Season 2 "Get Ready"
so in short, you want Anet to hold hands so you understand what is gonna happen…..
I think you remember Prophecies, Nightfall and Eye of the North quite a bit wrongly.
It took quite some time before we saw the Lich, Abaddon and the Great Destroyer respectively. In fact in Prophecies it took more or less until the very end before we knew who the big enemy was.
Same with Zhaitan in GW2.
More or less the first half of the personal story in GW2 have basically nothing to do directly with Zhaitan.
Its first direct attack takes place in Battle of Claw Island, which is rather far into the story.
I personally prefer a more “realistic” story, where the big enemy doesn’t simply do something massively evil for the whole world to see as soon as he/she/it turns up
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
(edited by lordkrall.7241)
Half the fun was reading people’s theories and coming up with my own. I loved not knowing what was happening. It actually took a while before everyone was convinced that the different events were actually linked and everyone started asking why someone would combine all these different groups.
I’m hoping with Mordremoth awake, we get more zones opening up in some of the other areas like Maguuma or Magus Falls.
“The Stargate film opens with Ra abducting his future host and slaves.”
Would just like to point out that this example is incorrect. The film starts out with the unearthing of the gate in 1928, followed by Daniel Jackson giving a lecture on the pyramids. The viewer does not see the instance of Ra taking the young boy until 3/4 of the way into the film when Daniel Jackson is translating the hidden hieroglyphics in the sealed off ruins with Colonel Jack O’Neil, the other soldiers, Sha’uri, Skaara and the other ‘kids’. This happens just before the cartouche is discovered with the 7th symbol worn off of it.
:)
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(edited by StinVec.3621)
- Darth Vader within the first 10 minutes of Star Wars.
Actually in the first movie Darth Vader was just an Champion henchmen, we don’t see the Emperor until the third movie.
- Smaug within the first 15 minutes of The Hobbit.
We don’t actually see him until the 2nd movie. He’s a background detail in the first movie honestly.
- Jaws within the first 5 minutes of Jaws.
Only actually becomes actively involved halfway into the movie.
- The Joker within the first 15 minutes of The Dark Knight.
I’ll give you that one.
- Bane within the first 10 minutes of The Dark Knight Rises.
SPOILER ALERT: he wasn’t actually the bad guy, he’s more like a Elite Henchmen.
- V’Ger within the first 10 minutes of Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
We actually didn’t know who or what Voyager was. In fact V’Ger was kinda a good computer.
- Shinzon’s co-conspirator wiping-out the Romulan Senate within the first 5 minutes of Star Trek: Nemesis.
I don’t think we want to strive to Shinzon-quality.
- A Clockwork Orange opens with a close-up of a smiling Alex, planning a night of ultra-violence.
Actually he was the protagonist. It would have been odd to hide him away.
- Iron Man 2 opens with Ivan Vanko watching his father die and then preparing for his revenge against Tony Stark.
- Captain America: The First Avenger begins with Red Skull finding and stealing the Tesseract.
Yeah I’ll give you those as well, but Vanko wasn’t all that great as a bad guy.
What makes the living world story most frustrating for me is that it does not follow what Anet had done in every Guild Wars game they produced. They used the villain opening scene plot device. They even used this to introduce Zhaitan in GW2. But they did not do this with Scarlet Briar in season one of the Living World story. Instead we had to wait FOR MONTHS as the story lingered not having a clue where it was going or how it would end.
My opinion was always that they pull Scarlet from the aether in order to attempt and create a overarching story. I think S1 suffered a bit from a lack of focus in the beginning.
I want Anet to start LWS S2 with a bang showing us THE VILLAIN doing something villainous so that wets out appetite to say, “Wow I can’t wait to take them down!” Like we said with Zhaitan.
Did I miss something? I don’t remember Zhaitan coming into things until halfway through the personal story. I guess the Sylvari starting area has some Risen, but that’s it. Unless you’re not referring to in-game, but rather out-game materials.
- The Joker within the first 15 minutes of The Dark Knight.
I’ll give you that one.
Was it not a better movie for it?
- Bane within the first 10 minutes of The Dark Knight Rises.
SPOILER ALERT: he wasn’t actually the bad guy, he’s more like a Elite Henchmen.
I know, but he was there front and center from the beginning.
- V’Ger within the first 10 minutes of Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
We actually didn’t know who or what Voyager was. In fact V’Ger was kinda a good computer.
Its existence was shown in the very beginning even if we did not know its name.
What makes the living world story most frustrating for me is that it does not follow what Anet had done in every Guild Wars game they produced. They used the villain opening scene plot device. They even used this to introduce Zhaitan in GW2. But they did not do this with Scarlet Briar in season one of the Living World story. Instead we had to wait FOR MONTHS as the story lingered not having a clue where it was going or how it would end.
