Guild Wars 2

Balthazar wants to be an only god… So I think that other Gods “dimmed his light”. Doesn’t look like Balthazar is cooperating with Lyssa, at least we know nothing about it.

What’s about Palawa Joko? Will his forces unite with ours to kill Balthazar?

I think I saw Rytlock, Kasmeer and Canach at the trailer.

Kasmeer looks like somebody smashed her face 1000 times. She looks so sad, disappointed, exhausted. I don’t know it’s a good idea to let Kas go to Crystal Desert. But I hope she will become Mirage.

I think I saw Canach- seems he is also interested in this extraordinary event. I like him so he is welcome.

I think Rytlock is going to be one of the major characters. I can’t wait to see what he saw in the Mists!!

Marjory… I think she will not recover for now. She’s obviously weakened.

Braham- it seems he is going to come back to our team. I hope…

Rox- she didn’t die thankfully. I kiss your feets ma’am xD

Aurene is obviously going to be the most important character.

Caithe- I hope she will join us in Crystal Desert. But she will likely find her sneaky way to get there. We will be just beaching and she will be already there. xD

Lyssa is Jennah and Anise- you heard it first here.

I am really surprised PoF starts in 1,5 months! Wow. I love all the new specs. Mounts look amazing and maps are just wow. Anet take my money! xD

I am happy it’s going to be PvE expansion. It’s what I was waiting for.

I also didn’t expect it’d be so complex announcement. In HoT’s PAX we saw some pics and poor explanations but in this announcement they showed us so many amazing things, the trailer is amazing and recap trailer has a narrator!!!!!! This is what I was waiting for a year! But they give a “mind blowing” scene too often- I mean Trahearne…

Ohhh Scarlet… It’s all your “merit”

Arden.7480:

What’s about Palawa Joko? Will his forces unite with ours to kill Balthazar?

I’m tempted to speculate yes, an uneasy alliance. Presumably Balthazar will be threatening Joko also.

My additional speculation will be Season 4 Living World will involve us dealing with Joko, heading into Kourna to begin to root him out, once we’re done with him as an “ally”.

Well Joko is not unfamiliar with concept of allying with outsider heroes to secure his ruleship.

Balthasar going in with all the forged blazing would be most likely perceived by Joko as a threat and by thus I’d assume he ould respond with force, and wouldn’t mind us joining in – the question is tho – if we would want to ally with him.

Certainly I’d not :P

I am happy it’s going to be PvE expansion.

for a “PvE expansion” I must say it introduce an awfull lot of PvP elite specs – we can only imagine what influence on WvW and sPvP will these have….

Personally, I can’t wait to ally with Joko…
So I can then proceed to actually be the first to betray an alliance and hack him into pieces as soon as the immediate threat is dealt with! That would be refreshing from being the usual “well-to-do hero type” as Joko himself put it!

And here I thought that Anise being almost subservient to Livia would put paid to the theory of Anise being one of the Lyssa twins.

Sometimes, a powerful human spellcaster is just a powerful human spellcaster.

Tanner Blackfeather.6509:

Personally, I can’t wait to ally with Joko…
So I can then proceed to actually be the first to betray an alliance and hack him into pieces as soon as the immediate threat is dealt with! That would be refreshing from being the usual “well-to-do hero type” as Joko himself put it!

Arguably, we did that to Joko in Guild Wars 1, when we took the quest from the Mad King to insult Joko until he sent his army out and then cull his army. We just didn’t take the next step and try to destroy him… although who knows what would have been in the Elonian Guild Wars: Beyond that got cut.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Well Joko is not unfamiliar with concept of allying with outsider heroes to secure his ruleship.

Balthasar going in with all the forged blazing would be most likely perceived by Joko as a threat and by thus I’d assume he ould respond with force, and wouldn’t mind us joining in – the question is tho – if we would want to ally with him.

Certainly I’d not :P

I am happy it’s going to be PvE expansion.

for a “PvE expansion” I must say it introduce an awfull lot of PvP elite specs – we can only imagine what influence on WvW and sPvP will these have….

WvW
-Deadeye – it will be ridiculously OP/broken
-Holosmith – the dawn of the suicide bomber; people will charge up and run in to enemy groups to detonate (I’m calling it now)
-Spellbreaker – the aoe silence on warrior will be horribly broken
-Scourge – some people will try it and realize that standing still means you already died; successful blobs tend to walk in a circle like Nascar

PvP
-the only place Mirage might get used, it’s the same crap dps we have with scepter just new animations; can’t be used with shield (Chrono) – likely will never be used by 95% of the playerbase

Those are my current guesses.

I’m kinda hoping that there is some difference from the Nightfall plotline. Right now, it sounds like a shot-for-shot remake.

perilisk.1874:

I’m kinda hoping that there is some difference from the Nightfall plotline. Right now, it sounds like a shot-for-shot remake.

Didn’t you know that’s all the rave now. Even movies.
Jurassic World – identical plot/story to Jurassic Park 1.
Star Wars Ep. 7 – identical to Ep. 4; starting to look like 8 is just 5 redone.
I could make this list longer.

That’s all anyone does anymore, change a few items, but basically just a remake.

perilisk.1874:

I’m kinda hoping that there is some difference from the Nightfall plotline. Right now, it sounds like a shot-for-shot remake.

well the main difference for now is that we start off fighting a god that is rampaging throught tyria – in Nightfall for the most of the time we were fighting god’s servant’s in attemtp to PREVENT said god being unleashed upon tyria – quite a difference

EDIT:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Well Joko is not unfamiliar with concept of allying with outsider heroes to secure his ruleship.

Balthasar going in with all the forged blazing would be most likely perceived by Joko as a threat and by thus I’d assume he ould respond with force, and wouldn’t mind us joining in – the question is tho – if we would want to ally with him.

Certainly I’d not :P

I am happy it’s going to be PvE expansion.

for a “PvE expansion” I must say it introduce an awfull lot of PvP elite specs – we can only imagine what influence on WvW and sPvP will these have….

WvW
-Deadeye – it will be ridiculously OP/broken
-Holosmith – the dawn of the suicide bomber; people will charge up and run in to enemy groups to detonate (I’m calling it now)
-Spellbreaker – the aoe silence on warrior will be horribly broken
-Scourge – some people will try it and realize that standing still means you already died; successful blobs tend to walk in a circle like Nascar

PvP
-the only place Mirage might get used, it’s the same crap dps we have with scepter just new animations; can’t be used with shield (Chrono) – likely will never be used by 95% of the playerbase

Those are my current guesses.

well sounds mostly similar to my thoughts althought I was more thinking up in lines of – “will completely reshuffle meta” instead of “will be OP/broken”

also I’d predict quite a few of mesmers to resurface in small scale WvW – ya know small groups roaming is still a thing – and mesmer already is irritating in those [when player knows how and what to do] and with mirage stuff that is said – it will be even more irritating…

perilisk.1874:

I’m kinda hoping that there is some difference from the Nightfall plotline. Right now, it sounds like a shot-for-shot remake.

Abaddon was still in his cell. Balthazar is fully active. We had to kill Abaddon before his escape because he was stronger than 2 Gods combined.

Our goal is to prevent Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik not to prevent Balthazar’s escape from some cell.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

perilisk.1874:

I’m kinda hoping that there is some difference from the Nightfall plotline. Right now, it sounds like a shot-for-shot remake.

Abaddon was still in his cell. Balthazar is fully active. We had to kill Abaddon before his escape because he was stronger than 2 Gods combined.

Our goal is to prevent Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik not to prevent Balthazar’s escape from some cell.

There’s still a pretty strong parallel to Abaddon pre-fall with Balthazar’s plot, being denied magic, turning humans into demonic army, assaulting the Crystal Sea/Desert region, wanting to become “the one true god”…

And the goal of “prevent Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik so he doesn’t regain his full power and destroy the world” is very little different from “prevent Abaddon from breaking free so he doesn’t regain his full power and destroy the world”. The only difference is that instead of chasing down Copy of Varesh for 80% of the storyline, we’re chasing down Copy of Abaddon for 80% of the storyline.

