaman had already updated his Historical Guide for the full new world map in the dat (we only get a portion of all they added, enough for the leaked PoF maps).

http://www.thatshaman.com/tools/guide/

Isn’t the first spot on the map at the end of the original Branded line where Glint’s Lair is though?

First spot (which previously was the end of the Dragonbrand) is right on top of Glint’s Lair.

Konig is completely correct about the Garden of Sebhorin and The Mirror of Lyss.
I strongly recommend people have a look at the linked site, that_shaman does an amazing job with that overlap map!

here goes the thought of visiting mirror of lyss in the expac…..

here goes the thoought abotu hidden city of abdhasim being a new raid wing(s) ^-^

and then seems I have played nightfall little bit tad too much to be able to recognise gardens of sebolkhin on the map just like that
[I thought it were those ever since my first glimpse on the leaked maps few months ago…..]

I think the structure between the big branded patch on far bottom right corner and the Desolation is Garden of Seborhin. The brand cover the area around Kodash bazaar and Grand court of Sebelkeh. And maybe even part of Dzagonur bastion, can’t make out the exact scale of the map.

for those not familiar with gw1, still confuse.

Elona is a continent thats contain Crystal Desert? Or the Crystal Desert is a area that contain a nation called Elona? Or they are 2 separate stuff?

EDIT i stoped being lazy and checked wiki

“The Crystal Desert is, as the name implies, a desert located south of Ascalon and east of Orr which acts as a land bridge between the continents of Tyria and Elona.”

Tyria and Elona is really even less separate continents than Europe and Asia is. The Crysta Desert has always been presented as the far northern edge of Elona. The Primeval Kings were an ancient Elonan dynasty, and the Tomb of the Primeval Kings was a big deal in GW1.

Elona is technically not a continent. It’s a nation.

In GW1, it was mechanically a continent, which has led to much confusion among players who began to view it as a continent rather than a nation, but in lore it has always been just a nation. In GW1’s time, the nation only consisted of its three provinces: Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi. In the past, certain groups attempted to spread it north into the Crystal Desert (specifically the Primeval Kings and Turai Ossa, the later creating the colony Elonia in the desert) but they failed. Joko has done so again, and succeeded.

So during GW1’s time, the Crystal Desert and its sub-region, the Desolation, were not part of Elona. But in GW2’s time it is.

When most folks talk about continental Tyria – like in the outdated wiki ugrakarma quoted – they’re actually referring to “Central Tyria” – continental Tyria is much, much, much bigger and includes Elona. As one can see here.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Elona is technically not a continent. It’s a nation.

In GW1, it was mechanically a continent, which has led to much confusion among players who began to view it as a continent rather than a nation, but in lore it has always been just a nation. In GW1’s time, the nation only consisted of its three provinces: Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi. In the past, certain groups attempted to spread it north into the Crystal Desert (specifically the Primeval Kings and Turai Ossa, the later creating the colony Elonia in the desert) but they failed. Joko has done so again, and succeeded.

So during GW1’s time, the Crystal Desert and its sub-region, the Desolation, were not part of Elona. But in GW2’s time it is.

When most folks talk about continental Tyria – like in the outdated wiki ugrakarma quoted – they’re actually referring to “Central Tyria” – continental Tyria is much, much, much bigger and includes Elona. As one can see here.

After playing a bit of Path of Fire, I feel more comfortable saying that you’re wrong in this. I’m not quite ready to say where is Elona and where isn’t, but Amnoon is NOT in Elona. Many of the refugees, deserters and other NPCs make it clear that they’re fleeing from Elona to Amnoon, and don’t want to go back.

