Guild Wars 2

Is it just me, or does everyone just seem like they’re going off on wild speculation about Balthazar being in conflict with the gods or having lost to Menzies?

Or is it too simple to just say:
The exodus of human gods was related to the dragons (which I think I read in some of the early lore) which means dragons actually absorbed (at least a majority) their power
and that Balthazar is just miffed about it?

(Balthazar says: “hey abated me, dimmed my light… But they will see me now.” what if They = the dragons, and “dimmed my light” = stole my power/weakened my position/influence on the world, and “they will see me now” = now that I can fight back, I’mma mess ’em up)

If the above is true he’s been waiting for a method to fight back, and reclaim his power which until Taimi’s device was setup was not possible for him.

I still believe that the human gods as a pantheon, are from multiple worlds and/or from the mists. Tyria isn’t native to them, and yet they did make it better. You could think of humanity as the Roman Empire. They built the roads, marked the boundaries and explored the frontiers. They pretty much civilized a portion of Tyria that was wilderness, and it really was. The Charr were not advanced at the time of human discovery, the same goes for the Centaur, the Ogres or the Trolls. With the exception of the Norn, Jotun & Asura which just are what they are, humanity brought the idea of grand civilization to the wretches of Surface Tyria.

On that note, Balthazar has always been a Antihero rather than a loving or caring god. He is the God of War, after all. Like most Gods of War, he isn’t exactly the most reliable or nicest god in the world— but he did have grand plans for humanity and after the conflict with Abbadon, there was obviously a decision between all the Six to put an end to their forced civilization of the World.

armaduras.8972:

I still believe that the human gods as a pantheon, are from multiple worlds and/or from the mists. Tyria isn’t native to them, and yet they did make it better. You could think of humanity as the Roman Empire. They built the roads, marked the boundaries and explored the frontiers. They pretty much civilized a portion of Tyria that was wilderness, and it really was. The Charr were not advanced at the time of human discovery, the same goes for the Centaur, the Ogres or the Trolls. With the exception of the Norn, Jotun & Asura which just are what they are, humanity brought the idea of grand civilization to the wretches of Surface Tyria.

On that note, Balthazar has always been a Antihero rather than a loving or caring god. He is the God of War, after all. Like most Gods of War, he isn’t exactly the most reliable or nicest god in the world— but he did have grand plans for humanity and after the conflict with Abbadon, there was obviously a decision between all the Six to put an end to their forced civilization of the World.

The human gods undid the efforts of the Seerers, Forgotten, Dwarves and Jotun by messing with the bloodstones. These races and the Mursaat were indeed civilized before the human gods brought the humans to tyria. And realize that the charr and centuar would have probably advanced if the humans didn’t sort of just exterminate them where ever they settled.

Justine.6351:

armaduras.8972:

I still believe that the human gods as a pantheon, are from multiple worlds and/or from the mists. Tyria isn’t native to them, and yet they did make it better. You could think of humanity as the Roman Empire. They built the roads, marked the boundaries and explored the frontiers. They pretty much civilized a portion of Tyria that was wilderness, and it really was. The Charr were not advanced at the time of human discovery, the same goes for the Centaur, the Ogres or the Trolls. With the exception of the Norn, Jotun & Asura which just are what they are, humanity brought the idea of grand civilization to the wretches of Surface Tyria.

On that note, Balthazar has always been a Antihero rather than a loving or caring god. He is the God of War, after all. Like most Gods of War, he isn’t exactly the most reliable or nicest god in the world— but he did have grand plans for humanity and after the conflict with Abbadon, there was obviously a decision between all the Six to put an end to their forced civilization of the World.

The human gods undid the efforts of the Seerers, Forgotten, Dwarves and Jotun by messing with the bloodstones. These races and the Mursaat were indeed civilized before the human gods brought the humans to tyria. And realize that the charr and centuar would have probably advanced if the humans didn’t sort of just exterminate them where ever they settled.

“When the Elder Dragons last rose, the jotun, like the other races of the world, possessed the ability to use magic with no restrictions until the Seers sealed it all within the Bloodstone. They survived the Elder Dragons’ rise due to being hidden by Glint along with the Seers, dwarves, and Forgotten.

