Guild Wars 2

I think in all this debate, people actually forgot the scope of the whole journey. We are to figure out where Caithe went with the egg, and why. That is the reason why we are going through all those memories.

The story is poorly written not because of the syrupy love dialogues – because, after all, we’re dealing with Sylvari, they ARE all lovey-dovey – but because it contradicts so much of the lore and history to date.

Let’s see the “sins”:

1. In this memory it’s not Rhiannoc who died first, like the PS (and the wiki itself) describes. But other 3 first born and Rhiannoc is getting ready to go on his journey.

2. The Asura, after capturing and torturing Malomedies, realize he is a sentient being and release him and apologize; then they turn around and capture more sylvari for their experiments? Also, Sylvari powering up golems?

3. The second born only now are awakening, and haven’t really gone beyond “Mother’s roots”, the first ones doing so are kidnapped by the Asura. Neveretheless, Faolain comes to the Silverwastes with a full platoon of assorted Sylvari fighters. Who are they and where did they come from? The answer some people gave me was “oh it’s been a while so they had time to get all trained and stuff”. Doesn’t seem at all like “it’s been a while” at least not long enough.

Feel free to add.

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

Being forced into the position of killing an entire village was just… distasteful. Even though it was a ‘memory’ and we were supposedly acting as another person, having to physically participate in that fight left everyone on my team feeling very sick.

Maybe that’s what you were going for, I dunno, but it marred the storytelling for us. It is one thing for a player to make choices that are less than ‘heroic’, it is another for a game to force a player to act like that.

(Tack on that the PC and Jory’s reactions completely missed the maipulation that was happening, and just described it as Caithe being in some ‘dark places’, and it really felt, well, yucky.)

I found it rather well done. You got to keep in mind that Caithe doesn’t know Faolin is on the way to turn evil like we do, there, so not suspecting that she likely pushed the centaurs to attack them. When that happens, you, as Caithe, are talking to that centaur in his tent/hut thing.

Windsagio.1340:

Galen Grey.4709:

Egon Vidar.9125:

.. if my partner started putting up red flags like Faolain was before that fight, snip…

Did Faolain really do anything that outragious though?

Her obsession with Wynne was a pretty big red flag, in multiple ways.

She was concerned with the Sylvari’s ability to defend herself.

Wynne knew something that could tip that balance in the favour of all Sylvari. Or at least break them free from Ventari’s legacy which in Faolain’s eyes is the biggest part of the problem. Without knowing who Faolain really is or the whole nightmare court thing why would a genuine desire to find out what Wynne knows a big red flag? I dont think its a red flag at all really. Its natural a warrior desires to know all the best weapons s/he can get!

Malediktus.9250:

Bordak.6519:

I made a mistake by posting my laugh. In response to:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

I should have simply said this:

You are wrong.

No, morals are a human invention and are passed on from generation to generation by education from parents, religion, school, politicians etc. So is what is considered “good” and “evil”.

You are talking about moral/good/evil as being some guidelines that are passed on. What is considered “good behaviour” can differ from one person to another but every person still has behaviours that he/she considers “good” and “bad”. So there will always be good and evil/bad things.

As we all are humans (thats what I want to believe :-) ) here writing in the forum, there will always be good and bad in “our world” (meaning: in our view/model of the world).

Its the same with, lets say, “white” and “black”. Someone could also say that they are human “inventions” because black and white are just a result of what levels of electromagnetic radiation our eye can detect. Which is right. Animals i.e. can “see” other black and white. Black and white are words/labels for some things we experience. That does not mean that those (underlying) things do not exist or that they themselves are “human inventions”. Same goes with good/bad.

Animals also have these guidelines (on a different level) about what is “good” and “bad” behaviour which are passed on from generation to generation through education and genetics even if they do not have the cognitive power to reflect about the concept of “moral”.

If there is a “universal good” (like God) or an “universal evil” (like The Devil) is a different story that is a matter of personal belief or disbelief because science can not proof the existence or non-existence of them.

Greetings.

Anyandrell.6238:

I think in all this debate, people actually forgot the scope of the whole journey. We are to figure out where Caithe went with the egg, and why. That is the reason why we are going through all those memories.

The story is poorly written not because of the syrupy love dialogues – because, after all, we’re dealing with Sylvari, they ARE all lovey-dovey – but because it contradicts so much of the lore and history to date.

Let’s see the “sins”:

1. In this memory it’s not Rhiannoc who died first, like the PS (and the wiki itself) describes. But other 3 first born and Rhiannoc is getting ready to go on his journey.

2. The Asura, after capturing and torturing Malomedies, realize he is a sentient being and release him and apologize; then they turn around and capture more sylvari for their experiments? Also, Sylvari powering up golems?

3. The second born only now are awakening, and haven’t really gone beyond “Mother’s roots”, the first ones doing so are kidnapped by the Asura. Neveretheless, Faolain comes to the Silverwastes with a full platoon of assorted Sylvari fighters. Who are they and where did they come from? The answer some people gave me was “oh it’s been a while so they had time to get all trained and stuff”. Doesn’t seem at all like “it’s been a while” at least not long enough.