Now, if the nation of Elona happens to consist only of Kourna, Istan and Vabbi, then there’s still room for your theory. But I don’t recall anywhere saying that Kourna or Vabbi were just provinces of a larger nation. I’m pretty sure each one of those three regions were independently ruled, for better or for worse.

elona is a land!

and there is a hard proof for it not “shifting” it’s borders in demo area:

Rognik.2579:

After playing a bit of Path of Fire, I feel more comfortable saying that you’re wrong in this. I’m not quite ready to say where is Elona and where isn’t, but Amnoon is NOT in Elona. Many of the refugees, deserters and other NPCs make it clear that they’re fleeing from Elona to Amnoon, and don’t want to go back.

Yes, it seems Elona’s borders don’t go as far north as I initially expected. But that doesn’t make me wrong on the rest.

Rognik.2579:

Now, if the nation of Elona happens to consist only of Kourna, Istan and Vabbi, then there’s still room for your theory. But I don’t recall anywhere saying that Kourna or Vabbi were just provinces of a larger nation. I’m pretty sure each one of those three regions were independently ruled, for better or for worse.

To quote GW1’s manual:

Elona thrives in a realm surrounded by savannahs, deserts, plains, and wastelands. Three allied provinces stand side by side to support this proud nation. To the west is Istan, an island province littered with the ruins of an earlier Elonian empire. To the east is Kourna, known for its fiercely loyal soldiers, dedicated army, expansive estates, and agriculture. The northern province of Vabbi is home to wealthy merchant princes, a land where successful Elonians believe their safety, security, and affluence allow them to sponsor many of their nation’s greatest achievements. Despite occasional rivalries, these three provinces—Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi—have kept Elona prosperous and strong for over a thousand years.

The manual itself calls Elona a nation that is consisted of three allied provinces. This paragraph is in fact the very first entry of lore in the manual, on page 11.

@Lord Trejgon.2809: The Desolation is part of the Crystal Desert, so the nation of Elona is not south of the Crystal Desert, but south of the Crystal Oasis area. It contains part of the Crystal Desert (mainly The Desolation and possibly more, depending on what the next map south contains).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Lord Trejgon.2809: The Desolation is part of the Crystal Desert, so the nation of Elona is not south of the Crystal Desert, but south of the Crystal Oasis area. It contains part of the Crystal Desert (mainly The Desolation and possibly more, depending on what the next map south contains).

well being nitpicky here I’d not really count deso as a part of elona tho
it’s southern part of crystal desert, elonian provinces are south from it

[but then I’ll keep pressing you onto <and lookingup all evidences possible> using it as a geographical term as long as you will press on using it as purely national term – you could ofc agree to thing I think I have once already suggested aka going with india analogue from real word when single word is used to describe both more-or-less strict geographical place and the nation occupying but not limiting itself to it – it’ up to you

and for the manual quote – I’ll repeat the in-game quote “Elona, Land of the Golden Sun” – I think we all woudl agree here that in-game lore should be put on higher regard than out-of-game attachments so…. there isn;t really more sensible solution than to agree that it means both place and nation originating from that place and stop telling people that it’s not place but nation <and go on with "it’s not only place but also a nation?> ]

EDIT: althougth trying to correctly precise what geographically should and shouldn’t count as elona “in current time” is majorly screwed by the fact that quite and important geographical “hint” – elon river – was redirected from the land that would fall in as "elona"by the old standards into crystal desert region that could be argued if belonged to the area in the first place…..

EDIT2: also the statement of “the nation of elona being south of the crystal oasis area” is not exacly precise too – there are alot of members of that nation quite far north from that border – even some people in modern kryta would claim to be still members of elonian nation [but to draw paralel to my rl example above – there are also alot of ethnical indian [modernly called hindi to cover up someone’s major screw up in realising where he was few centuries ago?] that are all over the world in many cases – literaly on the other side of the globe but still everyone with basic geographical knowledge would not have much issue finding indian pennisula on the map…..