The parallels are far too common place from all appearances. It feels like a rehash, not just of Nightfall but Abaddon in general.

Except unlike Abaddon, Balthazar no longer has redeeming qualities to him – ArenaNet made sure to remove them by turning his followers into battle crazed loonies, and creating retroactive new lore that paints his pre-fall persona as evil just like his post-fall persona.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

perilisk.1874:

I’m kinda hoping that there is some difference from the Nightfall plotline. Right now, it sounds like a shot-for-shot remake.

Abaddon was still in his cell. Balthazar is fully active. We had to kill Abaddon before his escape because he was stronger than 2 Gods combined.

Our goal is to prevent Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik not to prevent Balthazar’s escape from some cell.

Yes, and Starkiller base was a planet, not a space station.

Abaddon was perfectly capable of wreaking havoc on Tyria from within his cell (he effectively destroyed Orr, Ascalon, and the Mursaat through proxies, harmed Cantha badly, and was directly manifesting lovecraftian horrors in Tyria as well) so the distinction is not so great as you are thinking.

Either way, unless they surprise us, the plot is that 5/6 of the gods decide the 6th is too destructive, strip him of his power, and banish him. He hatches a plan to fight them and get revenge, a plan which happens to threaten Tyria. Since that’s where we keep all our stuff, we have to stop him. In Elona. With the help of Palawa Joko. And since he is Bad, we are going to definitely kill him. The whole “hey, maybe we shouldn’t kill things containing tons of magical energy” thing only applies to dragons; people are fair game, because we can’t just let them continue to exist while being Bad, can we? The main question is whether they replace him with Rytlock or with Livia. If it’s the latter, Grenth had better start getting very nervous.

Arden.7480:

Lyssa is Jennah and Anise- you heard it first here.

The last i heard was that Anise is Livias daughter. Or atleast a descendant of Livia.

Yeah….. and I just made a post about how I liked the depiction of Balthasars Followers as battlehungry but not “evil” per definition….. and then they replaced them by molten demon things ….. which slaugther unarmed civilians …… because why not?

Wasnt Balthasar a god that honored braveness and despite cowardness? I think in the new map there also was a story about this. And isnt the thing this herold of balthasar is doing in the first mission exactly the definition of cowardness? Attacking those who cannot defend themselves and avoiding those who can fight back (like the PC).

I really hope there is a deep backstory behind this and not just “Balth is evil now, because …… lulz.” But my trust in the story writing capabillities of Anet is going downhill pretty fast…..

Kasmeer is the perfect candidate to become a Mirage. She really needs the boost, and it would put the whole spec into the story in a meaningful way.

I’m going with Balthazar is usurped by Menzies and the other gods did nothing(or couldn’t), so Balthazar is working to get his power back to re-take back FoW…or we’ll find out that Abaddon, Menzies, and Dhuum have taken all the other gods out/imprisoned them and Balthazar was the only one to make it out and now he’s trying to get enough power to stop Abaddon, Menzies and Dhuum.

Gomes.5643:

Yeah….. and I just made a post about how I liked the depiction of Balthasars Followers as battlehungry but not “evil” per definition….. and then they replaced them by molten demon things ….. which slaugther unarmed civilians …… because why not?

Wasnt Balthasar a god that honored braveness and despite cowardness? I think in the new map there also was a story about this. And isnt the thing this herold of balthasar is doing in the first mission exactly the definition of cowardness? Attacking those who cannot defend themselves and avoiding those who can fight back (like the PC).

I really hope there is a deep backstory behind this and not just “Balth is evil now, because …… lulz.” But my trust in the story writing capabillities of Anet is going downhill pretty fast…..

Yes he used to be a “honorable” one.

although in flashpoint he says that he “has learned that there is no honor in war”

alot of people are jumping here to conclusion but when we stick to the hard facts tha picture we get is that balthazar has changed, and for some reason we want’s to claim vengeance on the other gods, and a hint that he feels like betrayed by them and stripped of his power.

we do not know why he wants to kill off other gods, we do not know why he feels betrayed, we do not know what kind of event have shifted so greatly his perception of war.

we also do not know if forged are anyhow related to any humans – so the argument that he makes his followers into demonic entities also is still unsupported.

yes it seems that balthy is going down the route of being second abaddon, but that alone does not make PoF a reskinned rehash of Nightfall.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And the goal of “prevent Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik so he doesn’t regain his full power and destroy the world” is very little different from “prevent Abaddon from breaking free so he doesn’t regain his full power and destroy the world”. The only difference is that instead of chasing down Copy of Varesh for 80% of the storyline, we’re chasing down Copy of Abaddon for 80% of the storyline.

That’s more-or-less the plot of every game ever.

Stop the bad guy from doing the bad thing because otherwise… catastrophy!

Perhaps ArenaNet should consider making a romantic comedy. An expansion centred around crafting Kasmeer a wedding dress and having to explore Elona to find the finest silks.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that Palawa Joko will NOT be our ally this time. When we allied with him before, he had been weakened, and he helped us reclaim a foothold in Elona and travel across the bleak Desolation part of the Crystal Desert. He’s since gotten strong, and has his army back, ready to fight any he feels would challenge his claim of the land, including some Outlander some people have been calling “Commander.” Will his troops fight the Forged? Probably, the same way that elementals will fight bandits if the two come too close to one another.

Sarie.1630:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And the goal of “prevent Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik so he doesn’t regain his full power and destroy the world” is very little different from “prevent Abaddon from breaking free so he doesn’t regain his full power and destroy the world”. The only difference is that instead of chasing down Copy of Varesh for 80% of the storyline, we’re chasing down Copy of Abaddon for 80% of the storyline.

That’s more-or-less the plot of every game ever.

Stop the bad guy from doing the bad thing because otherwise… catastrophy!

It’s more than just “stop the bad guy from doing the bad thing”. Both plots so far are “go to Elona to stop the fallen god and his once-human demonic army from obtaining power needed for him to enact his revenge against the other gods, and along the way make an alliance with lesser of two evils Palawa Joko”.

That’s a hell of a lot more specific. The only difference is the source of that power – freedom from prison versus killing a dragon.

Rognik.2579:

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that Palawa Joko will NOT be our ally this time. When we allied with him before, he had been weakened, and he helped us reclaim a foothold in Elona and travel across the bleak Desolation part of the Crystal Desert. He’s since gotten strong, and has his army back, ready to fight any he feels would challenge his claim of the land, including some Outlander some people have been calling “Commander.” Will his troops fight the Forged? Probably, the same way that elementals will fight bandits if the two come too close to one another.

While we do see some PCs fighting Awakened in the trailer, in the leaks there's a waypoint in the Bone Palace. Which gives a strong indication of an alliance, even if tenuous.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sarie.1630:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And the goal of “prevent Balthazar from killing Kralkatorrik so he doesn’t regain his full power and destroy the world” is very little different from “prevent Abaddon from breaking free so he doesn’t regain his full power and destroy the world”. The only difference is that instead of chasing down Copy of Varesh for 80% of the storyline, we’re chasing down Copy of Abaddon for 80% of the storyline.

That’s more-or-less the plot of every game ever.

Stop the bad guy from doing the bad thing because otherwise… catastrophy!

It’s more than just “stop the bad guy from doing the bad thing”. Both plots so far are “go to Elona to stop the fallen god and his once-human demonic army from obtaining power needed for him to enact his revenge against the other gods, and along the way make an alliance with lesser of two evils Palawa Joko”.

