Guild Wars 2

People please, put down those torches and pitchforks.

I just wanted to say that I’m impressed at how successful the Living World team was at accomplishing their goal with Scarlet thus far. From what I remember, the initial goal with our “personal rival” was to make a character that the players hated, like deeply hated, and felt the need to rise up against her. This has been sitting in my mind with each update, and everytime she dips her grubby little twigs into the lore I remember they wanted us to hate her. It makes me look back on the past many months of Living Story and kinda chuckle how us players, as a community, all came together to hate such an abomination of character presentation.

Most likely this was the ironic way of achieving this (rather than an actually fleshed out and solid villain), but it still makes me smile how it got the job done. I do believe everyone here is excited to see her story put to an end; which is exactly what the goal was.

Has anyone else shared these thoughts?

I guess you could put it that way. I’m still of the opinion that the writers just dropped the ball on her character though. lol

The Living Story is a huge succes. Scarlet as a character still sucks beans. But at least the rest is now good enough to compensate the still totally unbelievable unrealistic villan.

I do believe everyone here is excited to see her story put to an end; which is exactly what the goal was.

I am, though not because I love the character.

ThiBash.5634:

The Living Story is a huge succes. Scarlet as a character still sucks beans. But at least the rest is now good enough to compensate the still totally unbelievable unrealistic villan.

I do believe everyone here is excited to see her story put to an end; which is exactly what the goal was.

I am, though not because I love the character.

How’s she unbelievable and unrealistic? She’s the only Villain i’ve ever seen who doesn’t tell everyone and their grandma her kittening motives AND her plan, nor does she have an obvious secret layer everyone seems to know the location of for some reason…

The dislike is the poor story and wanting her gone, as the character and tools of Scarlet make her a terribly written villain at odds with the reality of the rest of gw2 lore and capabilities.

The mechanics may be enjoyable in part or wholly depending on preferences, but Scarlet pollutes the whole terribly with cringe worthy dialogue and utterly unrealistic resources and talents. It grates the intelligence of players who are very familiar with what is decently written and what is poorly written.

Players it would seem want her gone and defeated to close this chapter swiftly and cleanly. Effort being then directed to superior written and led projects in tune with the lore and the expectation of the players.

Scarlet is a terrible plot device. I don’t hate Scarlet. I hate the poor writing and implementation. I hate the lack of in-game storytelling. I just really feel that the LS writers and developers completely missed the mark.

I look back on the past year and I find myself wishing that it were all a bad dream and that GW2 hadn’t been released yet. Because, this game, the game I have been playing, it doesn’t deserve the title of ‘Guild Wars’.

Durzlla.6295:

ThiBash.5634:

The Living Story is a huge succes. Scarlet as a character still sucks beans. But at least the rest is now good enough to compensate the still totally unbelievable unrealistic villan.

I do believe everyone here is excited to see her story put to an end; which is exactly what the goal was.

I am, though not because I love the character.

How’s she unbelievable and unrealistic? She’s the only Villain i’ve ever seen who doesn’t tell everyone and their grandma her kittening motives AND her plan, nor does she have an obvious secret layer everyone seems to know the location of for some reason…

Apparently she’s also the richest and most influential person in all of Tyria. Why, her industrial parks alone must stretch for hundreds of miles in all directions. The only way to keep something like that hidden is on a rather large moon or perhaps in a parallel pocket universe.

Well if we had to wait another 1 for season 2 to get some tiny background (which was indeed interesting) I pass. I better have smaller story without exessive mysteries

Elbegast.6970:

this game, the game I have been playing, it doesn’t deserve the title of ‘Guild Wars’.

Quoted because it sums up my feelings perfectly. Doesn’t even feel like Guild Wars anymore. Not trying to be a party pooper, it’s just depressing.

Absolutely loathe Scarlet, I am beyond thrilled that this Living Story Chapter will be over soon. I am basically sticking around because it was promised that “whatever happens will rock Tyria to its core”. If that is just a smoke and mirrors bluff, I will pretty much be done. I know this is all new territory, and people deserve time to “get things right”, but I am stretching my faith in ArenaNet to its breaking point, hoping against hope they can finish this right.

