Guild Wars 2

DISCLAIMER: This is just a discussion thread about the Pale Tree’s avatar. Is she a physical body or is she a spirit? I moved the conversation over here because the Wardens thread was getting derailed with stuff about the Pale Tree. This is not discussion is not a contest. This is a thread to share ideas on this subject.

(NOTE: Konig’s post comes from this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Spoiler-Alert-Srsly-Wardens-Srsly/first#post4371047 )

I’m moving my response to his post here because this subject deserves its own thread.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that in the past it was explicitly stated to be a mere manifestation. Something “physical” is not a “manifestation”. She ever calls the avatar “the spirit of the Pale Tree that surrounds you.”

1. an act of manifesting.
2. the state of being manifested.
3. outward or perceptible indication; materialization: At first there was no manifestation of the disease.
4. a public demonstration, as for political effect.
5. Spiritualism. a materialization.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manifestation?s=t

“I am the avatar, the spirit of the Pale Tree that surrounds you. I am the mother of the sylvari race. I am Tyria’s ally. "
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness#Dialogues

“I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine.” (to non-sylvari)
“It is by the love of my children that I flourish. This manifestation I use for visitors cannot express the depth of my roots or the breadth of my branches, both here and in the Dream. "
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree#Dialogue

I’m sorry, but it IS a ghostly apparition. She says so herself. It is not physical. Anet’s writers flubbed up there.

It is possible that Anet is retconing (a.k.a. changing) Sylvari lore. This is not the first time an MMO has retcon lore. MapleStory also had inconsistent lore in that game’s early years. The young players noticed the story mistakes in MapleStory, and they brought the problem to the attention of the devs. The MS devs handled the problem in a very interesting way. They gave the kids some hints that “a mysterious force” was to blame for the game’s problems. They never told the kids that the Black Mage was to blame UNTIL the release of the Big Bang patch. (http://maplestory.wikia.com/wiki/MapleStory:_Big_Bang)

My recommendation: #BlameScarlet or #BlameTaimi (If Anet is going to follow in MS’s footsteps, I bet you there’s another Scarlet in a dimension next door who is messing with Tyria’s history & mechanics at the moment. Ceara in our world did mess around with portals and things related to Quantum Physics. Another possible explanation would be Taimi’s tinkering with Scarlet’s old toys caused some inconsistencies to show up in Tyria.)

In the meantime, I want to see those words in-game for myself.

There are some inconsistencies here but I suspect there will be some explanation that does not break the lore. The magical workings of the the Pale Tree are largely unknown.

My guess would be that the Pale Tree grew the avatar as a manifestation of itself in the same way the sylvari are grown. The avatar seems to have a shared mind with the Pale Tree but we don’t know if the avatar also developed her own character. We don’t know whether another manifestation can be grown, whether there could already be other avatars that we don’t know about, or whether other Sylvari could become an avatar. We don’t know what the effect on the Pale Tree would be if the avatar physically died. From the reaction of the characters I’d assume that the avatar can die and if the Pale Tree manifests itself again then it will be a new avatar with a new life.

It seems as if the attack on the chamber left the avatar wounded but we don’t know if these are physical wounds or a reflection of Mordremoth’s attack on her roots (or whatever). The menders seemed very vague about how they could cure the avatar or the Pale Tree. No characters were to talking about new defenses for the tree either.

I went to the Grove just now on my third character, Amthyst Sandelwood. The Pale Tree did tell my human character the same info that is mentioned in the wiki (See the screenshot below).

The Pale Tree does use the word “manifestation”. It’s interesting to note that word does have different meanings in both American and British English.

In American English, manifestation means the spiritual embodiment of an abstract idea, ghost, or other spiritual being (like God). (See http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manifestation)

In British English, manifestation can mean a physical embodiment of an abstract idea or spiritual being. (See http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/manifestation) It seems the Pale Tree is using the British definition of the word. Anet may have used a British writer to create Mama Tree’s lines.

If you’re wondering why I’m using two different dictionaries, it’s because Oxford is not a recognized dictionary on the US’s west coast. Why? The US and Great Britain are slowly diverging cultures. Our languages have been changing over time. That’s why British books will often have an American “translation” (the Harry Potter series is a good example). Certain British words don’t carry the same meaning or context in American English.

