Guild Wars 2

Xriah.5743:

I can’t help but feel like it’s a strange idea to spend development time on temporary content.

If you look back at older MMOs like Everquest or World of Warcraft or City of Heroes(RIP), they contain a seemingly bottomless pit of content. Years and years of updates and expansions stacked on top of one another make for a wealth of content that newer MMO’s can only hope to obtain in time. Even if it ends up being largely unused as the players keep up with the ever advancing endgame, it allows newer players to see and explore the past. Kind of like how the Southsun Cove is now. It’s fallen into obscurity, but newer players who wern’t around for the event have the oppourtunity to discover the area and explore it.

There are still so many areas of this game that can be filled out. Why spend time on this when you can make more permanent additions to your game and use them as selling points? Just from past updates, I get the impression that the dev team is spread thin enough as it is without tacking on tasks that only have a temporary impact. Spend those resources elsewhere like patch QA, bugfixing, mini games, new zones, polishing the personal story, balancing skills and traits, etc. I think that would be appreciated more than what were getting with the living story now.

Are you aware that the “original” Southsun Cove is no longer there? I mean…the Karka nest looks completely different, some sections in the middle have been chanced in their landscape, and this was done during the “temporary content” that was the Living World event of the Karka invasion in defeating the Ancient Karka. There’s now a resort in the far South-West corner of the map, which a small army of Golems are hard at work building an Asura Gate that goes somewhere…? And now, related to the Flame and Frost, is the construction of a huge refugee camp in the North section of the island.

With each new Living World content update, we might get a bit of temporary story content, but there’s lasting changes to the world that give an enjoyable feeling for the players. Take for example how the old lighthouse is just rubble now and newer one is in a slow-construction that is progressing with each patch. The Lion’s Arch fountain did the same thing, and is NOT the one that launched with the game (that one got completely destroyed when the Mad King burst into our world on Oct 31st, 2012).

Looking at the Super Adventure Box, it may be temporary right now, but when World 2 is complete, it’ll return stacked with World 1 again, and then same with World’s 3 and 4. At that point, once it’s completed, Moto might find a more permanent location in Rata Sum to park the thing and keep it there.

And really, do we want stacked and stacked content that is one-through static junk that has NO MEANING WHAT SO EVER?! Or, do we want something that seems like it has meaning and a memorable place in the hearts of Tyrians everywhere? (Such as the encased, now-statue body of the Ancient Karka on Southsun Cove.) That kind of permanent meaning to the game that one can say “I was there, I did that.” is a great feeling.

It’s a fair point. Say what you will about the karka event, but it did, after its one time story, leave a substantial chunk of world in its wake. Nevermind that the world that it left was underdeveloped in comparison to its kickoff event, I’d expect non-holiday stroy arcs to leave behind substantial amounts of content. A new zone, a new dungeon, a new minigame, etc.

Its not that the Living World is a bad idea necessarily. It’s that the story arcs need to be designed to change the world and add permanent content first and foremost. Any temporary instances, events, limited release skins, etc. are a nice bonus for players to say “I was there” but the meat of each arc really should culminate in “Here, look at all this new stuff that’s gonna be here for a VERY long time!”

Barring that, if we’re going to see living story as an instanced approach from here on, it’d be a good idea to append “expired” content to the end of personal stories, perhaps by use of the storyteller/historian NPC approach, only without the unique rewards. This ensures that a new player, fresh to the game, can actually benefit from years of concurrent development while the people that were there “in the moment” can still experience and have trophies from having been there.

Eddard.2930:

Vulpis.8063:

OTOH…how about ArenaNet let the races kludge together something that allows players to visit a dreamstate or spirit realm or some such where these events are eternally active? That way new players can see a recreation of the event (and more importantly, get the achievements and loot from it! ;-) ), without having to keep them active world-wide. A Tyrian version of Paragon City’s Ouroboros, if you will..