Elbegast.6970:

Durzlla.6295:

ThiBash.5634:

The Living Story is a huge succes. Scarlet as a character still sucks beans. But at least the rest is now good enough to compensate the still totally unbelievable unrealistic villan.

I do believe everyone here is excited to see her story put to an end; which is exactly what the goal was.

I am, though not because I love the character.

How’s she unbelievable and unrealistic? She’s the only Villain i’ve ever seen who doesn’t tell everyone and their grandma her kittening motives AND her plan, nor does she have an obvious secret layer everyone seems to know the location of for some reason…

Apparently she’s also the richest and most influential person in all of Tyria. Why, her industrial parks alone must stretch for hundreds of miles in all directions. The only way to keep something like that hidden is on a rather large moon or perhaps in a parallel pocket universe.

You don’t need to be rich to be a villain, you can, you know, steal everything… Kinda like she stole a/multiple air ships…

For me I didn’t care a bit about Scarlet untill i read her diary. She now started to intrigue me.

Will we kill her or will she fight by our side in a final epic battle against the darkness.

Personally I see her sacrificing herself in order to save the world of Tyria. Yes, I’m probably very very wrong when it comes to this :p.

losbananas.8674:

For me I didn’t care a bit about Scarlet untill i read her diary. She now started to intrigue me.

Will we kill her or will she fight by our side in a final epic battle against the darkness.

Personally I see her sacrificing herself in order to save the world of Tyria. Yes, I’m probably very very wrong when it comes to this :p.

I see her as having snapped, I feel like she will be the one calling the darkness to us.

This idea of Scarlet “succeeding” has been brought up before. People mistake others hating a villain because they do villainous things that make us angry at them, and a terribly written character who makes us angry because having to deal with the awful writing is migraine inducing. Scarlet is the latter, what has affectionately been referred to before as the, “Jar Jar Binks” syndrome. A character no one wants, forced upon the audience in far too many scenes. The fact that Anet is pulling such a cliche twist at the last second to make us feel sympathetic for her is pathetic. Most of the characters from the LS are horribly written actually, but this thread is specifically about Scarlet.

The Spiral King.2483:

This idea of Scarlet “succeeding” has been brought up before. People mistake others hating a villain because they do villainous things that make us angry at them, and a terribly written character who makes us angry because having to deal with the awful writing is migraine inducing. Scarlet is the latter, what has affectionately been referred to before as the, “Jar Jar Binks” syndrome. A character no one wants, forced upon the audience in far too many scenes. The fact that Anet is pulling such a cliche twist at the last second to make us feel sympathetic for her is pathetic. Most of the characters from the LS are horribly written actually, but this thread is specifically about Scarlet.

Indeed. Joffrey from GoT is a villain I hate. He’s a horrible person who does terrible things. He has his own reasons for them though that are explained through the story.

Scarlet is a horrible villain because she just does things. Anet’s story is all ‘popup’ exposition. Characters and plot devices are introduced as needed. There is no setup or introduction. There is no reason to care.

I want her gone because she is lazy writing. I don’t care about her attacks. I don’t even know what she’s trying to do? Why am I trying to stop her (beyond it being a game)? Why are you trying to stop her? Probably because of the achievement checklist telling you to. That’s the problem. She is just downright lazy writing.

If they really make it this whole “she was good all along”, it will be the last nail in the coffin for me. My trust in Anet, the people who brought me the amazing years in GW1, will have really just gone out entirely. That is the most horrendously cliche twist that even M. Night Shamlyan would steer clear of.

Elbegast.6970:

I look back on the past year and I find myself wishing that it were all a bad dream and that GW2 hadn’t been released yet. Because, this game, the game I have been playing, it doesn’t deserve the title of ‘Guild Wars’.

They completely failed from my POV. I feel totally apathetic towards whatever happens with Scarlet, I just don’t want to have to deal with her anymore. We kill her or she joins us, I don’t care as long as we move on from this atrocity.

Emotionally, I have not been moved by a character within a game. If, in fact, they were trying to get the players to hate Scarlet based on poor writing and presentation then that is absolutely terrible and means their writing is even worse than anyone should even have to comprehend. Although, yes, I suppose they succeeded at that.

