Guild Wars 2

Honestly Phlunt had every right to claim the device for testing and documentation.

First the device works on the waypoint system, a very important system of Tyria. It is only normal to study the device to see if there are no unforseen side effects (like attracting Modrem). Also since the waypoint system is very important it is only normal to document it in case they have to make changes/inspect to the system (otherwhise they might have some serious problems that they can’t find because it isn’t documented) or they have to make a new one if the old one is broken.

Secondly, the device attracted modrem during the demonstration. It is unwise to leave such device in the hands of a child. The only reason she didn’t die was because Braham and the PC were there. So unless you want Taimi dead it is best to keep the device away from her.

Thirdly, Taimi is still a child. A child that still needs education not in inteligence but in wisdom. Leaving a device that affects the waypoints in immature hands is just waiting for disaster.

Finally Phlunt is the head of her ‘school’. If something with this device goes wrong then does not only Taimi suffers a lot, but the ‘school’ will suffer a lot as well. So to protect his ‘school’ Phlunt can’t take no risks since the device affect all the waypoints.

The argument that it is for the ‘greater good’ is in my opinion (I don’t know what the writers think) just something the PC has to say since Taimi is very pridefull and stuborn.

A Tyria in which it’s acceptable for a gang of adults to steal from a scared, handicapped child is a Tyria not worth saving. #lettheEdlerDragonswin

I’m not okay with Taimi running of like that. If I could have slapped her when she tried to run away, I would have. But hey, I got to run after her when I had more important things to do.

Knut part of remembering Jormag arrival is definitively bad, however.

Geesh, I’m seeing a lot of mixed reactions.

Phlunt stole nothing. Taimi is under-aged. It is Asuran Law that her inventions are under the custody of her superiors. For outsiders like us (Charr, Humans, Sylvari, and Norn), this may seem like stealing, but it really isn’t.

Tim.6450:

Honestly Phlunt had every right to claim the device for testing and documentation.

It’s not so much the fact that he did it that bugged me. It’s the fact that you had no option to show even the remotest speck of an attitude toward him if you didn’t appreciate his attitude, which was vile and curmudgeonly from the first time you have to deal with him in the previous part of DR.

Yes, I didn’t like it either, but on the other hand asura are very much like it, opressive and looking for weakness. They brutalize inteligent species for experiments, they do not care to much if they see profit and knowledge to gain. So…

Here’s something that just occurred to me: While Taimi’s a ward of Rata Sum Protective Services (or something like that), aren’t Zojja and/or Vorpp her legal guardians at this time? I’m not entirely sure, but if that’s the case, then they’re the ones that should be able to hold on to the device (and its patent) for Taimi, not Phlunt.

Besides, even without knowing from the asuran personal story that nearly the whole council are not to be trusted any further than they can be thrown, Phlunt’s proven to be a useless, obstructive piece of feces that we should’ve not bothered with.

Couldn’t we have gotten someone else? Ludo and Zudo? Vorpp (not a councilor, but he’s an emissary, so he has some political importance, maybe)? Even Flax would’ve been a better choice (he’d have probably ended up pulling the same stunt, but it’d be more believable for him to get away with it)

While Taimi’s “Imma run away now” moment was stupid and unnecessary (besides showing the way to the new section of Dry Top), I’d still side with her against Phlunt if I had the choice.

Palador.2170:

“Phlunt, if you’re backing out of the deal, then fine. Taimi, turn off your device. We’ll order the Pact to start destroying waypoints and gates immediately.”

“What’s that? You say I can’t do that? I can and I am. I am the Commander of the Pact, and I AM IN CHARGE HERE! If you are unwilling to do your part and help us against the dragons, then we’ll do it without you. The cost to you and yours will not be considered. Leave, or I and my team will execute you and leave your corpses for the vultures. Once the waypoint network is destroyed, the dragon will attack the only place such energy remains. The rest of us will have time to gather our forces while it devours Rata Sum.”

“What’s that? You were, perhaps, a bit hasty? Yes, I thought so too.”

First, the PC is not in CHARGE here. He is just the SECOND in command of a military group, so he/she can’t make this kind of decision alone, cuz Trahearne is in CHARGE here. And I think the title is now more like an honorary title since, he/she doesn’t even sniffed near the Pact for a year or so.
Second, yes you are the “boss” of the group, but you seriously think Braham and Taimi would murder innocents? For you?
Third, if the PC would have the power to kill a member of the Arcane Council, and state that the Pact will not protect Rata Sum, all of the asuras (since they are arrogant little kittens) would leave the Pact and take their genius and technology with them. No more laser cannons, no more golems to do the dirty work. And remember the asuran technology played a huge role in taking down Zhaitan.
Fourth, it’s not stealing, the Council just wants to examine the device, since it is one of the greatest accomplishments of all time. And they would give it back to Taimi when she becomes older. Taimi is just being a kid (since she is one) and makes a big deal out of it.
Fifth, the World Summit is near, the PC, the one who should talk about collaboration, and making peace, just threatend one of the world leaders. Sure everyone will say: “That’s a fine man there, I should listen to him”.