Since we know that the Pale Tree’s avatar is an actual body, manifestation isn’t the correct word in American English. The correct phrase is “physical embodiment”. The second line in the screenshot should say, “This avatar is a physical body I use to put visitors at ease.” To folks in the US, those words would communicate that the Pale Tree’s avatar is an actual physical body.

This is not the first time that American gamers have misunderstood the info in GW2. We really need to have American game writers to create the lines for the NA version.

Stooperdale.3560:

There are some inconsistencies here but I suspect there will be some explanation that does not break the lore. The magical workings of the the Pale Tree are largely unknown.

True. Mistakes happen. A game this large does need folks who can help make sure that all info in the game is consistent. That takes alot of time to do. Like I said, Maplestory faced the same problem and their story mistakes were huge compared to this game. Even WoW has this problem from time to time. That’s why it’s important to screenshot the mistakes and bring the problem to the devs’ attention.

“I am the avatar, the spirit of the Pale Tree that surrounds you. I am the mother of the sylvari race. I am Tyria’s ally. "

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness#Dialogues

I think that rather settles it, no?

kta.6502:

It seems the Pale Tree is using the British definition of the word. Anet may have used a British writer to create Mama Tree’s lines.

-snip-

Since we know that the Pale Tree’s avatar is an actual body, manifestation isn’t the correct word in American English.

And where, pray tell, do you get this conclusion from, exactly? You seem to present this out of thin air. You just present the two meanings of the word, and then go and say “it’s obvious this is the proper meaning” without any backing or proof. Do you have proof she’s physical? One that contradicts her own words and proves her own words wrong?

She tells us herself that the avatar is spiritual. And aside from the blunder of Episode 4’s finale, nothing ever indicates otherwise (and before you go with some “she isn’t see through” – well, neither is Mad King Thorn, who is very much a spirit).

Furthermore, ArenaNet always uses American English. Check all the various spellings, phrases, and so forth. Even though sylvari tend to have a British accent, Anet uses American English. It is humor, not humour. It is judgment not judgement. Etc. And the reason for this is quite simple: ArenaNet is based in America. It is not British made, unlike Harry Potter. So if ArenaNet requires a translation for other dialects of English, they’d need one for British English, not one for American English.

kta.6502:

The Pale Tree does use the word “manifestation”. It’s interesting to note that word does have different meanings in both American and British English.

In American English, manifestation means the spiritual embodiment of an abstract idea, ghost, or other spiritual being (like God). (See http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manifestation)

In British English, manifestation can mean a physical embodiment of an abstract idea or spiritual being. (See http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/manifestation) It seems the Pale Tree is using the British definition of the word. Anet may have used a British writer to create Mama Tree’s lines.

The definition you claim to have gotten from merriam-webster.com doesn’t actually appear on the page you linked to. I guess you’re paraphrasing.

The full definition on that page in fact includes the following:

d : an occult phenomenon; specifically : materialization

Looking up “materialization” (linked on the “manifestation” page) will show you this:

1
: the action of materializing or becoming materialized
2
: something that has been materialized; especially : apparition

So actually, the concept of the avatar being a material being (a manifested spirit) is valid in American English as well as British English. (In as far as Merriam-Webster is considered a valid authority.)

The avatar is a magical entity similar to a ghost. It represents the Tree…otherwise we’d be talking to a root or something. Not sure i see what the issue is. Not even sure why there should be any Wardens standing around the Avatar..they should be patching up the broken parts of the tree itself.

I don’t think there is any contradiction in the A Light in the Darkness dialogue. We could be speaking to the physical manifestation of the avatar and she tells us she will be in the dream only in spirit. I don’t see any problem with the Pale Tree having both a physical manifestation in Tyria and spirit manifestations within the dream at the same time. The Shadow of the Dragon might be able to do the same.

I’d also like to point out the PoI name for where the Avatar stands:

The Soul of the Pale Tree

So in A Light in the Darkness we have the avatar calling herself the spirit of the Pale Tree, and the PoI at the avatar being dubbed “the Soul” of the Pale Tree.

Stooperdale.3560:

I don’t think there is any contradiction in the A Light in the Darkness dialogue. We could be speaking to the physical manifestation of the avatar and she tells us she will be in the dream only in spirit. I don’t see any problem with the Pale Tree having both a physical manifestation in Tyria and spirit manifestations within the dream at the same time. The Shadow of the Dragon might be able to do the same.

Uh… that dialogue from A Light in the Darkness is the avatar explaining who she is, not how we will be in the Dream.

In full:

We ask: “Excuse me, but who are you?”

