Guild Wars 2

No, I’m more referring more to the ones that say they can’t relate to the NPCs in the story line because they are female and asking to that the next story line has less females and more men for that reason.

Women have endured centuries of not being represented and not having strong females to look up to, to having the women shown as being less than men. If men are uncomfortable with just one story in just one game not having a majority cast of men and the man not being the major lead person, maybe they need to consider why they are uncomfortable and feel it so necessary to ask for fewer women and more men.

And I am off for the night. If I can we can pick this up tomorrow. :-)

Aedelric.1287:

Astral Projections.7320:

Prophet.6257:

I agree 100%. This has really bugged me about this game.

I am glad to see strong female characters but as a guy it gets old not having enough representation of my gender in this game. It just makes me want to invest less into the overall story.

Isn’t that truth. As a female I have felt exactly the same thing about every game so far I’ve seen. All the main, important figures are male with a token female thrown in, who is usually inept and ditzy.

I feel your pain.

I agree with you both, which is why we should have a more even representation on both sides, with enough characters and diverse personalities so that everyone can find someone they at least partially relate to or generally just find likable. (Men and women alike)

This.

If I’m going to get into this story I need something to connect with. The female dominate cast is just not doing it for me. Hopefully they find the right balance and split it up a little more evenly next go around.

It’s not like they have to or anything, but me and people like me don’t have to invest in the game either. Personally, I think adding some more diversity in the lead characters would be good for business.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/142055/photo32.jpg

Astral Projections.7320:

Snip for length…

Unlike the Uhura incident most people (If not all) are not asking for any of the female leads to be replaced, just have one or two new male characters join them.

Aedelric.1287:

Astral Projections.7320:

Snip for length…

Unlike the Uhuru incident most people (If not all) are not asking for any of the female leads to be replaced, just have one or two new male characters join them.

And don’t we all want equal, or more equal, representation. The question is, is it feasible? Is it reasonable? Some men are asking for one or two new male characters, so ANet adds them. Then black people get on and say, there are no black (Elonan) people. We need just one or two black people. So ANet adds one or two black people. Then Asian people get on and say, there is only the token Asian (person with Canthan heritage). We need more of them. So ANet adds another Canthan person. Then heterosexuals say, we need a romance between a man and a woman, we can’t relate to 2 women. So ANet adds a man and woman for that.

You can’t make a good, tight story if you are adding people by quota.

One thing is, we are looking at this matter from 2 different starting points. You are looking at what’s going on right now. This story lacks sufficient men for you. I am looking at it in a more historical point of view.

Let’s turn your request around. Let’s say it’s been men who for centuries have been underrepresented in public. Not allowed to own businesses. Unable to get higher education. Women hold all the important jobs and dominate politics. Currently, men’s few roles in games have been usually stereotyped as either the one who needs to be rescued or the sex object. Now one game comes out and for one story for a couple of months, men have more representation than women and have been given front and center roles. Women come on the forum and say, I can’t relate to a bunch of men. Add more women. Now, of course the women are absolutely correct in wishing more equal representation but is it truly a pressing matter to give it to women here, right now, when they have it essentially everywhere else in the world?

Aedelric.1287:

Astral Projections.7320:

Snip for length…

Unlike the Uhuru incident most people (If not all) are not asking for any of the female leads to be replaced, just have one or two new male characters join them.

Yeah I really hope they don’t start killing off or replacing any of the current female leads. They bring a lot to the game and right now GW2 needs depth badly. However, the more variety they can add the better.

I do hope for the sake of this game’s future though that Anet focuses on this game and making it appealing to the widest audience it can and not try to make it too much of a social justice push.

Balthazar forbid they lose their convictions in it but business is business.

Prophet.6257:

I do hope for the sake of this game’s future though that Anet focuses on this game and making it appealing to the widest audience it can and not try to make it too much of a social justice push.

Balthazar forbid they lose their convictions in it but business is business.

“Social Justice Push” Always comes off to me as “I don’t like having diversity in my games.” I mean, how many thousands of white, middle aged, grizzled, straight male warriors does the world need? Really, it’s the dullest character type at this point (and I only bring it up as people openly advocated for it a few pages back).

If anything, having more diversity in the game does make the game appeal to the widest possible audience. It’s nice to see a game where some major relationships aren’t just ‘Grizzled war vet white dude gets with quiet, sidelined attractive girl" and instead have two, adorable sylvari expressing concern for their boyfriend, or having a relationship between two women that at least shows care, affection and love and hopefully isn’t written with the idea of fanservice in mind.

Either way, having a predominantly female cast for one LS (hopefully more) doesn’t bother me in the slightest, it’s actually really surprising (in a good way) and I do hope they keep up the trend of trying to represent more groups of people. At the same time, there’s always nips at how characters are written… though, honestly, I like Braham for multiple reasons. A huge one is that now a lot of male gamers can see where female gamers come from when they mention gender inequalities in the game, or lacking respectful representation… well, hopefully they could see that.

I just hope, for future male characters, we get interesting people. Traditionally “effeminate” sorts would be lovely to see, rocking flashy outfits and bringing a sense of uniqueness to the game (or more gay male characters, or bi ones, or something). I swear, though… if I see one more stubbled, middle-aged, gruff speaking warrior who wrestles bears with his hands and is a tactical genius… I’ll just eat a shirt or something.

Kit.3986:

Prophet.6257:

I do hope for the sake of this game’s future though that Anet focuses on this game and making it appealing to the widest audience it can and not try to make it too much of a social justice push.