If you would screw up whole Tyria because of a kid can’t part ways from her invention, when she KNOWS that it must be done to make the summit happen, then go on please. Let the world sink into the belly of Mordremoth, but at least Taimi will die happily.

I think your all over reacting. You made a statement of something like “well, if you really want to keep it….” implying that you would back Tiami; but, she immediately interrupts you saying that she will give up the invention. Clearly this is because of the need to hand over the invention to the Asuran council so that it can actually be put be put to full use and probably so that its benefits can be fully explored.

I actually read this post before doing the story and was quite bummed about being forced to steal my friends invention…but when I actually saw the story: I realized you guys are just over reacting to the concept. You weren’t even chasing her down to get her invention from her….you were chasing her because Braham said that she was running into inquest territory and was likely to get herself into trouble. Which she did.

Main character is so lame to not support Taimi’s hard work and fight against the arcane counsel, if anything you could use it as leverage and say we will share you the device after you come to the summit…

TYHE.6435:

Yes, I didn’t like it either, but on the other hand asura are very much like it, opressive and looking for weakness. They brutalize inteligent species for experiments, they do not care to much if they see profit and knowledge to gain. So…

Anyone who has done Asura personal stories shouldn’t be surprised at Phlunt’s behaviour. A lot of high ranking Asura are basically kittens.

First: I’m okay with Taimi giving her invention over. But she wasn’t asked to GIVE it over, she was TOLD it was to be taken from her. Honestly, the invention is only half of what they need. They need her input and notes as well. They didn’t ask for that, they just wanted to take the invention.

Second: If we’d had a chance to something encouraging, and give her some support, then she might have calmed down and not gone running off in the first place. The plot dictates that we don’t do this, but … really? We just stand back and let Phlunt blackmail her (and us)? And I’m sure that if it had been presented properly, Taimi would have been thrilled to share all the notes and information on the device, considering it would be her chance to show off even more.

Third: We are the highest ranking member of the Pact in the area. This is a dragon issue, we ARE in command there. And I want Taimi officially working with the Pact. Why? Because that means that she’ll have an assistant or two (likely from the Priory) helping her and documenting things (with her name and notes all over them, I’m sure). She’d also have a couple of guards with her, likely from the Vigil and maybe one from the Order of Whispers. Then we wouldn’t be running off and leaving her all alone in dangerous areas.

Finally: After the attack on the Pale Tree, I don’t think we can say that Taimi would be safer back at Rata Sum, or anywhere else for that matter. But she’s the one that understands Scarlet’s research the best. She’s three steps ahead of anyone else on figuring out what’s going on. Kid or not, we NEED her. (And she’s better off than some kid heroes. At least Scruffy doesn’t follow her around going “Hey! Listen!” all the time.)

I’m loving the fact everybody is being so high and mighty and not considering the very fact of the two results that could be made from this.

A: Taimi keeps her device. Phlunt doesn’t attend the summit, the support of the Asura doesn’t get given and we lose that much help and aid.
B: Taimi loses her device, but Phlunt attends the summit and we have the chance to get the full Asura aid.

I’m sorry, but threatening Phlunt makes us lose Asura aid. siding with Taimi does the same thing. Yes, we might want her to keep it but the PC in universe should be smart enough to see it’s a sacrifice that MUST BE MADE.

Palador.2170:

First: I’m okay with Taimi giving her invention over. But she wasn’t asked to GIVE it over, she was TOLD it was to be taken from her. Honestly, the invention is only half of what they need. They need her input and notes as well. They didn’t ask for that, they just wanted to take the invention.

Second: If we’d had a chance to something encouraging, and give her some support, then she might have calmed down and not gone running off in the first place. The plot dictates that we don’t do this, but … really? We just stand back and let Phlunt blackmail her (and us)? And I’m sure that if it had been presented properly, Taimi would have been thrilled to share all the notes and information on the device, considering it would be her chance to show off even more.

Third: We are the highest ranking member of the Pact in the area. This is a dragon issue, we ARE in command there. And I want Taimi officially working with the Pact. Why? Because that means that she’ll have an assistant or two (likely from the Priory) helping her and documenting things (with her name and notes all over them, I’m sure). She’d also have a couple of guards with her, likely from the Vigil and maybe one from the Order of Whispers. Then we wouldn’t be running off and leaving her all alone in dangerous areas.

Finally: After the attack on the Pale Tree, I don’t think we can say that Taimi would be safer back at Rata Sum, or anywhere else for that matter. But she’s the one that understands Scarlet’s research the best. She’s three steps ahead of anyone else on figuring out what’s going on. Kid or not, we NEED her. (And she’s better off than some kid heroes. At least Scruffy doesn’t follow her around going “Hey! Listen!” all the time.)