I feel like I’ve been forced to play through the most abhorrent fan fiction ever written: 50 Shades of Scarlet :P

I am also impressed whit scarlet. The story is well written and i do hate her but really like that she was written. Many people dislike her because there is no dragon involved…. yet. Arena net is making great living updates and i really enjoyed all of them.

Chris RJ.1843:

Indeed. Joffrey from GoT is a villain I hate. He’s a horrible person who does terrible things. He has his own reasons for them though that are explained through the story.

Scarlet is a horrible villain because she just does things. Anet’s story is all ‘popup’ exposition. Characters and plot devices are introduced as needed. There is no setup or introduction. There is no reason to care.

This is correct. The author of this thread fails to understand the difference between the two and therefore think Anet have been successful. They have not.

I want to see how capable Anet is of cleaning up this LS mess, and also if they have learnt from their mistakes and the next villain would actually be well written.

Woah, woah, woah..
Hold on there.

I’ll talk about myself there cause I can’t say what everyone thinks.
Scarlet didn’t make me hate her because of her actions. Scarlet made me hate her because she is a lore-breaking character, Overpowered to the max. She just appears out of nowhere, does whatever the kitten she wants and then disappears just like that, in a blink of an eye.
She makes me hate her because of her bad writting and I don’t want to ‘rise against her’ I want her to get the kitten off this once beautiful game and let me enjoy a -reaally- good Living Story and not something I can only get and accept as joking and mocking the community.

Xalugami.2096:

I just wanted to say that I’m impressed at how successful the Living World team was at accomplishing their goal with Scarlet thus far. From what I remember, the initial goal with our “personal rival” was to make a character that the players hated, like deeply hated, and felt the need to rise up against her…

Most likely this was the ironic way of achieving this (rather than an actually fleshed out and solid villain), but it still makes me smile how it got the job done. I do believe everyone here is excited to see her story put to an end; which is exactly what the goal was.

Nope. It’s been said in this thread already, but the reason she’s hated is because she breaks the lore, has a flimsy backstory, her motivations make no sense, and every action she takes seems infeasible even for a supremely overpowered entity such as herself (to save time, I’m just going to link the article Massively wrote on this subject).

I don’t hate the character; I hate that she’s poorly written. There’s a difference. And it doesn’t make me want to fight her harder, it makes me want to not participate in the Living Story at all (which I am no longer doing).

I actually liked her character design; she had a lot of potential. They just squandered it.

PeterThomas.7243:

I don’t hate the character; I hate that she’s poorly written. There’s a difference. And it doesn’t make me want to fight her harder, it makes me want to not participate in the Living Story at all (which I am no longer doing).

ding ding ding we have a winner

Xalugami.2096:

snip

Has anyone else shared these thoughts?

You don’t get it at all.. People don’t feel a hatred towards her character & what she’s done. In fact, I hardly think about that because her character is so annoying & distracting. All I can think about when I see & hear her is which deviant art roleplay character is this supposed to be & how much of a self-gratification this must be for the RPer that made her.

Ice of Dragons.1637:

I am also impressed whit scarlet. The story is well written and i do hate her but really like that she was written. Many people dislike her because there is no dragon involved…. yet. Arena net is making great living updates and i really enjoyed all of them.

your sadly mistaken im glad there is no dragon involved cause it was poorly written and no dragon deserves that bad writing. she might have been half way decent if they could have painted her motives along the way. now at this point ive become so bored i dont care how they end it as long as its done. so in my book there is no redeeeming scarlet she past that point

Xalugami.2096:

Has anyone else shared these thoughts?

No, her very background story already destroy any redeeming factor about the Living Story. The living story was a total drag when she start doing all the bull crap and expect the players to take her seriously.

You’re mistaken when you say she was successful because the players deeply hate her. There’s “deeply hating” a fictional character because it’s well made (think Joffry from A Game of Thrones), and there’s “deeply hating” a character because it’s poorly made, shallow, cliched, unbelievable, and crammed down your throat at every turn (think Scarlet from Guild Wars 2)

darkace.8925:

You’re mistaken when you say she was successful because the players deeply hate her. There’s “deeply hating” a fictional character because it’s well made (think Joffry from A Game of Thrones), and there’s “deeply hating” a character because it’s poorly made, shallow, cliched, unbelievable, and crammed down your throat at every turn (think Scarlet from Guild Wars 2)

Have you even read his entire post?