Feel free to add.

Much conjecture.
1. It is unclear if he has already died and they felt it, it has happened and whether they knew it was him right away. But I can agree that this is indeed very confusing like this. The perception of time in this regards is skewed because the dead of Rhiannoc was such a big moment in Sylvari history.
2. The asura area Caithe and Faolain headed into is now a prominent Inquest base. They don’t need to be the same asura at all. Plus Sylvari are magical beings, it’s not that weird at all that they can power golems with it.
3. The Second Born have been awakening for 2 months, I believe even that is said in the first story instance itself. Caydern being the first of the secondborn, who founded the nightmare court, I wonder what he could do in 2 months time + the time in between story chapters.

Anyandrell.6238:

I think in all this debate, people actually forgot the scope of the whole journey. We are to figure out where Caithe went with the egg, and why. That is the reason why we are going through all those memories.

The story is poorly written not because of the syrupy love dialogues – because, after all, we’re dealing with Sylvari, they ARE all lovey-dovey – but because it contradicts so much of the lore and history to date.

Let’s see the “sins”:

1. In this memory it’s not Rhiannoc who died first, like the PS (and the wiki itself) describes. But other 3 first born and Rhiannoc is getting ready to go on his journey.

2. The Asura, after capturing and torturing Malomedies, realize he is a sentient being and release him and apologize; then they turn around and capture more sylvari for their experiments? Also, Sylvari powering up golems?

3. The second born only now are awakening, and haven’t really gone beyond “Mother’s roots”, the first ones doing so are kidnapped by the Asura. Neveretheless, Faolain comes to the Silverwastes with a full platoon of assorted Sylvari fighters. Who are they and where did they come from? The answer some people gave me was “oh it’s been a while so they had time to get all trained and stuff”. Doesn’t seem at all like “it’s been a while” at least not long enough.

Feel free to add.

Point 3 is inconsequential, if you play a sylvari character, you are ready to fight and adventure the very moment you are born, as you were taught by the ‘dream’ and memories from previous sylvari, in this case, just the first born, but as there are some pretty skilled warriors in that lot, I would say it is sufficient. Also, they have been awake for 2 months, so that’s plenty of time for more direct training as well.

It was an amazing idea. Not everything is black and white, usually-decent people make mistakes depending on circumstances which they probably grow to regret dearly. I’m glad they did it, I enjoyed its bittersweetness. I could very well see Caithe’s reluctance and shock at what was happening, yet how she did not hesitate one second to protect the one she loves.

Bordak.6519:

Kuldebar.1897:

Bordak.6519:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

It’s rather empowering, isn’t it though?

The shackles of all sentient action being struck off by such a liberating philosophy!

See, son, there’s not really good or evil, it’s just a preference thing; one man’s evil is another man’s ice cream and cake.

I made a mistake by posting my laugh. In response to:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

I should have simply said this:

You are wrong.

NO YOU. And et cetera.

Actually, there is no good, nor there is evil. If it was that simple as you think, we could have avoided many destructive episodes of human history. But truth is, everything is in the eye of the beholder, as said. I doubt if there is a sane person that trully thinks of himself or herself as a bad. Every and each thinks, be their actions considered “bad”, that their actions are justified and for the obscure “good”. That being said, your first reaction shows how sophisticated you are and my whole post becomes pointless. But that is only my opinion. Dem opinions.

Anyandrell.6238:

I think in all this debate, people actually forgot the scope of the whole journey. We are to figure out where Caithe went with the egg, and why. That is the reason why we are going through all those memories.

The story is poorly written not because of the syrupy love dialogues – because, after all, we’re dealing with Sylvari, they ARE all lovey-dovey – but because it contradicts so much of the lore and history to date.

Let’s see the “sins”:

1. In this memory it’s not Rhiannoc who died first, like the PS (and the wiki itself) describes. But other 3 first born and Rhiannoc is getting ready to go on his journey.

2. The Asura, after capturing and torturing Malomedies, realize he is a sentient being and release him and apologize; then they turn around and capture more sylvari for their experiments? Also, Sylvari powering up golems?

3. The second born only now are awakening, and haven’t really gone beyond “Mother’s roots”, the first ones doing so are kidnapped by the Asura. Neveretheless, Faolain comes to the Silverwastes with a full platoon of assorted Sylvari fighters. Who are they and where did they come from? The answer some people gave me was “oh it’s been a while so they had time to get all trained and stuff”. Doesn’t seem at all like “it’s been a while” at least not long enough.

Feel free to add.

IRRC, Golems tied heavily with necromancy. Souls can be bound to golems and et cetera. Powering up golem with a living being’s life force or magic, if Sylvari are, say, contain much magic, it makes some sense to me.

