Guild Wars 2

Just when I was beginning to hope the story writing abilities of the living story tem might FINALLY be maturing at long last and produce a story that was coherent, and enjorable, Flashpoint launches. Leaving aside the frankly AWFUL map which makes TD look easy to navigate, The story is poorly exectuted, chews continuity and is as lazier than most of my School English essays.
To sum up my problem, this reveal, that has been built up to all this living world season wasn’t worth the wait. It was a human god all along? Ok, with NO shadowing what so ever that the Gods were even present in Tyria any more, or any reason to suspect he would have spontaneously gone mad and decided to power grab. I’m sure someone at anet is really kittening happy with themselves that the resolution of this seaon, and why we’re not going to be fighting Primordus and Jormag next expansion is not only figuratively a deus ex machina, BUT IS LITERALLY, A BLOODY GOD, IN A BLOODY MACHINE!
Oh wonderful not only are the writing staff on this episode using the biggest crutch in writing as used by all writers lacking any/all of the following: imagination, motivation, time or competence. They have to rub our noses in it by making their deus ex machina, A DEUS EX MACHINA!
This is like those crappy movies where they try and make you laugh by being self aware that they suck.
The same logic I apply there can be applied here. Being aware you’re writing badly, does not suddenly make you a Booker Prize winner. But it does make you a fine example of of the Dunning-Kruger effect. So congratulations whoever came up with this plot twist, you’re not quite ENTIRELY clueless, because you KNOW you sucked.
Quite frankly, I refuse to have anything more to do with this episode, and by extension its map. I’ll be waiting the final episode to see if someone managed to figure out which one of the writer’s brains fell out and replace them.

Bathos.6341:

Just when I was beginning to hope the story writing abilities of the living story tem might FINALLY be maturing at long last and produce a story that was coherent, and enjorable, Flashpoint launches. Leaving aside the frankly AWFUL map which makes TD look easy to navigate, The story is poorly exectuted, chews continuity and is as lazier than most of my School English essays.
To sum up my problem, this reveal, that has been built up to all this living world season wasn’t worth the wait. It was a human god all along? Ok, with NO shadowing what so ever that the Gods were even present in Tyria any more, or any reason to suspect he would have spontaneously gone mad and decided to power grab. I’m sure someone at anet is really kittening happy with themselves that the resolution of this seaon, and why we’re not going to be fighting Primordus and Jormag next expansion is not only figuratively a deus ex machina, BUT IS LITERALLY, A BLOODY GOD, IN A BLOODY MACHINE!
Oh wonderful not only are the writing staff on this episode using the biggest crutch in writing as used by all writers lacking any/all of the following: imagination, motivation, time or competence. They have to rub our noses in it by making their deus ex machina, A DEUS EX MACHINA!
This is like those crappy movies where they try and make you laugh by being self aware that they suck.
The same logic I apply there can be applied here. Being aware you’re writing badly, does not suddenly make you a Booker Prize winner. But it does make you a fine example of of the Dunning-Kruger effect. So congratulations whoever came up with this plot twist, you’re not quite ENTIRELY clueless, because you KNOW you sucked.
Quite frankly, I refuse to have anything more to do with this episode, and by extension its map. I’ll be waiting the final episode to see if someone managed to figure out which one of the writer’s brains fell out and replace them.

It isnt so much of that that bothers me the ending left me confused in just wtf is going on he was in the machine doing what? and tami was like "ink’ made me feel like anet didnt even know what balt was even doing or trying to achieve was he trying to absorb prime’s magic? cuz tami said it would just primordus and jormag energy against each other. At what point did she say it would allow you to absorb magic? which he wasn’t able to do cuz we stop the mechine. I know that he was hoping to kill primordus to absore his magic at the point of his dead just didn’t seem like that is what he was doing.

This is why I hate Deus Ex machinas in stories, they don’t explain anything, they just drop in a random new element and hand break turn the plot into a new direction because they couldn’t think of a way to do change of direction for the plot that makes sense.

xXMapcoXx.9614:

It isnt so much of that that bothers me the ending left me confused in just wtf is going on he was in the machine doing what? and tami was like "ink’ made me feel like anet didnt even know what balt was even doing or trying to achieve was he trying to absorb prime’s magic? cuz tami said it would just primordus and jormag energy against each other. At what point did she say it would allow you to absorb magic? which he wasn’t able to do cuz we stop the mechine. I know that he was hoping to kill primordus to absore his magic at the point of his dead just didn’t seem like that is what he was doing.

I think he absorbed the dragons magic.

Why?
– Taimi finds out that putting the dragons energy against each other will blow up the world. The world didnt blew up. So energy was taken out of the equation.
– Balthy says, while in the machine, “I was weak, I feel the power now”. So he was increasing in power while sitting between the energies of the two elder dragons.
– By the end, there are a few, “energy left overs” flowing around for you to catch .

So, I think what goes on is Balthy was weakened, A LOT.
He sees the opportunity to absorb the magic in the bloodstone the cultists are medling with, so he steps in. But he is still week and need more. So he sees the opportunity to use us to get the elder dragons consumed magic.
Now he absorbed energy from one bloodstone and 2 elder dragons (to the point where they go nap time again). Why? What is he going to do with it and why was he weak in the first place?