Jamais vu.5284:

Have you even read his entire post?

Yep. The idea that the writers and developers would intentionally create something so bad as to be publicly mocked is far fetched, in my opinion. So if we dismiss that idea (OP hasn’t, evidently), that only leaves the option that it was unintentional. I can’t believe they didn’t put forth an earnest effort to make her a good character, but there’s little argument they missed the mark by a wide margin. Thus, I said, “You’re mistaken when you say she was successful because the players deeply hate her.”

Just accept the fact already that there ARE players who like Scarlet and that they are NOT, in fact, crazy. Every time you say “All the playerbase hates her” you are speaking for people you don’t even know. Stop it.

Here’s what I don’t understand about the Scarlet criticism:

1.) The argument that Scarlet breaks lore.

I’ve seen this reiterrated over and over again, to a point where I’m thinking that people are just taking over points from other players to justify their hatred for Scarlet, without thinking about them for themselves. It’s nonsense. Scarlet didn’t break any lore. True, she bent lore on numerous occasion to an extend where you would feel that it would break (the most cited example is, when she got the krait into an alliance), but whenever this happens there’s usually a very strong motivation given (e.g. the promissed resurection of the krait prophet).
And even if Scarlet DID break lore, I don’t really see the problem. Since lore itself is fictional, it’s essentially at the author’s mercy. Much of what we think we know about the lore, we actually just believe to know. Apart from events where the player was present in person, all of the lore is given to us by narrators (mostly NPCs, but also narrators in books or short stories) over whose credibility we can pass no judgement at the time of narration. So if that lore gets “broken” at some time in the future, it probably wasn’t correct to start with.

2.) The argument that Scarlets’ motives are unrealistic/stupid/illogic etc.

It’s really surprising to see how many members of this forum seem to work at ArenaNet and absolutely, one-hundred percent know the outcome of the Living Story. Since I don’t have that benefit (although, if you need staff members, ANet, hook me up) I honestly have to say that I can’t reliably tell Scarlet’s motives yet. Sure, I’m speculating on how the story is going to end and what her motives for all the madness might be, but as of yet, I’m pretty much left in the dark. You can’t judge the end of a story that hasn’t been fully told yet and expected to be taken serious.

3.) The argument that Scarlet’s over-the-top superpowers and her whole demeanor are unrealistic.

I am sorry, but I have to fight this one with sarcasm and I apologize in advance, but:
Really?
In a world where centaurs, trolls and giants live, where dragons spawn to spread magic and bring the dead back to life, where gods and demigods used to walk amongst mortals, an insane, superpowered plant-person is unrealistic? That’s where you draw the line? Really?

Elbegast.6970:

Scarlet is a terrible plot device. I don’t hate Scarlet. I hate the poor writing and implementation. I hate the lack of in-game storytelling. I just really feel that the LS writers and developers completely missed the mark.

I look back on the past year and I find myself wishing that it were all a bad dream and that GW2 hadn’t been released yet. Because, this game, the game I have been playing, it doesn’t deserve the title of ‘Guild Wars’.

Drakonis.4579:

Quoted because it sums up my feelings perfectly. Doesn’t even feel like Guild Wars anymore. Not trying to be a party pooper, it’s just depressing.

I’m glad I’m not alone with this feeling. As I said in another thread, complementing the blindly optimistic thoughts of a fellow forumite:

“GW2 sticks to its roots… like parasitic fungi eating away the life of an old and mighty tree.”

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

3.) The argument that Scarlet’s over-the-top superpowers and her whole demeanor are unrealistic.

I am sorry, but I have to fight this one with sarcasm and I apologize in advance, but:
Really?
In a world where centaurs, trolls and giants live, where dragons spawn to spread magic and bring the dead back to life, where gods and demigods used to walk amongst mortals, an insane, superpowered plant-person is unrealistic? That’s where you draw the line? Really?

Yes, really. Trolls, giants, dragons, demigods…these are all present in Tolkien’s world. Yet his villains are well crafted and believable, and they don’t shatter the suspension of disbelief. Are familiar with that term…“suspension of disbelief”?