Different asura, different ethics. How fast does information spread? Can we 100% be sure that by that point everyone knew about Pale Tree and Sylvari?

Sylvari are born with some knowledge and skills that they gain through the Dream. It’s not like it takes a century to gear them up. Also, it takes time to get from Pale Tree to Metrica Province and back. And then to Silverwastes. There is definetely some period of time that is between these points.

Galen Grey.4709:

Windsagio.1340:

Galen Grey.4709:

Egon Vidar.9125:

.. if my partner started putting up red flags like Faolain was before that fight, snip…

Did Faolain really do anything that outragious though?

Her obsession with Wynne was a pretty big red flag, in multiple ways.

She was concerned with the Sylvari’s ability to defend herself.

Wynne knew something that could tip that balance in the favour of all Sylvari. Or at least break them free from Ventari’s legacy which in Faolain’s eyes is the biggest part of the problem. Without knowing who Faolain really is or the whole nightmare court thing why would a genuine desire to find out what Wynne knows a big red flag? I dont think its a red flag at all really. Its natural a warrior desires to know all the best weapons s/he can get!

Even Caithe, Caithe questions her about it and thinks her obsession is over the top. That’s like the one red flag she did see.

Just relationship wise, it’s a very awkward feeling when your SO has an obsessive, staklerish lock on a third party.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Yeah I didn’t really like it either.

I kept thinking “why on earth would I be attacking these centaurs” and then remembering that I was Caithe… And then continuing to question it because there is absolutely no motivation for Caithe to do that or blindly follow what Faolin is doing/saying.

It just came across and really poorly thought out and not a whole lot of fun to witness…

20+ years ago, Caithe would do anything for Faolain. Basically they had a mission to bring Wynne home.

I enjoyed it and I hope we get more opportunities to see the experiences of other characters good or bad, it’s nice to learn more about them.

CETheLucid.3964:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Yeah I didn’t really like it either.

I kept thinking “why on earth would I be attacking these centaurs” and then remembering that I was Caithe… And then continuing to question it because there is absolutely no motivation for Caithe to do that or blindly follow what Faolin is doing/saying.

It just came across and really poorly thought out and not a whole lot of fun to witness…

20+ years ago, Caithe would do anything for Faolain. Basically they had a mission to bring Wynne home.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Faolain brought an armed regiment into the territory and generally made a kitten of herself, bringing heavy suspicion.

Wynne didn’t want to go. Centaur tribe offers her protection from what can reasonably be assumed as coercion on Faolain and Caithe’s part.

Centaur chieftain and Caithe attempt reason, something goes down outside, hell breaks loose.

It happens. Not all diplomatic overtures end amicably. Our characters fairly sum it up. Things escalated, violently.

They didn’t have a mission, Faolain decided that she wanted to go get Wynne

Windsagio.1340:

They didn’t have a mission, Faolain decided that she wanted to go get Wynne

I’ll need to replay the intro chapter, but that was my impression too.

As far as good, evil, and sanity go, Faolain seems obviously a sociopath, even at this early stage of life. That excludes her from the discussion of normal motivations.

Come to think of it, it seems most of the NPCs that snap are sylvari.

Heavens forbid they ever push the player into uncomfortable situations…

Andred.1087:

Heavens forbid they ever push the player into uncomfortable situations…

The feeling of helplessness is expected, and the Tree does specifically say ‘hey remember this will feel like you have volition but you won’t.’

The big issue for a lot of people is that in both the last episode and this one we want our character to say “Man, kitten Caithe.” And we’re not allowed to.

Having the character react wrongly (compared to our own thoughts) to Caithe’s kittenry is what I really think gets people going.

Catihe had to fight the centaurs. After Faolain attacks them, they defend themselves. It’s not like the centaurs knew Caithe wasn’t like Faolain. If Caithe didn’t defend herself and tried to “talk it out” she would have been dead.

I think I should make note, that I recently replayed this instance with a friend, and this time, made sure I was outside of the tent to see how the slaughter truly began. It’s hard to make out exactly what happened given the limited game mechanics for gestures, how quickly this all went down, and how small characters are on the screen, so whether the centaur attacked Faolain intending to kill her, he bumped into her on accident and sent her temper off, or he tried to detain her to make sure she made no trouble, I’m not certain, but one thing is for sure, the CENTAUR MADE THE FIRST MOVE. Also, Id like to note that the scout Caithe was talking to DID THREATEN HER So… while I personally don’t believe the centaur attacked Faolain with the intention to kill her -More likely, he attempted to detained her, and she didn’t want the ‘mangy beast’ to touch her- I am certain that the centaurs started it, and it escalated from there.

It was something like a meeting between foreign diplomats, the first holds more power and appears more aggressive, so their rival, the second, feels pressured, and lashes out, a body guard of the first feels his master is endangered and fires a shot, and war breaks out. This, a rather simple depiction of what happened, is actually a pretty accurate representation of real life -just, on a much smaller scale.