She says, in response: “I am the avatar, the spirit of the Pale Tree that surrounds you. I am the mother of the sylvari race. I am Tyria’s ally.”

She isn’t talking about the Dream, but what she, the avatar, is.

Roybe.5896:

The avatar is a magical entity similar to a ghost. It represents the Tree…otherwise we’d be talking to a root or something. Not sure i see what the issue is. Not even sure why there should be any Wardens standing around the Avatar..they should be patching up the broken parts of the tree itself.

The issue – and this whole discussion – stems from how the wardens try to mend the Avatar of the Tree, and the description of the Avatar if you talk to her while she’s on the ground (in that it says she’s “barely breathing” – souls/spirits/ethereal manifestations don’t breath).

Basically, the problem is what you said you don’t know why it happens.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And where, pray tell, do you get this conclusion from, exactly? You seem to present this out of thin air. You just present the two meanings of the word, and then go and say “it’s obvious this is the proper meaning” without any backing or proof. Do you have proof she’s physical? One that contradicts her own words and proves her own words wrong?

Yes. Look at the first two screenshots below. I don’t know about you, but I see a comatose body lying before my character. If she were a spirit (like the Ascalonian ghosts), she would of disappeared AFTER she went down. When the Ascalonian ghosts are slain, they disappear immediately.

BTW, if the Tree’s avatar is a spirit, how come she’s breathing? Spirits don’t need air, and they don’t go into comas either.

To me, the Pale Tree’s avatar is one of the following:

(1) an actual Sylvari body she created for herself OR
(2) a female Sylvari medium who allows the Pale Tree to possess her body and speak through her

Konig Des Todes.2086:

She tells us herself that the avatar is spiritual. And aside from the blunder of Episode 4’s finale, nothing ever indicates otherwise (and before you go with some “she isn’t see through” – well, neither is Mad King Thorn, who is very much a spirit).

As for what the Pale Tree herself says, remember that she is also Ceara’s mother. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

In-game, the Pale Tree has subtly shown that she’s a bit “out there”. Mama’s hero mentality drove her to command Trahearne to play his part in order to save Tyria during PS. (See the third screenshot as well as the youtube clip here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03PArI2bJA) No coaxing. No motherly encouragement. Just the Pale Tree with a You-do-it-or-else attitude. Mama Tree’s firm tone towards Trahearne in the video reminds me a little of Ceara (aka Scarlet Briar). What was that threat that Scarlet told the Aetherblades? “Build me a comparable fleet, or I’ll kill you all and replace you with holos.”

Like I said, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. For the time being, it might be best to take the Pale Tree’s dialogue with a grain of salt.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Furthermore, ArenaNet always uses American English. Check all the various spellings, phrases, and so forth. Even though sylvari tend to have a British accent, Anet uses American English. It is humor, not humour. It is judgment not judgement. Etc. And the reason for this is quite simple: ArenaNet is based in America. It is not British made, unlike Harry Potter. So if ArenaNet requires a translation for other dialects of English, they’d need one for British English, not one for American English.

Just because a company is based in America, doesn’t mean that its workers are from the US. American business is global these days. It’s also common for Seattle companies to hire folks from around the world. One of the devs I met in-game comes from outside the country.

The point I was trying to make is that the word manifestation means different things to folks living in two different countries. We are on global servers after all, and both societies are extremely diverse these days. Some players see the Tree’s avatar as a spirit. Others see her as a physical being. Then there are folks who think the avatar is both spirit and a physical being. Folks are taking the word manifestation to mean different things. We do need the writers to clear up this situation.

Roybe.5896:

Not sure i see what the issue is.

There isn’t an issue. This thread is just a discussion about whether the Pale Tree’s avatar is a body, a spirit, or both. I moved the conversation here because the “Spoiler Alert: Srsly Wardens, Srsly” thread was getting derailed.

I am also sure that in the past, it was stated that the Avatar of the Pale Tree is not physical there. Also, in the final cutscene she says that she’s fading. However, ANet has always treated the Avatar as a physical being. That’s the only reason why she’s protected by guards, but not the Omphalos Chamber. When we finally repel the dragon, the guards are once again running towards the Avatar, instead of helping the entire tree.
When you talk to the Avatar after the events, it is said that she is hardly breathing. Not to mention that the Avatar is still there. If the Avatar would only be a manifestation of the Pale Tree and if the Pale Tree doesn’t have the strenght to keep the manifestation alive, then the manifestation would fade and not die.