Balthazar forbid they lose their convictions in it but business is business.

“Social Justice Push” Always comes off to me as “I don’t like having diversity in my games.” I mean, how many thousands of white, middle aged, grizzled, straight male warriors does the world need? Really, it’s the dullest character type at this point (and I only bring it up as people openly advocated for it a few pages back).

If anything, having more diversity in the game does make the game appeal to the widest possible audience. It’s nice to see a game where some major relationships aren’t just ‘Grizzled war vet white dude gets with quiet, sidelined attractive girl" and instead have two, adorable sylvari expressing concern for their boyfriend, or having a relationship between two women that at least shows care, affection and love and hopefully isn’t written with the idea of fanservice in mind.

Either way, having a predominantly female cast for one LS (hopefully more) doesn’t bother me in the slightest, it’s actually really surprising (in a good way) and I do hope they keep up the trend of trying to represent more groups of people. At the same time, there’s always nips at how characters are written… though, honestly, I like Braham for multiple reasons. A huge one is that now a lot of male gamers can see where female gamers come from when they mention gender inequalities in the game, or lacking respectful representation… well, hopefully they could see that.

I simply meant I hope they keep their focus on the game itself. Making it great and representing as many members of its audience as it can. If that means adding the prototypical middle aged hero fine. However I do agree with you, I would like to see much more variety than that. The books and GW1 lore are all very well written and does give me hope that in the future we will see a more varied cast.

I trust ANet to do just that considering how well GW1 and the books were. Just a quick plug for Ree too considering what just happened to LA:

Sea of Sorrows is only seven bucks right now.
http://www.amazon.com/Guild-Wars-Sorrows-Ree-Soesbee/dp/1416589627

Kit.3986:

I just hope, for future male characters, we get interesting people. Traditionally “effeminate” sorts would be lovely to see, rocking flashy outfits and bringing a sense of uniqueness to the game (or more gay male characters, or bi ones, or something). I swear, though… if I see one more stubbled, middle-aged, gruff speaking warrior who wrestles bears with his hands and is a tactical genius… I’ll just eat a shirt or something.

What you find interesting I do not, the hero you want I do not. I want a warrior that wrestles bears with his hands, is a tactical genius, charismatic leader, emotionally strong (not daddy issues or anything lie that), mature, heterosexual, married, father of 7 kids (could be more), with huge arms, a huge beard with a mustache. Basically I want a mentor I can respect. You see, people is different and wants different things. Calling me misogynist, sexist, racist, communist, satan worshiper, heteromonster, beard supremacist, evil macho or any other card up your sleeve won’t change that fact You don’t like my style of hero and I don’t like yours, simple story.

JGBarbarian.3579:

What you find interesting I do not, the hero you want I do not. I want a warrior that wrestles bears with his hands, is a tactical genius, charismatic leader, emotionally strong (not daddy issues or anything lie that), mature, heterosexual, married, father of 7 kids (could be more), with huge arms, a huge beard with a mustache. Basically I want a mentor I can respect. You see, people is different and wants different things. Calling me misogynist, sexist, racist, communist, satan worshiper, heteromonster, beard supremacist, evil macho or any other card up your sleeve won’t change that fact You don’t like my style of hero and I don’t like yours, simple story.

Sound like you want Forgal version two.

JGBarbarian.3579:

Kit.3986:

I just hope, for future male characters, we get interesting people. Traditionally “effeminate” sorts would be lovely to see, rocking flashy outfits and bringing a sense of uniqueness to the game (or more gay male characters, or bi ones, or something). I swear, though… if I see one more stubbled, middle-aged, gruff speaking warrior who wrestles bears with his hands and is a tactical genius… I’ll just eat a shirt or something.

What you find interesting I do not, the hero you want I do not. I want a warrior that wrestles bears with his hands, is a tactical genius, charismatic leader, emotionally strong (not daddy issues or anything lie that), mature, heterosexual, married, father of 7 kids (could be more), with huge arms, a huge beard with a mustache. Basically I want a mentor I can respect. You see, people is different and wants different things. Calling me misogynist, sexist, racist, communist, satan worshiper, heteromonster, beard supremacist, evil macho or any other card up your sleeve won’t change that fact You don’t like my style of hero and I don’t like yours, simple story.

You’ll find your hero in the vast majority of games out there.
God forbids someone does something different eh ?

JGBarbarian.3579:

I want a warrior that wrestles bears with his hands, is a tactical genius, charismatic leader, emotionally strong (not daddy issues or anything lie that), mature, heterosexual, married, father of 7 kids (could be more), with huge arms, a huge beard with a mustache. Basically I want a mentor I can respect.

Uh … you don’t think that is a rather sad statement about your ability to respect other people?

Anyway, the perpetual problem with the archetypal Male of your description is that it’s all too easy for them to become a Black Hole Marty Stu. You know, the world rotating around them instead of the other way round. The story only existing as an excuse to make them look even more awesome. Adding such a character to an existing setting reduces diversity instead of increasing it.

Looking at the topic at arm’s length, it would appear to be that there is indeed a reasonable request to be made. However, a perceived need isn’t sufficient — arguments matter as well. A poorly reasoned request is more likely to raise objections and derail the discussion than to further the cause.

An argument of balance is not constructive. It can be examined statistically, with the conclusion that in order to perceive an imbalance one must have internalized the industry-wide opposite imbalance.

A simple request for “more males” is not constructive. It makes the implicit claim that women don’t really count, and in the greater context it also asserts a privilege.