OtakuModeEngage.8679:

It’s hard to make out exactly what happened given the limited game mechanics for gestures, how quickly this all went down, and how small characters are on the screen, so whether the centaur attacked Faolain intending to kill her, he bumped into her on accident and sent her temper off, or he tried to detain her to make sure she made no trouble, I’m not certain, but one thing is for sure, the CENTAUR MADE THE FIRST MOVE.

What i saw was Faolain making a swing at Wynne, and only then centaurs becoming aggresive. And earlier they did warn Faolain several times that Wynne was under their protection.

Bordak.6519:

Kuldebar.1897:

Bordak.6519:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

It’s rather empowering, isn’t it though?

The shackles of all sentient action being struck off by such a liberating philosophy!

See, son, there’s not really good or evil, it’s just a preference thing; one man’s evil is another man’s ice cream and cake.

I made a mistake by posting my laugh. In response to:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

I should have simply said this:

You are wrong.

ok, if we’re gonna take your view in mind, killing a man because he doesn’t believe in your god is good right?
because like it or not, that’s how the world has bin build on, in this age we believe it’s not a good thing but back then it was a sin not to believe in god.

good or evil is through the eyes of the beholder, not set in stone.

Another that has seen too many Hollywood movies I guess… Next time A-Net will make the good guys wear white hats and the bad guys wear black hats. And of course you will have a white hat in you dichotomous world. :/

To be honest, I’m inclined to agree. Though it may draw groans, I think the best parallel i can think of is actually modern warfare 2’s airport scene.

The difference being, eventually the civillians get wiped out by your teamates in mw2, and you dont have to fire a shot. Here if you dont participate in the slaughter then you lose.

I agree that things like this should be shown, and shouldnt be shyed away from in storytelling, however in a playable medium you should always have the option to turn away from mindless slaughter. Especially so if you can blatantly see what you are doing is stupid and wrong.

“I desire to go to Hell, not to Heaven. In Hell I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings and princes, but in Heaven are only beggars, monks, hermits and apostles.”

It always goes back to part 2. When you get out of the vision, would it have killed them to have your character say, “That was kittened up. Caithe has some things to answer for.” instead of just waving it off?

Astralporing.1957:

OtakuModeEngage.8679:

It’s hard to make out exactly what happened given the limited game mechanics for gestures, how quickly this all went down, and how small characters are on the screen, so whether the centaur attacked Faolain intending to kill her, he bumped into her on accident and sent her temper off, or he tried to detain her to make sure she made no trouble, I’m not certain, but one thing is for sure, the CENTAUR MADE THE FIRST MOVE.

What i saw was Faolain making a swing at Wynne, and only then centaurs becoming aggresive. And earlier they did warn Faolain several times that Wynne was under their protection.

Yes, that is what happened. Faolain took a swing at Wynne, which is why she ran off. The centaur next to her struck back and Faolain said “you’re gonna regret that”, then shouted “Caithe, they’ve turned on us!”

I don’t mind playing a nasty or evil role sometimes but along with others, I don’t feel the need to play a submissive, clueless and stupid character. Caithe is just not very bright, has a very dependent personality and we should have had the choice to just let Faolain get what she deserved. Nothing Faolain said even before that incident showed any redeeming qualities for Caithe to be so attracted to her.

zacharias.5437:

and we should have had the choice to just let Faolain get what she deserved.

No, we shouldn’t. It was history, so there should be no choice of behaviour (as choice would imply possibility of doing something that didin’t happen originally). Nevertheless it would have been better if Caithe made some comments on the situaltion, perhaps asking Faolain what the kitten she was doing. What was needed though, was a choice of different talk options when describing situation to Marjory at the end. Forcing us to behave as if we believed that centaurs really started it was not a good idea.

So, Caithe’s behaviour might have been modified a bit, but the real problem lies with the player character’s and Marjory’s reactions.

I just redid the story (for my third pair of pants) and I"m sorry, Faolain is so consistently cartoonishly evil in the parts where Caithe is right there there’s simply no justification. “Oh my friends I’m so sorry!” “Some friend you are, they gave you shelter and look what happened!”

also “I’m no kin to animals and I’m tired of Ventari’s Nonsense. You need to come with us, NOW!”

I’m sorry, I’ve been stupid in love but there’s absolutely no justification for staying with her at all. It wouldn’t pass as camp.

Debating moral choices in an online video game is pointless.

At the most basic level, it is impossible for an online game to even begin to recognize moral choices across the broad range of possibilities. I can’t even control my character’s conversations!

I’d love to have the level of moral control in GW2 as I do in DA: Inquisition.

Ain’t gonna happen. No money in the effort. Doesn’t enhance PvP.

I think most of it has been said already, hasn`t it?

I mean, the whole thing just isn`t delivered in a convincing manner.
Faolain was just too obvious an agressor in this story, while Caithe was being way too naive to be taken seriously.

From the get go you knew what was going to happen in every szene and what was about to be said. You could close your eyes and ears and would still be able to tell what has happened.