Neat idea. Or they could make a library in LA. If you take out a specific book about a past event you can read about each event … but instead of “reading” about the event, you could play through the event and get the rewards.

Pretty much like the historian add-on in GW1. Where you go back in the past by a dozen years to see stuff like Saul D’allessio being taken by the Mursaat. and Togo putting an end to the Tengu rebellion.

I’m very much for leaving sort of an history of the world library in Divinties reach or where ever. (And please not another asura T_T) Where you could relive the events that have come and gone.

Perhaps it’s too early for this now, but I would very much see that as a future prospect.
Replaying events gone past for contents sake is a good thing. It’s a game after all.

On the other side though, from a purist view, I could imagine that content not being up permanently also can give a sense of community and history together. Things have past, and people will tell each other about what has happened. ANd why certain things are happening now.

But since they were comparing it with a tv show themselves, I can imagine that people want to see this stuff themselves. In modern days it’s not warranted anymore that a tv-serie can go, “Well we showed this episode only once in a secured environment, those that got to see it will keep you upto date with the next events, did you miss it? too bad, it will never return again, tough luck.”

It’s basically Exclusive content versus open content.

I don’t think anyone would mind if they put up a flame and frost mission pack on the gem store after everything has gone.

I both agree and disagree with what the OP has to say. Having temporary content can definitely make the game feel more alive for those actively involved. I have memories from early EQ days when they use to do the occasional one-off event and they really were awesome.

On the other hand, exclusive content is just that, exclusive. It’s great for those who got to see it, but doesn’t do anything for those who missed it. Someone else pointed out, we already have one “real” life to live once and only once. Having another one means we’re probably going to miss stuff, and missing stuff in a game almost seems silly.

The history book idea sounds like a great solution to this as it lets people that honestly want to just see the content, do just that. It wouldn’t have to offer much of a reward outside of some silver coins, where as the event done live would perhaps offer up something truly awesome.

It’s a double-edged sword and there is no right way of doing things. When I was super addicted to MMOs and spent 4 to 8 hours logged in a day, one-time content was all I wanted. Now that I log anywhere from 4 to 10 hours a week max and missing one time content is a very real possibility that is kind of annoying. I shouldn’t have to miss out on REAL life for a game.

With all that said, I love how there is no monthly cost to play and I still haven’t finished earning a full set of exotic gear or gotten 100% map completion. I’m thinking if I played this game like how I use to play EQ, I probably would of used all the content up in that first month. Playing more casually like I do, I still have lots to do.

The problem I’d like to see some how “fixed”, is getting events to start when only a couple of people are around. I’m one skill point shy of completely cursed shores but it can be challenging finding people to do these things, especially if they’ve done it already.

From what i know this whole Flame&Frost thing was an introduction for a big expansion?! Atleast that’s what i read somewhere.

Thing is…i am also getting tired of temporary stuff. Even if they are awesomely made, i want something drastic that actually changes the game (aka add or perma change).

they said that it changes the world permanently, but the content (events, story-missions) won’t stay. I guess Cragstead will become available in the open world outside of the instance… I don’t know.

it’s the introduction to the living story… not an expansion. They said that they aren’t working actively on an expansion yet, they want to make sure that the existing world is as well made as possible. I’m for this, but I miss the implementation of new events. Can’t see how a zone with 100 events becomes one with 300… something they intended to do in the past.

Well, to start, I like the “Living Story”.

I like the idea that there are things happening in Tyria that I will experience, and that new players will never experience. It really is like you’re living as your character, like it is a growing world.

I hope that the outcomes of Frost and Flame remain permanent in the world, that things are left that you will see and think, that’s from Frost and Flame, and newcomers will have no clue.

It’s like we’re building history.

However, I agree that this feels odd. The rate at which we receive this content (monthly) feels odd. It doesn’t feel like we’re being hastily attacked by the Dredge and Flame Legion alliances, it feels like we’re just waiting for the next part.