My opinion was always that they pull Scarlet from the aether in order to attempt and create a overarching story. I think S1 suffered a bit from a lack of focus in the beginning.
Exactly! That’s my point and complaint. The “lack of focus in the beginning” is what I’m talking about.
I want Anet to start LWS S2 with a bang showing us THE VILLAIN doing something villainous so that wets out appetite to say, “Wow I can’t wait to take them down!” Like we said with Zhaitan.
Did I miss something? I don’t remember Zhaitan coming into things until halfway through the personal story. I guess the Sylvari starting area has some Risen, but that’s it. Unless you’re not referring to in-game, but rather out-game materials.
He was advertised in the trailers and fans knew he was the main villain even before playing.
(edited by Korval.3751)
I’m going out on a limb to say Anet should do what they did in Guild Wars, Factions, Nightfall, Eye of the North, and the launch of GW2 itself: SHOW the antagonist early so we know who we are up against. Nothing is more frustrating than going month after month at a snail’s pace not knowing what the story is about or where it’s heading, or worse who the villain is.
Here are some well-known examples of villains who are introduced right from the beginning.
- Darth Vader within the first 10 minutes of Star Wars.
- Sauron within the first 10 minutes of Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring. (You spend 3 movies watching the outcome unfold)
- Smaug within the first 15 minutes of The Hobbit.
- Jaws within the first 5 minutes of Jaws.
- The Joker within the first 15 minutes of The Dark Knight.
- Bane within the first 10 minutes of The Dark Knight Rises.
- V’Ger within the first 10 minutes of Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
- Shinzon’s co-conspirator wiping-out the Romulan Senate within the first 5 minutes of Star Trek: Nemesis.
- The Stargate film opens with Ra abducting his future host and slaves.
- A Clockwork Orange opens with a close-up of a smiling Alex, planning a night of ultra-violence.
- Iron Man 2 opens with Ivan Vanko watching his father die and then preparing for his revenge against Tony Stark.
- Captain America: The First Avenger begins with Red Skull finding and stealing the Tesseract.
and so forth…What makes the living world story most frustrating for me is that it does not follow what Anet had done in every Guild Wars game they produced. They used the villain opening scene plot device. They even used this to introduce Zhaitan in GW2. But they did not do this with Scarlet Briar in season one of the Living World story. Instead we had to wait FOR MONTHS as the story lingered not having a clue where it was going or how it would end.
I want Anet to start LWS S2 with a bang showing us THE VILLAIN doing something villainous so that wets out appetite to say, “Wow I can’t wait to take them down!” Like we said with Zhaitan.
Silly person, you have to fight all the mooks before you see the big bad :P
We saw Zhaitin pretty early on, heck in the intro really, then we (beam spammed) killed em. WhenScarlet died, we saw Mordremoth awaken,(for that matter all of Tyria heard it, so thats something!) so now we’re going to go kill him. Pretty direct really. Also, Mordremoth DID do something (or maybe its unknown as of yet champion) its what broke scarlet and made her go all saturday morning villain on us, and id say all the crap she did over the past year counts as “doing something” Perhaps you haven’t been to Lions Arch recently ?
Actually the Joker was introduced at the end of Batman Begins
I think it’s better to say that you want to introduce the IDEA of the big-bad fairly early on, but that doesn’t mean they should enter the story just yet.
Let’s look at a classic RPG, Final Fantasy 4. First of all, we have Kain who switches sides back and forth as his mind is manipulated. It happens to Yang as well, making it clear that it’s not something they can control. Any darkness within them allows it to happen. Then, we also have the Fiend of Fire, Rubicante. Despite being a major boss and the most powerful of the 4 Fiends, he proves to be an honorable opponent and actually apologizes for what one of his minions did.
By introducing the ideas that:
- people can be mind controlled to do evil things
- not all foes are as evil as they may appear
they establish everything you need to know so that, when you defeat the “final” boss Golbez that you’ve been after all this time, the plot twist that follows doesn’t feel like it’s pulled out of their kitten . Instead, the reveal of the true evil flows from previous story elements and makes sense.
That’s what they need to do here. Scarlet was poorly hinted at, at best, and felt like they were just making crap up to try and patch together unrelated storylines into something epic. That’s one of the (many) reasons why she failed as a character and a plot device. She didn’t follow the rules of the story, she broke them.
With that in mind, they can start laying the groundwork for any big bosses or enemies well in advance of them ever appearing, and make it work. You don’t actually need to show them to establish their place within the story.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
I agree with the OP, you don’t to hand over the whole story straight away but offering something interesting for people to speculate on at the start of the LS would be a good idea.