While the idea of taking us away from the szene of the “crime” and not allowing us to witness everything was brilliant, the whole sourounding pieces just do not fit.

From the get go we have no real reason to trust Faolain in any way.
We knew she will be the Nightmare Court Leader later on and then she is displayed as a very agressive and ruthless.

There is no way the “twists” were in any way convincing as they played out like a saturday morning cartoon.

It would have been more convincing if we would have seen Faolain in a more peaceful state, maybe how she and Caithe got together and then her slow turn into the twisted person she is now. The events were great for it, but the timeframe was poorly chosen, as it did not give us any way to judge Faolain in a positive way (her bad deeds greatly overshadow the “good” parts)

I disagree with the OP.
Please, keep on delivering “gameplay storytelling” as good as this in the future. And I’m going to separate the gameplay storytelling from the written one here, I find that both visually and in the way of gameplay we can get a lot of information from what happens in the centaur camp, the subtlety of having to slay Nehkii with your own hands seconds after being telling her that things are going to be fine (as in, how Caithe is blind towards what is really happening up to that moment) and how after that, by doing the butchering, Caithe sells her soul for Faolain. That was a powerful gameplay storytelling.
Sadly, what I would like to have improved, is the written dialog part. As most have pointed out, the way we, as heroes, summarize what we just saw, was to say at least, poorly written. That would’ve been a perfect opportunity to introduce some role playing options in dialog, without having to fork the story path from there. Maybe I, as a player, agreed with Faolain, so what I saw was that we did the right thing, or maybe I’m just neutral to sylvari history, so I won’t have an opinion and just tell Jory what I saw (facts), or maybe I felt bad for what happened, like the OP, and I would say that Faolain is a monster, and that Caithe is dangerous. Instead, we just say something inaccurate that reflects some imposed personality for our character, that I personally am beginning to dislike a lot (since the little conversation with Canach some chapters before).
Some players have already stated how they feel pushed for having to “be friends” with destiny’s edge 2.0, as an imposed thing, what do you think that kind of players will think about having an imposed personality for their characters? I hope the writers can mind this situation better in future releases. The story is good, and improving every chapter, and the delivery method is getting better and better, specially with gameplay, I just hope that the written part keeps up with those improvements.

LOL!!!! u serious? its a game, if you feel sad about doing this story you shouldn’t be playing this game! they kill rabbits and deer and all ….. if this game make you depress, you shouldn’t be playing it!

I like the idea of playing a person that don’t have the knowledge that the player have and do bad deeds due to that. I think it will be incredible great to have some morally gray decisions to do a good deed that will have sinister outcome, something in the line of the witcher.
In my opinion this type of naivety grant believability to the character and game.

To those who feel bad about this mission: what do you think about the renown hart that make you kill the dolyak calf mother in order to catch dolyak calf ?
Every game is full with missions that can make part of the players feel uneasy, we can ignore the mission or act according to the character.
I like to see how caithe will feel when she will realize that Faolain lied to her and she decimated a peaceful village.

GW2 really shouldn’t call itself an RPG. Our characters really have no choices that are meaningful, and what little choice we did have was taken away.

The game is enjoyable as a game. Worth playing.

But it’s not an RPG. It can’t be when it’s story is single-path.

For example, let’s say I think Vorrp is evil and want to kill him. I can’t. I can’t play a skrit. My character cannot steal from the trading post. I can’t reject playing Caithe.

Things like that can be done in a real, pen-and-paper RPG. When I ran table-top campaigns, players always did weird stuff, but I was able to fit the story to my players. That isn’t possible in GW2.

I suppose a dedicated community could create it’s own story separate from the game’s narrative. That could be fun.

Well, everything it’s not just rainbows and unicorns you know?
I really like this episode because is something new and different and put a little of history in it.
Of course I felt bad when I had to kill those kind centaurs but let’s be honest, WE DIDN’T kill them, that already happened 20 years ago, we just lived the story again.

Rhinala.1739:

To those who feel bad about this mission: what do you think about the renown hart that make you kill the dolyak calf mother in order to catch dolyak calf ?

You can dodge the mother’s attacks while catching the calf and then run away. I know they are just pixels, but that is how I do this heart.

Yes, I agree with the people who say the biggest problem is how dang stupid MY character’s reaction is. Like with the greatest fear storyline which has since been cut from the ps, you can bet that if I had actually been in charge here I would have said and done things very differently. Just taking the memory for what it is, I found it sad, and it was sad to play, and that was fine. To have my character then act like it was not really a big deal was terrible. I also dislike the snotty self-righteous dialogue options when taking to Canach. The player character is dumb as a brick, entirely immune to nuance, and sees the whole world in black and white. I don’t like playing this kind of character, particularly when it seems like character development is something that is just never going to happen. I understand that this is because the player character is 1. actually every single person who plays the game and 2. unnecessary to the story but has to be shoehorned in somehow, so the writers are going for “least personality possible” in the hopes that people will just fill in the blanks. I feel like I’m roleplaying as The Average GW2 Player, you know, the person who couldn’t understand what to do with all those trait points. It’s kind of icky!