I also agree that the SAB content should NOT be leaving the game on the 30th of April. When are we going to get the new zones and worlds? Next April? SAB content should stay, and it should be updated very soon. Moto, for lore’s sake, should be shown developing this content. He mentions he thinks people should have SAB’s in their homes. Why doesn’t it expand to all the major cities? This is a great way of having it half one-time content and half permanent content.

The people who join GW2 later on may get to play SAB all the way through from any of the major cities without realising it was once just a little portal owned by Moto in Rata Sum. But it’s still there, for them to play. For all of us to play. But we had the pleasure of seeing it rise from what it is now all the way to the top, which new players won’t get.

The story of Flame and Frost is one I’d like to see start and end. For emersion’s sake. The Flame Alliance will rise, I want to defeat it, and I want it to be gone forever (unless they rise again). If I can just go do the content again, why did we defeat them? That’s not how a living world works.

But to make this content ‘permanent’, perhaps they could use the Hall of Monuments or a similar idea? New players can visit this place to watch and relive history. They can take part in instanced parts of Flame and Frost, and have the opportunity to get some of the achievements that they would be unable to get otherwise.

But, I don’t know. I loved Mad King’s Clocktower. But do I really want it to come back permanently? Do I really want infinite tries to complete it? Or is it better for it to remain as content that defeated me? That will come back next year for me to have another go? It’s debatable.

IMO, Living Storylines are just distractions for the antsy players. Many people complain about lack of new content, for not knowing the difficulty in creating such content. Thus, ANet releases lackluster Living Stories that obviously take FAR LESS effort to create than permanent content additions. They do this to appease a crowd of impatient gamers that don’t know the first thing about game design, while ANet continually works on permanent content to be added in the future. Living Story is not being added instead of permanent content, it is being added in the meantime because it takes comparably less effort to create.

I don’t know the facts or numbers, but these are just my observations of the corporate behaviour.

The problem isn’t map expansion. The game’s questing system is what makes hitting level 80 feel stagnant. Take a look at good old Runescape. The content that they introduce every week is not new areas but new quests and lore to add to the existing areas. Would you prefer a fluid, dynamic quest being added or map expansion. Who remembers the Old Wise Man robbing the Draynor bank and obliterating an NPC just to steal her Party Hat? I do. I saw that cutscene around 6 years ago. I just bought GW2 and I can’t remember any of the stuff between 10-20. I will always return back to RS to see what new quests they have added because frankly, they are the best I have seen in any MMO.

Xriah.5743:

Dark FQ.1038:

And again people are comparing Guild Wars 2 with other MMO’s

This game sucks compared to ice cream. It tastes like plastic and metal. Ice cream tastes like cold, chocolate goodness!

best comment in history. your my new favorite person

I really enjoy the living story and the missions with Braham and Rox. They are much better made than most missions in the personal story and i don’t really like the old “head to head” cinematics, i enjoyed the in-game cinematic much much more.

They really wasted alot of time on the old cinematics and out of nowhere they say "yeah the new in-game cinematics (what we had in GW1) are much better than the old “head to head” cinematics.

Most GW1 players asked for the in-game cinematics like in GW1 but instead they went to try something new that just didn’t work. Two talking heads with some moving art in the background and most of the times it art that doesn’t even fit the place you are in, you’re in maguuma and the art shows surroundings of the shiverpeak. Wow how real it feels, just cheap and not adding any feeling to the situation at all.

I like the new living world events, i hope they can make them more intense and interesting in the future and when they release expansions go with the in-game cinematics instead.

I can see the reason for why they didn’t go with in-game cinematics from the start, it would be too expensive but now after the launch they have made enough money to pay off their debts to NcSoft and use in-game cinematics instead.

Would really want them to change the original story with in-game cinematics, but most likely won’t happen. Just feels like a waste of effort when they do something half kitten as something big as the story telling.

Sorry if i went a bit off-topic but i had to get it out.

Zoid.2568:

They are much better made than most missions in the personal story and i don’t really like the old “head to head” cinematics, i enjoyed the in-game cinematic much much more.