EDIT3:

Now, if the nation of Elona happens to consist only of Kourna, Istan and Vabbi, then there’s still room for your theory. But I don’t recall anywhere saying that Kourna or Vabbi were just provinces of a larger nation. I’m pretty sure each one of those three regions were independently ruled, for better or for worse.

well on this one konig is right tho – from the very beginning of any nightfall sources [in-game or out of the game] it’s pretty clearly stated that elona “country” is combined from istan, kourna and vabbi provinces [and they are always in the nightfall refered as “provinces”] there is one mission of main nightfall campaign that explains the whole thign very nice – forgot the name of the mission itself but it was just after blacktide den mission, and before war preparations – so after kournan dignitary gets killed in istan province land there was a special council called to determine consequences of the whole incident that was – if memory serves – consistign of representatives of istan and kourna provinces and I am atm not sure if there wasn’t few vabbi guys as a form of neutral “add in” to ensure that istan and kourna will sort it out nicely and fairly and for all my knowledge of things it would not look even remotely like that if those were fully independent states

If Elona the nation falls and a new nation is there, then the land which is currently called Elona will be called something else.

Same way that once upon a time, we called the peninsula shaped like a boot “the Roman Empire” and not “Italy”. Same way once upon a time, there was a land called Carthage that exists no more, instead that same place is called the Tunis Governorate. Once upon a time, we had Gaul; now that land is France, Belgium, Luxemburg and parts of the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany.

Being called “Land of the Golden Sun” does not mean Elona is more than a nation. Japan is called “Land of the Rising Sun” but it is a nation, should Japan fall and a new nation rise, then it will take on a new name and a new moniker that replaces that phrase.

Elona is not a landscape, like the Siberian Peninsula or the Rocky Mountains or the Sahara Desert. It is a nation. And like all nations, its borders can expand, contract, and be eliminated all together. Elona consists of landscapes called Jahai Bluffs, Vehtendi Valley, Issnur Isles, and now the Desolation and now reaches into the Crystal Desert. But it is not a landscape.

The same goes for Kryta, Ascalon, Deldrimor (which is now non-existent), the Canthan Empire, etc. Technically speaking, the land we call “Ascalon” in GW2 shouldn’t be called such – the only reason it is, is because the charr have adopted the name for their conquered lands. If they didn’t, we could be calling Charrnotopia, and the borders of Ascalon would be within the Fields of Ruin map.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If Elona the nation falls and a new nation is there, then the land which is currently called Elona will be called something else.

Same way that once upon a time, we called the peninsula shaped like a boot “the Roman Empire” and not “Italy”.

Then charrs should have already renamed Ascalon by now.
Considering Elona, the direct analogy would be Europe – part of a continent with a coalition of nations (europeans). The territory of Europe is geographically pre determined, even if the nations in its borders shift. Siberia doesn’t become Europe just because Eupopean Russia holds over it. As well England will be part of Europe even if all of it population at ones will imigrate to USA.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If Elona the nation falls and a new nation is there, then the land which is currently called Elona will be called something else.

Same way that once upon a time, we called the peninsula shaped like a boot “the Roman Empire” and not “Italy”.

yet Rome is still Rome, and quite alot actually of cities dating back to the roman empire remain their names.

also – “The Roman Empire” was not the name of the pennisula – it was a name of state that have occupied it – as for how romans called the pennisula from geographical standpoint – I do not know how they did call it – if you have some credible sources on that one – be my guest and share it – but do not bring a political names to try to counterpoint geographical name

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Being called “Land of the Golden Sun” does not mean Elona is more than a nation. Japan is called “Land of the Rising Sun” but it is a nation, should Japan fall and a new nation rise, then it will take on a new name and a new moniker that replaces that phrase.

the political entity would took probably different name – with within the old world people would still refer to it as a “Land of the Rising Sun” – because that name did not came straightly out of japanese people but more from the act that if you center the map around the “old world” [europe] japanese is the place furthest east so the poetry started going on how the sun rise there

similar to elona – tropical/desert-ish climate of the region goes into poetical “golden sun”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Elona is not a landscape, like the Siberian Peninsula or the Rocky Mountains or the Sahara Desert. It is a nation. And like all nations, its borders can expand, contract, and be eliminated all together. Elona consists of landscapes called Jahai Bluffs, Vehtendi Valley, Issnur Isles, and now the Desolation and now reaches into the Crystal Desert. But it is not a landscape.

expect the name does ALSO [not only] refer to this part of continent and actually for all the sources I recall the name actually predates this specific civilisation and dates at least as far back as when crystal desert was crystal sea.