According to Thrulnn the Lost, before their fall the jotun and norn were favored by the Six Human Gods and granted magic that led the races to prominence. He refers to this time as the Age of Giants. In time, their power came to rival that of the gods themselves, who began to fear that the jotun would use magic against them. The jotun giant-kings, confused and enraged, turned on one another, and the gods abandoned them, taking their magic away and handed it over to other races, causing the crumbling of jotun civilization. However, Elder Thruln and Priory scholars offer a different explanation for the jotun’s fall. They say that the jotun became too prideful and sought to make their own tribes superior, bringing the tribes into civil war out of their pride and greed. From this same pride and greed, the jotun are said to never marry outside of their tribe, and some Priory scholars mention that based on their ancient monuments, modern Jotun are far uglier than their ancient forebears as well.

Whichever story is more truthful, after the Exodus of the Gods, the jotun regained the ability to use magic in its less potent form. However, their lore-keepers, sages, and mystics had largely been killed off and the knowledge of using their old magic and technology became lost to them, leaving only the monuments and citadels behind as the race fell from power over the centuries."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jotun#History

And no, the Charr were Nomadic Barbarians, same for the centaur. It’s a life, but it isn’t civilization. Building on cities on the scale of the humans didn’t occur until… well the humans. If it was not for the GUILD WARS, who knows where the lore would have went. However the GUILD WARS, set humanity into a downhill spiral. Your character in GW1 isn’t a Hero, he is an Antihero. He puts the world in danger and saves the world. Hell in Prophecies he/she does both! GW1 was obviously the last Golden Era** for humanity— and yet no matter where you go in Tyria, you run into HUMAN Ruins.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Guild_Wars

armaduras.8972:

Justine.6351:

armaduras.8972:

I still believe that the human gods as a pantheon, are from multiple worlds and/or from the mists. Tyria isn’t native to them, and yet they did make it better. You could think of humanity as the Roman Empire. They built the roads, marked the boundaries and explored the frontiers. They pretty much civilized a portion of Tyria that was wilderness, and it really was. The Charr were not advanced at the time of human discovery, the same goes for the Centaur, the Ogres or the Trolls. With the exception of the Norn, Jotun & Asura which just are what they are, humanity brought the idea of grand civilization to the wretches of Surface Tyria.

On that note, Balthazar has always been a Antihero rather than a loving or caring god. He is the God of War, after all. Like most Gods of War, he isn’t exactly the most reliable or nicest god in the world— but he did have grand plans for humanity and after the conflict with Abbadon, there was obviously a decision between all the Six to put an end to their forced civilization of the World.

The human gods undid the efforts of the Seerers, Forgotten, Dwarves and Jotun by messing with the bloodstones. These races and the Mursaat were indeed civilized before the human gods brought the humans to tyria. And realize that the charr and centuar would have probably advanced if the humans didn’t sort of just exterminate them where ever they settled.

“When the Elder Dragons last rose, the jotun, like the other races of the world, possessed the ability to use magic with no restrictions until the Seers sealed it all within the Bloodstone. They survived the Elder Dragons’ rise due to being hidden by Glint along with the Seers, dwarves, and Forgotten.

According to Thrulnn the Lost, before their fall the jotun and norn were favored by the Six Human Gods and granted magic that led the races to prominence. He refers to this time as the Age of Giants. In time, their power came to rival that of the gods themselves, who began to fear that the jotun would use magic against them. The jotun giant-kings, confused and enraged, turned on one another, and the gods abandoned them, taking their magic away and handed it over to other races, causing the crumbling of jotun civilization. However, Elder Thruln and Priory scholars offer a different explanation for the jotun’s fall. They say that the jotun became too prideful and sought to make their own tribes superior, bringing the tribes into civil war out of their pride and greed. From this same pride and greed, the jotun are said to never marry outside of their tribe, and some Priory scholars mention that based on their ancient monuments, modern Jotun are far uglier than their ancient forebears as well.

Whichever story is more truthful, after the Exodus of the Gods, the jotun regained the ability to use magic in its less potent form. However, their lore-keepers, sages, and mystics had largely been killed off and the knowledge of using their old magic and technology became lost to them, leaving only the monuments and citadels behind as the race fell from power over the centuries."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jotun#History

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And no, the Charr were Nomadic Barbarians, same for the centaur. It’s a life, but it isn’t civilization. Building on cities on the scale of the humans didn’t occur until… well the humans. If it was not for the GUILD WARS, who knows where the lore would have went. However the GUILD WARS, set humanity into a downhill spiral. Your character in GW1 isn’t a Hero, he is an Antihero. He puts the world in danger and saves the world. Hell in Prophecies he/she does both! GW1 was obviously the last Golden Era** for humanity— and yet no matter where you go in Tyria, you run into HUMAN Ruins.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Guild_Wars

What are even going on about?