The presence of fictional elements, particularly those found within the fantasy and sci-fi genres, is obviously unrealistic. But if handled deftly, suspension of disbelief – the ability to set aside the fact that none of what you’re seeing is realistic – can allow us to enjoy the plot or setting nonetheless. Poorly handled, and these fictional elements destroy any chance of suspension of disbelief.

well, i hate scarlett as a character, but as a villain i couldn’t give less kittens about her, in fact i just see her as a pain in the kitten more than a threat with all the scrap armies and stuff.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

2.) The argument that Scarlets’ motives are unrealistic/stupid/illogic etc.

It’s really surprising to see how many members of this forum seem to work at ArenaNet and absolutely, one-hundred percent know the outcome of the Living Story. Since I don’t have that benefit (although, if you need staff members, ANet, hook me up) I honestly have to say that I can’t reliably tell Scarlet’s motives yet. Sure, I’m speculating on how the story is going to end and what her motives for all the madness might be, but as of yet, I’m pretty much left in the dark. You can’t judge the end of a story that hasn’t been fully told yet and expected to be taken serious.

True you can’t predict the future, but if you read enough fiction, heck even reality does this, you can kind of see where certain things are heading.

Case in point, I thought some of the releases were going to feature something other than Scarlet. Boy was I wrong, for a while they all followed the same “Find alliance, bash alliance, Scarlet giggles, and not even a ‘Curse you Gadget next time!’ for my troubles.”

So yes you can’t judge the end of the story that hasn’t been told yet.
You CAN however get bored with the story in the middle if it sound so much like the other boring parts you just snored through.

3.) The argument that Scarlet’s over-the-top superpowers and her whole demeanor are unrealistic.

I am sorry, but I have to fight this one with sarcasm and I apologize in advance, but:
Really?
In a world where centaurs, trolls and giants live, where dragons spawn to spread magic and bring the dead back to life, where gods and demigods used to walk amongst mortals, an insane, superpowered plant-person is unrealistic? That’s where you draw the line? Really?

X-Men did well for a while, Guild Wars Prophecies did well, heck even Shadowrun has stuff like this but the characters can be believable or at least grounded in a way that doesn’t seem like a GM NPC.

darkace has it right, Scarlet went from a concept that sounded neat to a boring “she’s behind everything” type of character. I was an initial supporter of her. I liked the idea of her and I still do. I just don’t like her as she is right now.

Now Origin of Madness has smoothed her out a bit for me, the voice is serious and we can actually see her in some pain. Problem is I’ve lost the heart to give a skritt dropping about her story now and I’m just playing it through hoping that Season two will improve.

darkace.8925:

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

3.) The argument that Scarlet’s over-the-top superpowers and her whole demeanor are unrealistic.

I am sorry, but I have to fight this one with sarcasm and I apologize in advance, but:
Really?
In a world where centaurs, trolls and giants live, where dragons spawn to spread magic and bring the dead back to life, where gods and demigods used to walk amongst mortals, an insane, superpowered plant-person is unrealistic? That’s where you draw the line? Really?

Yes, really. Trolls, giants, dragons, demigods…these are all present in Tolkien’s world. Yet his villains are well crafted and believable, and they don’t shatter the suspension of disbelief. Are familiar with that term…“suspension of disbelief”?

The presence of fictional elements, particularly those found within the fantasy and sci-fi genres, is obviously unrealistic. But if handled deftly, suspension of disbelief – the ability to set aside the fact that none of what you’re seeing is realistic – can allow us to enjoy the plot or setting nonetheless. Poorly handled, and these fictional elements destroy any chance of suspension of disbelief.

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

Yes, I am in fact familiar with the concept of suspension of disbelieve. That’s why I mentioned all those things. If you can suspend your disbelive so much that you accept ogres, giants, dragons etc, I don’t see why you can’t accept a villain whose actually really clever and really powerful.

“People don’t hate Scarlet the way Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey. They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.”

I was gonna respond to CorneliusCoffin’s ridiculous rationalization of Scarlet’s horrible character (since according to that logic there is no such thing as a bad story/character) but this explains it all:

Hyperionkhv.1978:

“People don’t hate Scarlet the way Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey. They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.”

Done.