A request for the standard alpha male archetype is not constructive either. Beyond already being overrepresented throughout the industry, as a character it is a spotlight-stealing vampire that reduces diversity and story potential.

On the positive side, the best argument I have seen so far — one I could certainly agree with — is here:

Aedelric.1287:

Canach is a decent enough character that would be well suited to join the main cast of heroes, I would not be upset if he was chosen as the next male hero. Failing that perhaps a new one from the Brisban Wildlands, perhaps some kind of crazy Skritt mechanic would be nice.

This is a good, constructive suggestion. Canach is an interesting, morally complex character. In my opinion, as a character he beats Scarlet ten to nil. I wouldn’t certainly mind seeing him better utilized in future chapters.

So, please be positive. The best way to make a contribution is to describe an existing or a new character you would like to see in the story — and who just happens to be male, in contrast to making ‘maleness’ the only relevant criterion.

tmakinen.1048:

JGBarbarian.3579:

I want a warrior that wrestles bears with his hands, is a tactical genius, charismatic leader, emotionally strong (not daddy issues or anything lie that), mature, heterosexual, married, father of 7 kids (could be more), with huge arms, a huge beard with a mustache. Basically I want a mentor I can respect.

Uh … you don’t think that is a rather sad statement about your ability to respect other people?

Anyway, the perpetual problem with the archetypal Male of your description is that it’s all too easy for them to become a Black Hole Marty Stu. You know, the world rotating around them instead of the other way round. The story only existing as an excuse to make them look even more awesome. Adding such a character to an existing setting reduces diversity instead of increasing it.

I don’t think ANet would let the world rotate around just one hero in GW2 no matter the archetype. And if they were implemented correctly it would add diversity to the world.

We need a pantheon on heroes in Tyria even if their roles are only prominent seasonally.

JGBarbarian.3579:

Kit.3986:

I just hope, for future male characters, we get interesting people. Traditionally “effeminate” sorts would be lovely to see, rocking flashy outfits and bringing a sense of uniqueness to the game (or more gay male characters, or bi ones, or something). I swear, though… if I see one more stubbled, middle-aged, gruff speaking warrior who wrestles bears with his hands and is a tactical genius… I’ll just eat a shirt or something.

What you find interesting I do not, the hero you want I do not. I want a warrior that wrestles bears with his hands, is a tactical genius, charismatic leader, emotionally strong (not daddy issues or anything lie that), mature, heterosexual, married, father of 7 kids (could be more), with huge arms, a huge beard with a mustache. Basically I want a mentor I can respect. You see, people is different and wants different things. Calling me misogynist, sexist, racist, communist, satan worshiper, heteromonster, beard supremacist, evil macho or any other card up your sleeve won’t change that fact You don’t like my style of hero and I don’t like yours, simple story.

Hi!

I get what you mean, but that character is:

A) Overused. It’s in like, every game in existence.

B) Silly. It’s a ridiculous character that’s only exists to pump testosterone into every situation and add nothing to the story at hand. It’s a very weak, overdone character that often lacks any meaningful depth, but gets adoration from fans because it’s the Mary Sue they all aspire to be.

C) I really don’t like the “Daddy” issues statement. It’s disrespectful, like really disrespectful, granted you’re kind of implying that effeminate males (I don’t like using “effeminate” like this, but it’s the only descriptor I can think of right now) have father issues, or gay males do etc… and… as someone who would identify with that type of character, I just dislike that irritating stereotype. Kinda sad you can’t respect people who differ from that depiction you have, though.

D) I didn’t call you any of those things, I expressed my desire for more characters -I- can identify with that aren’t silly caricatures, or disrespectful stereotypes since they don’t exist in the gaming world… really. Whereas, on the other hand, the Mary Sue you described is in pretty much every game ever designed.

At the end of the day, though, I’d rather see a female lead taking on the world, if only because female gamers need a larger list of heroes in our media, who aren’t just silly sex icons for the hormonal teen to stare at while she lounges in the background. (Males don’t -need- more game heroes… there are countless, countless, countless of them)

JGBarbarian.3579:

Kit.3986:

I just hope, for future male characters, we get interesting people. Traditionally “effeminate” sorts would be lovely to see, rocking flashy outfits and bringing a sense of uniqueness to the game (or more gay male characters, or bi ones, or something). I swear, though… if I see one more stubbled, middle-aged, gruff speaking warrior who wrestles bears with his hands and is a tactical genius… I’ll just eat a shirt or something.

What you find interesting I do not, the hero you want I do not. I want a warrior that wrestles bears with his hands, is a tactical genius, charismatic leader, emotionally strong (not daddy issues or anything lie that), mature, heterosexual, married, father of 7 kids (could be more), with huge arms, a huge beard with a mustache. Basically I want a mentor I can respect. You see, people is different and wants different things. Calling me misogynist, sexist, racist, communist, satan worshiper, heteromonster, beard supremacist, evil macho or any other card up your sleeve won’t change that fact You don’t like my style of hero and I don’t like yours, simple story.

You said something in here that I think everyone can relate to. “People are different and want different things.” That is something we all should respect and encourage in the development of those different characters.

I hope they do develop the traditional strong male character. I also hope they don’t push out any of the strong females. We don’t have to like each others styles but we should respect it on both ends. I like diversity but I also like inclusion.

Aedelric.1287:

JGBarbarian.3579:

What you find interesting I do not, the hero you want I do not. I want a warrior that wrestles bears with his hands, is a tactical genius, charismatic leader, emotionally strong (not daddy issues or anything lie that), mature, heterosexual, married, father of 7 kids (could be more), with huge arms, a huge beard with a mustache. Basically I want a mentor I can respect. You see, people is different and wants different things. Calling me misogynist, sexist, racist, communist, satan worshiper, heteromonster, beard supremacist, evil macho or any other card up your sleeve won’t change that fact You don’t like my style of hero and I don’t like yours, simple story.