That’s a hell of a lot more specific. The only difference is the source of that power – freedom from prison versus killing a dragon.

firstly, we are nto heading to elona per se to stop him, but we are going to crystal desert to stop him – reaching elona in chase is different thing.

secondly not all GW characters “went” to elona – quite alot of them actually started their adventure in elona – and even outsiders didn’t go there to stop any god from anything – they went there to support sunspears in attempt to overthrow insane leader on one of the provinces.

thirdly – again – we have NO proof of forged EVER being human in ANY regard – actually – the way they are refered to in annoncement rather implies them being constructs similar to jades or golems – fully artificially created army to serve specific master.

also we know nothing about any possible alliance wiht palawa joko – waipoint in his territory does not mean much – in core game we have a waipoint just outside the entrance of the main flame legion bastion, with quite a few waipoints deep within what would be regarded – their territory – does that make us allied with flame legion at any point of personal story? no.

also – we are not going to crystal desert to stop balthazar from regaining power – we are there to stop him from killing elder dragon – because said death at the moment being is supposed to be devastating to tyria – no one would really go against balthazar if his method of regaining power were NOT harming us and if we knew that his “campaign” has no impact upon us – it is not balthazar gaining bower that is bothering us but the way he is intending to do so.

as opposed to aforementioned abaddon in which case we were very interested in him not breakign loose from his prison because the thing he was intending to do with that “power” was to change our word into very dark and grim place

1) As we can easily see in the partners’ streams, Elona now reaches into the Crystal Desert. What seems to be our very first stop, Amnoon, is a large Elonian city – even north of that, we see a smaller Elonian port (which may be the actual start, if we’re going through maps akin to we did in HoT, and the Amnoon is just the teaser the partners’ got).

So heading into Elona / heading into the Crystal Desert is the same thing. People tend to think Elona is a continent – it isn’t – it’s a nation and its borders are bigger than in GW1.

Also, we went into the Crystal Desert (specifically the Desolation, which is part of the Crystal Desert) to stop Abaddon, rather than Elona.

2) That’s… not very relevant and is completely splitting hairs. I said “we” as in players, not characters. Besides, no character started in the Crystal Desert which is where we really went to stop Abaddon, as mentioned above.

3) Actually, the partners’ streams – like WoodenPotatoes – has some dialogue shown where the Forged are taking prisoners to become new Forged, and one of the Forged talked about being chosen by Balthazar to become a Forged and serve him. This is a heavy implication that the early Forged are, in fact, the mercenaries group we fight in S3. So yes, it is shown. And rather early on it seems.

4) Look at all of Season 3 and HoT’s maps, and Season 2’s maps. Do you see a single waypoint in the very heart of enemy territory? No.

In the core game, we have waypoints everywhere. Even then, the only waypoints in the very heart of enemy territory is for dungeon entrances.

5) Stop him from killing an Elder Dragon IS stopping him from gaining power. If you played Episodes 5 or 6, you would know that Balthazar’s goal is to kill the Elder Dragons to take their power. Stopping him from gaining their power = stopping him from killing them.

As to your claim about “no one would really go against balthazar if his method of regaining power were NOT harming us” – that’s untrue, given that Balthazar’s actions are highly hostile (the trailer for PoF’s second line is talking about a flood of Elonian refugees, meaning that Balthazar himself is dispersing Elonians from their homes left and right). Our reason for fighting him would be different, but it’s clear that they’ve made Balthazar a pure destruction kind of god of war now, rather than what he was beforehand. He’s already been shown as devastating non-dragon locations (like the pyramid he crumbled into floating debris, which we can see, clearly away from any dragonbrand/branded, in one of the trailers).

On point #4: It’s possible that we’ll end up defeating Joko and claiming the Bone Palace as a forward base. Or it’ll be like some of the waypoints in the core game that are only uncontested when held as part of an event chain.

On point #5: The PC in episode 5 makes it very clear that even if killing the dragons was safe, “a murderous, overpowered god of war is too dangerous to keep around.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

*too much characters in a post is a thing *

1. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Amnoon_Oasis
if memory serves in-game references suggest the settlement origin to elonian pilgrims leaving north with turai ossa in his pilgrimage to ascention before desolation become.. well desolation. so not crystal desert should not be considered “elona” terrain despite elonian activity in the area. and the streams suggest actually that the naming and placement is pretty much the same as gw1 with only main difference being settlement growing and whole area becoming more “alive” and less inhabited by spirits of those who failed to reach ascention there

Indeed Elona is not a continent, but it is actually name bound to a geographical place – to draw an analogy it’s like europe and asia – when you look at it it’s basically same “continent” but no one really argue where the europe is and where asia is.

2. actually we didn’t even go to crystal desert to for out for abaddon – for this purpose we went into realm of torment – earlier we have just went into desolation chasing the abaddons prophet in attempt to stop her from opening the hellgate [and actually fail at doing so] and while you could argue if desolation belongs to crystal desert or not it is already a thing outside of elonian borders at the nightfall time – althought if was the middle of jokos little empire which is current “country” spanning across all of elona – and even further than that. Although it gets little bit weird here with jokos redirecting river of elon into desolation……

3. ok I have indeed noticed after writing previous post on the peachy run the dialogues of the forged herald, altho even in this there is a correction to be made – they are not takign prisoners – they are killing people and balthasar “reforges” their souls into forged so basically he’s putting souls into pieces of magical armor while strappign them of any sort of free will…. sounds nearly like mursaat soul batteries….

4. yes there is exacly one S3 map where you get waipoints in areas considered middle of enemy terrain – in bloodstone fen – with two waipoints being in the middle of white mantle holdings in the area with one being putactually in so interestign place that quite often you can expect to be attacked by white mantle and blood stone elementals as soon as you waipoint into it.

5. yes stopping him from killing a dragon is stopping him from getting power….. from thsi specifc source – you have said nothing goign against what I’ve said apart from trying to say that the effect and cause are the same – yes tehre are elonian refugees runnign away from balthazars little invasion, and it actually writes in perfectly into what I have said – again it is not a “goal” to stop balthazar from regaining his power that tickles us off our goal is to prevent him from doing harm to our world in the way of doing so – and again – if he was trying to obtain this power in a way not endangering tyria no one would really care much.

actually even if the harmless-to-tyria-method involved killing of alot of elonians core tyria would probably not even bat an eye – and we have a precedence in lore already established! no one cared to rush into elona when refugees from it were swarming to core tyria running away from palawa’s invasion! apart from kryta “somewhat” acomodating those new refugees [it wasn’t a warm welcome by the way] no one actually cared about what was going on there.

so by this I am quite convinced that if balthazar went there just for a random slaughter no one would care – again. what it triggering all the heroes of tyria is the fact that he wants to kill a dragon and we are no longer fans of killing dragons.

[again little tl:dr for the point 5: stopping balthazar is stopping him from obtaining power from said dragon, but stopping him from obtaining power is not the same as stopping him from gaining power]

As to your claim about “no one would really go against balthazar if his method of regaining power were NOT harming us” – that’s untrue, given that Balthazar’s actions are highly hostile (the trailer for PoF’s second line is talking about a flood of Elonian refugees, meaning that Balthazar himself is dispersing Elonians from their homes left and right). Our reason for fighting him would be different, but it’s clear that they’ve made Balthazar a pure destruction kind of god of war now, rather than what he was beforehand. He’s already been shown as devastating non-dragon locations (like the pyramid he crumbled into floating debris, which we can see, clearly away from any dragonbrand/branded, in one of the trailers).

No one in core tyria went hellbent to stop palawa joko when he was conquering elona and the kryta was at the time quite heavilly flooded with elonian refugees at a time. No, central tyria would not come to elonian help if balthazar would not be endangering it directly – they didn’t do it earlier they would not do it now.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

1. -snip-

Amnoon Oasis never actually has an origin stated. While Turai’s ghost is there, this is because he was waiting for the Chosen. At the time, Elona did not reach that far -
there was Elonia though, a colony that Turai had established but fell during his lifetime.

Nowadays, however, we clearly see Elonian structures thriving in the Crystal Desert under Palawa Joko’s rule. Joko rules Elona. Ergo, as far north as the Crystal Oasis map is considered part of Elona.

Elona is not akin to Europe and Asia. It is a nation. And like all nations, the boundaries can and will shift. In the past 250 years since Nightfall, the nation of Elona’s borders shifted north due to Joko’s mastery of desert lifestyle. Vabbi, Kourna, and Istan were never nations but provinces of the nation Elona, which during GW1 had no unified government anymore.