I pretty much disagree with everything the OP stated. I guess we just all have different opinions. I, along with many people I know, believe this is the best living story episode and map so far. I also like that there are many unanswered questions waiting to be potentially revealed in the next episode.

The big reveal was pretty lame, any explanations that come later will just feel bolted on at this point. But the map itself is awesome, being vine spiderman in a jungle volcano works for me. overall I love this episode.

We have defeated two dragons through two similar stories. I think we needed the story against the next dragon to exist on another more grand level. If that means a literal god among gods, then putting that god in a machine is less funny than our PC explaining themselves to Taimi. “It said” ‘eat me’, I said.

I don’t think the story of us casually helping Taimi develop an obvious doomsday weapon was strong enough to build a space for B.

If I may,
Right away, Taimi tells us the weapon is more of a world destroying bomb than a weapon to end all dragons.
We come to gripes with our casual cooperation. Why all the secrecy?
When B arrives even humans would have to get in his way, and would eventually say,
“WOW! B! that will blow up Tyria!”
B “Shmyria”
That scene would energize the journey through the zone. We would have made those spirits cooperate.
There are so many things B could have said during the final battle besides mumbling and Shmyria.

I agree OP, this chapter sucked. The plot just went way too fast.

You have a monumental reveal of the God of War with NO build-up?! No foreshadowing? Not even of the gods existence? Just…poof! In a run-of-the-mill, freakin’ asura lab? IMO, at least, Balthazar should’ve been revealed at the end of this chapter to hype up the final chapter or revealed at the end of the final to hype up the expansion.

To top it off, the ending was worse. Just pure confusion. Is Primordius asleep? WTF happened to Balthazar? Why does he need a machine? And mercenaries! Is he weakened?! I’m just dazed and confused about the story as I’m fighting Balthazar’s pups and Taimi just keeps screeching in my ear.

This chapter just puts even more pressure on the final chapter to attempt to explain and salvage what the hell happened in this one. How is ANet going to explain all this?

I 100% enjoyed the story and love the new map. Really appreciate how Anet is moving the story along and for all the continued support and effort that is being put into the GW franchise. Thanks ArenaNet!

Behind the scenes at Anet:
Anet Writers: So how do you want your game story?
Anet Directors: Just kitten our entire game up even further.
Anet Writers: Say no more.

It’s dues ex machina if it ends now. But the story didn’t end now, there’s still more living story season 3 and a new expansion to go. The leaks from the expansion seem to indicate that the things that happened during this episode probably made things worse, and kittened off someone else entirely.

Hesacon.8735:

It’s dues ex machina if it ends now. But the story didn’t end now, there’s still more living story season 3 and a new expansion to go.

I think you don’t understand what deus ex machina is.

“The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.”

There were 2 active elder dragons, there was Taimi’s machine, 2 dragons were disabled. It doesn’t matter if in expansion 7 Primordus will wake up, cause we already had that abrupt resolution of “zomg we have to deal with two active elder dragons at once” LS3 plot. Primordus waking up will be new, separate plot.
So that was one of the most canonical deus ex machina after the greek dramaturgy. Because it had literally a god in a machine.

Who ever was lazarus it would make little sense at first because we had no leads to who he might be. Lazarus was using divine fire which iirc is magic only gods can use. Who ever ended up being with proper explanation later it will make sense be a god an undead lich or an elder dragon so ye calm your tits ppl

Ider.1276:

Hesacon.8735:

It’s dues ex machina if it ends now. But the story didn’t end now, there’s still more living story season 3 and a new expansion to go.

I think you don’t understand what deus ex machina is.

“The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.”

There were 2 active elder dragons, there was Taimi’s machine, 2 dragons were disabled. It doesn’t matter if in expansion 7 Primordus will wake up, cause we already had that abrupt resolution of “zomg we have to deal with two active elder dragons at once” LS3 plot. Primordus waking up will be new, separate plot.
So that was one of the most canonical deus ex machina after the greek dramaturgy. Because it had literally a god in a machine.

Which assumes that we actually solved any problems here. If you look at the leaks for the next expansion you’d know that Kralkatorrik wakes up and is quite kittened, probably caused by the events of _this_ episode. You can call it dues ex machina, but really it’s making other problems worse.

Primordus wasn’t exactly putting up much of a fight in this episode. Neither he nor Jormag destroyed a city. Both Zhaitan and Mordremoth destroyed Lion’s Arch, among other things. These two were in serious need of coffee. Not exactly threatening other than a couple minions near their home base. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were running amuck all over Tyria before we even saw them.

Using Taimi’s machine was literally deus ex machina. It’s gone now. We also don’t have the foggiest idea what happened to Balthazar.

Let the story play out.

Agree, the whole end of the story was a complete waste of potential. While it was cool to see an elder dragon, the buildup was a little bit measly. And the Idea that Jormag and Primordus are just asleep again and everything is fine feels extremely cheap/inconsequential.
TBH i found the deus ex machina stuff kinda hilarious in a trashy way.

But i have to disagree on the new map, but maybe thats personal taste. While I believe that one or two more waypoints would be nice I like that kind of map. And i find this map mostly beautiful, albeit a little bit sloppy designed..(speaking of details and stuff..)

Hesacon.8735:

Which assumes that we actually solved any problems here. If you look at the leaks for the next expansion you’d know that Kralkatorrik wakes up and is quite kittened, probably caused by the events of _this_ episode. You can call it dues ex machina, but really it’s making other problems worse.