Sound like you want Forgal version two.

Yes! In fact I was going to put it in the original post but didn’t want to make it too long. I would like a Forgal without drama (living family) but in the main group of the game.

tmakinen.1048:

This is a good, constructive suggestion.

Like (almost) every post I make, just because you do not agree with some things I say does not make them less constructive.

A new competent male lead does not necessarily mean another muscular dumb Braham or Logan character. The Living Story writers are competent enough, they could come up with an interesting male character that actually adds to the group if they wanted. With an already female heavy cast and an actual demand for a new male lead I see no reason why we can not have one, a few people saying no because other games have many men I personally find unconstructive, it simply is not relevant to Guild Wars. Also, I just want to make it clear I have no desire to see any of the current female character loose their importance or focus.

I hope you do not mind I only quote one piece of your post, I already know your position from our previous discussions and I hope you can understand that I do not really want to argue is circles.

JGBarbarian.3579:

Yes! In fact I was going to put it in the original post but didn’t want to make it too long. I would like a Forgal without drama (living family) but in the main group of the game.

Their is nothing wrong with Forgal or wanting a character like him, but if you had a character similar to him he would still have to bring something new to the table. Something that Forgal did not have and a role that Braham does not currently fill.

This is why we need good variety of all characters in personality/class/sex, the Living story core heroes does not quite yet have that diversity where it can satisfy the majority of people.

Prophet.6257:

I hope they do develop the traditional strong male character. I also hope they don’t push out any of the strong females. We don’t have to like each others styles but we should respect it on both ends. I like diversity but I also like inclusion.

They don’t need to push out any female character, in fact I think that the LS would be a lot better if instead 1 looooong and slooooow story like season 1 they make 3 shorter stories inside a year. You can rotate characters inside those 3 stories, the traditional strong male could lead 1 of those stories and rest on the other 2.
Truth be told, I also think they need to put interesting females as well. I don’t see “strong females” either, my favorite female character of all times/media is the classic Amanda Waller (not todays sexy doll) and I havn’t seen anyone like her. You see, right there is another style of hero I would like to see: female, tactical genius, charismatic, strong leadership, overweight (like my mum and many other women out there I love), does not dress sexy to be seen as a sex icon, serious, heterosexual married with children, no drama, no jokes. The interesting point of her would be how a tactical genius she is and her strength of will for tough decisions. Pair her with my “Forgal” style hero and add frictions like different style of tactics. I would love something like that.

Aedelric.1287:

JGBarbarian.3579:

Yes! In fact I was going to put it in the original post but didn’t want to make it too long. I would like a Forgal without drama (living family) but in the main group of the game.

Their is nothing wrong with Forgal or wanting a character like him, but if you had a character similar to him he would still have to bring something new to the table. Something that Forgal did not have and a role that Braham does not currently fill.

This is why we need good variety of all characters in personality/class/sex, the Living story core heroes does not quite yet have that diversity where it can satisfy the majority of people.

Yes indeed, we are discussing about an mmorpg, this type of games try to reach a wide type of customers. But Forgal was not part of the LS, not even a secondary character like Magnus, imagine if you were to lvl up only 1 toon and it was in the Priory. Then bam! Forgal does not exist for you.

JGBarbarian.3579:

Prophet.6257:

I hope they do develop the traditional strong male character. I also hope they don’t push out any of the strong females. We don’t have to like each others styles but we should respect it on both ends. I like diversity but I also like inclusion.

They don’t need to push out any female character, in fact I think that the LS would be a lot better if instead 1 looooong and slooooow story like season 1 they make 3 shorter stories inside a year. You can rotate characters inside those 3 stories, the traditional strong male could lead 1 of those stories and rest on the other 2.
Truth be told, I also think they need to put interesting females as well. I don’t see “strong females” either, my favorite female character of all times/media is the classic Amanda Waller (not todays sexy doll) and I havn’t seen anyone like her. You see, right there is another style of hero I would like to see: female, tactical genius, charismatic, strong leadership, overweight (like my mum and many other women out there I love), does not dress sexy to be seen as a sex icon, serious, heterosexual married with children, no drama, no jokes. The interesting point of her would be how a tactical genius she is and her strength of will for tough decisions. Pair her with my “Forgal” style hero and add frictions like different style of tactics. I would love something like that.

I love everything about this.

:)

Aedelric.1287:

tmakinen.1048:

This is a good, constructive suggestion.

Like (almost) every post I make, just because you do not agree with some things I say does not make them less constructive.

Incorrect, your posts that claim statistics are bad, useless or disrespectful because the results dont support your argument are not constructive. Posts that claim a magical or special bias exists while completely ignoring the method to determine it’s existence are a waste.
That pretty much sums up most posts in pages 4 & 5

Oi’ lads and lasses, jus’ a quick note fer’ thought. Someone just told me that each expansion of the original guild wars featured a lady for each release on the front cover that was a cannon lead protagonist, purple haired lady for factions (not asian though oddly), black lady for nightfall, and white lady from eye of the north or something.

I only played the first one, prophecies back in the day and even that one featured a gothic lady on the front cova’ art.

So even back in de’ good ol’ days it was sorta there, if anythin’ guild wars lore is not racist so that is good at least, Misandry seems to be a on going tradition though.