That said, if the Pale Tree “dies” and the Avatar is a physical entity, It should not die but only lose it’s connection to the Pale Tree. I hope that the writers can decide which way they want to go before it’s too late.

kta.6502:

Yes. Look at the first two screenshots below. I don’t know about you, but I see a comatose body lying before my character. If she were a spirit (like the Ascalonian ghosts), she would of disappeared AFTER she went down. When the Ascalonian ghosts are slain, they disappear immediately.

BTW, if the Tree’s avatar is a spirit, how come she’s breathing? Spirits don’t need air, and they don’t go into comas either.

But that’s the entire point of the discussion.

She shouldn’t be in such a state, because the avatar’s a spirit. The state of unconsciousness is where the continuity error comes into play, hence the entire argument in the firstplace.

It is not proof, it is the point of confusion and discontinuity.

How is it proof to take the matter of debate for whether or not the new release is breaking continuity or not, by presenting said new release? It isn’t, plain and simple.

kta.6502:

As for what the Pale Tree herself says, remember that she is also Ceara’s mother. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

In this case, it rather does, as Ceara – much like Cadeyrn – intentionally went away from the Pale Tree.

And that’s like saying the Pale Tree is akin to one in ten thousand children. What about those other 9,999 sylvari which are not akin to Ceara in the least?

You are presenting a screwed viewpoint in order to support your argument, and this does not work.

kta.6502:

Just because a company is based in America, doesn’t mean that its workers are from the US. American business is global these days. It’s also common for Seattle companies to hire folks from around the world. One of the devs I met in-game comes from outside the country.

Then explain how everything else in the entire game ever is written with American English? You really think that one single dialogue will be written differently than all the rest without exception?

Again, that’s a screwed and poor argument.

kta.6502:

We are on global servers after all, and both societies are extremely diverse these days. Some players see the Tree’s avatar as a spirit. Others see her as a physical being. Then there are folks who think the avatar is both spirit and a physical being. Folks are taking the word manifestation to mean different things. We do need the writers to clear up this situation.

It doesn’t matter where in the world players are. It doesn’t matter what player interpretation is.

What matters is what the writers themselves write. And thus the entire point of the debate. Because the Pale Tree is first presented to be spiritual – despite interpretation otherwise – but is then, somehow, someway, suddenly seeming to be physical. It’s a discontinuity. A contradiction. Hence the entire argument.

You don’t even seem to understand the very point of why this entire discussion was made, yet you made a thread to settle it with “proof” that is, in the end, what raised the discussion in the first place.

At one point she says she’s a manifestation, at another point she says she’s a spirit. She can be both these things at once, they’re not mutually exclusive.

As I’ve shown in my earlier post in this thread, a manifestation can mean a “materialized” spirit in both American and British English. There’s no problem at all here except in the minds of people trying very hard to find issue.

Manasa Devi.7958:

At one point she says she’s a manifestation, at another point she says she’s a spirit. She can be both these things at once, they’re not mutually exclusive.

As I’ve shown in my earlier post in this thread, a manifestation can mean a “materialized” spirit in both American and British English. There’s no problem at all here except in the minds of people trying very hard to find issue.

I understand what you’re saying.

Where I live in the world (Seattle, WA USA), the word “manifestation” is only used regarding abstract ideas, ghosts, spirits, and deities. It is often used when people are talking about religion. The only exception is the phrase “physical manifestation”. The Pale Tree never used the word “physical” before the word “manifestation”. So I was left with the impression that the Tree’s avatar was a spirit. After LS2: Episode 4, I’m starting to believe that may not be the case. Perhaps the Pale Tree exaggerated what she said.

I do think that something is odd by seeing the Pale Tree’s body on the floor of the Omphalos Chamber. There were also other things that seemed off in the last part of Episode 4 as well. Hopefully, the future episodes will clear up this situation.

There’s nothing to clear up as far as I’m concerned.

Everyone and everything in the game is acting as if the avatar is a physical thing. She also tells non-sylvari the following when engaging her in dialogue: “This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease.” Bodies are physical things.

The avatar claims she is a physical thing. The behaviour of NPCs implies she’s a physical thing. So, she must be a physical thing. Now, if some other words she uses can mean multiple things, we just need to do what we always do when confronted with words that can mean different things: we use the context to discern the intended meaning. Refusing to do that in this situation is just as weird as raging against the concept of school busses because they transport children instead of fish.