2. We actually did go to the Crystal Desert to stop Abaddon. The Desolation is where we went, before we were forced into the Realm of Torment. While the final confrontation was in the Realm of Torment, we chased Varesh into the Desolation first, and the Desolation is part of the Crystal Desert. While the hope was to stop Abaddon by stopping Varesh, that plan failed as we were to slow. But initially we did “go to” Elona and the Crystal Desert to stop Abaddon’s plot, just as now we are going to Elona and the Crystal Desert to stop Balthazar’s plot.

Earlier you said that we were not “going to Elona to stop Balthazar” but going to the Crystal Desert and “chasing him to Elona” – now you’re arguing we did not go to Elona/Crystal Desert to stop Abaddon, but the Realm of Torment – however by your earlier argument, we “chased Abaddon to the Realm of Torment” rather than went there to stop him.

You cannot have it both ways.

3. And Margonites were not always living flesh turned to ether, as we see with Varesh having killed her and she returns through the Realm of Torment portals as a Margonite. Her soul is what returned as a Margonite. Balthazar is still turning humans into his demonic army, just as Abaddon did, even if the very specific methodology differs.

4. Bloodstone Fen is no longer really “enemy territory” when we arrive there, and none of the waypoints are actually in the heart of White Mantle fortresses (because there are none anymore).

5. “you have said nothing goign against what I’ve said apart from trying to say that the effect and cause are the same” and the effect for this plot is the same exact effect for the other plot. Just swap “break out of prison” with “kill the Elder Dragons”, and suddenly everything else is just a reskin of the same.

The only difference is that we’re going south, rather than north, and – as best we can tell – we’re not going into the Mists for the final confrontation (though given the first scene in the trailer which is very reminiscent of a flameless Fissure of Woe, and Rytlock’s forboding message, I would not rule it out).

Our goal is not “stop Balthazar from killing Elder Dragons”. Our goal is “stop Balthazar from destroying the world” which is… the same as Abaddon. Go to Elona and the Crystal Desert to stop Abaddon from destroying the world, which he will do if he breaks out of his prison and regain his power. Go to Elona and the Crystal Desert to stop Balthazar from destroying the world, which he will do if he kills an Elder Dragon to take its magic and regain his power.

How is that not the same plot?

As for “no one would care if Balthazar went there just for a random slaughter” – again, false, as draxynnic pointed out in his post, in Episode 5 the PC makes a point to denote that even if his actions weren’t endangering the world, leaving Balthazar perform random slaughter is a kitten “not going to allow it.”

Lord Trejgon.2809:

No one in core tyria went hellbent to stop palawa joko when he was conquering elona and the kryta was at the time quite heavilly flooded with elonian refugees at a time. No, central tyria would not come to elonian help if balthazar would not be endangering it directly – they didn’t do it earlier they would not do it now.

This is largely because of distance and obstacles between Kryta and Elona. Joko began his campaign to conquer Elona 60 years after Nightfall, by which time only Primordus had woken up, but his campaign ended only 50 years ago (or so that’s when the last of the refugees passed through), by which time Zhaitan was awake and being a much bigger threat to Kryta. And in the 40 years inbetween the two events (Joko beginning his crusade and Zhaitan rising), there was still the Desolation and Crystal Desert, as well as the Shiverpeaks/Sea of Sorrows, inbetween Kryta and Elona. Even then, Kryta was under siege in the Centaur War already. And the other races simply would not care about distant human matters.

This is not the case now, with Zhaitan dead and airships to make passage over the Crystal Desert and the Desolation with much more ease. And with Elonians now asking Kryta for help (no indication there was ever a request for aide before).

And unlike Joko, Balthazar has always been of interest to Krytans.

lost my previous wall of text to server outage issues, and I’m too tired to rewrite it all so I’ll settle on this part only:

Elona is not akin to Europe and Asia. It is a nation. And like all nations, the boundaries can and will shift.

the very first verse spoken in the nighfall campaign:
“Elona, Land of the Golden Sun.”
Land not nation, not country, not state.
land. elona is a specific part of a land.

Ah, so England, Scotland and Ireland are not and never were nations then, because they’re ‘lands’? Deutschland either?

‘Land’ is not a strictly defined term, at least not in the sense you’re trying to claim. When talking about a nation, the ‘land’ of that nation expands and contracts as the nation does.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

No one in core tyria went hellbent to stop palawa joko when he was conquering elona and the kryta was at the time quite heavilly flooded with elonian refugees at a time. No, central tyria would not come to elonian help if balthazar would not be endangering it directly – they didn’t do it earlier they would not do it now.

Actually, while we don’t hear about it in-game, the order of Whispers is up to its neck in the resistance movement against Palawa Joko in Elona.

The big reason is that other than the Order of Whispers, only Kryta had any reason at all to care about what happened to Elona, and the Krytans were in no position to help even if the way wasn’t blocked by Zhaitan.

Now we’ve got a reason to go there, and with the White Mantle defeated and the truce with the charr, Kryta might actually have the spare capacity to support a liberation movement elsewhere.

Furthering Drax’s point, Elonian refugees have been added in this update, at the very least to the Order of Whispers Headquarters in LA. A new influx of Elonians to Kryta may further push for such actions.

draxynnic.3719:

Ah, so England, Scotland and Ireland are not and never were nations then, because they’re ‘lands’? Deutschland either?

technically speaking there is no nation [and never were] called “England, scotland, Ireland, deutschland”

actually when you look at the genesis of those names those names originated as "land of <nation> in meaning

there is english nation, scot’s nation Irish nation, german nation – see the difference?

as for lost earlier wall of text – since I am awoken and rested now instead of rebuilding that wall of text I’ll try to sum up and put into better words all my stance on the subject as it is on the moment being.

firstly and foremostly – yes as it is so far balthazar does feel like going into abaddon 2.0, and no I am not 200% happy about – I have personally hoping that there was something bigger we didn’t know about going in.

as for increase of elonian population in crystal desert – let us not forget that elon river that was goign throught whole continental elona has been redirected into crystal desert to allow palawa easy conquest – so after it it would be understandable for vabbi and kournan populations to mostly move north.

after additional thinking I have also come up with better rl analogy for the term elona – india – in real world both used to refer to the nation/state and to the specific chunk of the landmass – which is in these specific case interestign because for a change it’s same world used unlike for grand most of other pairings like that.

also as for where we are goign to go and what for in expansion – we are clearly goign after balthazar to stop him from killing elder dragon – only a 5th part of potential playerbase [humans] would really much care about his other actions here – as long as it is not global in effects, and even then that 5th – humans – can be splitted due to some of humans in kryta still being actuall followers of balthazar believing that he is completely right in whatever he is doing.

with a new map updated into a client thought it is quite easy to guess why we will reach actuall elona in this chase – it’s because dragon’s lair is just outside gardens of sebolkhin – since balthy is going after dragon it’s obvious he will not stop prematurely.

there may be some paralels and similarities to nightfall campaing but all of them are twisting the scale of the conflict – as I said – in nightfall we are chasing a servant andsince we failed to stop servant in time then and only then, we goes after the master – this is not the case in this scenario frames cause as far as we know so far balthazar is the master – and we are going on after him from ever before the expansion storyline properly started.

margonites vs forged – while it is unknown how the “conversion” of original batch of margonites – predating abaddons original fall – have happened – but kournan troops under varesh command and varesh herself were converted into demonic entity as they lived on – process was not speedy-snapy but also did not involved anyone dying and coming back as a demon – the conversion effects were seen in the cinematics showing varesh, and only because these one was completed – varesh and her troops could cross the desolations – they were no longer human at that point they were demons. – and even then you had few converted kournans scattered aroudn desolation being completely scared of a change that have hapened in their bodies, refusing it and deserting from the army hoping it can still be reverted.

from all I know on the forged so far, they are contructs powered with twisted souls claimed by balthazar – in many cases by outright killing the people to gather their souls for this army building.

actually when you’d think about it there is more paralels between risen/awakened army and the forged than between margonites and forged. branded on the other hand shares interesting amounts of paralels to margonites.

so claiming at this point that Path of Fire is reskinned Nightfall is premature and unfair for the writers – for all that is known so far these are two different plot-schemes with completely different pacings.

it may yet turn into reskinned nightfall at this point if AN decided to do everything possible to do just so and if that will be a case I’ll be utterly dissapointed – but at this point I’m farily optimistic because so far the stretch just seems to big to me.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

draxynnic.3719:

Ah, so England, Scotland and Ireland are not and never were nations then, because they’re ‘lands’? Deutschland either?

technically speaking there is no nation [and never were] called “England, scotland, Ireland, deutschland”

Now, that’s splitting a really fine hair.