Leshain.6720:

So even back in de’ good ol’ days it was sorta there, if anythin’ guild wars lore is not racist so that is good at least, Misandry seems to be a on going tradition though.

I don’t think you understand what misandry would actually entail, and it’s definitely not when men aren’t the main characters of a video game. But, if the video game industry was a bit more diverse with their gender distribution in the first place and gave female protagonists meaningful roles, character and design more often, then maybe there’d be some kind of point… but, even then, not so much since in that alter-reality there’d be prominent representation of all genders… and in an industry where men are on top over 90% of the time… it really isn’t “misandry” to give the spotlight to females in a franchise instead.

Leshain.6720:

Oi’ lads and lasses, jus’ a quick note fer’ thought. Someone just told me that each expansion of the original guild wars featured a lady for each release on the front cover that was a cannon lead protagonist, purple haired lady for factions (not asian though oddly), black lady for nightfall, and white lady from eye of the north or something.

I only played the first one, prophecies back in the day and even that one featured a gothic lady on the front cova’ art.

So even back in de’ good ol’ days it was sorta there, if anythin’ guild wars lore is not racist so that is good at least, Misandry seems to be a on going tradition though.

Not as much as the cover art would imply.

In fact I would say Prophecies was more about defeating the Undead Lich (male), Rurick’s journey (male) and ascension of the player character. Factions was about defeating Shiro Tagachi (male) and Mhenlo’s journey(male). I don’t remember as much about Nightfall b/c of the hours I was working during it but what I do remember is that is was about Abbadon (male) trying to escape the Realm of Torment and Kormir’s (female) ascension into godhood.

WoodenPotatoes does a pretty good video series on some GW lore.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL00553A085339802C

Astral Projections.7320:

~snip~

Oi’! dat’ was a long read lad. Didn’t know that about star trek though because always thought star wars was betta’ because laser swords and powerz.

Being a racist is more extreme to be fair lad.

I just recently re-joined the steam community and browsed dat der’ fancy library of games fo’ sale, the front page of new released gamez be dis’.

So to say that GW2 is being unique by displaying lady power rangers and is standin’ out from the crowed is an overstatement. It is common now an’ days and has been in gaming for about 10 years or so.

Leshain.6720:

Astral Projections.7320:

~snip~

Oi’! dat’ was a long read lad. Didn’t know that about star trek though because always thought star wars was betta’ because laser swords and powerz.

Being a racist is more extreme to be fair lad.

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Present day though there is a huge list of games with female protagonists (Dunno what people here are goin’ on about most other games currently lack female representation dat’ be faw’ from de truth).

Ignorance lads, it be bliss. Although to be fair….. Eh sum’ lads actually embrace more lady characters as leads, buuut not because to relate to them, it’s to stare at a digital pixel ladies tush, i’m jus’ sayin.

I just recently re-joined the steam community and browsed dat der’ fancy library of games fo’ sale, the front page of new released gamez be dis’.

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• Breach & Clear ~ n/a
• YAIBA: NINJA GAIDEN Z ~ lad lead
• Strategic War in Europe ~ n/a
• IHF Handball Challenge 12 ~ n/a
• Science Girls ~ full cast of girl leads
• Hive ~ girl beez be op
• Heroine’s Quest: The Herald of Ragnarok ~ lady lead
• Influent ~ lad lead
• Cloudbuilt ~ lady lead
• Alpha Kimori ~ dunno

So to say that GW2 is being unique by displaying lady power rangers and is standin’ out from the crowed is an overstatement. It is common now an’ days and has been in gaming for about 10 years or so.

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Also as an extra incentive to show i ain’t against lady leads, Nilin from the underrated capcom game “Remember Me” is a better protagonist than the likes of Nathan Drake, Marcus Feline, Master Chef, Shepard of sheep, Duke shukem or any other current triple a game.

The lass is also relatable. It is possible to relate to a lady character as a lad, if they’re written well and aren’t there just for the eye candy~ although that is a bonus if both are achieved. I’m jus’ sayin.

Really? that seems to contradict proffesional research in the area

Such as:
86% of a year’s protagonists were male
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-009-9637-1
96% of last year’s top 25 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/06/women-in-film-video-games_n_4548558.html (not a peer-reviewed research journal, but it still shows you who has the spotlight and it’s much more recent than the first link)
And they’re represented in a more positive way while women are still left out and sexualized (published 3 weeks ago, quite recent imo) https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/handle/2142/47355

To claim misandry you’d have to completely ignore the rest of the industry.

Kit.3986:

(Males don’t -need- more game heroes… there are countless, countless, countless of them)

I fundamentally disagree.

Everyone needs heroes, well written characters that exemplify virtuous traits. The vast majority of heroes in video games may be male, but how many of them are actually well written? The proper answer to a genre that is skewed in a certain direct is not an equally skewed backlash, it is ascension. It is rising above the current model and creating a greater work with well written characters from many archetypes to make the best story possible.

We need good female heroes. We need good male heroes. We need good heroes of various ages, ethnicities, vocations, and personality types. And we will never, ever reach a point when we do not need heroes.

tmakinen.1048:

So, please be positive. The best way to make a contribution is to describe an existing or a new character you would like to see in the story — and who just happens to be male, in contrast to making ‘maleness’ the only relevant criterion.

A very fine point. On that note…

I would like a good father figure archetype. Wise, supportive, and deeply committed to the care and wellbeing of all he holds dear. Someone who sees violence as a last resort and can say more in a single sentence of quiet advice than most can say in a lifetime. A GW2 version of Atticus Finch, if that’s not too tall an order.