^To say where the credit is due: the original quote comes from Draxynnic.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

Yes, I am in fact familiar with the concept of suspension of disbelieve. That’s why I mentioned all those things. If you can suspend your disbelive so much that you accept ogres, giants, dragons etc, I don’t see why you can’t accept a villain whose actually really clever and really powerful.

That you’re even bothering to argue that Guild Wars 2’s Scarlet Briar is as well-developed as Lord of the Rings’ Sauron shows a lack of literary sophistication on your part. Please don’t take that as an insult; some people like Saving Private Ryan and Mozart, some people like Transformers and Justin Bieber.

There’s nothing wrong with liking Transformers and Justin Bieber. But you lose us when you start trying to convince us Transformers is just as well-written and directed as Saving Private Ryan or that Justin Bieber has just as much musical talent as Mozart did.

darkace.8925:

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

Yes, I am in fact familiar with the concept of suspension of disbelieve. That’s why I mentioned all those things. If you can suspend your disbelive so much that you accept ogres, giants, dragons etc, I don’t see why you can’t accept a villain whose actually really clever and really powerful.

That you’re even bothering to argue that Guild Wars 2’s Scarlet Briar is as well-developed as Lord of the Rings’ Sauron shows a lack of literary sophistication on your part. Please don’t take that as an insult; some people like Saving Private Ryan and Mozart, some people like Transformers and Justin Bieber.

There’s nothing wrong with liking Transformers and Justin Bieber. But you lose us when you start trying to convince us Transformers is just as well-written and directed as Saving Private Ryan or that Justin Bieber has just as much musical talent as Mozart did.

Nice try. I almost fell for your trap there, but I’m not going to get down to that level. Please just re-read what I have written, especially what I did and didn’t claim in my post and correct your post accordingly. Maybe after you’ve learned to do that, we can discuss my literary sophistication.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

darkace.8925:

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

Yes, I am in fact familiar with the concept of suspension of disbelieve. That’s why I mentioned all those things. If you can suspend your disbelive so much that you accept ogres, giants, dragons etc, I don’t see why you can’t accept a villain whose actually really clever and really powerful.

That you’re even bothering to argue that Guild Wars 2’s Scarlet Briar is as well-developed as Lord of the Rings’ Sauron shows a lack of literary sophistication on your part. Please don’t take that as an insult; some people like Saving Private Ryan and Mozart, some people like Transformers and Justin Bieber.

There’s nothing wrong with liking Transformers and Justin Bieber. But you lose us when you start trying to convince us Transformers is just as well-written and directed as Saving Private Ryan or that Justin Bieber has just as much musical talent as Mozart did.

Nice try. I almost fell for your trap there, but I’m not going to get down to that level. Please just re-read what I have written, especially what I did and didn’t claim in my post and correct your post accordingly. Maybe after you’ve learned to do that, we can discuss my literary sophistication.

Nah, he explained the flaw of your comparison perfectly.
Pretty much all of your reasoning shows any ability to distinguish between what makes something work better & what makes it broken. I myself can admit that I like the movie The Story of Ricky. But to say that it is of the same caliber or shows the same grasp of story telling, character development, setting & consistency as say, Blade Runner, is just being dishonest.
Story of Ricky is a crap movie, but I like it. Same can be said of Scarlet for some people. But trying to rationalize Scarlet because “you can accept apples, why not oranges?” doesn’t work. None of you points allows for any distinction between anything. Essentially you’re saying we should accept Scarlet because she can’t be broken.

DarksunG.9537:

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

darkace.8925:

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

Yes, I am in fact familiar with the concept of suspension of disbelieve. That’s why I mentioned all those things. If you can suspend your disbelive so much that you accept ogres, giants, dragons etc, I don’t see why you can’t accept a villain whose actually really clever and really powerful.

That you’re even bothering to argue that Guild Wars 2’s Scarlet Briar is as well-developed as Lord of the Rings’ Sauron shows a lack of literary sophistication on your part. Please don’t take that as an insult; some people like Saving Private Ryan and Mozart, some people like Transformers and Justin Bieber.

There’s nothing wrong with liking Transformers and Justin Bieber. But you lose us when you start trying to convince us Transformers is just as well-written and directed as Saving Private Ryan or that Justin Bieber has just as much musical talent as Mozart did.