The formal name of England, from 1066 to the personal union in 1707, was the Kingdom of England. Scotland was “Kinrick o Scotland” in one of the Scottish languages. The formal name of Germany is “Bundesrepublik Deutschland”

Yes, the term England comes from “land of the Engs”, but it is still the name of a nation. In fact, saying ‘land of the Engs’ is essentially saying ‘the land occupied by the nation of the Engs’. Similar observations apply to all of the other ‘lands’.

The fact that Elona is poetically described as “The Land of the Golden Sun” does not limit Elona to being a specific geographical region any more than someone poetically describing Russia as the Land of Spring Mud would mean that Russia now refers to a fixed geographical region rather than the area within the borders of the Russian Federation – even if not all of the regions within the Russian Federation are subject to the rasputitsa (most technically won’t be these days with paved roads, but the point still stands).

What if Balthazar is not Balthazar but rather Dhuum? Think about it. Dhuum was banished by the combined power of Balthazar, Dwayna, Lyssa, Melandru, Grenth, and Abaddon. Abaddon is gone, and 250+ years ago Dhuum broke the seal. What if Dhuum took Balthazar out with help from Menzies and assumed Balthazar’s form? Or even better…what if he swapped bodies with Balthazar resulting in Balthazar being locked away in the Halls?

Dhuum was only overthrown by Grenth and the seven Reapers. The other gods had nothing to do with his downfall.

Besides that, the idea of it being “someone pretending to be a god pretending to be a mursaat” has been… whatever the opposite of implied would be, since even Episode 5. Kasmeer said there’s no more illusion, the mirror got broken, NPCs in Draconis laughed at the notion calling it dumb (and those were humans wanting it to not be Balthazar), etc.

Unless they’re doing the same they did with the origins of sylvari – that is, throwing so many “nope not it” lore and dialogue just to make a grand reveal that ends up contradictory to established lore, we’re looking at Balthazar.

As to the specific notion of it being Dhuum – Dhuum has always been anti-Grenth, rather than anti-Balthazar. So if Dhuum were masquerading as a god, he’d likely be doing so as Grenth rather than Balthzar.

I agree that it rather is balthazar – anyone pretending to be balthazar at this point would be overtwisting it.

that being said he may still not be the “true villain” – his cause [real one] after all can be right with him just goign full-end-justifies-the-means, he could be tricked into all of it and so on, and so on.

but the guy creating forged and running rampant throught the crystal desert [and nothern elona on later date probably too] is Balthy himself, no doubts on that at this point

Arden.7480:

I think Rytlock is going to be one of the major characters. I can’t wait to see what he saw in the Mists!!

I am hopeful this will finally be revealed, but you never know with Anet. They like to disappoint.

Arden.7480:

Braham- it seems he is going to come back to our team. I hope…

What makes you believe that? He seems to hate our guts, so why would he join us? He might participate in PoF, but certainly not as our close ally.

Arden.7480:

Lyssa is Jennah and Anise- you heard it first here.

No, we didn’t. And they might as well be renowned characters from the Shining Blade in GW1.

I am most interested to learn what happened to the other gods, especially Kormir. And we heard stuff about fallen Abaddon that makes me extremely curious about what exactly has been going on in that crazy pantheon ever since they left the face of Tyria.

Plot twist: ‘Balthazar’ is actually Menzies.

I have a pretty theory about, but first understand that English isn’t my natural language and maybe can missunderstand some phrases i search on the wiki. This is a “ligh version” of my theory.

First i begin with LW 3rd Season:
I think Balthy was a good god at begining (like gw1 old times): Lying the White Mantle to frustrate their plans; Trying to help us with Aurene;And trying to stop dragons without break the equilibrium of the world, like we see with the taimi's simulation cinematic, we are wrong.
But then we betrayed him breaking Taimi's Machine while he was fighting with Primordus (he's weak now and needs a boost) and now we have a "Darth Balthazar"
And from PoF Plot:
From a perspective of a GW1 player, Abaddon was a mistery without knowed past, only one certain thing: He stole power from a ancient god and he become corrupted.
I think of Abaddon was the water dragon and he stole the old god power, changed his name and become a corrupted god (explaining his past and why gods want to stop it).
For me, it makes sense that the history is repeating and Primordus "stole" the body/powers of Balthazar (During our mistake at the end of LW3) and he wants to kill other dragons and gods to become the only one. That's, imho, the relation between "actual Balthazar" and "old Abaddon"

Luindu.2418:

I have a pretty theory about, but first understand that English isn’t my natural language and maybe can missunderstand some phrases i search on the wiki. This is a “ligh version” of my theory.

First i begin with LW 3rd Season:
I think Balthy was a good god at begining (like gw1 old times): Lying the White Mantle to frustrate their plans; Trying to help us with Aurene;And trying to stop dragons without break the equilibrium of the world, like we see with the taimi's simulation cinematic, we are wrong.
But then we betrayed him breaking Taimi's Machine while he was fighting with Primordus (he's weak now and needs a boost) and now we have a "Darth Balthazar"

there is one tiny problem with this one
firstly taimi's simulation - while everyone jumped to conclusion that it means killing dragons is now bad, I still think that if it shows anything it shows that messing with eternal alchemy to nullify two dragons is an actuall issue - not just killing them off. Secondly - Balthazar did not try to kill elder dragons "without breaking the equilibrium of the world" - actually already at this point he says - in response that his actions are endangering whole world - that he simply and bluntly does not care about tyria after what he does. Ironically there are some things he said while pretending to be lazarus that could be actually 200% honest statements from balthazar himself - he said he wants to pursue "higher goals" - while ofc he lied what these goals were - the point of his at this moment seems to be quite clearly "above" the whole tyria - so to speak

Lord Trejgon.2809:

…

I saw more hints on the beta weekend like on the first story step, the balthazar champion who said he's doing this against his will

Luindu.2418:

I have a pretty theory about, but first understand that English isn’t my natural language and maybe can missunderstand some phrases i search on the wiki. This is a “ligh version” of my theory.

First i begin with LW 3rd Season:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I think Balthy was a good god at begining (like gw1 old times): Lying the White Mantle to frustrate their plans; Trying to help us with Aurene;And trying to stop dragons without break the equilibrium of the world, like we see with the taimi’s simulation cinematic, we are wrong.

But then we betrayed him breaking Taimi’s Machine while he was fighting with Primordus (he’s weak now and needs a boost) and now we have a “Darth Balthazar”

Except that the betrayal wasn’t in destroying Taimi’s machine. Balthazar had already told us he didn’t care if using the machine destroyed the world. The betrayal on our part came when we broke the illusions (rather than trying to talk it out before activating the trap).

If Balthazar knew Taimi’s simulation was wrong, he would have told us this – even if they were right, if he considered lying about that he would have said it was wrong giving us enough chance to doubt. However at that point, as the PC says in that episode, Balthazar is too great a threat just because of his actions regardless of what his goals were.

Luindu.2418:

And from PoF Plot:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

From a perspective of a GW1 player, Abaddon was a mistery without knowed past, only one certain thing: He stole power from a ancient god and he become corrupted.

I think of Abaddon was the water dragon and he stole the old god power, changed his name and become a corrupted god (explaining his past and why gods want to stop it).

For me, it makes sense that the history is repeating and Primordus “stole” the body/powers of Balthazar (During our mistake at the end of LW3) and he wants to kill other dragons and gods to become the only one. That’s, imho, the relation between “actual Balthazar” and “old Abaddon”

Many issues here.

