Guild Wars 2

I understand the idea of if content alters the way the world is that it makes no sense for the events of the past to linger visibly to everyone who had already participated in the things that altered the world. But as far as I can tell other than a few lingering NPCs there is no lasting alteration of the world. Now with the current southsun cove there is new stuff/presence in the new zone that up until now was a more or less meaningless zone that we could reminiscence of our participation in the karka event. But this is not my point of posting just the lead in.

I don’t get the reasoning the developers have for taking tons of time and effort into creating content that will ever only be seen once and not by everyone who is and will ever play the game. I missed out on participating in the final portion of frost and flame which also happened to be the best content created of that part of the living story. I watched video play through of each part. In fact it seems to me the final group dungeon is possibly one of the best things developed for the game. That unfortunately only a small portion of the total players who will ever play the game will have gotten to actually play it.

Yet game design technology exists and could have been used to make this content change the world and yet persist so that everyone (current and future players) could experience the content. For example several games (LotRO for example) use one such thing. They show things only relevant to the character based on their progress in the game in the persistent world. Everyone else who has already done that content and it no longer makes sense that they see it don’t see it. This could have and should have been done with the living story content we seen with flame and frost.

I don’t know what effort it would take to transform the content to be that way but it would be nice for the sake of current and future players who hadn’t gotten too play the content to get to play the content. The design of the personal story is one such way they encapsulated story telling so that they were only showing what was relevant you and not to others too. So the instances parts of the living story would be nothing more than just like them. So once your character has done them you would only get to see them again if you were helping someone else do them.

Some might argue that somehow making content so that everyone who ever plays the game will get to experience playing it alters their individual experience of that content. But by using design technology that hides the content from everyone that it isn’t relevant to it simply doesn’t hold true. And the content remains just as special as if it was there once and is forever gone. Remember you don’t have to repeat the content if you don’t want to, but there is no reason to make it so that other can’t when they want to. And leave out those who weren’t around to be a part of it. Just to somehow make those who were there feel superior for having been there. After all that is all that is left when you don’t use what is available to be used, so that everyone who will ever play the game can play the content.

I invite civilized and constructive discussion on this and ask that the typical anti-constructive comments toss at those with negative constructive criticism be refrained from being posted. I really liked what we got for the living story portion up to when I was unable to play. It was kept around so that we were able to play the old as the new was added. So there was a huge shock to have seen that this changed after the instances. Especially since I was told that the content was going to remain as the living story continued.

Keep in mind not everyone reads everything ever said. And when there is a place that every player does see, the game client, such important info is not made though it. After all if up to and throughout the month of april there was a persistent reminder at the top of the list that at may xx the living story up to that point will no longer be available then those of us who were caught unaware by the sudden removal of content would not have missed out if we were able to alter things in our lives to be able to do it. Leaving those who circumstances such as military duty and those who haven’t even bought the game yet etc that were unable to play the content left out. Taking us back to the point on the design technology we have available that wasn’t used so that we get both a changing world and at the same time make the content so that everyone who will ever plays the game able to play the content.

Fresh content is best, and makes the most sense to the plot. For example, is anyone who has finished their personal story still excited about facing Zhaitan?

Not really fond of the idea to have old plot stuff reappear again but if it must then I hope either:

a) It is just cutscenes so people can get the story. No playable parts.
b) It is just instances wherein all XP gain and loot are removed from them. They are after all just memories supposed to be left in the past and only remain so that people can participate in the story.

In a way that is what I’m talking about. You see all the story in this game is only playable once on your toon. Giving us the choice to play it again on a new toon or help others who are in progress. And it wouldn’t be reappearing, those who already did it can’t see it. Because it would be hidden from them and only visible to those yet to complete it. As simple as just showing relevant NPCs. To more than that. I will have to sit down and look at the achievements to go into detail relevant to the F&F living story portion. We’ll see what discussion takes place and maybe I can mix that in the discussion so I don’t write another long post. I think a lot of the people I talked to who are upset at not being able to finish this part of the living story are afraid to come post.