It was told to her to hand over the device because it’s the asuran law. If she is a genius she can understand this. Every asura has to part ways from the inventions he makes while he is an apprentice. None of them runs away with them, especially if the invention plays this big of a role in making the summit happen.
She runs away, because she is a child. It’s her reaction, you can’t control another being even if you are the PC.
How many Pact members do you saw there?
Taimi would not be safe in Rata Sum, but no one said she would. But it certainly not helps that the race with one of the most modern technology and magic is not helping us fight the dragons, because we are wanted a child make feel better. The asuras fleed from one of the dragon’s before, they’ll manage to do it again. Build a flying city and more asuran stuff and magic and ponies. And we stay here without lazors, golems, not to mention if one of the asuran gates disfunctions there is no one to fix them.
I’m still saying everyone should calm down and realize that Taimi had to make a sacrifice and there was no other way to keep the peace. I understand that everyone adores her, but what she did was stupid. If you would let her keep the device it would mean the end of Tyria, or at least double the damage that would otherwise happen to it.

Kalavier.1097:

I’m loving the fact everybody is being so high and mighty and not considering the very fact of the two results that could be made from this.

A: Taimi keeps her device. Phlunt doesn’t attend the summit, the support of the Asura doesn’t get given and we lose that much help and aid.
B: Taimi loses her device, but Phlunt attends the summit and we have the chance to get the full Asura aid.

I’m sorry, but threatening Phlunt makes us lose Asura aid. siding with Taimi does the same thing. Yes, we might want her to keep it but the PC in universe should be smart enough to see it’s a sacrifice that MUST BE MADE.

Funny, I just went through the first part of the asura story (the up to level 10 part) and saw how the PC basically kicked the kitten out of another asuran who tried to screw him over… right in front of the council. Yet getting a council member to attend the summit is soooo hard and the PC’s attitude has apparently changed to wanting to comply with kittenbaggery rather than facing it head-on. I’m sorry, but this post-explanation stuff is just an excuse for poor design.

I have written things myself. I know how it works… ultimately, you decide how the story goes and if you really want it to go a certain way, you can make it so. The only thing standing in your way is the stuff you’ve already written as part of the same story, but honestly, that can be stretched a lot if you really need to do so.

Consider the fact, for example, that the PC basically went around and did tasks for the leaders to get them to come to the summit. Were all of those tasks really convincing? Not necessarily. But guess what? It is part of the game’s fact now, because the writers wrote it and Anet released it.

Or how bout the fact that Taimi somehow managed to pick up her device (which I guess was conveniently available to pick up and carry) and waltz out the door before anyone could react to the fact that she was running away. And then the PC just happened to catch up to her at just the right time to save her from the inquest. I mean, really, if story logic is an issue, I’m sure many of us could poke an enormous amount of holes in what’s been written.

It’s a video game, after all. The medium can’t have the same strictness to it that other mediums do – games are giant hubs of “suspend your disbelief x 1,000” from the get-go.

Faux.1937:

Im not ok with giving away Taimi’s hard work, even if its for the greater good, I would just make them with my Might. I goes against things I believe in.

There I was this big, bad, mean-looking Charr looming over these tiny Asura and the best I could do is passively listen…

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

Well I guess that brings up the crux of the situation. How much agency must we have? I understand not being able to impact who we bring to the table, but we could at least have some choices in how we bring them to the table.
In the case of Taimi… well I like Taimi! This feels like a smaller more personal instance, the result has to be fixed (we get the Asura to the summit, for the greater good) but how we get there should have given us some more agency.
What I’m say is, we should have been given the choice to crack some skulls :P
But then again I guess ANet is constrained in terms of how much resources they can spend on giving us branching plot lines.

Levistis.8356:

Man so much negativity here, and I came thinking this was just a little joking thread :/

I for one thought the story was awesome, especially the World Summit.

Me, too actually. It’s because the story has pulled me in that I wish I could have helped Taimi out a bit more :P

Wanderer.3248:

Maybe the writers have taken some of GoTs (and other soap operas) writing to heart, because this sort of emotional manipulation of the audience is exactly what they do to keep you hooked.

Don’t worry, eventually the villain gets their comeuppance.

It’s a complement towards the story writing that they’re able to get us interested enough to allow for emotional manipulation.

Labjax.2465:

It doesn’t matter what the excuse is. The point is, it forces the player to do nothing about the fact that his/her friend is getting screwed over. That’s not how friends act in real life. In fact, if you were a commander in real life, you would probably still be biased toward your friend, instead of deferring to some schmuck just to keep the peace.

The problem isn’t the way we acted since different players have different interpretations of their characters (as we can see in this thread) and I’m sure that there are a lot of players who didn’t find this to be unrealistic. It’s that there wasn’t more variety provided in how we deal with the situation.

Harper.4173:

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

Agreed.

I’ll never forget what they did to Ascalon.

You mean what the humans did to Charr lands :P

Mada.5319:

Destiny’s Edge is disbanded? Why would members of a disbanded guild who now have other responsibilities come to a summit which already have attendees that are experienced with dragons.

They did join up again for Zhaitan, but yeah I don’t think they’re together together again.

Pipra.7580:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

LS2 isn’t a personal story at all. It’s a scripted event.

I felt this in ‘The Dragon’s Reach: Part 2’ more than in any other part of the game.