I personally really enjoyed this episode for the very reason that the story finally ventured into morally more grey areas. Yes, I felt uncomfortable killing these centaurs (since they were obviously innocent), but that actually made the story interesting and emotionally engaging for me. I really missed that in GW2 so far.

GW1 had a lot of shady characters with questionable morals we had to interact/cooperate with. A few of my favorites are…
Verata, one of the Necromancer Trainers in Prophecies. He is not reluctant to employ forbidden methods to further his knowledge of summoning undead minions. He kidnaps innocent people for his experiments and becomes the founder and leader of a secret cult.
Panaku, the crazed Assassin Trainer (Factions). He takes a bit too much pleasure in exercising his profession, but later on in the story has rather big change of mind and repents for his former deeds.
Nerashi, a pretty ruthless Sunspear Ranger (Nightfall). There is a quest in which she captures a kournan scout, whom your PC has to interrogate. After questioning the frightened and pitiful Kournan, Nerashi gives you two options. Either blindfold the soldier and send him into the wilderness, or let her execute him on the spot.
And Koss of course, because he is a kitten <3

I loved these characters! Not that I necessarily agreed with what they do or say, but I felt they spice up your group of allies/companions a lot. Running around with a group of white-Disney-knights, saving the day for everybody all the time, is boring.
For similar reasons I really like Canach´s character development throughout the Dragon´s Reach episodes. His “dialogue” with Anise´s illusion in Party Politics, where he (presumably) jokes around about planing to kill everybody, was quite hilarious I think.

So, if anything, please continue this style of character development! Be bold and make characters do questionable stuff. Give them a bit more “meat”, so that we have a reason to discuss and reflect upon their actions, and actually care about what subsequently happens to them.

Edit:
I forgot to add that I agree however with the criticism concerning the lack dialogue options for our PC. The stuff we have to say during these dialogue sequences with story NPCs is, for the most part, either horribly generic talk, whose only function is to further the plot (inform person x about event y, etc.), or inconsequential and stupid blabbering that makes our PCs look like total idiots.
More diverse and/or thought out dialogue options, even if they don´t really affect the plot, would be appreciated and, as for me, would greatly improve the experience of playing through the story.

@Skoigoth: Yeah, Koss was my best buddy in Nightfall too. I loved it how he was able to slum it with Corsairs and other malcontents, but he was still a good-hearted guy who tried to do the best he could for the Sunspears and everyone.

Alright, to add my two cents…

After mulling it over in my head, I ended up on the “dislike” barricade of this particular story as well.

As for mindless slaughter – I’m a jaded old bone, I’ve steered the likes of Captain Walker, so the centaur village is definitely not the ickiest feeling I ended up having over a game. However, that itself doesn’t say “oh, other games did that, it’s completely fine for us to do it too”. Also, in this player’s humble opinion, to successfully pull this card off, you need your audience invested FIRST. You need to have them attached to the character they’re supposed to be following, so they’re reluctant to leave, or not to help.

All things considered, my worry is thus: There is a portion of the fanbase that already actively hates the Sylvari. I don’t count among them, I played as a Sylvari mesmer for quite a few levels, but I don’t count as a fan, either. So far, it’d been mostly “Meh” for me. Same goes for the Sylvari member of DE – I couldn’t be bothered to activelly dislike or hate her, I just didn’t care; were it in Edge of Destiny, racial personal stories or otherwise, I found her illegible and untrustworthy. But with Seeds of Truth, I’ve been quite violently shoved the dislike-slash-hate way.

And players who already feel annoyed by the Sylvari status of being a Mary Sue race end up being embittered and annoyed. “Man, they’re making me play for a character I hate. Man, now they’re making me do things I don’t want to do!”

What, I imagine, was supposed to result in better understanding of the “other side” (I did restrain myself from saying villain, because what do I know) ended up with many not just not understanding it, but actively refusing to do so. Which, I’m afraid, is a bit of a fail.

Kudos for the stealth sections though, those were interesting. Story around them… not so much.

Thanks for creating this memory mission to give insight into Caithe’s secret and the dark past of commiting genocide on this centaur tribe. It was every bit as dark as it needed to be. And to everyone complaining – this would’ve just been a short story on the official website had it been LS1 – I for one, applaud getting this as playable content instead – much more immersive!

And your PC’s reaction to Jory afterwards is expected, after all you’re reliving the memory as Caithe, and she’s in the tent with Nekhi and can’t see that Faolain actually aggros the centaurs first (even if you put your camera angle so you could see, or you understand the actual sequence of events, you need to “think” as if you were Caithe). So she only hears the scream and the centaurs have turned on them; remembering the Sylvari don’t have much interaction with other races yet and wary as such, she’ll defend Faolain over letting her die plus make sure they bring Wynne back.