Primordus wasn’t exactly putting up much of a fight in this episode. Neither he nor Jormag destroyed a city. Both Zhaitan and Mordremoth destroyed Lion’s Arch, among other things. These two were in serious need of coffee. Not exactly threatening other than a couple minions near their home base. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were running amuck all over Tyria before we even saw them.

Using Taimi’s machine was literally deus ex machina. It’s gone now. We also don’t have the foggiest idea what happened to Balthazar.

Let the story play out.

I doubt we will se Kralkatiric in expansion 2. As people noticed, amount of branded (purple) terrain on new maps is very low.
Considering “let the story play out”. For 4 episodes (8 month) the story was building up Lazarus, Primordus and Jormag. That trio was dormant for hundredes of years. They did almost nothing prior LS3, just were somewhere there. First 4 episodes made them “active”. And for what purpous? Just so in episode 5 they can be put down into pre LS3 state. That makes those 4 episodes totally pointless. At this point you can cross them out and the story will lose nothing: Lazarus will be dead/MiA, Primordus and Jormag are not a threat.
So, after such wonderfull letting the story play, how can I (or anyone) be sure that Balthazar is not such a pointless waste of time? A mere segway for us to Elona, were in chapter 1 of personal story he will be tossed into the mists by deus ex Taimi?

The fight was great, at least the atmosphere. Too easy though but with no bugs.

Story wise I don’t know. If course it’s cool to see Primordus but to introduce another character to the roster and make it more complicated is a bit annoying although it is Balthazar. What does this mean? I mean a lot of the professions worship Balthazar as their god of war – all warriors for example. This should have a lot of influence in the future. Or they make whatever it is necessary to ‘undo’ it. We’ll see…

Anet spent so much time building up Lazarus and the White Mantle, only to throw them away at the climax and introduce, without build up, Balzathar and a new fallen god subplot.

I’m enjoying the story, but I agree it’s spotty. The white mantle plot should have had a satisfying resolution, and the Balthazar plot should have been its own Living Season.

But the story hasn’t ended yet, so we’ll see what Anert will do with episode 6. Hopefully, the final resolution will feel satisfying and not something completely random.

Fallen god? Who knows that he’s fallen? If with fallen you mean exiled from the other gods we don’t really know if the others helped him or not (the mirror is the key of my logic. It implies another god intervention or at least a fight amongst them where balthazar stealed it from Lyssa.) Once we arrived in Dracons mons i thought that the whispered voice was Grenth (i was playing human necro worshipping grenth first time i went there) impling a conflict among the gods. Now after what balthazar said about “i don’t care about your home” i think the gods are all at war against something that is consuming the mists/all the existing worlds (tirya is just one of countless worlds). Something even deadlier than the dragons.

Well, I’m trying to make some sense of it all, and I can see it makes no sense at all…and I was stuck in the middle with Taimi all through that last instance.

And now that song’s running through your head too, isn’t it?

I’ve seen this a few times and I have to disagree.

While there was a god in a machine in the story – meaning there was a literal deus ex machina there – the writers DID NOT use the term in its literary sense (the one we thing of when providing criticisms of movie/books/etc). I think that has confused some people.

In a literary sense, Deus Ex Machina refers to divine intervention to the benefit of the protagonist (in this case, us). A god literally reaches down out of the heavens to save us or bring the story to a happy ending just as things seemed absolutely impossible. In Ancient Greek plays, actors portraying gods would hang from wires above the stage (the wires being the “machine”) – and, just as the story resolution seemed impossible, they would proclaim their intervention and save the heroes. It was used – at least in part – to show both the divine benevolence and ultimate power the gods possessed. That is where the term comes from. In modern usage, it refers to any situation where a being with ultimate power intervened in a similar way to resolve a story line that, otherwise, would have been impossible to resolve.

And that isn’t what happened here. We were fighting against the god – and through force of will and innovation – came out the victor (for now).

Yes, the machine put the dragons to sleep (for a short time, most likely), but that was a secondary point – and the dragons definitely didn’t present an unassailable challenge for us (we’ve beaten two already) – and the god in question definitely wasn’t intervening on our behalf.

And I think the story was well formed and interesting, which is really the important part.

So, in the literary sense of the term, this was not deus ex machina, despite one being present in a literal sense as part of the story (hope that makes sense).

Ider.1276:

Hesacon.8735:

It’s dues ex machina if it ends now. But the story didn’t end now, there’s still more living story season 3 and a new expansion to go.

I think you don’t understand what deus ex machina is.

“The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.”

There were 2 active elder dragons, there was Taimi’s machine, 2 dragons were disabled. It doesn’t matter if in expansion 7 Primordus will wake up, cause we already had that abrupt resolution of “zomg we have to deal with two active elder dragons at once” LS3 plot. Primordus waking up will be new, separate plot.
So that was one of the most canonical deus ex machina after the greek dramaturgy. Because it had literally a god in a machine.

Deus Ex Machina does not literally mean god in a machine. The Literal Latin translation is a Machine from or of the Gods. In this sense the story did indeed have a Deus Ex Machina a very literal one in Omadds now changed god toy. Granted said device was blown up.