Not necessarily a bad thing, since the story is pretty good (for me at least). Just that more interaction would make it better, this being a video game and all.

So my take on this is that Taimi got handed the idiot ball and Phlunt is a jerk, and the PC was written to be spineless in this particular situation. I just sat there twiddling my thumbs while some egotistical politician terrorizes my friend to the point she nearly gets herself killed. I find this unacceptable.

I am the leader of this little band of adventurers.

First decision: order Taimi to stop running. She may have attached herself to the group by fiat, but I can require her to sit on the sidelines, back at Rata Sum, where it’s reasonably safe. She doesn’t get to be on the bleeding edge of research into Scarlet, or leylines, or dragons if she doesn’t follow that directive.

Decision two: As a critical piece of equipment in the fight against the Elder dragons, and developed at my request and on my group’s time, Taimi’s invention is under my control. Even if he disputes my jurisdiction over the device, Phlunt is now talking to me for control of the device.

At this point, Taimi is safe and calming down; from her perspective, I am standing between her and injustice. Phlunt is now discussing this with an adult, and unless he is stupid on top of being a jerk, will do so in a calm and polite manner.

From there, whatever agreements need to be hashed out to turn the device over to Rata Sum are performed rationally, rather than condescendingly, or later, during an emotionally vulnerable moment. Further, Taimi’s concerns over losing control of her invention can be addressed.

Finally, some MacGuffin pops up that leads us to the new region of the map, and the story continues.

Doesn’t this sound so much better?

MrWagner.8964:

draxynnic.3719:

In international diplomacy, making claims on territory on the basis that it used to be yours and you lost it in some past historical event is called ‘revanchism’. It’s not considered good behaviour, and certainly isn’t regarded as justification for anything, let alone employing weapons of mass destruction indiscriminately against a civilian population, which is what the Searing was.

And most cases of revanchism represent territories that were lost a lot more recently than twelve hundred years ago. Anybody who laid a claim on a territory on the basis that it was part of their nation over a thousand years ago would be laughed out of the UN. Unless perhaps if they happened to be a permanent member of the Security Council.

You do realize you are trying to force real life definitions and norms on a fantasy world? And you bring in the UN as well?
Revanchism isn’t considered a good behaviour in OUR world, because the majority of the world says so. So if we wan’t to know if the charr (re)conquest was justified or not we need to play by GW rules.
Personally I think the asuras don’t give a kitten about it, the norns want to retake their homeland as well, so they can relate, maybe the sylvari will agree with the humans, but because they have such a unique world view it’s a 50-50 chance for them to take side with the charr in the matter.
Of course these are just speculations, but until the majority of Tyria will say that it is bad to take back your home, the charr will have rightful claim for Ascalon.

At most, what you say means that neither side has the moral high ground… which is the general point I’m making.

That said, the majority of Tyria does seem to be moving towards the idea that mass murder of a civilian populace is bad, whether out of revanchist motives or not, increasingly including even some of the charr.

As for the other races… simply put, those who care at all just want the two sides to grow up and get over it, and that would be no less true if the Searing hadn’t happened and a truce had been made while the charr were still contained to the north. History doesn’t matter, it’s the facts in the present that matter. (And if history does matter, then the charr should give Ascalon back to the grawl.)

And if someone is about to say that if the charr were still stuck north of the Wall they wouldn’t have made peace… then they’d be regarded the same as the centaurs in GW2, who have pretty much exactly the same revanchist claim on Kryta as the charr did on Ascalon. I don’t think there’s any NPC who isn’t explicitly a bad guy that thinks the centaurs have the moral high ground.

(For the record, though, there are some indications that the sylvari would likely have more sympathies for humans if push came to shove – the Pale Tree implies a dislike for charr destructiveness in Cadeyrne’s story, and there’s mention in an unfortunately now obscure interview that humans were the first race that sylvari had a good first contact with. However, if push comes to shove, I think their first inclination would be to attempt to broker a peace, although they might fight to prevent a(nother) genocide if they had reason to believe it was about to get to that point.)

CureForLiving.5360:

Harper.4173:

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

Agreed.

I’ll never forget what they did to Ascalon.

You mean what the humans did to Charr lands :P

As far as we know, humans just conquered. The charr brought down a rain of fire that destroyed all surface plant life and evaporated all water in the region, and which arguably the land still hasn’t fully recovered from two and a half centuries later.

That said though, and this is important, the charr who did that are not the charr of today. It was the Flame Legion that was responsible for the Searing, and while the other legions collaborated at the time, modern charr are not responsible for the sins of their forebears.

Any more than the people of Ascalon were in 1070 AE.

I was under the impression that the Human-Char treaty split Ascalon in essence. The char gave back some of the territories around Ebonhawke.

Seems to be, yeah. I’ve got a crude map somewhere of what the current territory of Ebonhawke seems to be – it encompasses a lot of the Fields of Ruin and has a spur going into Blazeridge.