Those thinking this (or other parts of the game) is too distasteful, etc. please help yourself to a cup of ‘harden up’. It wasn’t your own PC doing this; you’re reliving another’s retrospective – and I absolutely REFUSE to believe you haven’t killed your share of mobs in the game… here the setting is different because of the “Ventari tribe” having put down arms in their way of life; of course it took little provocation to see them all go full onslaught, so story-wise that was perhaps not so logical?

Dondarrion.2748:

(…)
And your PC’s reaction to Jory afterwards is expected, after all you’re reliving the memory as Caithe, and she’s in the tent with Nekhi and can’t see that Faolain actually aggros the centaurs first (even if you put your camera angle so you could see, or you understand the actual sequence of events, you need to “think” as if you were Caithe). So she only hears the scream and the centaurs have turned on them; remembering the Sylvari don’t have much interaction with other races yet and wary as such, she’ll defend Faolain over letting her die plus make sure they bring Wynne back.

However, the story’s problem isn’t that the right arguments aren’t there. The story’s problem is that you need to have a certain level of investment/knowledge for it to work as intended. Constructing a story isn’t the same as constructing a Lego castle. Even if you have all the right bricks and put them in the right order so your king’s bedroom isn’t in the stockades, your king (i.e. the character/s/ we’re supposed to be rooting for) may end up flogged.

I’m going to cite an example our old professor used in Creative writing classes: Think a James Bond movie or novel. You open to a heated action scene, where your hero jumps off a burning plane, fights of a hundred bad guys on a frozen lake, gets on a snowmobile, gets chased through a forest, picks up a beautiful girl on the way, jumps across a deadly chasm, braves a vicious attack of a polar bear, skins it and him and the girl of the week have a picknic on its rug. James Bond CAN pull it off, because we possess a degree of knowledge and respect for the character that allows the writer to get away with it, or on occassions, even mandatorily having to include it to meet such expectations.

But imagine you’re a starting writer and your Johnny McNoname does the same. People will call you out on it, call your plot stupid and pretentious, because they lack the crucial knowledge/investment in the character. Works the same way if you imagine someone living under the proverbial rock and show him the James Bond movies without any prior knowledge or investment in the character – you’ll have a cavalcade of confused question markers hovering above their head to explain.

So yes, the story behind Seeds of Truth has all the logical things. But to make us something more than a spectator, to have us take part in such things, you have to make us invested in the protagonist first. That’s why moments like these are easiest to do with games that have a characterized protagonist and stable cast.

Here, Sylvari players who enjoy the plant-people lore have a distinct advantage. But if you play as another race with minimum investment (either haven’t played as other races or simply do not care), you only met Caithe during a very few instances. And in those, she’s a bit of a fifth wheel – where you have a conflict of Logan/Rytlock and Zojja/Eir that helps flesh out who and what those characters are, Caithe is the hapless kindergarten teacher that is trying to pacify shrieking mob by quietly asking it to calm down without any authority whatsoever. And now, we’re asked to play as this hapless kindergarten teacher during her extremely stupid and brash decision (justified as it may have been for her, the player at that point DOES know better) and actively take part in it. THAT is where the problem lies, not in us having to decrease a fictional number on a couple of nicely animated polygon clusters to zero.

When you’re invested in your hero and the story, the desired moral conflict will ensue. When there’s a not exactly small chance you haven’t actually MET the character before, the whole plot trips over a cat and lands in the fireplace.

… there goes my resolve to reply shortly. Ahwell.

Just my 2 copper, but I wish the game has More chances to choose these sort of options. Yes, we are heroes, but that does not mean we “have” to be the Lawful Good Paladin of Justice. I would like to see more options where you can choose to be the antihero, or be given an option to mete out harsher justice than is strictly necessary. We get a few options every once in a while, but usually they do nothing (such as the dialogue in the last LS where you can be harsh to Eir, or really talk smack on Vorpp). I know I do not speak for everyone, but at least in my guild and social sphere, there are a decent amount of people who are sick of being Mr./Ms. Goody-two-shoes (said in a mocking Ash voice).

Windsagio.1340:

CETheLucid.3964:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Yeah I didn’t really like it either.

I kept thinking “why on earth would I be attacking these centaurs” and then remembering that I was Caithe… And then continuing to question it because there is absolutely no motivation for Caithe to do that or blindly follow what Faolin is doing/saying.

It just came across and really poorly thought out and not a whole lot of fun to witness…

20+ years ago, Caithe would do anything for Faolain. Basically they had a mission to bring Wynne home.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Faolain brought an armed regiment into the territory and generally made a kitten of herself, bringing heavy suspicion.

Wynne didn’t want to go. Centaur tribe offers her protection from what can reasonably be assumed as coercion on Faolain and Caithe’s part.

Centaur chieftain and Caithe attempt reason, something goes down outside, hell breaks loose.

It happens. Not all diplomatic overtures end amicably. Our characters fairly sum it up. Things escalated, violently.