Tell me about it! Much love for your post. They said in an blog post (about the new F&F quests) that they’re moving from the ‘talking heads’ to the cinematic format. It gives SUCH a better feel to it, like it was in GW1. I feel so much more involved in them. During my personal story – which may I add I’m yet to complete even at level 80 – I’d often tab out, drift off or whatever during the cutscenes because they were so… not immersive? That made no sense but you get my drift.

It’s a shame they can’t (and more importantly won’t) overhaul the Personal Story completely, and turn it into something more enjoyable and worthwhile, but at least missions we’ll get in the future should be like they have been in Rox and Braham’s quests. Here’s to hoping we get this format entirely in the first big expansion!

^ Yeah that’s the word. Immersive, the story telling need more of that.

TheDraco.3965:

As a latecomer I was honestly baffled when my friends told me about Karka invasion and how it was a one time event. How on earth would you think that is a good idea in the first place and even CONTINUE to make more one time events as “content”. It reminds me of Square Enix’s attitude of “we don’t care if you dont want it, we’re gonna make it and you’re gonna like it”

I personally love the one time events, I dont want an ancient karka event happening every hour, itd lose its authenticity. The one time events create something special for all the current players and sometimes even leave things behind to remind of of what hapend, like skins and zones. I do like permanent content also, id like a new class,new weapon,new race,new zones,new dungoens, and all of that too. But you cant get everything how you want it.

Deamhan.9538:

ANet has always had Holiday events and they are annual. This game is what? 7 months old? GW1 came out in 2005, with Sorrows Furnace released a few months later, while GW Factions came out in 2006.

WoW was released in November of 2004. Burning Crusades came out in 2007. In that 3 year period, what new content was released? Any? Other than new gear, what new events, missions, dungeons, etc.?

Well this isnt 2004/2005/2006/2007. Welcome to 2013.

Comparing your current product or service to what your competition did years ago is the best way to kill your business, in any field.

And if you compare to other current successful MMOs (yea, to WoW, are there any others besides GW2 and WoW?), you’ll see they have their own take of “living story” running since September that added alot of content in the form of new quests, raids and areas. All that interspersed with six or more seasonal or holiday events and a monthly carnival (the latter is a brilliant idea that GW2 should steal btw).

P.S. To pre-empt the go back to WoW, I quit that during BC in 2006 and dont plan to go back. But I dont think blindfolded faith in A.Net is the way to go, they are delivering a bit too slow on the meaningful content side.

Could not possibly agree more with the sentiment of the OP, having played since late beta/early launch, and having seen how other MMO’s have developed (or failed to) over the years. Monthly events are nice, Fractals as a persistent thing was nicer. For some strange reason though, countless hours which could have been spent on effectively timeless game content have instead been used for…a tribute to 8-bit gaming via a time-restricted event and relating weapon skins? I can appreciate nostalgia, time-limited events, and all that other stuff. But having leveled four 80’s, done the best-in-slot thing, a PvE player is left with much to be desired as far as content goes.

For those who have a problem with comparing MMO’s. Get over yourself. Comparing one MMORPG to another, regardless of their age, is absolutely and undisputably valid.

It would most likely be a different story if comparing a MMORPG to a RTS or FPS but even then, that depends on what it is that is being compared.

Of course any MMORPG will be compared to WoW. While many MMOs get their turn in the spotlight, WoW is still in the spotlight after all these years. It has become the standard and no amount of a grade school tantrum will change that.

However, as far as a living world goes, a world that changes, a better comparison is to Skyrim.

I’ve heard the lame excuses before. ‘This is an MMO, and that is a single player game so it’s easier to have the character have an impact on the game world’.

Listen, it’s not easier or harder. They do it for single player games and not for MMOs because with MMOs they want every player to experience the same game. They want to make it “fair” and give every player, from first release to the player that buys it a year from now, the same game experience. That’s it, that’s all it is. That is why a single player game world like Skyrim can have the player have an actual permanent impact, and why MMO game worlds are frozen in time. The sooner they shed themselves of this, the better off they will be.