Fahranur for example belongs to previous civilisation – and while Fahranur empire fell, there re sources in game [gwn] implying that “fahranurian” already called the land elona [at least it’s continental part]

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The same goes for Kryta, Ascalon, Deldrimor (which is now non-existent), the Canthan Empire, etc. Technically speaking, the land we call “Ascalon” in GW2 shouldn’t be called such – the only reason it is, is because the charr have adopted the name for their conquered lands. If they didn’t, we could be calling Charrnotopia, and the borders of Ascalon would be within the Fields of Ruin map.

Kryta as as geographical theory didn’t shift much – Kryta as a kindgom did shifted it’s borders – but there are still pieces of land obviously outside of the borders of kryta that are officially labeled to belong into “kryta” region.

Canthan empire is a political entity of currently unknown content – but Cantha is specifically a continent far south. also question about ascalon arises of who actually called it first – there are few lines in GWP, GWEotN, and GW2 suggesting that “ascalon” could be a name also predating human kingdom in there.

also – Orr kittenula – Orian nation is gone, replaced with risen – and yet still everyone calls it Orr – not RisenLand Risenotopia, Zhaitan kingdom – no, no “name change” was issues to this region due to the shift of the nation living ontop of it. which seems be a little concept you either ignore, are fail to grasp. Geographical names are not always specifically tied to a civilisation, althought oftenly nations living on the land call the land after themselves or takes the earlier established geographical names and take them upon themselves. and trying to pull out political entities to disproof geographical names is a miss.

EDIT lol “kittenula” go home profanity filter, you’re drunk

And here I am impatiently waiting for the next expansion where we go to Cantha….

Lord Trejgon.2809:

yet Rome is still Rome, and quite alot actually of cities dating back to the roman empire remain their names.

Rome is a city, and though its rulership changed, the city remains to this day.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

the political entity would took probably different name – with within the old world people would still refer to it as a “Land of the Rising Sun” – because that name did not came straightly out of japanese people but more from the act that if you center the map around the “old world” [europe] japanese is the place furthest east so the poetry started going on how the sun rise there

I am fairly certain the term predates when western cultures began communicating with Japan.

It’s got little to do with location.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Fahranur for example belongs to previous civilisation – and while Fahranur empire fell, there re sources in game [gwn] implying that “fahranurian” already called the land elona [at least it’s continental part]

Fahranur was not a previous civilization, it was no empire. It was a city, nothing else.

Fahranur was a city in the Elonian empire ruled by the Primeval Kings. When they founded their empire that at first consisted of only what became called Istan and Kourna, they dubbed it “Elona”.

Regarding Orr – that’s because the Orrian kingdom is all that was and is there. Even destroyed, it is where the kingdom of Orr was. We’re not calling the land Orr, but rather the kingdom that was in that land Orr. It’s the same reason we talk about the land around Pompeii as Pompeii and not some new land – because a new city has not been built over it, so it is still the ruins of Pompeii; similarly, it’s still the ruins of Orr (hence the region’s name being Ruins of Orr and not just “Orr” – Orr is the name of the kingdom located on that peninsula and people refer to that peninsula as Orr because they’re referring to the land of the once kingdom which has not yet been replaced).

Despite being in the mechanical region of Kryta, Bloodtide Coast is never once called “Kryta”. Same with Southsun Cove.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Elona is technically not a continent. It’s a nation.