Nice try. I almost fell for your trap there, but I’m not going to get down to that level. Please just re-read what I have written, especially what I did and didn’t claim in my post and correct your post accordingly. Maybe after you’ve learned to do that, we can discuss my literary sophistication.

Nah, he explained the flaw of your comparison perfectly.
Pretty much all of your reasoning shows any ability to distinguish between what makes something work better & what makes it broken. I myself can admit that I like the movie The Story of Ricky. But to say that it is of the same caliber or shows the same grasp of story telling, character development, setting & consistency as say, Blade Runner, is just being dishonest.
Story of Ricky is a crap movie, but I like it. Same can be said of Scarlet for some people. But trying to rationalize Scarlet because “you can accept apples, why not oranges?” doesn’t work. None of you points allows for any distinction between anything. Essentially you’re saying we should accept Scarlet because she can’t be broken.

Well, I never made the comparison between Tolkien and GW2 in the first place. That comparison came from him and I was just trying to show that even Tolkien’s admittetly great character-crafting skill had its flaws and requires suspension of disbelieve.
That being said, I get your point of criticism. Maybe I was too sarcastic or I wasn’t clear enough, but I never intended to say that Scarlet can’t be broken. I know she can be broken and I know that she can break lore. What I meant to say is that so far she didn’t despite people constantly claiming otherwise. And that I can’t understand how most of people’s hate is not based on knowledge but on uncertainty, about her intentions, about her influence, about her methods, rather than on facts. People are passing judgements on the character, without having heared the full story, because for some reason, everyone is expecting ArenaNet to screw things up.

Again, I’m not saying there’s no chance that we’re all going to be disappointed. But I can’t understand the amount of disapproval that’s been spread based on the fact that we’re not fully in the picture but the expactancy that things will not be explained in the end.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

unguarded? Firstly the only way in was either through a massive guarded gate or a huge fortress. They had to use Gollum to show them a hidden entrance also guarded by a giant spider which beyond that was another fortress. Even then the entire plains of mordor was filled with camps of Orcs. Unguarded? The entire region was basically filled with guards.

Thobek.1730:

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

unguarded? Firstly the only way in was either through a massive guarded gate or a huge fortress. They had to use Gollum to show them a hidden entrance also guarded by a giant spider which beyond that was another fortress. Even then the entire plains of mordor was filled with camps of Orcs. Unguarded? The entire region was basically filled with guards.

You’re talking about Mordor. I was refering to Mount Doom specifically, which for some odd reason seems to be the most neglected place in all of eastern middle earth, despite being the only place where the one ring can be destroyed.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

Thobek.1730:

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

unguarded? Firstly the only way in was either through a massive guarded gate or a huge fortress. They had to use Gollum to show them a hidden entrance also guarded by a giant spider which beyond that was another fortress. Even then the entire plains of mordor was filled with camps of Orcs. Unguarded? The entire region was basically filled with guards.

You’re talking about Mordor. I was refering to Mount Doom specifically, which for some odd reason seems to be the most neglected place in all of eastern middle earth, despite being the only place where the one ring can be destroyed.

Well, it was a giant active volcano. That tends to put people off building lots of elaborate things around it. I imagine even orcs don’t want to end up extra crispy.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

Well, I never made the comparison between Tolkien and GW2 in the first place.

“If you can suspend your disbelive so much that you accept ogres, giants, dragons etc, I don’t see why you can’t accept a villain whose actually really clever and really powerful.”
& you said that right after you made an obviously tailored explanation of Sauron trying to point out fantastical he is. That is a comparison.

As for “a villain whose actually really clever and really powerful” oh come on… Nothing in Scarlet’s personality says clever or powerful. We have to be told she’s “clever” & powerful. Now, Veresh Ossa? Yes I could believe she’s a brilliant tactician & a powerful authoritative leader because her personality is consistent with her abilities. Not because there is a paragraph somewhere giving me an excuse as to why she’s awesome. TBH, Varesh had a far more believable madness too. Not a stupid hipster dufus. You can’t just throw any personality on any type of character & say “it makes sense because excuse!” It has to be in terms of of variations on what we can identify with. Very very very rarely do you have someone who is hyper hyper intelligent & super wacky stupid crazy jokey dance dance at the same time. It’s STUPID. It almost never works. That’s what character’s like the Joker are small-time. Because Insanity almost necessarily counters logic. When people talk about people being so smart they are crazy they don’t dance around giggling like a cheese-ball & kitten men in cauldrons. For Scarlet they did the RP noob mistake: Cram totally bonkers (because it’s hip & “fun”) with Super Smart (Because I want my character to awesome & powerful!). They had no concept of believable limitations.
To say “I don’t see why you can’t accept a villain whose actually really clever and really powerful.” misses the point entirely.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

but I never intended to say that Scarlet can’t be broken. I know she can be broken and I know that she can break lore.