Firstly, Abaddon’s past is not unknown. It’s just untold to players – just like the past of Dwayna, Melandru, Lyssa (which is actually canonically unknown), Balthazar, and Dhuum. Furthermore, Abaddon came to the world as a god and the “water dragon” (an inaccurate nickname for the deep sea dragon technically) is still alive an active while Abaddon is dead, so that cannot be the case – we outright know by now (technically always did) that the six Elder Dragons are wholly different from the Six Gods, even if there is a bit of overlap between the two. About “why gods want to stop [Abaddon]” it’s simply because he initiated war with them – after the gift of magic was revoked, Margonites defaced statues of the other five gods in Abaddon’s name (but not by his orders); the Forgotten took revenge on this by nearly wiping the Margonites out (a bit extreme but it’s what happened), leading to the surviving Margonites to pray to Abaddon for salvation; Abaddon gave it, and decided then and there to rule Tyria as its only god. That’s why the other gods wanted to stop him – because he initiated conflict, but couldn’t kill him because they needed a proper replacement so they imprisoned him.

As for Primordus “stealing” Balthazar’s body, his personality has not changed at all from Taimi’s Pet Project instance, long before Balthazar and Primordus met, and Jormag suffered the same fate as Primordus so it’s unlikely one dragon managed to possess Balthazar while the other went to sleep, while we’re told both went to sleep.

First of all you don’t have to mark your posts as spoilers. The title says there are [PoF spoilers] including LS3 spoilers.

@Ashantara I am really upset Braham still does not want to lay down his bow and get normal.

Braham is so stupid, but his actions are only caused because of his own situation and the tough situation of his Race.

He is not to blame, he is just a toy of the horrible fate as everyone in Tyria is.

@Arden
Ok a bad costume, to try to not spoil to anyone (as example one guildmate who doesn’t play the original GW)

@Konig
About the betrayal, I think he was talking about the secret of the taimi’s machine and when he knows try to stop us because thinks we are “enemies of the world” as same as we think he was our enemy. As a point, we don’t know that the machine could cause that caos before Balthy stole it.

About Gods past, on the wiki (and the games) you can see pieces of information like: Grenth was a half-god son of Dwayna, Kormyr was a human,…
But the interesting part was about Abaddon: “According to the Margonite Apostate, Abaddon gained his power from an older, deposed god.” That seems like he’s something that can stole gods powers. As games show us, if i’m not forgotting anything, only gods or dragons can fight for domain spheres of power:

• Kormyr absorbs abaddon with 5 Gods help (….using the gift the gods gave her in the Temple of the Six Gods, runs into and absorbs it).
• Balthazar as we saw in Ep6
• Menzies, Half-brother of balthazar = Half-god, try it to stole it too.
• Grenth as a Half-god with help of human servants

What can be Abaddon? if only a Dragon or a God/Half-god can stole other Gods power. I’m more declined to think about he’s a Dragon, because by coincidence Abaddon was the god of water and secrets. And also associated with Depths, Knowledge and Magic.
Water go for Lyssa but where are the depth? and the secrets?
The thruth of kormyr was the opposite of secrets, and the opposite of a Gods was? Dragons. And another coincidence is the only Dragon we don’t know his name was the Deep/Water Dragon (the 2 domains associated with Abaddon) Only the “S” ¿What if the “S” was a reference of the Abbadon’s real name? “Secrets inside secrets” ;D

About Abaddon’s Death, if Gods don’t want to kill the Dragons by the balance of the world, maybeeee the Gift for Kormyr don’t kill the God of Secrets and only give it back to his Dragon form.

About Balthazar’s personality, in Gw1 and if you search for the tales of the gods in Siren’s landing you can see Balthazar as a God that shows respet for the honor in the battle. I think “scorched earth” tactic from PoF sounds more like a Primordus tactic.

Another thing, if i’m correct Abaddon (Gw1) and Balthazar (Gw2 PoF) are the same story that would explain why this two try to fight with the other Gods…

Luindu.2418:

About the betrayal, I think he was talking about the secret of the taimi’s machine and when he knows try to stop us because thinks we are “enemies of the world” as same as we think he was our enemy. As a point, we don’t know that the machine could cause that caos before Balthy stole it.

You said “But then we betrayed him breaking Taimi’s Machine while he was fighting with Primordus”

That’s in the volcano, not Rata Novus. I was saying that any betrayal on the PC’s part was in Rata Novus – with the mirrors – just before he stole the machine. This is not when we destroyed it while he was fighting Primordus.

Luindu.2418:

But the interesting part was about Abaddon: “According to the Margonite Apostate, Abaddon gained his power from an older, deposed god.” That seems like he’s something that can stole gods powers.

You’re misinterpreting it. Here is the original dialogue.

All this says is that, just as Grenth and Kormir were once not-gods who usurped a god, Abaddon was also a mortal that usurped a god (believed to be Arachnia by name, but unconfirmed). That there has been a line of successors in godhood – at least three gods of knowledge have existed, one replacing the other.

It is also implied that Lyssa and Balthazar had similarly usurped a former god to become god themselves, though this is speculative still.

Luindu.2418:

As games show us, if i’m not forgotting anything, only gods or dragons can fight for domain spheres of power:

• Kormyr absorbs abaddon with 5 Gods help (….using the gift the gods gave her in the Temple of the Six Gods, runs into and absorbs it).
• Balthazar as we saw in Ep6
• Menzies, Half-brother of balthazar = Half-god, try it to stole it too.
• Grenth as a Half-god with help of human servants

Technically as shown by Kormir, mortals can obtain a god’s domain/sphere of power. Also, there is no confirmation of Menzies being a half-god. He is Balthazar’s half-brother for sure, but were any of the three parents even divine? Unknown.

Luindu.2418:

What can be Abaddon? if only a Dragon or a God/Half-god can stole other Gods power. I’m more declined to think about he’s a Dragon, because by coincidence Abaddon was the god of water and secrets. And also associated with Depths, Knowledge and Magic.
Water go for Lyssa but where are the depth? and the secrets?
The thruth of kormyr was the opposite of secrets, and the opposite of a Gods was? Dragons. And another coincidence is the only Dragon we don’t know his name was the Deep/Water Dragon (the 2 domains associated with Abaddon) Only the “S” ¿What if the “S” was a reference of the Abbadon’s real name? “Secrets inside secrets” ;D

Again, we know mortals can take on a god’s power. Kormir proves this. We see her taking in Abaddon’s power in GW1 – you can look it up on youtube without a doubt. Abaddon is likely the same, a mortal who usurped a god.

About “secrets and truth being opposites thus not the same” – Abaddon was the god of knowledge, technically, same as Kormir. Before his fall he was referred to as god of wisdom, and after his fall referred to as god of secrets – perhaps because he was a secret himself. Kormir herself, in GW1, is referred to as goddess of truth, indeed, but also of knowledge and secrets. To quote one case: All hail Kormir, Goddess of Secrets!

Abaddon’s take on water was the depths of the sea, whereas Lyssa’s take on water is its reflective surface. It’s just two interpretations of the same thing – like wisdom, secrets, and truth being three interpretations of the same thing (knowledge).

Also, the Deep Sea Dragon is NOT necessarily “the Water Dragon.” There may not be a water dragon. We do not know the Deep Sea Dragon’s domains. It might be water, but is just as easily might not be. We call it the Deep Sea Dragon for the same reason Kralkatorrik is the “desert dragon” or Zhaitan the “Orrian dragon”. Because the deep sea is where it is located, not what it domains over. We do not know either of the DSD’s domains. So for all we know, he could be the Elder Dragon of Love and Hope, or of Flesh and Earth or something.

Luindu.2418:

About Balthazar’s personality, in Gw1 and if you search for the tales of the gods in Siren’s landing you can see Balthazar as a God that shows respet for the honor in the battle. I think “scorched earth” tactic from PoF sounds more like a Primordus tactic.

To quote back to Episode 5, when Primordus was stunned:

Balthazar: I’ve learned there is no honor in war. But if you crave the glory of the fray…

Basically, it’s been explained already that Balthazar has 1) been weakened, and 2) lost belief in his own ideals.

This is why his personality has changed. Something happened to him in the past 250 years – before he showed up in GW2 – which changed things. His personality has not changed between Episode 1 and Episode 5 of Season 3.