In GW1, it was mechanically a continent, which has led to much confusion among players who began to view it as a continent rather than a nation, but in lore it has always been just a nation. In GW1’s time, the nation only consisted of its three provinces: Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi. In the past, certain groups attempted to spread it north into the Crystal Desert (specifically the Primeval Kings and Turai Ossa, the later creating the colony Elonia in the desert) but they failed. Joko has done so again, and succeeded.

So during GW1’s time, the Crystal Desert and its sub-region, the Desolation, were not part of Elona. But in GW2’s time it is.

When most folks talk about continental Tyria – like in the outdated wiki ugrakarma quoted – they’re actually referring to “Central Tyria” – continental Tyria is much, much, much bigger and includes Elona. As one can see here.

its clear now.

i think the same mess will happen with the mechanical regions of Gw2, all new ls3 maps, are grouped in the “heart of magumma”. the devs should look at this.

Only Bloodstone Fen is in the “Heart of Maguuma” region, but due to how mastery insights were designed, since they’re all HoT masteries they talk about the maguuma / jungle even if it’s Bitterfrost Frontier (mechanically a Shiverpeaks region map).

Instead of continents like GW1 had to differentiate releases, we have mastery sections (for lack of a better term) which for HoT just labels things as being in the jungle, whether they are or not (and for PoF, it’s in the Crystal Desert). Should be looked at either way – they went and removed the much-better sounding Magus Falls in favor of Heart of Maguuma because of such confusions after all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

yet Rome is still Rome, and quite alot actually of cities dating back to the roman empire remain their names.

Rome is a city, and though its rulership changed, the city remains to this day.

and yet there are also examples of cities beign renamed as soon and now owner capture them….. but then ok City of Rome was weak counterpart – would have to look up how romans have called pannisula itself to continue on this one.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

the political entity would took probably different name – with within the old world people would still refer to it as a “Land of the Rising Sun” – because that name did not came straightly out of japanese people but more from the act that if you center the map around the “old world” [europe] japanese is the place furthest east so the poetry started going on how the sun rise there

I am fairly certain the term predates when western cultures began communicating with Japan.

It’s got little to do with location.

the only “name” for japan that would predate first contacts with outside civilisations would be “Land of cherry blossoms” [pretty stuff ]

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Fahranur for example belongs to previous civilisation – and while Fahranur empire fell, there re sources in game [gwn] implying that “fahranurian” already called the land elona [at least it’s continental part]

Fahranur was not a previous civilization, it was no empire. It was a city, nothing else.

Fahranur was a city in the Elonian empire ruled by the Primeval Kings. When they founded their empire that at first consisted of only what became called Istan and Kourna, they dubbed it “Elona”.

Fahranur was a city belonging to “previous civilisation” which later have flourished into empire – excavations there are(were?) made in a similar manner as we would do if we have found somewhere well preserved remains of karthage or other ancient city

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Regarding Orr – that’s because the Orrian kingdom is all that was and is there. Even destroyed, it is where the kingdom of Orr was. We’re not calling the land Orr, but rather the kingdom that was in that land Orr. It’s the same reason we talk about the land around Pompeii as Pompeii and not some new land – because a new city has not been built over it, so it is still the ruins of Pompeii; similarly, it’s still the ruins of Orr (hence the region’s name being Ruins of Orr and not just “Orr” – Orr is the name of the kingdom located on that peninsula and people refer to that peninsula as Orr because they’re referring to the land of the once kingdom which has not yet been replaced).

well I suppose elder dragon and undead empire is “nothing”

also – there are ruins of previous civilisations with ‘nothing’ [undead] taking a hold over it and this chunk of land is not called “ruins of …..” but instead they call it desolation…. [go figure]

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Despite being in the mechanical region of Kryta, Bloodtide Coast is never once called “Kryta”. Same with Southsun Cove.

because it’s a part of geographical region of kryta and all “spoken” uses of the name are in regard to the kingdom who have lost it’s reign over those lands long time ago

Lord Trejgon.2809:

well I suppose elder dragon and undead empire is “nothing”

also – there are ruins of previous civilisations with ‘nothing’ [undead] taking a hold over it and this chunk of land is not called “ruins of …..” but instead they call it desolation…. [go figure]

Given that Elder Dragons and risen are not considered a civilization, it would be “nothing” in the realm of politics and sovereign lands.