In terms of lore yeah you did: “And even if Scarlet DID break lore, I don’t really see the problem.”
This is where I felt you threw out all measures & standards. The absolute base level thing you need to do in things like MMO lore is be consistent. Breaking lore is the equivalent of saying “what is happening right now doesn’t matter, because in 1 year, it might not have happened” When you can say xyz never happened or wyz was “really” something else, the viewer can no longer rely on anything in the story being consistent & therefore cannot create a cohesive narrative. Retconning can occasionally work, but it’s very very rare. Abbadon? worked. Has problems, but for the most part it worked. The Gods history being “human biased” & totally changed? total bogus (& tbh, inaccurate since not everything in the GW1 manual was written from a human point of view. some of it was out-of-game descriptions that they threw out). All it did was make much of the things that people liked about GW1 nonexistent. So no, breaking lore is not “ok”. Every time it’s done, the universe you created becomes less & less believable.
As for lore bending. that doesn’t work either. & it especially doesn’t work when everything is bending toward one point. You’re essentially saying “we are forcing everything we established to conform to this 1 character because this character doesn’t naturally fit in this universe.” it’s like a red flag that you’re made a junk character.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

People are passing judgements on the character, without having heared the full story, because for some reason, everyone is expecting ArenaNet to screw things up.

This isn’t a valid criticism of storytelling. If a story sucks till the last 5 minutes then the last 5 minutes explains in microscopic detail WHY it sucked then that doesn’t make for a good story. Personally, I don’t care what Scarlet’s motivations are. Her personality & unnecessary over-powered nature are so stupid that I spend every minute she’s on screen groaning. It’s obvious she probably being “controlled” by an ED or something like that. So what? that doesn’t make “tee hee fancy panties” literary gold. It doesn’t make her alliances pointlessly improbable. People can absolutely pass judgement on what they’ve experienced. If the mystery were good, I’d be glued to my seat like when I was watching LOST. & while the ending of LOST sucked, the show was just so kitten good that i’ve watched it twice.

Saying “you can’t judge anything until you see the end” is just bogus. It’s not true & it won’t make currently bad characters & dialog good just to know why they act like morons.

CorneliusCoffin.3169:

I’m glad you mention Tolkien with his evil overlord, who’s almost indefeatable, except for the fact that he wears his one ring of power over, instead of under his armor. And the giant, quasi-omniscient eye that this evil overlord later becomes, which has the capability to command giant orc-armies, yet for some reason leaves the only path to its destruction, that is the way up to Mount Doom, where the one ring was forged, completely ungarded.

Ugh, sorry, but this is going to bug me.

Sauron’s actually been defeated multiple times. By the time of Lord of the Rings he didn’t even have a corporeal form thanks to his previous defeat and (kind of like Voldemort now that I think about it) existed mostly because so much of his essence had been transferred into the One Ring. That’s the reason why the ring itself had to be destroyed because as long as it existed Sauron could never really die.

Also, the finger the ring was on was cut from Sauron’s hand, so even if he’d worn it under the armor he still would have lost it.

Others already addressed the Mount Doom part. :P I’ll only add that if Sauron hadn’t fallen for Gandalf & Aragorn’s ruse that Frodo never would have made it to the mountain top.

Side note: Sauron also started out as an Ainur, which is basically Tolkien’s equivalent of an angel. Last I checked, Scarlet is not supposed to be above the mortal races of Tyria.

Point being, if you actually know your Tolkien lore a great deal of suspension of disbelief was not necessary for the character of Sauron.

If even a fraction of Sauron’s story existed for Scarlet she might not suck so much. -_-