I have a hypothesis that Smodur is planning to give everything south of the Wall and east of the Brand to Ebonhawke – the charr don’t have much in that region, and the Brand and the Wall make for good natural boundaries. The Brand has got to be a major complication for logistics involving anything on the opposite side, and formally handing over the territory would mean that Smodur can regard anything happening on the opposite side of the Brand as Ebonhawke’s problem.

That said, it hasn’t been finalised, but I’m pretty sure the settlement that’s already occurred outside the walls is stuff that Smodur has already agreed to short of the entire process collapsing back into outright war, leaving the rest of that territory as collateral he can use for negotiating without giving up anything he really doesn’t want to.

Mind you, apart from the first paragraph this post is all just my hypothesis on what Smodur is planning.

MrWagner.8964:

draxynnic.3719:

In international diplomacy, making claims on territory on the basis that it used to be yours and you lost it in some past historical event is called ‘revanchism’. It’s not considered good behaviour, and certainly isn’t regarded as justification for anything, let alone employing weapons of mass destruction indiscriminately against a civilian population, which is what the Searing was.

And most cases of revanchism represent territories that were lost a lot more recently than twelve hundred years ago. Anybody who laid a claim on a territory on the basis that it was part of their nation over a thousand years ago would be laughed out of the UN. Unless perhaps if they happened to be a permanent member of the Security Council.

You do realize you are trying to force real life definitions and norms on a fantasy world? And you bring in the UN as well?
Revanchism isn’t considered a good behaviour in OUR world, because the majority of the world says so. So if we wan’t to know if the charr (re)conquest was justified or not we need to play by GW rules.
Personally I think the asuras don’t give a kitten about it, the norns want to retake their homeland as well, so they can relate, maybe the sylvari will agree with the humans, but because they have such a unique world view it’s a 50-50 chance for them to take side with the charr in the matter.
Of course these are just speculations, but until the majority of Tyria will say that it is bad to take back your home, the charr will have rightful claim for Ascalon.

If drax is guilty of forcing real-life norms on a fantasy world, then you’re guilty of forcing one fantasy world onto a different one. It was already established that the Charr homeland was north of Ascalon back in GW1, they literally changed that last year.

It’s easy to change history when you have the editing pen. Especially when that history is neither yours, nor what you want it to be.

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

This. As an Ascalonian human, its hard for me to stomach the dialogue options I have with the charr as if we are buddy/buddy.

As far as I’m concerned, they will be the next threat to Tyria after we have gotten rid of the Elder Dragons.

Stramatus.5219:

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

This. As an Ascalonian human, its hard for me to stomach the dialogue options I have with the charr as if we are buddy/buddy.

As far as I’m concerned, they will be the next threat to Tyria after we have gotten rid of the Elder Dragons.

Even as a Charr-fan this is probably very true. They’re a militaristic nation of born and bred warriors, no way they’d just sit ideally around during peace times.

Theft of property (both physical and intellectual) in the name of the “greater good” has been abused in history, but in this particular case it’s neither theft, nor an abuse of the “greater good” because:

1) Phlunt claimed the invention will be returned to Taimi upon her graduation in front of witnesses – one of which happens to be the Commander of the Pact, who is a pretty credible witness. He’s taking control, not stealing credit.

2) Dragon. They’re malicious forces of destruction. It’s not doing something in the name of the “greater good” of <insert favorite political or religious ideology>, it’s in the name of not having everyone die non-hyperbolic horrible deaths. Seriously, an individual’s property or pride is not worth the collective lives of the world.

CureForLiving.5360:

Stramatus.5219:

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

This. As an Ascalonian human, its hard for me to stomach the dialogue options I have with the charr as if we are buddy/buddy.

As far as I’m concerned, they will be the next threat to Tyria after we have gotten rid of the Elder Dragons.

Even as a Charr-fan this is probably very true. They’re a militaristic nation of born and bred warriors, no way they’d just sit ideally around during peace times.

Exactly. ANET does a good job of spinning the Charr as just “retaking their homeland” but oh how quickly we forget the fact that they also went after Orr and Kryta which resulted in the sinking of Orr and Kryta would have been obliterated were it not for the Mursaat.

My feeling is this, most charr went along with the war to retake their homeland. The attacks on Kryta and Orr, were the flame legion’s doing. This is the main reason for the change in attitude from “Destroy all humans!” in GW1 to “Get off my land!” in GW2 Flame legion still hates humanity just as much as they did back in GW1 as their book “One hundred and one reasons why all Humans should die, Vol III” found in iron marches demonstrates.

draxynnic.3719:

Seems to be, yeah. I’ve got a crude map somewhere of what the current territory of Ebonhawke seems to be – it encompasses a lot of the Fields of Ruin and has a spur going into Blazeridge.

A charr in field of ruin, near the brand mentions the treaty will give fields of ruin to ebonhawke.

That’s the most that is said.

Stramatus.5219:

CureForLiving.5360:

Stramatus.5219:

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

This. As an Ascalonian human, its hard for me to stomach the dialogue options I have with the charr as if we are buddy/buddy.

As far as I’m concerned, they will be the next threat to Tyria after we have gotten rid of the Elder Dragons.