The Desolation is another matter, because it was never its own nation. Those ruins were of Elona, and they were lost to Elona once. The Desolation name is regional – like Jahai Bluffs in Kourna – and named such because the land is desolated of most life. It is part of the Crystal Desert. Joko had conquered Elona and brought Elona’s borders past it once more. So it is now, once again, part of Elona.

Because Elona’s borders move. Because it is a nation, not a geographical region.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

because it’s a part of geographical region of kryta and all “spoken” uses of the name are in regard to the kingdom who have lost it’s reign over those lands long time ago

There is no “geographical region of Kryta” – that’s not how geography works.

It’s never called Kryta because, as you said, the kingdom lost its reign over those lands (or rather, never had such in the case of Southsun Cove).

You’re taking mechanics too factual for actuality. I suggest you read up on how geography works before you continue this discussion.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

because it’s a part of geographical region of kryta and all “spoken” uses of the name are in regard to the kingdom who have lost it’s reign over those lands long time ago

There is no “geographical region of Kryta” – that’s not how geography works.

It’s never called Kryta because, as you said, the kingdom lost its reign over those lands (or rather, never had such in the case of Southsun Cove).

You’re taking mechanics too factual for actuality. I suggest you read up on how geography works before you continue this discussion.

there is a geographical region of kryta from which the kingdom derived it’s place [just as orr derivered from pennisula and ascalon seems to considering that from the very beginning charrs were on mighty quest to “reclaim ascalon” not to “reclaim charrotopia hunting grounds”

and just as “nation” of elonians have derived their name from geographical region of elona [which was probably originally meant as a land around elon river – and there was more historical counterparts of nations deriving its name from regions like this but I forgot how they were called…..

as for advice – I could say just the same, because over the course of this discuss you have managed to mix out states, nations, and few geographical names just as they were one thing.

EDIT: yes, dragon and it’s undead army would not count as a civilisation on it’s own, but as a matter of politics and sovereign states it would count – it is after all an empire governed by sentient being taking land into control with it’s own goal – sure not very likely to want to talk to you aside “surrender or die” but still all the points on the list checks out – also to no go that much further the brand – which is kralkattorik – other dragon – domain actually get’s recognised both from political and logistical points as a hostile territory. Also in other fantasy titles it is not that uncommon to name “states” uzurped by dragons as separate states which would imply that if “orr” was just the name of a nation, old regions of orr should be now called “Zhaitan Domain” [with maybe some sort of aknowledgement of zhaitan beign dead now]

Before the human nation of Kryta existed, the land is just referred to as “valleys”. It had no geographical regional name. Same goes for Ascalon, being “high plains”. ArenaNet kept the same names, but that’s typically not how it actually works. They likely did things non-standardly for the sake of player familiarity.

As for modern Orr: from a matter of politics, Tyrians do not see the Elder Dragons as “a sentient being taking land into control with its own goal”. They have always viewed the Elder Dragons as mindless beings of destruction comparable to natural disasters.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As for modern Orr: from a matter of politics, Tyrians do not see the Elder Dragons as “a sentient being taking land into control with its own goal”. They have always viewed the Elder Dragons as mindless beings of destruction comparable to natural disasters.