Many of the ruins ingame are not human. Have you even heard of the dwarves? Or even the asura? The humans were a plague on the inhabitants of tyria, just ask the centuar/charr/tengu/forgotten/mursaat. And don’t get me started on the human gods. I mean lol, ever heard of the crystal desert/desolation?

You were proven wrong before Justine. Human ruins are all throughout Tyria. They consist of a good majority of the ruins in the Caledon Forest, even the roads there are humans. All the ruins in Ascalon are that of humans. There are Dwarven and Human ruins in the Shiverpeaks… as for the Kryta (The Last Stronghold of Humanity in TYRIA)… ha.

Let’s not even get on about Elona, where humanity tamed the rivers themselves, built cities to rival that of any of the elder races. Or lordy, dare us to talk about the Grand continent of Cantha, where humanity truly reigned supreme.

Unless you completely ignore every single map in GW1 and go about absolutely blind to human ruins throughout Guild Wars 2, then there isn’t even room to argue about human superiority Pre and Post Exodus of the Gods. The Charr didn’t defeat humanity, the Titans did. And the Titans did it through the Charr, while the Gods were no longer watching. Imagine the Roman Empire as Ascalon and one day the Germanic Tribes (Charr) developed a Nuclear Bomb and honestly didn’t care where they used said bombs. That was the type of War between humanity and the charr, and without the power of the Titans the Charr would still be nomadic nobodies behind a wall talking about that never to arrive day where they would reclaim the lands of their ancestors.

Races in Tyria are absolutely Xenophobic. Humanity are/were Xenos. If they weren’t aggressive about their colonies, they would have been committed to Genocide. Take for example the Tengu in Cantha. Treaties were made and broken, over and over again by different Tengu tribes against the humans. At some point, humanity lost all confidence in the Tengu and started to perform massive cleansing sweeps of genocide against them. The Centaurs have always been extremely territorial, and not just towards humans. Even the Dwarves had issues with Centaurs long before humanity push into Centaur Country. Human in their Golden Age, simply put the stop to the Roaming Centaur tribes. Same can be said for the Charr.

You only own something for as long as you can hold onto it. Nothing, including land, is inherently yours if you lack the strength to keep it. The Jotun and Norn had their favor of the ‘Human Gods’ and the Jotun, at least, squandered the power they were granted. So entered humanity, which did, in fact, shove modern civilization down the throats of the barbarians in Tyria.

armaduras.8972:

You were proven wrong before Justine. Human ruins are all throughout Tyria. They consist of a good majority of the ruins in the Caledon Forest, even the roads there are humans. All the ruins in Ascalon are that of humans. There are Dwarven and Human ruins in the Shiverpeaks… as for the Kryta (The Last Stronghold of Humanity in TYRIA)… ha.

Let’s not even get on about Elona, where humanity tamed the rivers themselves, built cities to rival that of any of the elder races. Or lordy, dare us to talk about the Grand continent of Cantha, where humanity truly reigned supreme.

Unless you completely ignore every single map in GW1 and go about absolutely blind to human ruins throughout Guild Wars 2, then there isn’t even room to argue about human superiority Pre and Post Exodus of the Gods. The Charr didn’t defeat humanity, the Titans did. And the Titans did it through the Charr, while the Gods were no longer watching. Imagine the Roman Empire as Ascalon and one day the Germanic Tribes (Charr) developed a Nuclear Bomb and honestly didn’t care where they used said bombs. That was the type of War between humanity and the charr, and without the power of the Titans the Charr would still be nomadic nobodies behind a wall talking about that never to arrive day where they would reclaim the lands of their ancestors.

Races in Tyria are absolutely Xenophobic. Humanity are/were Xenos. If they weren’t aggressive about their colonies, they would have been committed to Genocide. Take for example the Tengu in Cantha. Treaties were made and broken, over and over again by different Tengu tribes against the humans. At some point, humanity lost all confidence in the Tengu and started to perform massive cleansing sweeps of genocide against them. The Centaurs have always been extremely territorial, and not just towards humans. Even the Dwarves had issues with Centaurs long before humanity push into Centaur Country. Human in their Golden Age, simply put the stop to the Roaming Centaur tribes. Same can be said for the Charr.