I would like to see a well written married couple. Not a couple in the middle of romance, not a courting pair caught up in infatuation, but a husband and wife who have been married for years and treat it like it ain’t no thing. The kind of pair with tons of in-jokes and quirky mannerisms who fit together like two pieces of a puzzle, not because their romance was written in the stars, but because they’ve worked kitten their relationship and care deeply about one another. The kind of couple who take on the world together and win.

I would like to see an Asuran Peacemaker officer action hero who talks like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Because there is nothing wrong with silly characters, and sometimes the story needs a two foot titan with a laser minigun proclaiming “Come with me if you want to live.” And other lines (NSFW), of course.

I’d like to see a Kodan denmother sort of figure, a wise old matron looking after her now-grown cubs. The kind of lady who doesn’t seek out trouble, but when something threatens her family she tends to beat them to death with their own skulls. And yes, that’s a female character. No reason more of both can’t be added.

I want an incredibly dapper gentleman. The kind who takes up the right and proper pursuit for a chap of noble bearing: traveling to distant lands, meeting exciting new creatures, and then killing them and mounting their heads on his manor wall. Always enthusiastic, ever fearless, and ready for a spot of daring-do! The kind of character who loves nothing more than an afternoon of slaughtering dragon minions and drinking tea.

I also think the story would benefit from a fish-out-of-water sort of character, gender nonspecific. A Tengu born and raised within the Domain of Winds, for example, who has no understanding whatsoever of the rest of Tyria’s culture or mannerisms. Or perhaps a Largos far from home trying to grow accustomed to an environment that isn’t following the “stab first and ask questions later” ruleset.

And finally, I want Palawa Joko back. Because he is amazing.

Shriketalon.1937:

Kit.3986:

(Males don’t -need- more game heroes… there are countless, countless, countless of them)

I fundamentally disagree.

Everyone needs heroes, well written characters that exemplify virtuous traits. The vast majority of heroes in video games may be male, but how many of them are actually well written? The proper answer to a genre that is skewed in a certain direct is not an equally skewed backlash, it is ascension. It is rising above the current model and creating a greater work with well written characters from many archetypes to make the best story possible.

We need good female heroes. We need good male heroes. We need good heroes of various ages, ethnicities, vocations, and personality types. And we will never, ever reach a point when we do not need heroes.

Everyone does. So, less male ones (86% of the time are protagonists according to the study linked above), and more needed ones — you know, the groups of people who don’t have a lot of heroes representing them. The ones that are underneath that 86% take more priority from my perspective, as… well, males get this huge bucket full of chocolate raisins, whereas females get slightly more than a tenth of that. Other groups less.

My point is: There’s so many male leads, so many strong males, so many Mary Sue “Good at everything” males, that giving screentime to female characters, working and spending time on female characters, is more important because of how females lack those heroes to begin with. And it might shift the incredibly sexist attitudes that pervade the gaming community in general…. well, one can hope.

There are tons of other underrepresented groups in media as well, and they do, to me, take more precedence on the basis that they aren’t on equal footing with what’s already out there for the (yes) privileged group of people who have just about everything catered specifically to them.

Kit.3986:

There are tons of other underrepresented groups in media as well, and they do, to me, take more precedence on the basis that they aren’t on equal footing with what’s already out there for the (yes) privileged group of people who have just about everything catered specifically to them.

And how many of those underrepresented people have a Y chromosome?

Remember, friend, I wasn’t disagreeing with you about representing other groups of people. The exact line I took issue with was “Men don’t need more game heroes.” That’s a dangerously broad statement that frames everything from a single perspective, gender, and decides that everything that falls into one side of the category is unnecessary. Yet there are tons of male characters that don’t fit into the standard Grizzled Strong Alpha Male archetype that would be left out in the cold by such a wideranged dismissal of an entire gender.

When writing a good narrative, one must be careful about broad declarations such as these, for they may well end up sacrificing the very ideal they claim to cherish.

Shriketalon.1937:

Kit.3986:

There are tons of other underrepresented groups in media as well, and they do, to me, take more precedence on the basis that they aren’t on equal footing with what’s already out there for the (yes) privileged group of people who have just about everything catered specifically to them.

And how many of those underrepresented people have a Y chromosome?

Well 419 out of the 489 characters in the study and 24 out of the 25 protagonists of last year’s top games are males. So I’d guess a lot of the underrepresented have that chromosome.
Racial representation is another research subject
Blacks are usually left out http://gac.sagepub.com/content/4/1/3.short in favor of whites when it comes to the protagonist.
And they’re more likely to be the aggresive thugs than whites http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15213269.2011.596467#.Uy-BWfl5O5c
Female minorities are virtually non-existant.

Raziel.4216:

Racial representation is another research subject.

….That is what I was implying. When someone makes a statement such as “men don’t need more game heroes”, that statement excludes groups such as minority males, gay males, and males who don’t fit the “grizzled adult alpha male” standard for reasons of age, personality, or disability.

If someone were to say “grizzled alpha males don’t need more game heroes”, that is a completely different story. One must be careful about overly broad exclusionary statements. Hence the disagreement.

Shriketalon.1937:

Raziel.4216:

Racial representation is another research subject.

….That is what I was implying. When someone makes a statement such as “men don’t need more game heroes”, that statement excludes groups such as minority males, gay males, and males who don’t fit the “grizzled adult alpha male” standard for reasons of age, personality, or disability.