“mindless” is rather last thing that comes to mind when seeing actions of zhaitan, or mordremoth, and for kralkatorrik there are direct references on novels where tyrians compare themselves to it as “ants”

if you think you are an ant to something you also rather not assume that thing being mindless.

also sure- there is likelyhood that alot in geographical naming of regions in Tyria were mere shortcuts just for the sake of players realising what is supposed to be what – but then when lore is concerned if you are making such shortcuts when naming things you are agreeing to the in-world consequences of those shortcuts

There’s a difference, Trejgon, between how we as players see them, and how Tyrians see them. How Tyrians view the Elder Dragons may have changed in the last half-decade as well, but during the personal story, Tyrians view the Elder Dragons and all of their minions as mindless.

This is why there’s such a surprise factor with the risen’s assault of the three Orders’ HQs, and setting a trap for Trahearne during Forging the Pact instance.

Tyrians viewed the Elder Dragons as mindless forces of nature. They were wrong.

But that view dictates the political ramifications of how one nation views other lands. The sovereign lands of Tyria see Orr not as a land ruled by a sapient dragon with its own way of governing things, but as a ruined kingdom littered with mindless monstrosities. Thus they refer to the land by its old name, the same way we refer to the city of Pompeii as such as those ruins still remain, with no new civilization rebuilding it.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

also sure- there is likelyhood that alot in geographical naming of regions in Tyria were mere shortcuts just for the sake of players realising what is supposed to be what – but then when lore is concerned if you are making such shortcuts when naming things you are agreeing to the in-world consequences of those shortcuts

Technically, no.

If “Ascalon” were to be tied to a geographical region, we’d likely see the name being “Ascalonian High Plains” or something of the like. Ascalon is a nation, not a geographical region. Same goes for Orr, Kryta, Deldrimor, and Elona.

Same reason why the Echovald Forest (a geographical region) is not the name of the Kurzick nation and Jade Sea (also a geographical region) is not the name of the Luxon nation (we actually do not have a set name for their nation / vassal state beyond “Kurzick Great Houses” and “Luxon Armada”).

Rather than saying “well we don’t have another name so therefore this name means both” it is more accurate to say “this is a lacking piece of lore that the writers haven’t given us”. Same for things like how the asura, charr, and norn documented the passage of days/weeks/months/years before utilizing the Mouvelian calendar (or even why they use the human Mouvelian calendar).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Rather than saying “well we don’t have another name so therefore this name means both” it is more accurate to say “this is a lacking piece of lore that the writers haven’t given us”. Same for things like how the asura, charr, and norn documented the passage of days/weeks/months/years before utilizing the Mouvelian calendar (or even why they use the human Mouvelian calendar).

ok well while I admit this one would work for ascalon and kryta [in meaning of missing geographical names for “attached” geographical regions – it does not really work for the case of elona – because – again in GWN there are multiple references to Elona as a specific land and Elonians as a nation living in that land [by the way while at it, in case you didn’t notice when this debate started in the other thread my point was as Elona being name of land only just as yours is that it is name of a nation only – and earlier in this thread I have suggested a middle line between them for both as indeed overal around the game lore pieces are using the name in both meanings]

Also I’d like to point out that “nation” and “state”/"country are also not same – there is not really such a thing as “nations borders” nowaday [and also seems be a case in tyria] because members of nations are spread out within pretty much all habited area [in case of elonians there are reaching as far as divinity’s reach from their ancestral lands]

Also again to the disillusioned refugees from the new PoF map – they say they have left elona [that they shouldn’t leave it] you cannot “leave” your nation like that – you can leave your nation’s land, you can leave country runned by your nation by wherever you go you will be member of this nation.

as for shifting borders though after additional considerations on how naming things tends to work, major geographical change [that did happen] may effect with renaming of things – to be precise – if naming started with a river [river Elon → Elona as Land surroundign river Elon – pretty common thing in the past to name things] then huge shift in where this river went may result in re-labeling lands meaning that alot of what used to be a crystal desert and not considered a part of elona, could be “modernly” considered elona – because thats where river elon is “now”. but this approach would breed alot of questions in regard if vabbi and istan territories should be considered part of Elona land – as river elon is no longer even remotely close.

I really hope at this point that expansion will provide definite answers in those regards