I hated the fact that the last LS was basically just speculation and guess work through the majority of the story. Its good to know why we are doing things, ‘just because’ doesn’t really cut it in good story telling.
I think it’s better to say that you want to introduce the IDEA of the big-bad fairly early on, but that doesn’t mean they should enter the story just yet.
Let’s look at a classic RPG, Final Fantasy 4. First of all, we have Kain who switches sides back and forth as his mind is manipulated. It happens to Yang as well, making it clear that it’s not something they can control. Any darkness within them allows it to happen. Then, we also have the Fiend of Fire, Rubicante. Despite being a major boss and the most powerful of the 4 Fiends, he proves to be an honorable opponent and actually apologizes for what one of his minions did.
By introducing the ideas that:
- people can be mind controlled to do evil things
- not all foes are as evil as they may appear
they establish everything you need to know so that, when you defeat the “final” boss Golbez that you’ve been after all this time, the plot twist that follows doesn’t feel like it’s pulled out of their kitten . Instead, the reveal of the true evil flows from previous story elements and makes sense.
That’s what they need to do here. Scarlet was poorly hinted at, at best, and felt like they were just making crap up to try and patch together unrelated storylines into something epic. That’s one of the (many) reasons why she failed as a character and a plot device. She didn’t follow the rules of the story, she broke them.
With that in mind, they can start laying the groundwork for any big bosses or enemies well in advance of them ever appearing, and make it work. You don’t actually need to show them to establish their place within the story.
Palador you have perfectly explained what I was trying to communicate. I don’t want Anet to give away the plot. I just want to know who the big baddy is. And their introduction is usually seen in the opening cinematic or trailer.
Case in point, Shiro Tagachi in GW:Factions.
Arthas/Lich King in WOW:Wrath of the Lich King.
Deathwing in WOW:Cataclysm.
and so forth.
(edited by Korval.3751)
I agree with the OP… Seriously, Zhaitan felt like Necron from FFIX: who the heck is this boss?
Ok, we heard Zhaitan’s name countless times, BUT. To me, Zhaitan should have raided us at least once (he got eyes after all), but no, he waited till we shot it.
I wouldn’t mind encountering Mordy right at launch and taking a trashing. We need to build the antagonism, not just know we will eventually reach our enemy after having found a medecine for our friend, kicked the kitten of the ringmaster, and followed Saladerne through lands swarming with Risen…
Guild leader of The Nephilim of Elysium.
Son of Elonia.
Son of Elonia.
Yeah, would be nice to start off with getting a beating. This is the awakening of an Elder Dragon we are talking about. Make the introductionary Living Story event seem or feel like a defeat even in gold reward. Those who value the story will appreciate the chance for a true retaliation later. Those who only play for the reward wont care anyway.
Yeah, would be nice to start off with getting a beating. This is the awakening of an Elder Dragon we are talking about. Make the introductionary Living Story event seem or feel like a defeat even in gold reward. Those who value the story will appreciate the chance for a true retaliation later. Those who only play for the reward wont care anyway.
The Wrath of the Lich King pre-launch event was an 8-phased world event update where the armies of Northrend attacked Stormwind and Orgrimmar.
http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=48283/pre-wotlk-scourge-invasion-updated-11-10
This is what episode 1 of LWS Season 2 needs to be. A big HOORAH introduction to the new baddie by total ownage. Not only will we be like “OMG!” but we’ll also be like, “You are so going down Mord!”
The thing is, in a game, pretty much everything is from the player perspective, except for cut scenes. Usually you don’t encounter the end boss until the end.
We have already seen Mordremoth (I assume) in a cut scene, but the characters won’t see him in person for a while.
It’s possible he could make an appearance, and then fly off, leaving you to deal with his minions, but that’s kind of cheesy.
From what I understand, the dragons themselves are not smart. Rather, it is their more powerful minions that are smart, and then that intelligence passes up the link into the dragon. That’s part of the reason why I want us to interact with minions more at first.
The dragons are rabid, wild animals. Dangerous, but not actually evil. Any evil comes from their minions, the champions and lieutenants. I’d like to see that explored a bit more in the next LS.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
From what I understand, the dragons themselves are not smart. Rather, it is their more powerful minions that are smart, and then that intelligence passes up the link into the dragon. That’s part of the reason why I want us to interact with minions more at first.
The dragons are rabid, wild animals. Dangerous, but not actually evil. Any evil comes from their minions, the champions and lieutenants. I’d like to see that explored a bit more in the next LS.