No, MMOs do not offer more freedom either. In fact, TES games give the player more freedom of choice than any MMO I’ve played has ever done. Except for EVE.

With Skyrim, you could jump into a quest at any point along it. Talk to the npc or just happen to come across the cave where the bandit leader is. Also, once you cleared out a cave, after a few days it would become occupied again. Which may or may not be tied into another quest.

Dynamically generated quests. If we can have randomly generated 3D game worlds that make use of some algorithms and a random number seed, then why not randomly generated quests. Only the seed wouldn’t be just a random number (you would end up with multiple quests over lapping and bugging each other out), but instead would be generated based on various factors. Hence, why it would be dynamically generated.

The trick is to make use of some creative programming. You want the game to develop the new content for you. Even if by talking to the npc, them talking to you is text based. Save the voice acting for the bigger, developer made content.

But really, I would be content to simply see the npc’s have a day/night routine to them. Some NPCs work nights, others work day (with more working day than night). Some NPCs going to the local tavern for happy hour, and some closing up shop for a short time to have lunch. Guards should be running shifts. It shouldn’t be the same npc standing guard 24/7 but rather it should be two npc’s swapping every 12 in game hours.

They already have the day/night cycle, why not give the npc’s a day/night routine to follow. That one thing alone would have a massive impact on giving the world the illusion of being a living breathing world. In fact this change would have a bigger impact than them constantly developing new content and it is something they would only have to develop once and leave it be.

Expansions will take some time, Gw2 is far more complex than Gw were and is.

I can understand the temp content.

But if you back up and see the big picture you’ll notice this wasn’t one of the Major Expansions the ANet usually does.

Dont get me wrong, this content rocks, and it gives a lot to do, but more zones, classes, and races are sure to come. Perminate content needn’t be worried about, the games not even a year old yet.

Eddard.2930:

Vulpis.8063:

OTOH…how about ArenaNet let the races kludge together something that allows players to visit a dreamstate or spirit realm or some such where these events are eternally active? That way new players can see a recreation of the event (and more importantly, get the achievements and loot from it! ;-) ), without having to keep them active world-wide. A Tyrian version of Paragon City’s Ouroboros, if you will..

Neat idea. Or they could make a library in LA. If you take out a specific book about a past event you can read about each event … but instead of “reading” about the event, you could play through the event and get the rewards.

Rather like the books you fill out in GW1 for doing (or re-doing) the various missions (in either normal or hard mode) and turn in for a reward when it’s at least half done? ;-)

Xriah.5743:

I can’t help but feel like it’s a strange idea to spend development time on temporary content.

If you look back at older MMOs like Everquest or World of Warcraft or City of Heroes(RIP), they contain a seemingly bottomless pit of content. Years and years of updates and expansions stacked on top of one another make for a wealth of content that newer MMO’s can only hope to obtain in time. Even if it ends up being largely unused as the players keep up with the ever advancing endgame, it allows newer players to see and explore the past. Kind of like how the Southsun Cove is now. It’s fallen into obscurity, but newer players who wern’t around for the event have the oppourtunity to discover the area and explore it.

There are still so many areas of this game that can be filled out. Why spend time on this when you can make more permanent additions to your game and use them as selling points? Just from past updates, I get the impression that the dev team is spread thin enough as it is without tacking on tasks that only have a temporary impact. Spend those resources elsewhere like patch QA, bugfixing, mini games, new zones, polishing the personal story, balancing skills and traits, etc. I think that would be appreciated more than what were getting with the living story now.

I think it’s a great idea the way they are doing it honestly. It actually keeps people playing their game and interested. While some of it may not be permanent, you can bet they are also working on permanent content as well. I mean, hell, there are still 8 zones or something that they can play with and unlock for us. All those games you mentioned didn’t start out with all that content, but slowly and painfully developed over extended periods of time. Also, all those games were P2P, its a different dynamic when your game is F2P ish.