However, if you do away with the “Literal” interpretation of the word and go with the Literary trope Deus Ex Machina then your above statement is correct. Either way the writing in chapters 4 & 5 were extremely rushed and would have been received better if spread out over 2 additional chapters each bringing the total number of episodes this season to 8 instead of 6. Even if they didn’t want to do a full episode a current event the scale of Traheane’s memorial to give us the appropriate background would also have sufficed.

Blaeys.3102:

In a literary sense, Deus Ex Machina refers to divine intervention to the benefit of the protagonist (in this case, us). A god literally reaches down out of the heavens to save us or bring the story to a happy ending just as things seemed absolutely impossible.

1) A god stopping the advancement of Primordus isnt divine intervention ? How about said god absorbing a bloodstone magic barrage that would have annihilated most of tyria (according to episode 1) ?

2) No where in the trope of Deus Ex Machina is it required for the ending to be remotely happy. Deus Ex Machina can quite literally be used for any purposes that change a per-ordained plot-point or story destination. In this case instead of having the two dragons energies nullify each other we have said god now intervening and absorbing the energy.

TexZero.7910:

1) A god stopping the advancement of Primordus isnt divine intervention ? How about said god absorbing a bloodstone magic barrage that would have annihilated most of tyria (according to episode 1) ?

2) No where in the trope of Deus Ex Machina is it required for the ending to be remotely happy. Deus Ex Machina can quite literally be used for any purposes that change a per-ordained plot-point or story destination. In this case instead of having the two dragons energies nullify each other we have said god now intervening and absorbing the energy.

1) in the way the plot was already unfolding we would be able to deal with primordus by ourself without the gods intervention – actually mentioned intervention only complicated whole thing

as for bloodstone explosion – while indeed explosion being reversed at a point quite a bit of chunk of our backs have been saved – but then I do not recall anyone complaining when we thought the whole thing was doing of lazarus the dire….

2) so two dragons energies are nullifying each other in a way that makes eternal alchemy go kaboom – but the first thing that comes to mind to someone who was paying attention to what was going on throught the last few story establishments is that we do not need to even pit them against each other as long as we manage to kill them off throught other means – and let the Tarir do what it was designed to do – allowing our little cute baby dragon to absorb those energies and grow into good dragon of everythign that will make sure everything works good and nice in tyria

god intervening and absorbing huge chunks of those energies does not even remotely help, and we are yet to find out even why he decided to do so.

what sort of sickens me in this whole situation is that seemingly everyone who bothers to write in this forum does not pay even remotely enougth attention to actuall story unfolding only to then jump to bashing it because something didn’t play out the way they expected and nearly no one actually putting an effort to try to decipher writer’s intentions about meaning of all of this…..

Lord Trejgon.2809:

what sort of sickens me in this whole situation is that seemingly everyone who bothers to write in this forum does not pay even remotely enougth attention to actuall story unfolding only to then jump to bashing it because something didn’t play out the way they expected and nearly no one actually putting an effort to try to decipher writer’s intentions about meaning of all of this…..

This.

The amount of missunderstanding and complaining can most often be attributed to people not knowing the most basic lore of GW. I will add though that this is in part also arenanets fault since not every player has played GW1 or been involved in its story throughout the entire process.

Persoanlly I love the new direction the story has taken (in my opinion away from the dragon threat towards a more GW1 esque scenario where the gods and the mysts become more important). I understand how some newer players might feel about the story resolution and I wish arenanet had placed some more pointers here and there (I’m still advocating some kind of lore book which players should be able to flip through and read up on GW lore ingame without having to run ti the wiki every 5 minutes).

I think it’s very clear that arenanet are trying to build more and more bridges between GW2 and 1 lore and story wise, which I am all for.

@OP: +1, I couldn’t agree more to every single thing you wrote (except that I kind of like the map, it has grown on me)… but had it been me voicing my opinion like that, you could be sure the post would have been deleted in no time.

P.S. LOL @ “deus ex machina”, best pun so far describing this monstrosity!

Cyninja.2954:

Persoanlly I love the new direction the story has taken (in my opinion away from the dragon threat towards a more GW1 esque scenario

It would have been great, had it been done differently. The OP is right to call it sloppy/“brainless” writing.

Ashantara.8731:

@OP: +1, I couldn’t agree more to every single thing you wrote (except that I kind of like the map, it has grown on me)… but had it been me voicing my opinion like that, you could be sure the post would have been deleted in no time.

P.S. LOL @ “deus ex machina”, best pun so far describing this monstrosity!

Cyninja.2954:

Persoanlly I love the new direction the story has taken (in my opinion away from the dragon threat towards a more GW1 esque scenario

It would have been great, had it been done differently. The OP is right to call it sloppy/“brainless” writing.

That’s the problem with writing, if some enjoy it or not is subjective. Especially when it’s constricted by format.

It’s silly to argue over subjective things though. You agree with the OP, others (like myself) do not. No amount of arguing is going to change someones mind on this subjective matter.

TexZero.7910:

1) A god stopping the advancement of Primordus isnt divine intervention ? How about said god absorbing a bloodstone magic barrage that would have annihilated most of tyria (according to episode 1) ?

2) No where in the trope of Deus Ex Machina is it required for the ending to be remotely happy. Deus Ex Machina can quite literally be used for any purposes that change a per-ordained plot-point or story destination. In this case instead of having the two dragons energies nullify each other we have said god now intervening and absorbing the energy.