To address the two points. A.) This could be something available once completed, but I don’t see how it’d be fair or justifiable to players who couldn’t be there to get a youtube video like second best. B.) There is no need for instances with the previously mention design technology. Except for complex storytelling they already encapsulate(d) in instances. Removing loot rewards for players not at release isn’t fair or justifiable either.

The living story is nothing more than a version of the personal story that only happens once ever. I can see how it make sense if it were a single player offline game. But then anyone who ever buys the game in the past, now or in the future then gets to play the content. Leading back to the why was it done so that only a handful of players get to ever play it. It’s like making a game or a movie so that only 100,000 people can ever play it or see it and then never able to be seen again. To me that is an oxymoron. As a developer one wants as many people as possible to want to play their the content they design. Designing something that is counter productive to that makes no sense. The end result can be achieved without the need to have that counter productive (oxymoron) design.

I hope to see this kind of content made better for more people. I think they are on the right track. They didn’t do the one time only at this hour or you miss out like the past events. Which was a huge hit of negativity they took with that. And I really liked that we were given a lot more time. Unfortunately not made clear upfront. I think it would be great if the use the a fore mentioned design technology to keep the previous living story available so those who missed it or haven’t even played the game yet but will.

Heya Jia, the only way I can see them being able to do this is having all replayable content in an instance that can only be accessed by characters who yet lack achievements from missed temporary content, sort of like an event overflow server – only those servers will be permanent and… per event? Once they complete the tasks within, they can no longer return/replay it. Mabinogi uses a similar structure and I think it works pretty well. In that game party leaders who have not done content can bring in players who -have-, meaning there’s no shortage of people to assist you.

However this would obviously be a huge strain on resources and hardware as time goes on, but really depends on ANet’s budget since the living story affects numerous parts of the world and not just separate instanced bits like what Mabinogi has.

Having non-dungeony/instanced replayable bits in normal servers won’t work either. You can see from the forums now about people complaining that the dredge sonic cannons and some molten alliance forces are still active, despite having been shut down storywise. Having some people see enemies and others that can’t will not just put undue strain on people who want the world to move forward, but is also highly exploitable. For example:

Oh no that big monster boss thing has appeared! It’s kicking player A’s behind, but not to worry – since it can never target or hurt player B who has already completed the content player A has semi-invulnerability, or at least a guardian angel to keep reviving him. Also it must look wierd to see people getting downed from invisible foes, and frustrating that player B can’t help player A more directly in defeating the enemy.

In short I think it would be “nice” (albeit unnecessary) to have time warped servers for past events but to ANet it simply may not be profitable as most people chew up content as soon as it is released and would have little reason to go replay it even if they could. Instead they rightly more focus on giving people new reasons to play in the game and give players something to look forward to.

Even if we don’t yet know what that is. :P

Strangely showing something to one player as something different to another player isn’t a strain on server side. That data resides client side and the client PC takes that load. What was previously in the living story as DEs could become instanced. Or they could make the DE mobs appear different and give the same exact DE a different appearance to those who already did it. I think we could creatively come up with an idea in that regard. Now as for something as big as the super karka boss from that event. By instancing it and at the same time allowing the massive raiding style that event had is completely possible by raising the limit of players allowed in the instance to near infinite. And to keep a massive raid of players doing it at the same time the event would be time restricted to occur like once ever 3 months or something. If they were to do future events like that and make it so that if you miss it or aren’t even a player yet miss out.

Sorry Jia, I’m still sticking too having each “zone” instanced if they decide to have replayable. A truck load of mobs will generate server lag regardless if you see them or not. Maybe the asura gates can travel back in time? :P

So you can have for example:
Wayfarer Foothills
Wayfarer Foothills (Molten Alliance)

Don’t think it’s going to be worth the cash for ANet to have the extra servers though. But hey, I’m sure there are more creative dudes on the forum than me who may have better ideas?

If for some strange reason having DEs stick around so that presumably a zone ends up having more and more of them pile up then yes the solution is turn to instancing events instead of making them dynamic. Not ideal if the idea is that by having them occur in the persistent world somehow makes them feel more real. Personally I don’t distinguish between the two since they have in essence made every zone an instance. But they are public persistent instances.