Even as a Charr-fan this is probably very true. They’re a militaristic nation of born and bred warriors, no way they’d just sit ideally around during peace times.

Exactly. ANET does a good job of spinning the Charr as just “retaking their homeland” but oh how quickly we forget the fact that they also went after Orr and Kryta which resulted in the sinking of Orr and Kryta would have been obliterated were it not for the Mursaat.

Oh how quickly we forget the fact that 250 years ago or more, the Charr were under a completely different type of leadership, and driven that far by Titan magic fueling their rampage.

Or how before the concept of a human being equal to them or even anything more then a slave was weird.

The Charr of today are different then the Charr of GW1. I don’t see how if the dragons get beat the Charr will INSTANTLY turn and go “WAS FUN GUYS, NOW WE KILL ALL OF YOU!”

Shiren.9532:

…The asura are a race of geniuses and as far as I know Taimi does not have an expertise background in waypoint studies. I’m confident that somewhere out in Tyria there is an asura that understands waypoints well enough to do what Taimi did, or even better than her….

But they didn’t. They’ve had weeks to solve this problem and Taimi was the only one who came up with a viable solution. Since she did something the other Asura either couldn’t or wouldn’t I don’t blame her for not trusting them or not wanting to hand her device over.

Regardless of my opinion the player should have been given the option to either defend Taimi or hand the machine over. Which I think is the real issue here. We weren’t given a choice.

Kalavier.1097:

The Charr of today are different then the Charr of GW1. I don’t see how if the dragons get beat the Charr will INSTANTLY turn and go “WAS FUN GUYS, NOW WE KILL ALL OF YOU!”

Wrong. You are forgetting the fact that even after the time of the Flame Legion’s supremecy, the Charr was still at war with the humans until relatively recently when Queen Jennah finally managed to sign a cease-fire with them, which even in the last living story she called shaky at best.

Bathos.6341:

My feeling is this, most charr went along with the war to retake their homeland. The attacks on Kryta and Orr, were the flame legion’s doing. This is the main reason for the change in attitude from “Destroy all humans!” in GW1 to “Get off my land!” in GW2 Flame legion still hates humanity just as much as they did back in GW1 as their book “One hundred and one reasons why all Humans should die, Vol III” found in iron marches demonstrates.

And this book too?:

• Book 1
  How To: Conduct a Searing Ritual
  Now with even more recipes for destruction!

Make no mistake, all Charr were equally on board for humanity’s annihilation in Prophecies. That’s just how they were written. This “It’s all the Flame Legion’s doing!” is a plot device used by GW2 to give them an easy out on making the Charr a playable race. There’s not even any mention of them until EotN, which is the narrative prequel to this game.

Now with even more recipes for destruction! … Think about the tone of that line for a minute. Do you really think GW2 ANet thinks of GW1 as much more than a silly story not to be taken very seriously? They don’t because they don’t.

Stramatus.5219:

Kalavier.1097:

The Charr of today are different then the Charr of GW1. I don’t see how if the dragons get beat the Charr will INSTANTLY turn and go “WAS FUN GUYS, NOW WE KILL ALL OF YOU!”

Wrong. You are forgetting the fact that even after the time of the Flame Legion’s supremecy, the Charr was still at war with the humans until relatively recently when Queen Jennah finally managed to sign a cease-fire with them, which even in the last living story she called shaky at best.

And frankly, said war was as far as I’ve seen, treated as the lesser focus of the charr race, more like keeping the sieges going but doing NO OTHER EFFORT to actually wage a full war, like crossing the shiverpeaks and attacking kryta directly.

Hell, in Sea of Sorrow’s we had a charr ship taking Ascalon relics to Krta as gifts, and I remember reading about a charr character who mentions the Iron Legion WAS testing the possibility of peace/end of conflict before the new Krytan prince came to Ebonhawke to play army men and made the field run red with charr and human blood.

Especially while being on my Norn for the first run through, I was ready to punt Phlunt into the Mist! At least it gives poor Rytlock a chew toy to play with while he’s down there.

While I would love an option to kick Phlunt’s head off his shoulders, I honestly would have been happy with an option to say “One moment, Councilor.” and then talk to Taimi. Then we could have convinced her that, even if we can’t stand the jerk, we need Phlunt’s help, but we can make sure that Taimi gets put on record as the person behind the device. Yes, Phlunt would still get credit for “having the insight to realize the importance of Taimi’s device” and all that, but we could at least make sure it’s well known that it’s HER work.

I also think we should have REALLY called in some Pact help at that point. Phlunt’s guards were useless when the dragon’s minions attacked, and they’d be useless against the Inquest, too. Or anything else in the area, for that matter. For the love of whatever gods you may choose, let’s get some competent guards on that thing as it’s transported!

Kalavier.1097:

draxynnic.3719:

Seems to be, yeah. I’ve got a crude map somewhere of what the current territory of Ebonhawke seems to be – it encompasses a lot of the Fields of Ruin and has a spur going into Blazeridge.

A charr in field of ruin, near the brand mentions the treaty will give fields of ruin to ebonhawke.

That’s the most that is said.