You only own something for as long as you can hold onto it. Nothing, including land, is inherently yours if you lack the strength to keep it. The Jotun and Norn had their favor of the ‘Human Gods’ and the Jotun, at least, squandered the power they were granted. So entered humanity, which did, in fact, shove modern civilization down the throats of the barbarians in Tyria.

No point in trying to debate someone whose position suggests that genocide is justified by “civilizing”.

Genocide is a valid response to Genocide. If you can’t make peace with a species/race on an Alien Planet and the survival of your species relies on you wiping them out.. then you wipe them out. If Humanity truly wanted to kill all the Charr, they wouldn’t have built the Great Northern Wall. What they would have done was simply keep sending full expeditions northward to cleanse the north of all Charr. The expansionist humans did indeed go North of the Great Northern Wall and form settlements, however, to call their expansion a genocide is simply not the case. As it’s explained rather well in Eye of the North, if the Seering never occured, then there would have probably been peace between the Charr and Ascalon.. and eventually humanity would have allowed the Charr to be intergrated into their society.

Humanity in GW2 is not a Xenophobic race. However, they did come to Tyria with a way of Governing and Building Kingdoms/Empires which Tyria had never seen before. This expansionism was efficient and the native Tyrians were barbarians, making the human settlement of the wilds extremely quick and unsettling to the native barbs. This caused races like the Charr, Centaurs, Hylek and Tengu to hate humanity from the start.

Humanity was outnumbered from the start.. and you know what? They flourished even being surrounded on all sides. Said flourishment wasn’t only caused by their favor of the gods. If there is one thing that Tyrians don’t like, it is change.. and Humanity is Change. Praise be to Balthazar.

I suspect the human gods turned up after the last time the dragons drank up all the magic. They don’t seem as powerful or capable as the dragons and that would tie in with them hiding.

My big question is still were the Charr, humans, asura or norn native or were they brought in by the dragons as cannon fodder in their wars with each other? This would put them on a similar footing to the Sylvari and several other humanoid species. It would tie in with the Jotun having their powers withdrawn by the gods for fighting each other rather than the dragon’s enemies.

There isn’t enough currently known about the Gods to know the extent of their power. Nor can it be concluded that the Dragon’s can best a God. You can not destroy the power/magic of the gods. However, my speculation from the lore is that they can bolster this power with other forms of power/magic.

Balthazar has/had an established war against his half-brother Menzie. GW1 ended without making clear who the victor would have been. As a Pantheon, Gods are not obligated to like one another either, which is another thing that the game lore doesn’t discuss.

Balthazar seems to be/ have been liked by the other four gods. His brother Menzies is an unknown factor altogether. After learning about Grenth’s story from GW2, coupled with my love for him in GW1— I have always speculated that he would be one of those Gods which after ascending from a Demigod to a full on God, would be harsh on his fellow Gods. Grenth, for example, would have to have a bumpy relationship with Lyssa since the two oppose each other morally. If Balthazar lost his powers to Menzies in their War and Menzies therefore collected Balthazars divine powers and became the new god of those aspects— then Grenth would automatically shun Balthazar. While a God like Lyssa or Melandru would support him in gaining his powers back.

There is also a chance that Balthazar/Menzies relationship is much like that of Thor/Loki or Perun/Veles. In that sense, it is hard for one to exist without the other and each would constantly be struggling to prove the invalidity of the other’s stances/morals.

The Gods are not native to Tyria as they were drawn here through the Mists. The Mist allows for traveling between worlds, much like in Norse Mythology how they travel between the 9 Worlds. It is not even know how much any of the gods actually care about Tyria (or each other like I stated earlier). The fight between Abbadon and his fellow Gods was massively destructive. Even the plans of Abbadon post-defeat were destructive in nature; I quote “Nightfall is revealed to be the release of the god Abaddon into the world of Tyria, changing the world as well into a place more like the Realm of Torment. As befits the name, areas affected by Nightfall become much darker, among other changes to the terrain.” https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nightfall_

For all intents and purposes, Tyria seems to be a Prison Planet and Celestial Playground. There is just too much going on on the planet for it to be stable. The planet isn’t stable at all— and it has far too many sentient species for it to be natural. Couple that with what has happened in just the last 1000 years— and then pile the rest of the planets history on top of that.. and you start to see what I am getting at.