So due to all the seams we already have a few more seams are not unreasonable to have. Especially considering we can expect as the game grows to new areas of the world being added we will get plenty more seams. So if using instances is the best way to handle the DE parts of the LS we have had to day then count me in support of doing so. But as far as the NPCs and static objects other games have proven that showing such things to only those they are relevant to are not burdensome to the servers or clients.

My reply is based on the assumption that temporary content is a stated goal of Anet for various reasons. Their entire concept going forward is having these stretches of temporary content to create a feeling of urgency for the temporary related cash shop items and rare status symbols in the acquired items, achievements and titles that are no longer available.

So how do they achieve that goal and still reduce the impression that they are only making throw-away content thats only good for a few weeks each? Imo the solution lies in having each chapter have permanent additions to the world as a result of what happened during the living story.

For example after F&F they could have added the hatchery and cragstead as parts of the open world and expanded them a bit with a skill challenge or vista and an event or two. Cragstead during the victory celebration was nice, in the state of rebuilding and some npcs even recognizing my deeds during the living story. Loved the single wolf shaman with the wolf pup in the cave, too. Do that for every chapter and keep it in the game as part of the open world. Because as far as I can tell cragstead is still instanced and now you can only ‘recap’ the fight there.

Depending on how much you keep as permanent as opposed to temporary, newer players and especially returning players shouldnt feel like nothing changes in the world and that there are no additions. Coming back after a year of living story done the way I describe would mean big and small additions in several zones, so people have that sense of a changing world that Anet states as their goal. Right now though? Not feeling much change in Wayfarer foothills and the changes on southsun feel more like they were required because that place was only half-finished before.

Mastruq, Anet have all ready said some ’’temporary’’ content parts will remain permanent and we will see changing landscapes and zones but there building up to it, which is a good thing so i wouldn’t worry the further the living stories go on on the more content temporary and permanent we will get.

for example its subtle but unless the southsun’s new settlements are destroyed by the 28th patch they will remain permanent and some events i am sure will remain permanent too.

as for flame and frost well….the facilities where underground and we have shut those down so there’s not much they could change on the surface, the refugee’s have settled (or being held hostage to a degree) in southsun, lets see what happens next, F&F was a test, Anet have said that themselves somewhere to see if what they want to achieve could be done, the scale will be getting larger and larger, if not then i will be mind boggled.

Please leave in the content instead of dropping it out every month. The flame and frost dungeon was FUN. I hate to see time spent on making a fun dungeon, cool items, etc go down the drain. I don’t get to do the content again. New people NEVER will get to do it. The game never adds more things to do as it is added in then deleted, rinse, repeat. It takes time to do this stuff right. I’d really like to see it available to do again.

I agree with the OP. It really sucks that I am missing out on this really cool content. To me this should also be part of stuff I can explore/do when I reach 80. Sort of like end game stuff to do.

I think it’s a shame that a lot of new players will not get to see these living stories in action. Why put all the time and effort in making some great content that you will only take away after a certain period of time?

I am sure it’s probably complicated but still the idea of a living and changing world seems corky when a lot of people miss out on the content and don’t even know what happend.

I guess I am more just disappointed because I don’t like missing out on content especially if their is a good story behind it, and it almost feels like ANets attitude towards the situation is “Well if you missed out, too bad, hopefully you catch the next piece of living story, but if you miss that also, well not really sure what to tell ya”.

They do NOT need to make this content vanish. I all but quit the game when they removed the F&F content because I enjoyed it more than anything else they put out so far. It was fun getting to see new stories unfold and the new dungeon was great fun. The majority of the group I played with has moved on to other games after that content was taken away. I personally think it could be easy for Anet to keep the old content by simply adding historians to a zone like one of the major cities or the EOTN zone where you can go to get hotm rewards and making that a place we could use to access the elapsed living world content as “new histories” of Tyria much the same way as the historians with the books worked in the first game.