Remember pre-launch, when people where saying how different GW2 was going to be.? In other MMORPGs there’s pressure to log in all the time, but fans kept saying that wasn’t going to be true of GW2.

1. No sub! You don’t have to log in a lot to feel like you got your money worth!
2. Power plateau! No need to log in to stay on the loot treadmill and “keep up”!

Since then we’ve gotten:

1. Dailies. If you miss them, you missed a chance at a laurel you need if you’re going to get BiS gear.
2. A new item tier, Ascended(!), starting an, albeit very gradual, gear treadmill.
3. Limited time content. Better log on sometime in the next 13 days, or you won’t ever be able to do this dungeon.

sigh

WatchTheShow.7203:

When I read OP’s post I immediately thought “Buy new expansion, exhaust all content within a month. Buy next new expansion, exhaust all content within a month. Repeat this process for years.” What do you end up with? $100s down the drain and a bunch of empty maps no one goes to. Those other MMOs you spoke of not only charge you to play their game per month, but also require you to buy new content and expansions? Just so you can grind, grind, grind and work, work, work? Hello, this is reality here saying your free time is worth so much more than that! With Guild Wars 2, you get an evolving world (not just “new maps” thrown in there), for free (unlike expansions which cost up to $40-60?), and it runs for as long as the devs want it to go on for (unlike other games where you wear out all content within 3 weeks).

How is living story any different? You log on for an hour every 3 weeks to finish the next step, forget the game for another 3 weeks, log on for an hour.

What you said is the same premise of “Buy new expansion exhaust all content within a month” except it’s “Download new patch every 3 weeks, exhaust all content within an hour.” and that content isn’t even permanent.

One of the big things that made my friends and I interested was the fact that this wasn’t a WoW style treadmill where you need to play every week to keep up with the content. It really feels like that’s been disappearing, little by little.

I guess this is the week for ignoring stuff like Guild missions, because that is new permanent content and some of it is very good (particularly once you get past bounties). I love the guild rushes. I think they’re great entertainment. I haven’t gotten to the last two types yet, we’re still working on unlocking them.

There will be permanent content added and temporary content.

Let me tell you what happens with this wealth of stuff to do in most games. Most of it sits all but unused because people don’t run it any more. New people come in for the group stuff and can’t get groups for it. It becomes frustrating for those new people.

The one big advantage to having timely content (aside from getting people into the habit of following the game more closely) is that it places most people in one place at the same time. It was really easy to get groups for the Mad King instance or MF. Not see easy to get groups for story mode dungeons, however.

This is an interesting strategy because it solves two of the main problems other MMOs experience. Obsolete content that’s still sitting around and getting people to the same location so that we can all play together.

All I know is that they had better step it up for the next part of the living story. F&F was such a joke. I took a 3-4 month break from GW2 to play some SWTOR and came back this past Friday. I did all (and I mean all, achievements and everything included) the F&F content in about 3-4 hours (minus the one achievement I got when I clicked on a bonfire Sunday). I mean seriously? ~4 months of content completed in 3-4 hours? What a joke and waste of time. The story telling and immersion during the F&F stuff was pitiful as well. I couldn’t care less for Braham and Rox. Especially Braham…the weird, kitten, emo norn child who has mommy issues. Rox was at least tolerable, but by no means a worthwhile character to get involved in. And the rewards for all of the F&F stuff? Please…don’t make me laugh. The best (and really only good thing) that came out of the F&F content was the infinite use pickaxe….but of course you have to use gems in order to get it! Go figure.

All I can say is that I hope Anet steps it up with the next chain of living story content or this game is going no where fast. I held out until all F&F content was released to try and give myself something to do (I was at least hoping to get a few days worth of play out of it)…but alas…it was nothing more than an evening of mediocre fun at best. sigh