If someone were to say “grizzled alpha males don’t need more game heroes”, that is a completely different story. One must be careful about overly broad exclusionary statements. Hence the disagreement.

Suddenly a good portion of my childhood heroes are considered to be a bad thing.

Kit.3986:

Shriketalon.1937:

Kit.3986:

(Males don’t -need- more game heroes… there are countless, countless, countless of them)

I fundamentally disagree.

Everyone needs heroes, well written characters that exemplify virtuous traits. The vast majority of heroes in video games may be male, but how many of them are actually well written? The proper answer to a genre that is skewed in a certain direct is not an equally skewed backlash, it is ascension. It is rising above the current model and creating a greater work with well written characters from many archetypes to make the best story possible.

We need good female heroes. We need good male heroes. We need good heroes of various ages, ethnicities, vocations, and personality types. And we will never, ever reach a point when we do not need heroes.

Everyone does. So, less male ones (86% of the time are protagonists according to the study linked above), and more needed ones — you know, the groups of people who don’t have a lot of heroes representing them. The ones that are underneath that 86% take more priority from my perspective, as… well, males get this huge bucket full of chocolate raisins, whereas females get slightly more than a tenth of that. Other groups less.

My point is: There’s so many male leads, so many strong males, so many Mary Sue “Good at everything” males, that giving screentime to female characters, working and spending time on female characters, is more important because of how females lack those heroes to begin with. And it might shift the incredibly sexist attitudes that pervade the gaming community in general…. well, one can hope.

There are tons of other underrepresented groups in media as well, and they do, to me, take more precedence on the basis that they aren’t on equal footing with what’s already out there for the (yes) privileged group of people who have just about everything catered specifically to them.

I don’t understand you. You want a mmorpg virtual world to be only for women and only certain males because they are underepresented in another games? Are you serious? You know why some games are so successfull and why some hero style is overepresented? Maybe because that is what the majority of the gamers wanted? I know that today gaming is expanding, but you would really like for people that want those heroes to simply put their money in to some other game? That is like putting a wall and saying “we accept only traumatized/submissive males here, you have to be how we want or leave”. Would that be smart? Would you be happy in that type of closed, selective, not very much plural world?

Addition: An mmorpg is a game of its own kind and specially guild wars 2, with the intention of beign inclusive of all people. Is a game of interactions between many many players, a virtual world. I am not against you having your paradise free of macho heroes but is it smart for that to be an mmorpg that takes so much time to create and requires a big amount of customers to be involved in a long period of time? I can answer that I know an example but in the other way around, Age of Conan never interested females (almost none) because over representation of the hero you hate and I like and I think it was a mistake. Why? It was a mmorpg, to survive it has to bring a wide type of players and if it alienates a group it is not smart because there is no mmo without many players. Going back to GW2 now: I am starting to feel alienated by the story, like this world does not want me. Should I silently take my money elsewhere? I am alone in that sentiment or there are others (lots or few)?

Astral Projections.7320:

No, I’m more referring more to the ones that say they can’t relate to the NPCs in the story line because they are female and asking to that the next story line has less females and more men for that reason.

Women have endured centuries of not being represented and not having strong females to look up to, to having the women shown as being less than men. If men are uncomfortable with just one story in just one game not having a majority cast of men and the man not being the major lead person, maybe they need to consider why they are uncomfortable and feel it so necessary to ask for fewer women and more men.

And I am off for the night. If I can we can pick this up tomorrow. :-)

Blame biology and men who misunderstood it. Men have a natural compulsion to protect and provide for their mate and offspring. Sometimes we misunderstand this compulsion as possession and superiority. But I am sure it is more complicated than this layman’s overview.

With so many pages of posts and an obvious demand for new male leads I am interested in seeing if future Living Story updates will actually address the issue. The Living Story writers are good enough to make a fun/unique character, I personally just hope it is not just another emotionally stunted Sylvari, we all know how much Arena Net seem to love the Sylvari.

Unfortunately due to this being such a controversial topic I doubt we will ever get an official reply from the writers and actually see their opinions on the subject. I guess that is understandable, they do not want to ruffle anyone’s feathers.

Currently what I want to see introduced into the Living Story is this new Tengu mini become a fully fledged character, everyone loves Tengu. Or perhaps a unique mad Skritt mechanic from the Brisban Wildlands, the awakening of a dragon would affect Skritt in that region greatly. Or even Canach would do, if he joined the current cast of heroes he would add nicely to the group dynamic, he has a unique view of the world as evident by his actions at Southsun.

I have an idea. Rather than the discussions of, “Would you be happy if <existing female character> were male,” or, “Privilege,” and so forth, why not put forth a question purely for amusement?

Let’s say Anet comes up to you and hires you to be part of the Living Story development team, asking you to create a new character to fit into the ,‘New Destiny’s Edge,’ that is currently comprised of Rox, Marjory, Kasmeer, Taimi, and Braham. Their rules are simple: this character can be any race and profession, but has to be male.

So, it’s up to you to create this character who fits into the group and contributes. Overlap is acceptable (can be another strong guy like Braham, or a brainy person like Taimi, or an intuitive person like Marjory, etc…).

What would you all add?

Vexander.9850:

What would you all add?

A steam ogre

Vexander.9850:

What would you all add?

I would like to see peoples ideas also, only a few have suggested any so far. Even if it is another female character someone wants it would still be worth mentioning, to see what kind of female character people would rather have that they find more relatable. Unfortunately I already gave a few suggestions of my own, so repeating it again in this post would be pointless.

Vexander.9850:

What would you all add?