The avatar never claims she’s a physical thing.

Saying “this body” is more than a physical flesh-and-blood body of a creature, but can include to mean a group, or an appearance. That case is, quite clearly to me, the latter – appearance.

And even then, even if there was a retcon to make the avatar physical – which seems to be the case, unfortunately – then there is still no reason why the wardens would rush to the avatar to mend it, when it is explicitly stated on many levels that the sylvari – and by the Avatar’s explanation of her role, anyone in general – can hear the Pale Tree without the avatar as a disembodied voice (such as we see via Dream and Nightmare where the avatar doesn’t event exist yet).

It would of made more sense if the wardens got up there, the avatar disappeared as she said she was (she said she was fading), saying something along the lines of being unable to hear her and go about mending the tree itself.

“I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease.”

It’s obvious to anyone who’s not dead set to maintain a useless argument that “body” in that piece of dialogue is just a reference to a physical body. The only way your argument holds any water at all is to interpret everything she says in the most convoluted way possible.

Heck, the thing is even called the “Avatar of the Tree”. Avatars are physical representations of non-physical things, unless you’re talking about the digital age interpretation, and that’s obviously not applicable here.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Saying “this body” is more than a physical flesh-and-blood body of a creature, but can include to mean a group, or an appearance. That case is, quite clearly to me, the latter – appearance.

It seems a strange argument that a ‘manifestation’ cannot be physical but a ‘body’ can be incorporeal. The wordplay gets us nowhere.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And even then, even if there was a retcon to make the avatar physical – which seems to be the case, unfortunately – then there is still no reason why the wardens would rush to the avatar to mend it, when it is explicitly stated on many levels that the sylvari – and by the Avatar’s explanation of her role, anyone in general – can hear the Pale Tree without the avatar as a disembodied voice (such as we see via Dream and Nightmare where the avatar doesn’t event exist yet)..

I see no problem with the avatar being a physical manifestation of the Pale Tree, a spirit of the Pale Tree, and a living being with personal identity, all at the same time. When it comes to spirituality there are no hard and fast rules. Similarly we don’t know what the Pale Tree loses if the avatar dies. Without an avatar the Pale Tree may be unable to give cryptic visions to strangers, for example.

The way I see it, the avatar of the tree is a physical being, maybe something like a flower a tree might sprout, only with humanois (silvary) appearance instead. That said, the avatar was probably made in a way that it automatically reflects what the actual tree is feeling instead of being manipulated like a puppet. I believe it would cheapen the emotion a little bit, for example, if the pale tree felt worried about something and had to actually manipulate the avatar into looking worried rather than the worried look being an automatic reflection of the pale tree’s mood.

That said, either way work for what we’ve seen, either the avatar’s distressed look and falling down as a reflection of the damage the actual tree suffered (she said her roots were damaged), or just the damage being high enough that weakened the tree so much she couldn’t communicate trough the avatar (think of it like a puppet if the hand that controls it goes limp).

As for why the wardens rush to the avatar, I think it’s more of a sentimental reaction at the moment. The Pale Tree is their mother, at an intelectual level they know that it’s the entire tree they’re and not just the avatar… yet anytime they’ve interacted with her it’s been with the avatar, from a sentimental point of view they see the avatar as their mother.

Watching it from their point of view, first the shadow of the dragon attacks in the pale tree, the one place all their lives they’ve always known as a place of peace and tranquility, they’re suddenly locked out of the chamber with absolutely no idea what’s going on, and when they manage to get back in, first thing they see is the avatar, the one thing they mostly associate with their mother, lying on the floor maybe dying, of course their first reaction will be to rush to her aid, even if most likely shortly afterwards they realize the damage is most likely elsewhere (the roots, for example) and send people down there to see what they can do (if they weren’t sent while they were locked out in the first place).

Someone’s going to rip my head off for this, but hey I’ll toss it out here anyway.

My general take on the Pale Tree’s Avatar is that, like all Sylvari (don’t recall if she had the avatar prior to the firstborn or not), she probably grew it specifically for the purpose of interacting with the other species. Which would make it a physical body. It’s sort of been hinted at (maybe not the right term) that she can’t just talk to others like she can talk to her children, she needs a mouth piece. As she says, “this small body” is just what she calls it…a manifestation, a physical manifestation. It embodies her spirit in order for it to be animated, but it is not “her” as she truly is.