Luindu.2418:

Another thing, if i’m correct Abaddon (Gw1) and Balthazar (Gw2 PoF) are the same story that would explain why this two try to fight with the other Gods…

They are the same story… but not in the way you’re taking it. Both are fallen gods who use an army of humans (Kournan military / Mercenaries) and demonic former-humans (Margonites / Forged) to lay assault on Elona and the Crystal Desert in hopes of regaining power (Break out of prison / Absorb Kralkatorrik’s power) so that they can obtain their goals of revenge and become the “one true god”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s in the volcano, not Rata Novus. …

My bad explanation, i talk about “2 betrayals”:
First, one that balthazar talks, hidden information about the taimi’s machine and our plans to faces Primordus vs Jormag (the wrong way, as shows taimi’s simluation). And the second and “real” was we break the machine and the balthazar boost he needs to stop the dragons (and as I theorice making Primordus stole his powers).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Abaddon was also a mortal that usurped a god (believed to be Arachnia by name, but unconfirmed).

The references of Arachnia talks about a “spider god” or “gods of insectoids beings”
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia
And if we don’t know Gods past why your’re right saying he’s human and i’m wrong saying Abaddon was a dragon? (until we know more, this was a Schrodinger’s Past ^^, but i choose dragon past because imho looks like more lore friendly).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically as shown by Kormir, mortals can obtain a god’s domain/sphere of power.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon%27s_Gate#End_cinematic

I make emphasis in 3 sentences:

• <Party leader>: “It’s running wild! It will destroy everything!” -> killing gods or dragons destroy the world just like Taimi’s simulation shows.
• Kormir: “Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!” and as i said before “Kormir, using the gift the gods gave her in the Temple of the Six Gods, runs into and absorbs it” from https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kormir -> I think this is clear about the use of the gift of the gods allow kormir to absorb it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Abaddon was the god of knowledge, technically, same as Kormir.

Technically that’s means that Kormyr must be the God of Water too, but water goes for Lyssa, that’s why I said that gift of gods was such important and makes possible the Kormir’s rise and the secret plans of the 5 Gods to preserve the world balance.
“she was only openly tied to water after the death of Abaddon in 1075 AE” from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa

(too long 1/2)

The second part (because qoute is broken).

@Konig: Abaddon’s take on water was the depths of the sea, whereas Lyssa’s take on water is its reflective surface. It’s just two interpretations of the same thing – like wisdom, secrets, and truth being three interpretations of the same thing (knowledge).

A: Just like Zhaitan’s and Grenth “death” or as Mordremoth and Melandru “Nature”. That’s why I think this about Abaddon becouse his “fall” (likes Balthazar’s Fall) he represent the opposite of the “good domains” the gods have, maybe because Abaddon as God of Wisdom was the old god that he depososed (that make sense as Abaddon’s Dragon real name begins with “S” as the DSD)

@Konig: Also, the Deep Sea Dragon is NOT necessarily “the Water Dragon.” There may not be a water dragon. We do not know the Deep Sea Dragon’s domains. It might be water, but is just as easily might not be. We call it the Deep Sea Dragon for the same reason Kralkatorrik is the “desert dragon” or Zhaitan the “Orrian dragon”. Because the deep sea is where it is located, not what it domains over. We do not know either of the DSD’s domains. So for all we know, he could be the Elder Dragon of Love and Hope, or of Flesh and Earth or something.

A:

• Zhaitan in a “undead island” or a “dead island who rise again”
• Mordremoth in a Jungle
• Primordus in a Volcano
• Jormag presumably on the Shiverpeak mountains like norns said
• Kralkatorrik “Crystal” in a desert… "types of glass are “silicate glasses” based on the chemical compound silica (silicon dioxide, or quartz), the primary constituent of sand". Crystal Dragon sounds better than Glass Dragon.
  By coincidence DSD wakes on the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unending_Ocean a ocean who was ruled by Margonites…until they “corrupt” (loose his humanity)

@konigBalthazar: I’ve learned there is no honor in war. But if you crave the glory of the fray…

A: I think this was a “mind’s duel” between Balthazar and Primordus, like we play with Mordremoth. I think we’re talking with Primordus… (but well, that’s my theory)

Luindu.2418:

My bad explanation, i talk about “2 betrayals”:
First, one that balthazar talks, hidden information about the taimi’s machine and our plans to faces Primordus vs Jormag (the wrong way, as shows taimi’s simluation). And the second and “real” was we break the machine and the balthazar boost he needs to stop the dragons (and as I theorice making Primordus stole his powers).

Breaking the machine was not a betrayal. Balthazar didn’t “need power to stop the dragons”. He wanted to stop the dragons so he could gain power. There is a massive difference.

Luindu.2418:

The references of Arachnia talks about a “spider god” or “gods of insectoids beings”
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia
And if we don’t know Gods past why your’re right saying he’s human and i’m wrong saying Abaddon was a dragon? (until we know more, this was a Schrodinger’s Past ^^, but i choose dragon past because imho looks like more lore friendly).

Because all depictions of Abaddon pre-fall was of a human. Malchor laid eyes on what all six gods of the time looked like, which includes Abaddon.

We don’t know all of the gods’ pasts, but we do know enough to know that they’re humanoids and that they and/or their power are of non-Tyrian origin. We know enough to know that the Six Gods and the Six Elder Dragons are not the same thing. In either domain or actual body.

Luindu.2418:

I make emphasis in 3 sentences:

• <Party leader>: “It’s running wild! It will destroy everything!” -> killing gods or dragons destroy the world just like Taimi’s simulation shows.
• Kormir: “Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!” and as i said before “Kormir, using the gift the gods gave her in the Temple of the Six Gods, runs into and absorbs it” from https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kormir -> I think this is clear about the use of the gift of the gods allow kormir to absorb it.

• Technically they are different. The dragons’ death leading to the world’s death is due to too much magic building up without a container thus going wild, resulting in places like Thaumanova, Bloodstone Fen, etc. The gods’ death leads to their own power blowing up, devastating not only the dimension it is in, but neighboring dimensions as well (it’s said that Abaddon’s magic blowing up could have destroyed Tyria, despite his death being in the heart of the Realm of Torment). There’s a fairly big difference – the death of one dragon is barely going to effect the world, as we saw ourselves. If they were the same, then Tyria would have been destroyed at the end of the personal story.
• The gift is a bit dubious to know its exact nature. While it is possible that your interpretation is right, another just as easily acceptable interpretation is that the blessing was nothing more than words that acknowledge the deed – like a king’s blessing to a knight to perform a duty. Alternatively, it is believed the blessing is what kept Abaddon from instantly killing us or us going blind looking at Abaddon despite him being a full-fledged god still. Ultimately, it’s hard to say. But either way: Kormir was a mortal, blessing or not. That blessing did not make her more than mortal.

Luindu.2418:

Technically that’s means that Kormyr must be the God of Water too, but water goes for Lyssa, that’s why I said that gift of gods was such important and makes possible the Kormir’s rise and the secret plans of the 5 Gods to preserve the world balance.
“she was only openly tied to water after the death of Abaddon in 1075 AE” from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa

And that’s the thing about the gods’ domains. Only the first one actually sticks from transition to transition. Water goes from Abaddon, gets covered by Grenth’s ice while Big A is imprisoned, and goes to Lyssa afterward.

And Dhuum was never once associated with ice. That was 100% Grenth’s addition to the pantheon.

Further, the norn refer to the gods as “Spirits of Action” and call them by their first domain – War, Death, Life, Nature, Knowledge (sadly we do not know how they call Lyssa) – because “names are a human thing”.

Luindu.2418:

Just like Zhaitan’s and Grenth “death” or as Mordremoth and Melandru “Nature”. That’s why I think this about Abaddon becouse his “fall” (likes Balthazar’s Fall) he represent the opposite of the “good domains” the gods have, maybe because Abaddon as God of Wisdom was the old god that he depososed (that make sense as Abaddon’s Dragon real name begins with “S” as the DSD)

No, Abaddon the god of wisdom and Abaddon the god of secrets are 100% the same being.