The Elder Dragons show intellect, strategy, and personality. Just read Edge of Destiny and it is shown pointblank – or read Sea of Sorrows and you can see hints of it.
The Elder Dragons learn everything their minions knew and know – that means that they each have the knowledge of countless civilizations. That doesn’t seem “not smart” to me, nor does it seem like “rabid, wild animals”. They are very sapient, definitely strategic (Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik both targeted threats to them early on – attacking Order HQs, trying to defame and/or kill Trahearne and the PC, or in Kralk’s case going to kill Glint).
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I think you remember Prophecies, Nightfall and Eye of the North quite a bit wrongly.
It took quite some time before we saw the Lich, Abaddon and the Great Destroyer respectively. In fact in Prophecies it took more or less until the very end before we knew who the big enemy was.
Same with Zhaitan in GW2.
More or less the first half of the personal story in GW2 have basically nothing to do directly with Zhaitan.
Its first direct attack takes place in Battle of Claw Island, which is rather far into the story.I personally prefer a more “realistic” story, where the big enemy doesn’t simply do something massively evil for the whole world to see as soon as he/she/it turns up
I think you don’t remember those games very well either…..
- In GW, Nightfall, we saw fallen statues of Abaddon in the opening cutscene.
- In Eye of the North, the Great Destroyer was talked about very early in the game, and we spent most of the game bringing everyone together so we can defeat the thing.
- In Factions, the promotional trailer shows Shiro doing exactly what the game says he did.
- In GW2, most trailers, previews, everything clearly showed that our enemy in the game was the Elder Dragons. It isn’t relevant if it was Zhaitan or Jormag or another dragon(the first one actually shown in gw2 proper was the Shatterer and people were excited to kill that thing at the time!). The main enemy was very clearly defined from the beginning, which was Elder Dragons.
While you don’t see the main bad guy himself, there is quite a bit of epic foreshadowing in each of these games on who exactly you are going to fight. The only exception is Prophecies which is the only story that didn’t clearly define the enemy until the end (unless you count living world season 1).
I do agree that we don’t need to see some sort of epic scene of the bad guy wrecking everything at the very start (the only example I can think of in video games that wasn’t totally awful is Final Fantasy X)
@OP, The main Villain was already introduced during the last cut scene at the end of the 1st season of the living world. We already know who the bad guy is and what he/she/schlee, is capable of doing based on what we know the other Elder Dragons are capable of. You already got exactly what you are asking for.
@OP, The main Villain was already introduced during the last cut scene at the end of the 1st season of the living world. We already know who the bad guy is and what he/she/schlee, is capable of doing based on what we know the other Elder Dragons are capable of. You already got exactly what you are asking for.
The LWS S1 closing trailer doesn’t actually show IF Mord wakes up or even if he IS the baddie of LWS S2. They just show magic flowing into his mouth and then a roar. I’m asking for confirmation in the form of a more formal introduction in whatever form that takes.
From what I understand, the dragons themselves are not smart. Rather, it is their more powerful minions that are smart, and then that intelligence passes up the link into the dragon. That’s part of the reason why I want us to interact with minions more at first.
The dragons are rabid, wild animals. Dangerous, but not actually evil. Any evil comes from their minions, the champions and lieutenants. I’d like to see that explored a bit more in the next LS.
The Elder Dragons show intellect, strategy, and personality. Just read Edge of Destiny and it is shown pointblank – or read Sea of Sorrows and you can see hints of it.
The Elder Dragons learn everything their minions knew and know – that means that they each have the knowledge of countless civilizations. That doesn’t seem “not smart” to me, nor does it seem like “rabid, wild animals”. They are very sapient, definitely strategic (Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik both targeted threats to them early on – attacking Order HQs, trying to defame and/or kill Trahearne and the PC, or in Kralk’s case going to kill Glint).
Or alternatively they’re not so smart but there underlings are (we know for a fact Zhaitan’s minions could talk, think, and led the armies of Zhaitan. A argument could be made that Zhaitan is single minded in his desire to consume magic and the thinking is left up to his minions as to how they’d achieve said goal. However (and this probably goes back to the point of this thread) since we never actually interact with Zhaitan (or actually see him) basically until right at the end (and then our interaction is primarily via cannon fire) we only have second hand accounts to verify if he’s smart or not. We know that EDs are described as being like natural disasters (I think the Zypherites have a bit of dialogue in this regards), but then they’re also (as you pointed out) said to have all the knowledge of everyone they corrupted. So who knows.
Would be nice if we could exchange a few words with Mordy, or heck even if he’d just do the whole doom and gloom evil speech thing while raining down destruction (on what I’m not sure, not LA since it’s already pretty much destroyed).