This is pretty much the same suggestion I made a bit earlier. Anyway, I’d add an utterly lovable and reliably unreliable conman in the vein of Moist von Lipwig from the Discworld novels, a person with a great potential for good under certain circumstances (that might contain golems as probation officers, or assassination contracts should he stray from the proper path) and great potential for mischief if left on his own devices (but only because it’s boring to be good).

I’d think someone witty and funny could work, always ready with a quip, but still a loyal friend and a good fighter. A bit like Tybalt perhaps, or Mal Reynolds? Not that the existing Biconics are deadly serious all the time (though Kas has a tendency to be very earnest), but we haven’t had a dashing roguish type of character in the two guilds yet that I can think of. Profession-wise we’ve had all 8 now, but perhaps thief (the more obvious choice for such an archetype), or a warrior (so there’d be 2 light, 2 medium and 2 heavy without duplicates).

Alternatively, get Heal-o-Tron some armor and weaponry and get him on the team! I’m sure Taimi could tweak him out with some cool stuff.

I think some of the problem is down to the serial nature of the Living Story. It’s hard to get a sense of how all the characters fit in ‘in the moment’ because we are (potentially) only seeing a small portion of the larger story. For all we know, the next update could have half the Biconics getting eaten by Mordremoth, or bring in some new character who will end up with a bigger role than anyone, even Trahearne or the faction leaders. It will depend on the availability of the voice actors, as well. I’ll be very surprised if there aren’t new major male characters introduced in the next season though, I can’t see why there wouldn’t be.

I’d rather they work on developing the characters they have instead of trying to add something more interesting on top.

panzer.6034:

I’d rather they work on developing the characters they have instead of trying to add something more interesting on top.

I see no reason why they can not do both, develop current characters further and slowly introduce a handful of new.

The Living Story season two will require more characters just for the fact that it has a new story to tell in a different place against a different foe.

I’m not sure if I mentioned it in this thread or not myself.

I’d like to see a character who is a human male and fits the, ‘Gentleman and a Scholar,’ trope with a side of, ‘Bad kitten Bookworm,’ and ‘Gentleman Wizard.’ Essentially, someone who is a highly intelligent, socially pleasant individual with magical talent. Describe him as a second Lord Odran in the making, with his main weakness being the, ‘Brilliant but Lazy,’ trope. He’d rather smell the roses than obtain great magical power.

I’d also like his focus to actually be on magic. In so many ways, magic feels like a footnote for the races than a major force. It’s with Scarlet that we actually saw magic as something more important than a fuel source for the Asura. Human Lore is very rich when it comes to magic, and it’d be nice to see that come back to the forefront with this character in a drastically changed world.

Let his knowledge and skill with magic be something new for the Biconics. Maybe he’s the one who can stop some big bad from corrupting a Bloodstone. Maybe he can provide the relevant information that allows Marjory to unravel a puzzle or mystery as her own magical knowledge is secondary to her detective skills. Maybe something he says inspires Taimi to create some new piece of Asuran Technology that helps the effort against the next big bad’s forces.

He doesn’t need to be center stage, but he can be. As for his personal life, he’s a dandy bachelor. Not looking for a relationship, not particularly interested in one, and no, people don’t need to fawn over him or even show interest in him that way. He could be an orphan with connections from his days in the orphanage. Earned scholarships that paid for his education, works in the employ of the Ministry or Queen.

That is a character I think I would enjoy seeing Vexander, definitely a step up from Braham.

Aedelric.1287:

That is a character I think I would enjoy seeing Vexander, definitely a step up from Braham.

I’m a bit loathe to add in -another- human to be honest, but Kasmeer and Marjory don’t really address some of the major facets of human lore or culture really. Kasmeer could really do well on that point if her past as a Noble was more developed and looked into. Marjory is a detective, which is really interesting and her intuition makes her kind of the Eir Stegalkin of the group, but her own ethnicity or background doesn’t tie into the human lore.

JGBarbarian.3579:

I don’t understand you. You want a mmorpg virtual world to be only for women and only certain males because they are underepresented in another games? Are you serious?

You do realize that the # of named males outnumber the # of females in GW2,? almost 2 to 1 based on the GW wiki

JGBarbarian.3579:

You know why some games are so successfull and why some hero style is overepresented? Maybe because that is what the majority of the gamers wanted?

45% of gamers (more according to different sources, but it’s around there) are female.
I doubt they wanted only 1 female protagonist in last year’s top games.

JGBarbarian.3579:

I know that today gaming is expanding, but you would really like for people that want those heroes to simply put their money in to some other game?

After having that hero in almost every other game I’m sure they can live without it in a few games.

JGBarbarian.3579:

That is like putting a wall and saying “we accept only traumatized/submissive males here, you have to be how we want or leave”.

What? How did you even reach that conclusion?

JGBarbarian.3579:

Would that be smart? Would you be happy in that type of closed, selective, not very much plural world?

Funny you say that when the vast majority of the industry catters to you

A typical white alpha-dude hero would take away from the story, not add to it.

Vexander.9850:

What would you all add?

I would like to see some characters that break their racial molds a little bit. An honorless antihero Tengu, a hardened war loving human, an old charr Priory member. Maybe even some members of our current enemies that agree to help us defeat Mordremoth for their own well being. Faolain comes to mind first but maybe throw in a love interest for some of the other leads as well. Specifically, I would like to see a biconic asuran male be introduced. Maybe an inquest type guy that’s got eyes for Zojja or something. That way our two dominate sets of heros have a little more crossover. Seeing Logan and Rytlock in LA during the LS was pretty cool.