They didn’t have a mission, Faolain decided that she wanted to go get Wynne

Yes, that was why they were there.

“Caithe, let’s go get Wynne.”
“K.”

It was their goal to retrieve Wynne. A mission. That’s why they went out there. To figure out Wynne’s secret.

Caithe was young and in love. Their race as a whole just started. You can forgive Caithe for being a bit naive and idealistic.

CETheLucid.3964:

Windsagio.1340:

CETheLucid.3964:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Yeah I didn’t really like it either.

I kept thinking “why on earth would I be attacking these centaurs” and then remembering that I was Caithe… And then continuing to question it because there is absolutely no motivation for Caithe to do that or blindly follow what Faolin is doing/saying.

It just came across and really poorly thought out and not a whole lot of fun to witness…

20+ years ago, Caithe would do anything for Faolain. Basically they had a mission to bring Wynne home.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Faolain brought an armed regiment into the territory and generally made a kitten of herself, bringing heavy suspicion.

Wynne didn’t want to go. Centaur tribe offers her protection from what can reasonably be assumed as coercion on Faolain and Caithe’s part.

Centaur chieftain and Caithe attempt reason, something goes down outside, hell breaks loose.

It happens. Not all diplomatic overtures end amicably. Our characters fairly sum it up. Things escalated, violently.

They didn’t have a mission, Faolain decided that she wanted to go get Wynne

Yes, that was why they were there.

“Caithe, let’s go get Wynne.”
“K.”

It was their goal to retrieve Wynne. A mission. That’s why they went out there. To figure out Wynne’s secret.

Caithe was young and in love. Their race as a whole just started. You can forgive Caithe for being a bit naive and idealistic.

That’s not love, that’s mind control.

Yes she’s in love, but Faolain is so campishly over-the-top evil and bossy – to Caithe’s face.

Naive or not, the fact remains that Caithe could’ve tried to break up the skirmish instead and figure out what was going on (as she seemed to be the rational, levelheaded one up to this point). Instead, she joins Faolain in slaughtering the centaurs that she already knew Faolain held in low regard and would have no qualms killing. She also doesn’t question Faolain trying to take Wynne from there against her will. At best, she’s being incompetent at trying to resolve the situation. At worst, she’s a willing accomplice to murder.

And the whole “she’s in love” thing doesn’t work when this love is not really believable or shown. Why does Caithe love Faolain? Why does Faolain love Caithe? They just do, with no reasoning as to why or how they got close in the beginning. Especially with Faolain being such a prickly twig—right in plain sight.

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

Being forced into the position of killing an entire village was just… distasteful. Even though it was a ‘memory’ and we were supposedly acting as another person, having to physically participate in that fight left everyone on my team feeling very sick.

Maybe that’s what you were going for, I dunno, but it marred the storytelling for us. It is one thing for a player to make choices that are less than ‘heroic’, it is another for a game to force a player to act like that.

(Tack on that the PC and Jory’s reactions completely missed the maipulation that was happening, and just described it as Caithe being in some ‘dark places’, and it really felt, well, yucky.)

wow thanks for spitting on the concept of moral ambiguity, there is no such thing as right and wrong

Duke Nukem.6783:

wow thanks for spitting on the concept of moral ambiguity, there is no such thing as right and wrong

What moral ambiguity? Faolain is 100%, moustache-twirling, card-carrying Evil™.

“…there is no such thing as right and wrong…”
“…there is no such thing as good and evil…”

People keep using these phrases. I do not think these mean what they think they mean.

Joking aside, it is a stunningly basic part of life to get wrong. Really stunning. Really basic. You can do better!

If there is up, then there is down.
If there is young, then there is old.
If there is happy, then there is sad.
If there is light, then there is dark.
If there is truth, then there is lies.
If there is right, then there is wrong.
If there is good, then there is evil.

But if there is no good, then there is no evil.
And if there is no right, then there is no wrong.
And if there is no truth, then there is no lie.
And if there is no light, then there is no darkness.
And if there is no happiness, then there is no sadness.
No young, no old
…no up, no down…

And yet, there is up,
and there is young,
and there is light,
and there is truth,
and there is right,
and there is good….

Just as there is their opposites.

I’ve been told that intellect is a two edged sword. It can cut through problems, just as it can cut the user. I think mentally arriving at some place so far off base as to conclude that right does not exist or that good is imaginary is a clear example of this. Don’t you?

Windsagio.1340:

That’s not love, that’s mind control.

It was love. Back then they were very much an item. Caithe was willing. They loved each other. They were lovers. This is the lore.

Windsagio.1340:

Yes she’s in love, but Faolain is so campishly over-the-top evil and bossy – to Caithe’s face.

Hindsight is 20/20.

this is the point. for you to feel like you ARE AN kitten . But wait I was playing as caithe you might think. So therefore caithe is an kitten and NOT a stereotypical slimshady rogue? it’s almost like she is a kitten and the game wanted us to know it.