The conflict here wasnt to stop Primordus, but rather to stop Balthazar. No divine power aided us in completing that task – ergo, this does not fall under the Deus Ex Machina trope.

You are right that the story doesn’t have to have a happy ending for the term to apply, but again, the trope doesnt apply here. For one, again, the antagonist here was Balthazar – second, even two dragons do not represent an unassailable obstacle (we’ve defeated dragons before) – and third, the dragons werent defeated – their threat was simply delayed (probably very slightly).

As to whether or not this chapter is just bad writing or not, that is an entirely different topic. Personally, I enjoyed it. The plot felt a little rushed, but it made sense and added tension to the game. On top of that, there was some well woven humor in the dialogue – Taimi’s communications when we reveal our “ghost friends” and Phlunt’s wordplay (which required having NPC text turned on to catch) particularly.

I think people want to throw the Deus Ex Machina label on this because they are confused by the literal god + machine element in the story. Again, this was not Deus Ex Machina in a literary sense.

There are some technical criteria you can use to make more objective evaluation of writting. The “not foreshadowed, not relevant, hastily presented plot twist”, for example, would be without any doubt classified as bad writing by any serious, objective and detached professional critic. Its just that bad.
The rest can be argued about, but the literal deux ex machina twist was really bad.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say the LW lost credibility. If anything I’d say it was just misrepresented. Going back to the initial announcement Flashpoint was billed as this penultimate episode where all the major questions will be answered. It may have answered the biggest question regarding Lazarus but, for me, I walked away with even more questions than I had going in. Its perfectly understandable that every episode is going to have cliffhangers and if they were going to have Flashpoint be the setup for the epic season finale that’d be great but it wasn’t billed as such. Now don’t get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode (though I wasn’t quite as blown away by the final battle as most everyone else seems to be).

We still don’t know who else is involved beyond Balthazar. We don’t have a clear motive as to the why. We still don’t know what’s happening on the other front with Jormag and/or Braham. We don’t fully know what Kasmeer was doing in her absence. Rytlock’s powers are still a mystery, as is his forced return to the Citadel. Are the Druid’s going to play a bigger role moving forward? How will the Humans cope with their God’s betrayal?

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

1) A god stopping the advancement of Primordus isnt divine intervention ? How about said god absorbing a bloodstone magic barrage that would have annihilated most of tyria (according to episode 1) ?

2) No where in the trope of Deus Ex Machina is it required for the ending to be remotely happy. Deus Ex Machina can quite literally be used for any purposes that change a per-ordained plot-point or story destination. In this case instead of having the two dragons energies nullify each other we have said god now intervening and absorbing the energy.

The conflict here wasnt to stop Primordus, but rather to stop Balthazar. No divine power aided us in completing that task – ergo, this does not fall under the Deus Ex Machina trope.

You are right that the story doesn’t have to have a happy ending for the term to apply, but again, the trope doesnt apply here. For one, again, the antagonist here was Balthazar – second, even two dragons do not represent an unassailable obstacle (we’ve defeated dragons before) – and third, the dragons werent defeated – their threat was simply delayed (probably very slightly).

As to whether or not this chapter is just bad writing or not, that is an entirely different topic. Personally, I enjoyed it. The plot felt a little rushed, but it made sense and added tension to the game. On top of that, there was some well woven humor in the dialogue – Taimi’s communications when we reveal our “ghost friends” and Phlunt’s wordplay (which required having NPC text turned on to catch) particularly.

I think people want to throw the Deus Ex Machina label on this because they are confused by the literal god + machine element in the story. Again, this was not Deus Ex Machina in a literary sense.

Perspective differences. Our initial goal was indeed to halt or before the knowledge of taimi have primordous and jormag destroy each other. To that end a god did indeed intervene with a resolution to that conflict. It did however open up a new can of worms, which is often seen when a deus ex machina is presented. The best analogy one can make here is they did the whole shounen villian of the day, only the original big bads just weren’t bad enough so we introduced your sensei who was actually evil all along, also a god. (Sounds familiar if you watched DBZ or Sailor Moon as a kid)

Agreed

Don’t worry to much about the people bashing your position TC its typically the same people who bash everything. More importantly these forums lack a number of basic features to promote a healthy community such as the ability to see the number of likes on a post or comment by the community. Oh also I gave you a +1 though no one will see it…

Truth be told this is a older complaint brought up many times and the issues you see with the story some may actually see as a step in the right direction.

Simply put the only issue with your topic is that you seem to think the living story has lost all credibility from this one story segment. This story segment is actually a correction because…

How did Scarlet learn of Mordremoth – Omadd's Machine
How did we learn of the Dragons – Omadds Machine
How did Taimi find Prim/Jormags weakness – Omadds Machine
How were we going to beat both dragons – Omadds Machine [/spoiler] How did [spoiler]Balth get his groove back – Omadds Machine

The complaints have been going for a good while now and in the story Tiami states she cannot build another Omadd's Machine and there is even a slight joke to the players from the devs that the machine may have survived the ordeal before its finally destroyed. It’s been destroyed and its stated it cannot come back. For the same reason Kasmeer being absent for most of the season would have ended it they got rid of Omadds machine. The plot destroyer is no more however speaking of complaints of the same nature Kasmeer, Asura, and the Mists all present the same issue.