There is, however, a Vanguard outpost in southeastern Blazeridge. It’s possible, though, that the charr in question regards that outpost as part of the Fields of Ruin region – geographical regions are not necessarily nicely boxed up in squares and rectangles in the underlying lore.

Apart from a fort and a charr fishing village to the west of that outpost, though, the charr don’t have anything in the region in question – it’s mostly ogre and grawl territory. Whether formally handed over or not, I doubt Smodur would complain much if Ebonhawke was to conquer that strip, as long as Ebonhawke cooperated in keeping the Brand under control.

Kalavier.1097:

Stramatus.5219:

CureForLiving.5360:

Stramatus.5219:

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

This. As an Ascalonian human, its hard for me to stomach the dialogue options I have with the charr as if we are buddy/buddy.

As far as I’m concerned, they will be the next threat to Tyria after we have gotten rid of the Elder Dragons.

Even as a Charr-fan this is probably very true. They’re a militaristic nation of born and bred warriors, no way they’d just sit ideally around during peace times.

Exactly. ANET does a good job of spinning the Charr as just “retaking their homeland” but oh how quickly we forget the fact that they also went after Orr and Kryta which resulted in the sinking of Orr and Kryta would have been obliterated were it not for the Mursaat.

Oh how quickly we forget the fact that 250 years ago or more, the Charr were under a completely different type of leadership, and driven that far by Titan magic fueling their rampage.

Or how before the concept of a human being equal to them or even anything more then a slave was weird.

The Charr of today are different then the Charr of GW1. I don’t see how if the dragons get beat the Charr will INSTANTLY turn and go “WAS FUN GUYS, NOW WE KILL ALL OF YOU!”

This is pretty much my thinking as well. The charr are militaristic, but miltiaristic doesn’t necessarily mean wanting war with everyone all the time, and it’s hard to go back to fighting against someone you’ve fought beside (it’s part of the reason a common enemy is such a great uniter – it takes a lot to turn someone whom you’ve fought against a common enemy with back into the alien that needs to be destroyed). The charr have (finally) learned the value of peaceful relations and trade, and there are plenty of other enemies in Tyria – odds are, by the time the dragon threat is removed, the three allied legions will start regarding the other nations as more allied legions that happen to not be horned biped cats.

Kalavier.1097:

Hell, in Sea of Sorrow’s we had a charr ship taking Ascalon relics to Krta as gifts, and I remember reading about a charr character who mentions the Iron Legion WAS testing the possibility of peace/end of conflict before the new Krytan prince came to Ebonhawke to play army men and made the field run red with charr and human blood.

Actually, it was the Commodore that phlunted that one up. If the shipment had actually arrived, history may have turned out differently.

Or, you know, not. Peace is one of those things that is both simple and complex – all you need is for both sides to want it at the same time. Humans have every bit as much reason to hate the charr as the charr did humans prior to the Searing – I’ve said for quite a while that the thing that has kept the humans and charr fighting for so long is more caused by their similarities than their differences.

Haha, I was the exact opposite. Taimi’s behaviour just proved she’s a little kid who is out of her league and why she needs adult supervision, like Phlunt said.

Dissapointing, Especially since Taimi is smart, has a future, and phlunt took it all away while even almost dying, and still succeeded with thievery. BS imo. Phlunt lost, period. I know Angel Mcoy (i know last name is written wrong, sorry) inserted this as a dramatical entry, but it doesn’t add up, it just frustrates.

For instance stargate sg1 is superior good series. But the most boring episodes are the ones with political games, for people who like or dislike stargate program. It’s realistic, but massively boring. We don’t need more politics. Belgium/American politics are boring enough as it is, with all lobbying, keep it out of the game, thanks.

Honestly I have no idea why anyone takes her side (other than, "BUT SHE’S CUTE THOH!!1!) I mean seriously. She’s a child. She very much acts like it in this episode. She almost got herself killed because of her childish actions. If she wants to prove she’s responsible enough to hang on to the device until she’s of age, then she should prove it by acting like an adult, not throwing a temper tantrum and endangering herself, and her friends. I really enjoyed her character and she’s extremely intelligent, but still a child. Phlunt isn’t destroying her future, she’ll still be credited with the creation of that contraption, she just can’t hold on to it until she is of age.

I wanted to smack Taimi upside the head when she had her tantrum. Tyria depends upon WPs and her narcissism (seemingly the nature and nurture of Asurans) could have cost Tyria dearly. We could have lost both the device and and Taimi. Her behavior is classic Mary Sue.

As commander, I would give her lecture on war profiteering…

Tim.6450:

Honestly Phlunt had every right to claim the device for testing and documentation.

First the device works on the waypoint system, a very important system of Tyria. It is only normal to study the device to see if there are no unforseen side effects (like attracting Modrem). Also since the waypoint system is very important it is only normal to document it in case they have to make changes/inspect to the system (otherwhise they might have some serious problems that they can’t find because it isn’t documented) or they have to make a new one if the old one is broken.