CopperPhoenix.8592:

They do NOT need to make this content vanish. I all but quit the game when they removed the F&F content because I enjoyed it more than anything else they put out so far. It was fun getting to see new stories unfold and the new dungeon was great fun. The majority of the group I played with has moved on to other games after that content was taken away. I personally think it could be easy for Anet to keep the old content by simply adding historians to a zone like one of the major cities or the EOTN zone where you can go to get hotm rewards and making that a place we could use to access the elapsed living world content as “new histories” of Tyria much the same way as the historians with the books worked in the first game.

I think this is a fantastic idea! The living world can progressively change but if you want to see how it changed or the reason why it changed, you can go to this historian who will teleport you to a zone and you can play through past history of the living world and see how things unfolded.

This IMO would add a great amount of content as well as being just a plain awesome idea for the game and give it life!

CopperPhoenix.8592:

They do NOT need to make this content vanish. I all but quit the game when they removed the F&F content because I enjoyed it more than anything else they put out so far. It was fun getting to see new stories unfold and the new dungeon was great fun. The majority of the group I played with has moved on to other games after that content was taken away. I personally think it could be easy for Anet to keep the old content by simply adding historians to a zone like one of the major cities or the EOTN zone where you can go to get hotm rewards and making that a place we could use to access the elapsed living world content as “new histories” of Tyria much the same way as the historians with the books worked in the first game.

I agree 100%, I just got back online after a few months, I broke my mouse hand and couldn’t play for a while. I missed the last part of frost and flame, so I was a bit ticked off that I would never get to play it. I talked myself into playing again today only to log and and see I missed an entire new set of content. So now I’m trying to read the forums figuring out if Anet has any plans to let us replay it and it looks like a big NO. I think that is insane. I like the idea of the world changing, but why there is no way to go back into a old instanced shard to participate in the story just drives me nuts. Even if they needed time to develop the system, I don’t see why they couldn’t make an extra server you could guest to that does nothing but cycle the old content every 2 weeks or so.

Anyway I have no plans to stick around if I’m missing out on content. I thought this was suppose to be a game, not a job where I have to show up daily or get left behind.

I didn’t read every wall of text in here, but I see one issue with this: the Living Story is a story. It makes no sense to first do secret at southsun and then flame and frost for example. You need to play them in a chronological order. But then, if we made all new players do that, it would mean that to play the currently running event they had to play through all past events first. I don’t see a solution to this.

You are right, Veldan, doing them out of order wouldnt make sense. Thats why I at least want the results to be permanent, like the changes to Southsun. F&F failed to deliver in that regard thats why I pushed that notion a few times since then.

About doing things out of order though: The entire dungeon chain is the ongoing story of Destiny’s Edge getting back together and facing Zhaitan in then end (with our help). Doing them out of order presents the same issue, so obviously matching it chronologically is a secondary concern, if any, to Anet.

I was willing to taking a break from GW2, a part from spvp with my friends, and the fact I am forced to play in order to finish the living story events made me really upset. It is very frustrating to be forced to log in and play, even if you are not in the mood to do it. I finished and enjoyed the F&F event, but I wasnt able to play and finish southstone cove stuff. I wanted to play other game, and just do spvp in GW2, (and this is what I did, in fact), but now I missed achievements and other stuffs. I dont like to be forced to play, and this produce the opposite effect, instead of making me log in to play, it makes me abandon the game. Also because, when I log, I would like to pvp or complete some dungeon, and instead I feel forced to do repetitive and boring things, because, otherwise, I am left behind. The result is that I can not play the game at my pace, and I have the feeling of losing important part of it, just because the time I can dedicate to GW2 is limited and I can not do everything in the game.
I really would like that ALL the events could come back in some way. Maybe make them temporary, some months an event come back, another month another one. Or give us the possibility to replay them, in some way. I dont like the idea of not seing the content because I can not or I want not play in a particular part of the year.

Everyone keeps saying they are forced to do things in game – free yourselves from those shackles. Nobody but yourself is forcing you to do anything.

I do know where you are coming from, though. I had my take of mild gaming OCD in another game. It really is something you need to recognize for what it is and work to overcome it. Otherwise leaving for another game isnt gonna change the situation because you carry your baggage with you.