As for living story and credibility that’s all fell to pieces with season 1 or rather the lack of season 1. People on these forums will all go about how hard it would be to bring it back but that’s not even a debate point. It’s whether its harmful for new players to have that black hole. Everyone including the devs themselves are either funneling everyone to watch that 3hour fan made video on youtube, trying to get more season 1 inspired fractals , or asking the video included in the game that only goes over Scarlett be tweaked to include the character introductions and some backstory for everyone on your team.

Basic point the issue about deus machina and the story post core as a whole are all things brought up and discussed at length well before this recent entry. What this current entry in the story does is make it harder for them to fall back into the hole by destroying and reaffirming the none repair of a bad plot device. Taimi was speaking for all Asura in a sort of fourth wall deal to the player however how they handle Rhytlock and the mists moving forward could mean all of that was for nothing.

Oh and for people who think any of this will matter for the next expansion I just don’t see it. Leaks or not we already have a reason to go to that area just like we already have a reason to jump into the ocean. The Dragons themselves are an issue because it doesn’t matter what happens in the story because its all to the doom and gloom drumbeat of stopping the dragons. Scarlet, Caudecus, and this new guy are great and all but the whole Dragon story arc hangs over all of it because if you don’t stop the dragons everyone is gonna die.

TexZero.7910:

Perspective differences. Our initial goal was indeed to halt or before the knowledge of taimi have primordous and jormag destroy each other. To that end a god did indeed intervene with a resolution to that conflict. It did however open up a new can of worms, which is often seen when a deus ex machina is presented. The best analogy one can make here is they did the whole shounen villian of the day, only the original big bads just weren’t bad enough so we introduced your sensei who was actually evil all along, also a god. (Sounds familiar if you watched DBZ or Sailor Moon as a kid)

We definitely would have different perspectives. I was well past childhood by the time DBZ or Sailor Moon would have aired.

I’m not saying the current story is perfect or that everyone has to like it (of course they don’t) – just that the concept of Deus Ex Machina in its literary meaning (versus its literal one) doesn’t apply here. The god didnt intervene with a solution – he came up with a way to to destroy the world – which we then stopped. The side effect was a TEMPORARY delay to the dragon threat.

And its worth mentioning that (even though again it wasnt used here) even something like the literary device Deus Ex Machina can still be used to effect in storytelling provided it is still done in a fun and creative way. It isn’t necessarily a bad thing (even though most authors use it in bad ways). A good story is a good story because it is entertaining.

Cyninja.2954:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

what sort of sickens me in this whole situation is that seemingly everyone who bothers to write in this forum does not pay even remotely enougth attention to actuall story unfolding only to then jump to bashing it because something didn’t play out the way they expected and nearly no one actually putting an effort to try to decipher writer’s intentions about meaning of all of this…..

This.

The amount of missunderstanding and complaining can most often be attributed to people not knowing the most basic lore of GW. I will add though that this is in part also arenanets fault since not every player has played GW1 or been involved in its story throughout the entire process.

Persoanlly I love the new direction the story has taken (in my opinion away from the dragon threat towards a more GW1 esque scenario where the gods and the mysts become more important). I understand how some newer players might feel about the story resolution and I wish arenanet had placed some more pointers here and there (I’m still advocating some kind of lore book which players should be able to flip through and read up on GW lore ingame without having to run ti the wiki every 5 minutes).

I think it’s very clear that arenanet are trying to build more and more bridges between GW2 and 1 lore and story wise, which I am all for.

The story needed to evolve and with the appearance of B, it has. Hopefully, the story will be about a broader competition for magic within a broader environment for magic.

Lore books are stale. We have the Priory, Asuran labs, etc; give us scholars and teachers instead.

IMO it is possible the term “Deux ex Machina” is not the more precisely, canonically correct. What’s the word we should use to describe that ill staged, sudden, annoying Lazarus Mystery/Balthazar Reveal?

Ardid.7203:

IMO it is possible the term “Deux ex Machina” is not the more precisely, canonically correct. What’s the word we should use to describe that ill staged, sudden, annoying Lazarus Mystery/Balthazar Reveal?

If a literary term/trope needs to be applied, it would be called a plot twist – simple as that.

Some like it. Others do not. That is the nature of any artistic endeavor.

The story telling in GW2 is the swiss cheese of plot holes and has more plot crutches than Carter had liver pills (you other old folks know that one).

As bad as this episode was, its the repetitive nature of smart-tucas Taimi constantly having some new technobauble that she just whips up that we have to deal with. Its gone way past annoying.

The lame excuses for Dragon Watch guild mates to be absent makes me wonder why they went to the trouble to force us in it.

About the only good thing, is that its not surprising to just how bad it can get.

I like how people keep throwing the term “deus ex machina” around without realizing what they think it means is not what it really means.

Vesuvius.9874:

I like how people keep throwing the term “deus ex machina” around without realizing what they think it means is not what it really means.

You mean like:

1: a god introduced by means of a crane (see 1crane 3a) in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome

2: a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty
… the shipwreck, far from being a tragic peripety, is the deus ex machina which makes it possible for Defoe to present solitary labour … as a solution to the perplexities of economic and social reality. — Ian Watt

☺ ☺ ☺ ☺ ☺

I love Google lol

TexZero.7910:

Deus Ex Machina does not literally mean god in a machine. The Literal Latin translation is a Machine from or of the Gods.