Secondly, the device attracted modrem during the demonstration. It is unwise to leave such device in the hands of a child. The only reason she didn’t die was because Braham and the PC were there. So unless you want Taimi dead it is best to keep the device away from her.

Thirdly, Taimi is still a child. A child that still needs education not in inteligence but in wisdom. Leaving a device that affects the waypoints in immature hands is just waiting for disaster.

Finally Phlunt is the head of her ‘school’. If something with this device goes wrong then does not only Taimi suffers a lot, but the ‘school’ will suffer a lot as well. So to protect his ‘school’ Phlunt can’t take no risks since the device affect all the waypoints.

The argument that it is for the ‘greater good’ is in my opinion (I don’t know what the writers think) just something the PC has to say since Taimi is very pridefull and stuborn.

Stop being so logical. The forum is too busy crying that we didn’t side with the child going into brat mode.

CureForLiving.5360:

You mean what the humans did to Charr lands :P

You mean the comeuppance the Charr got for displacing the Grawl and Ogres that were already there? annoying winky face

Lostwingman.5034:

CureForLiving.5360:

You mean what the humans did to Charr lands :P

You mean the comeuppance the Charr got for displacing the Grawl and Ogres that were already there? annoying winky face

As well as the dwarves and the forgotten. joins Lostwingman in flashing annoying winky face

Lostwingman.5034:

Stop being so logical. The forum is too busy crying that we didn’t side with the child going into brat mode.

I don’t know why I bother, but I’ll say it once again: The main complaint here was the lack of any option to have your own personality. The fact that people disagree on whether to side with Taimi is testament to why personality options are good.

You would expect this sort of “can’t do anything about it” character disagreement from a TV show or a book, not a video game.

As a human, I had to check Phlunt’s profile on the GW2 wiki first and it says “Phlunt is an old asura in the Council Level. It is unclear if he is a council member..” Asuras are very hard to trust, I would rather have the device be kept by Taimi for the meantime while I confer with Zojja than hand it over immediately to some shady old rat. Would’ve also liked to get another council member to attend the summit.

@Lostwingman.5034, One of the things about this is, anet had an opportunity to make a great scene, a time for player to choose like before, instead they picked to show an old mans ambitions and a childs attitude. The whole thing feels out of place and poorly designed.

If there is a greater reason for this and it comes into play later I will feel better, but still wasnt released in the best way.

Labjax.2465:

Lostwingman.5034:

Stop being so logical. The forum is too busy crying that we didn’t side with the child going into brat mode.

I don’t know why I bother, but I’ll say it once again: The main complaint here was the lack of any option to have your own personality. The fact that people disagree on whether to side with Taimi is testament to why personality options are good.

You would expect this sort of “can’t do anything about it” character disagreement from a TV show or a book, not a video game.

No, the main complaint I see here looks to be more like “Why can’t I completely screw over the summit and kitten off the Asura rep who agreed to possibly come to the meeting. kitten thieving adults robbing from disabled children. CURSE THEM ALL!”

I can see possibly talking about granting more rights to Taimi over it, or at least making sure she’s involved in any tech problems about it… but I’m seeing people saying they’d rather completely lose the Asura race support instead of having Taimi give up a device.

Kalavier.1097:

No, the main complaint I see here looks to be more like “Why can’t I completely screw over the summit and kitten off the Asura rep who agreed to possibly come to the meeting. kitten thieving adults robbing from disabled children. CURSE THEM ALL!”

I can see possibly talking about granting more rights to Taimi over it, or at least making sure she’s involved in any tech problems about it… but I’m seeing people saying they’d rather completely lose the Asura race support instead of having Taimi give up a device.

Where?

Labjax.2465:

Lostwingman.5034:

Stop being so logical. The forum is too busy crying that we didn’t side with the child going into brat mode.

I don’t know why I bother, but I’ll say it once again: The main complaint here was the lack of any option to have your own personality. The fact that people disagree on whether to side with Taimi is testament to why personality options are good.

You would expect this sort of “can’t do anything about it” character disagreement from a TV show or a book, not a video game.

If this thread has shown us anything is that players have a diverse (but I wouldn’t call it greatly diverse, but still…) range of feelings and opinions regarding how this scenario should have played out. As the episodes continues we’re seeing more and more need for us to be able to express ourselves. Even if only given a handful of extra dialogue options that’s better than our characters acting in a way that does not match how we perceive them to be.

Thousands of lives are in danger and we’re supposed to be more concerned with the ego of a tween? Taimi is my favourite LS character, but there are more important things than her pride.

Noviere.7309:

Thousands of lives are in danger and we’re supposed to be more concerned with the ego of a tween? Taimi is my favourite LS character, but there are more important things than her pride.

Yea I would have loved to see the biconics meet up at the summit after that genius Palador’s childish fan fiction situation. Yea, let Taimi explain to Marjory that the Asura aren’t going to help prevent more deaths like Belinda’s because of some misplaced sense of selfish righteousness. Too many people in this thread are of the “feelz b4 realz” variety and don’t think things through. It’s one of those situations where “no, you were never going to get that option because it borders on the worst thing you could do”.