And the attempt to relate the gods and dragons’ domains 1:1 have been attempted and horribly failed. Sure you can work death, fire, and nature… Except:

• Mordremoth is called life in Episode 6; thus conflicting between Dwayna and Melandru. Its second domain, mind, links to neither.
• Dhuum never had ice, Grenth brought it into the pantheon (as mentioned). This related Jormag and Zhaitan to Grenth alone.
• Dwayna, if not tied to Mordremoth’s “Life”, has no dragon.
• Kralkatorrik, being of Crystal, has no god. Its second domain is suspected to be Air, relating it to Dwayna’s second, but there still lacks a “Crystal God”.
• Lyssa, being of “Beauty” and “Illusion” has no dragon, except arguably Mordremoth’s “Mind”.
• There is no War Dragon. There is no Knowledge Dragon (even if the DSD is unknown to players, that does not make it the “dragon of secrets”). Nor no “Order” Dragon (Kormir’s second adopted domain, brought into the pantheon with her rise).

Once you go past the three obvious, it becomes impossible to relate them. And this has been brought up so many times ArenaNet made a joke about how the arguments always fall apart.

Luindu.2418:

• Zhaitan in a “undead island” or a “dead island who rise again”
• Mordremoth in a Jungle
• Primordus in a Volcano
• Jormag presumably on the Shiverpeak mountains like norns said
• Kralkatorrik “Crystal” in a desert… "types of glass are “silicate glasses” based on the chemical compound silica (silicon dioxide, or quartz), the primary constituent of sand". Crystal Dragon sounds better than Glass Dragon.
  By coincidence DSD wakes on the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unending_Ocean a ocean who was ruled by Margonites…until they “corrupt” (loose his humanity)

Zhaitan waking in an “undead land” (Orr isn’t an island but a peninsula) is pure coincidence (or rather, writer design but not lore correlation). Primordus did not wake up in a volcano, he moved to the Ring of Fire and created Draconis Mons’ volcano (or at least “rose it up”) – and we all know that the dragons create their first domain in their corruption. Kralkatorrik did not wake up to the desert, he woke up in the Blood Legion Homelands, he went to the desert only because he went to kill Glint for betraying him.

Margonites didn’t rule the whole Unending Ocean – they ruled the Clashing Seas, part of the Unending Ocean between Tyria and Cantha. The DSD, given what lore we have, woke up far west of the Clashing Seas (southwest of Tyria) – far away from any known human settlements (though potentially close to the Sunrise Crest area on the map).

And to go back to “we all know that the dragons create their first domain in their corruption” – the DSD’s corruption takes the form of tentacled monsters. This would imply that the DSD’s first domain is thus either “Flesh” or “Tentacles”, as best we can tell. Not water, which is what the DSD corrupts from. Just as Kralkatorrik turns flesh and soil to crystal, or Jormag turns the same to ice, or Zhaitan turns living flesh and plants to rotten flesh and plants and nutritious soil to crumbling soil.

Luindu.2418:

I think this was a “mind’s duel” between Balthazar and Primordus, like we play with Mordremoth. I think we’re talking with Primordus… (but well, that’s my theory)

Then why does Balthazar’s personality not once change from earlier encounters?

Also, Primordus has no domain of mind like Mordremoth – even the “stolen” domains were only death and plant, not shadow and mind.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

for all we know, he could be the Elder Dragon of Love and Hope, or of Flesh and Earth or something.

Elder Dragon of Love and Friendship!

now that would be interesting plot twist to see xD

First, +1 to a Love and Frienship Dragon! (Aurene!) xD (and again qoute seems broken)

@Konig : Breaking the machine was not a betrayal.[/qoute]
A: And that’s what my theory point, we’re wrong about balthazar’s real plans.

@Konig : Malchor laid eyes on what all six gods of the time looked like, which includes Abaddon.
A: In nightfall, Abaddon seems soo human, a giant floating head with a pair of floating hands, its obvious that they can change his shape to their convenience.

@Konig : We know enough to know that the Six Gods and the Six Elder Dragons are not the same thing. In either domain or actual body.
A: Not the same thing, but we know that dragons and Gods absorbs the same magic, the theory is that 1 vs 1 as spheres of domain, but if one God of dragon have all, they break the equilibrium, think about it like a Yin Yang.

@Konig : Technically they are different.
A: I think they are like two faces of the same coin.

@Konig : The gift is a bit dubious to know its exact nature. … . But either way: Kormir was a mortal, blessing or not. That blessing did not make her more than mortal.
A: A mortal with a gift of gods can let him absorb part of Abaddon, if that gift isn’t important why is Kormir the only one who can absorbs Abaddon? why not our characters? or someone like Jurah, the master of secrets?

@Konig : And that’s the thing about the gods’ domains. Only the first one actually sticks from transition to transition. Water goes from Abaddon, gets covered by Grenth’s ice while Big A is imprisoned, and goes to Lyssa afterward.
A: When looses Grenth the domain of water before the Abaddon’s defeat? Never, and even when abaddon is alive, Grenth has the ice domain. Water and Ice are differents.

Further, the norn refer to the gods as “Spirits of Action” and call them by their first domain – War, Death, Life, Nature, Knowledge (sadly we do not know how they call Lyssa) – because “names are a human thing”.

@Konig : No, Abaddon the god of wisdom and Abaddon the god of secrets are 100% the same being.
A: Schrodinger Past…

@Konig : And the attempt to relate the gods and dragons’ domains 1:1 have been attempted and horribly failed. Sure you can work death, fire, and nature…
A: Imho as opposite concepts or “corrupt” concepts:

• Grenth (Death/Rest) – Zhaitan (Undead)
• Kormir (Thruth) – Abaddon/DSD (Secrets)
• Balthazar (War with honor) – Primordus (War as destruction, scorched earth tactics)
• Lyssa (Reflection) – Kralkatorrik (Twisted Reflection)
• Melandru (Nature) – Mordremoth (Corrupted Nature)
  *Dwayna (Warmth of life, like “Take care of people”) – Jormag (“cold life”)
  I’m ok with there are two points, Jormag and Kralkatorrik, that maybe i’m not using the correct words, but i hope you understand what i’m thinking xD

@Konig : Zhaitan waking in an “undead land” (Orr isn’t an island but a peninsula) is pure coincidence (or rather, writer design but not lore correlation). Primordus did not wake up in a volcano, he moved to the Ring of Fire and created Draconis Mons’ volcano (or at least “rose it up”) – and we all know that the dragons create their first domain in their corruption. Kralkatorrik did not wake up to the desert, he woke up in the Blood Legion Homelands, he went to the desert only because he went to kill Glint for betraying him.

@Konig : Margonites didn’t rule the whole Unending Ocean – they ruled the Clashing Seas, part of the Unending Ocean between Tyria and Cantha. The DSD, given what lore we have, woke up far west of the Clashing Seas (southwest of Tyria) – far away from any known human settlements (though potentially close to the Sunrise Crest area on the map).
A : [url=https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Margonite] "n 175 BE, they ruled over the Unending Ocean and they began to create settlements on the coastlines north and west of Elona. " and why are you sure of the DSD awoke? in wiki is unknown.

@Konig: And to go back to “we all know that the dragons create their first domain in their corruption” – the DSD’s corruption takes the form of tentacled monsters. This would imply that the DSD’s first domain is thus either “Flesh” or “Tentacles”, as best we can tell.
“The only known shape of the deep sea dragon’s corruption comes from The Movement of the World, claiming that it twists water into tentacled horrors”
Margonites, Water and Tentacles, three coincidences with Abaddon ;D

@Konig : Primordus has no domain of mind like Mordremoth – even the “stolen” domains were only death and plant, not shadow and mind.
I don’t thinks is a “domain”, is only two wills fighting each other to take control.

well I must admitt one thing in Luindu’s argumentation [personally I’m still not convinced to his theory tho] that water and tentacles would be a common points between abaddy and DSD.

so even while so far there is nothing valid to support a thesis that balthy was “possesed” by prim, there may be some linkage between abaddy and DSD