Other way around. God from outside the system. Machine of the gods would be machina deorum, I believe.

Balthazar was more of a deus in machina.

Ardid.7203:

IMO it is possible the term “Deux ex Machina” is not the more precisely, canonically correct. What’s the word we should use to describe that ill staged, sudden, annoying Lazarus Mystery/Balthazar Reveal?

Simple, a bad plot twist. A curve ball.

This is one reason I’m not a fan of “plot twists” in entertainment. I was enjoying season 3 until this chapter when it just went for shock value. No suspense. No explanation. LIke it’s supposed to ‘impress me’. The sudden Balthazar twist just killed the Lazarus plot in its tracks. Nothing but a “Gotcha!” to the audience. His return was pretty underwhelming, imo. Of all the places to debut one of the human gods…an asura lab?!

I’m not even against Balthazar coming back, but….not like this….Ah well, what’s done is done. I wonder how the next chapter will attempt to explain this.

JTGuevara.9018:

This is one reason I’m not a fan of “plot twists” in entertainment. I was enjoying season 3 until this chapter when it just went for shock value. No suspense. No explanation. LIke it’s supposed to ‘impress me’. The sudden Balthazar twist just killed the Lazarus plot in its tracks. Nothing but a “Gotcha!” to the audience. His return was pretty underwhelming, imo. Of all the places to debut one of the human gods…an asura lab?!

I’m not even against Balthazar coming back, but….not like this….Ah well, what’s done is done. I wonder how the next chapter will attempt to explain this.

Not just Lazarus plot was killed. Almost all season 3 buildup was just obliterated by Ep5 (though the whole episode, not just Balthazar reveal). Lazarus plot, active Jormag and Primordus – Anet were building these things from season begining. And now they are just a mirage, poofed in smoke without any climax, as relevant to Tiria’s world as that flying mage’s tower in Kessex Hills.
I’m just depressed now. In 2 months we will have season finale, and in half a year a new expansion, and I want to care about the story and get hyped… but I can’t. Human gods, Balthazar, big stuff, I should be exited. But the buildup was so poor (and none-existent prior to Ep5) that I just couldn’t care even if I wanted to. No, buildup is a wrong word for that. Anti-buildup (or build-down maybe?) is a right one, cause Ep5 story twists destroyed all the plots that were carefully created during previous 4 episodes.

I initially hated the map when I first got there, but after running it with another toon and taking my time to explore I actually found this map to be fun and WAY better than TD. That map is just trash. That said, I have a lot of misgivings about the story and specifically Taimi being this perfect little master key they like to turn whenever they need to push the story along. Its lazy writing and compared to the richness of the GW1 lore and world it just makes me sad.

Basically we have our technobabble, a specific form of deus ex machina using science/technology (though some argue technomagic should also fit) to move the plot.

The biggest problem I have is what they call the DBZ effect or dragon ball effect, where animeesque villians become more powerful with every inception and the next thing is as rediculasly over the top as the last.

GW2 suffers from this alot right now, the biggest issue is that your making us fight a DEITY after fighting dragons, whats next? The Cosmic essense of creation itself?

This kind of thing invalidates the value of such forces. It makes gods look weak because they suddenly become killable. Part of the reason a god is so great is that they “cant” die in the first place.

I will say this, GW2 has always felt like Fan-fiction over-all with only Season 2 ever showing any real talent for making that fiction its own. Season 3 has started well but got progressivly worse over time. Theres no denying, the writing has just become a cluster kitten of bad decision and poor forethought. Its like trying to make people surprised at a plot twist ANYONE could have seen comming for miles.

Its like the season 1 thing with Scarlet, “Spoiler” Scarlet did all the things, Toxic Alliance/Molten Alliance/Aether Alliance everything. We KNEW this, it was NOT surpising NOR good writing it was blatantly OBVIOUS what was comming up. You were treating your audience like complete idiots and that isnt healthy for them or for you.

IF I was A-net right now this is the things id do to move the story forwards positively for once:

The Death of Dragons Watch/Destinies Edge:

While I dont think we need a character genocide I think we need closure, the next expansion needs to END the dragons watch and allow us to move ON, meet NEW characters on NEW adventures on our PERSONAL journey of self growth. Yes we can occasionally meet members of DE and DW from time to time but we should not spend our entire lifetime as the commander being involved with them.
Its time to end a good thing while its still on its declining high rather than becomming completely stale. Allowing us to finish Krally off and then going our seperate ways allows the commander to go on NEW adventures that are truly PERSONAL and a case of finding ones self.

If the Dragons are out, then kill them, dont just knock them out:

Commit to the genocide of these Elder Dragons, let us fight something else, let us take on something FAR more interesting with personality, depth and actual goals. Lazarus was so promising and this fake lazarus is actually balthazar stuff just RUINED that for me personally. You had SO much potential for this guy to double-cross us or even NOT double-cross us and just surprise us entirely by helping us fight the gods as Lazarus the Dire not some fake.

The plot twist was also too quick and forced, much like the entirety of episode 5, too many things happen at once which essentially removes any point in them being a problem in the first place. Jormag is asleep, Primrodus is asleep, this literally eliminates both as a threat for good. So whats the next threat?

Take us beyond Tyria, but not just to Cantha/Elona but to unfamiliar continents:

Post Expansion 2 and Season 3 should focus heavily on discovery, new things, the discovery of things we have NEVER seen before and peoples we have never MET in our existance. Peoples with their own personal problems, a humbler expansion with just as much threat and evil could be more interesting, it worked for a certain other MMO a few years ago that involved pandas so it could easily work for GW2.

The “imposter” idea was only just revealed at the end of the last episode. It may be three months for us, but it’s not 3 months for the characters in the story.

We’re in the middle of a serial, not at the end of it. It wasn’t built up with foreshadowing because it’s not a mystery in the first place.

Far more important, I think, is the idea that we might not be able to safely kill any more elder dragons. That’s far more of a plot twist and it’s had plenty of foreshadowing.

@JTGuevara, @Ider, @CaptainVanguard: Thank you so much for your posts! They expressed perfectly what is in my heart regarding the current season and GW2’s development in general.

Let me quote my favorite paragraph as a plea to the devs:

Post Expansion 2 and Season 3 should focus heavily on discovery, new things, the discovery of things we have NEVER seen before and peoples we have never MET in our existance. Peoples with their own personal problems, a humbler expansion with just as much threat and evil could be more interesting, it worked for a certain other MMO a few years ago that involved pandas so it could easily work for GW2.

Vayne.8563:

The “imposter” idea was only just revealed at the end of the last episode. It may be three months for us, but it’s not 3 months for the characters in the story.

We’re in the middle of a serial, not at the end of it. It wasn’t built up with foreshadowing because it’s not a mystery in the first place.

Agreed. The question is
WHAT the kitten WAS it, then?!
Its like they wanted to write something bad just for the sake of doing it.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/flashpoint-on-guild-chat-a-summary/

Poor Aaron Roxby, he looks overworked (like all the people I’ve ever seen on GW2 Guild Chat) and must be devastated over our reactions on here, which pretty much sum up to: “Sorry Aaron, but your original intentions aside, you failed in what you tried to achieve.”

Ashantara.8731:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/flashpoint-on-guild-chat-a-summary/

Poor Aaron Roxby, he looks overworked (like all the people I’ve ever seen on GW2 Guild Chat) and must be devastated over our reactions on here, which pretty much sum up to: “Sorry Aaron, but your original intentions aside, you failed in what you tried to achieve.”

So he’s the one to blame for this farce of a season?(and whichever corporate overlords thats been meddling no doubt) He certainly hasn’t done anything make me think he’s competent at his job going by what I’ve seen so far.

I rather like the idea of revisiting the most primal forces of Tyria from the first game, and TBH when the initial stuff about GW2 started coming out I was filled with disappointment that they just took all of that interesting lore about the origina of the gods, mursaaat, seers, etc. off the table and replaced them with the laziest of fantasy tropes; Dragons. Glint was interesting in GW1 because, like the few other dragons in the universe at the time, she was a rarity and had a story function other than “evil monster that wants to destroy it all”

Then they got started on GW2 and decided that, yeah, in stead of the interesting questions regarding the nature of the mists, the mysterious war between the mursaat and seers, and all of these other fresh ideas they’d just add a variety flavor pack of godzillas and call it a day.

However!

The Dragon narrative exists. Arenanet created it. It has been running for two expansions now. It needs to be resolved. As much as I want to explore the nature of the human gods, seers, mursaat, and all that interesting stuff, simply tossing balthazar back in the mix in a role other than involvement in actually resolving that plot just needlessly drops a plot thread.

I want to see the dragon narrative resolved. You could have EASILY resolved it THIS season by using the silly machine to nuke two dragons, causing some genuinely interesting personal tension between DW and Braham, and leveraging Aurene as an expedient method (having absorbed a large portion of dragon energy) to help us take out Kralk, siege kralk’s power, then go offscreen to go take on bubbles herself.

At this point you cleanly sidestep the issue of the deep sea dragon, thus not subjecting us to the horrors of a failed underwater combat revamp, and you can leave aurene as a hanging thread only to re-emerge later much older and wiser with real earned loyalty to the players, and having earned respect from Tyria the same way Glint held respect in GW1 , only as a Protector and Warrior rather than a Seer.

This would mean you effectively have the Dragon plotline cleanly tied up next expansion, and do so in a satisfying manner that lets us ride around on a dragon. And there THERE is where it would be appropriate to start addressing these primal cosmic forces, after having given us a believable ally against them in the form of Aurene, the “World Dragon” that possesses the immense power gained from all other dragons (possibly kept from exploding the world through devices crafted by The Pact, giving us a nice symbiotic relationship and having Aurene rely on us as much as we do on her)

Or have us make a pact WITH the remaining dragons somehow, using aurene as an intermediary THIS EXPANSION.

In stead we got what appears to be either a rogue god, or a civil war between the gods, while still backburnering the dragon plot.

I know there’s a dragon on the 2 and everything but come on. “Massive evil monster who just wants to destroy everything” is a boring villain. Having to slog through that same villain in difference ice cream flavors five times is just tiresome. Can we just get it over with?

Dragons were boring antagonists when you wrote them in to the world and they’re even more boring now. However, I’d like one more climactic balls to the wall battle to finally put this plot to rest and move on to more interesting things.