Stereotypes and Wall Street Simulator
Now, on the personal story, I won’t spend words on Destiny’s Edge because obviously they are very canonical characters, made just to give some columns to the basic story, nothing too important. But as other people said, the way you feel in the personal story completely sucks.
I had the impression that from a random guy, I became a random guy that now was shouting “Reporting for duty” to another guy.
If you want to know how do I feel about this choices, here I am:
The general is a sylvari, that is the new race of GW. So to give this race more visibility, let’s make the boss one of them. Traherne though gets all the glory.
You fight the monsters, you struggle so much, and in the end Traherne comes and purifies everything.
The overall story looks like one of this B-series movies from Hollywood that don’t have any involvement, they are there just to fill the screen and give the minimum pretest to bring on a character leveling.
Everything now goes into this misplaced militarized frame where everyone is a soldier that has to fight for justice, freedom, etc.
Yes, the market is full of people that spends time on Battlefield, COD, and many other shooters out there where you are a soldier, but this doesn’t mean that you have to create the entire story around this soldier concept just to attract this “modern” customers.
More hero, less soldier.
More adventure, less orders.
More GW, less anything else.
Do I have to worry about the choices that I make during my character creation? Because I recall that only 1 or 2 episodes of the PS were about the choices I made. Then back to the default patterns for that race. And then, did this episodes mean something? No, in the end we slayed the dragon so who cares about MY personal story, right?
Also we still don’t have new areas unlocked, even via LS, after more than a year, and that is the real content that most players are looking for.
You sacrificed a game about story for a game about market and grind.
No wonder everybody is more worried about the gold they have than the fact that they are playing a game.
Everything for the sake of those stupid players who prefer to grind, become powerful in a fictious way, make gold, gold, gold, like they are some big imprenditors, but when it comes to new areas, maybe new (and decent) stories, that is, repeat after me, THE MAIN REASON GW IS A GOOD GAME, then we have to wait and hope.
I get so angry because I didn’t know nothing about GW, I found it on the internet while I was looking for a good MMO to play that wasn’t about money and grind, I decided to buy GW1 and all its expansions because it looked good and then BAM! Who cares if it’s so old, the game is kittening interesting, got stunning enviroments, you don’t have to struggle to be strong, there’s some artistic inspiration here at work, I can tell, and go through an involving story that follows through the expansions to fulfill at the last with the kill of the 1st dragon lieutenant.
I go to GW2, let’s try it out, the art is superb, very nice, but the story is a huge mess. Stereotypes and wall street simulators.
Honestly I’m glad these rants/threads keep appearing with some regularity. It’s a bit reassuring.
It’s not like it’s that hard to make a decent story, there are so many working cliches you can use to do that. Hollywood does it all the time.
It’s hard to make a good story, however, sure…
But you don’t have to abide by the usual “Player is super-awesome. Player saves world. Player the best there is!” Hollywood-induced standard of storytelling to do that either. But then even if you do resort to it, you can write a decent story to go with it, still.
On top of that, what GW2’s writers have done at least (AT LEAST) twice now is do away with the player character entirely and try to make us care about someone we don’t know or care about coming into the limelight to steal the focus and spread buttery cream over the audience’s faces about how awesomely-amazing THEY are (Trahearne, Destiny’s Edge, the Orders, Scarlet…)
It’s, like, you know: “Hello? I’m the player here! Anyone remember me?.. Am I just supposed to watch these guys have fun from now on?..”
What did Trahearne say when he read his script?
“This will not end well.”
Scarlet is just another Rita Repulsa. Sad, really.
Just wait for the big reveal in a few months, where its turns out that Scarlet is [insert standard out-of-the-blue ‘ooh, nobody could have known’ hollywood cliché reveal] and that will explain the whole year of LS dealing with everything else but the dragon threat.
Oh…let me guess, Scarlet IS an elder dragon!
Just wait and see and be surprised.
Scarlet being an elder dragon would actually be a cool twist. I wouldn’t mind having a sentient elder dragon as an up-close antagonist, though they better not mess it up.
Scarlet being an elder dragon would actually be a cool twist. I wouldn’t mind having a sentient elder dragon as an up-close antagonist, though they better not mess it up.
At least this would return the Dragons back to the game even if such a twist is probably the cheapest I can imagine, but in terms of messing this up….I think it cant be much more underwhelming as it is now.
Besides, who is actually responsible for that Scarlet story? Is it the result of collaborative writers?
My bet is that its coming from a female writer…because, well…. Scarlet.
What about the writers who wrote those stories in GW1? At least there was some kind of development and suspension even.
Are they all gone?
My bet is that its coming from a female writer…because, well…. Scarlet.
Really? Really? Never mind that the vast majority of these ~stereotypical females~ in media being lamented here are created and designed by men who present women as one-dimensional, skin-flashing walking hormone bags.
No seriously, real talk here. Why would you even assume as much? “Because Scarlet” doesn’t mean a thing.
My bet is that its coming from a female writer…because, well…. Scarlet.
Really? Really?
To the writer’s credit, gender equality standards in Tyria are miles above what gamers are used to.
Scarlet, on the other hand, feels like a very blatant self-insert Villain Sue.
I have to admit, my reasoning about why I think Scarlet comes from a female writer isn’t very elaborate and actually just the summing up fom what my friends an I concluded.
To give some more explanation why we think this is so, here one of the main assumptions we made:
If Scarlet would’ve come from a male writer, she would at least have some kind of sex-appeal and attraction.
And that huhu-hihi-oh-so-funny panties mentioning of her in that cutscene…..
But in the end it doesn’t really matter if the person who wrote Scarlet is male-female or both.
I am sorry if I made the impression that because we think Scarlet is a badly written character, she must come from a female writer. Thats not at all the case.
Its more because she is not that ~stereotypical female~ which mostly come from male writers but just the extreme opposite (female joker).
But I’d win my bet (a free pizza!).
(edited by Dafomen.7892)
I don’t know if we are talking about one writer or a group of writers, but I’ve lived in first person the negative effects of a brainstorming team of writers and that didn’t end up good.
It’s preferable to have only one person at the creation of the story to avoid subsequent lack of quality, possible problems in story matching, etc.
If the content comes monthly but we can get a very good story that goes deep and around a good portion of content, is way better, and I think everyone would be willing to wait.
I agree with most of what you’re saying, although I never had a problem with Trahearne. I found him at least moderately interesting and endearing in a Marvin the Paranoid Android sort of way. I don’t really understand the need for the story to be all about “ME” – I found it more realistic and satisfying for it to not be. I suppose I’m just tired of “Chosen Lone Hero of the World” stories, and at least this wasn’t about just one lone special hero (even if the story does come close to that).
While there are many issues with the plot that I could go into, I have to say first that what is done well is still incredibly refreshing when compared to other MMOs I’ve played. I can pick this apart, but I am still grateful that we have what we do when compared to some that are downright offensive to the core. I dislike the “Orders of Tyria” in general and they seem like awful plot devices to me, they’re one of the things I like the least from the story. I understand what they’re trying to do, but I don’t particularly like the way they did it – the world seems so small and condensed and I really dislike that. I dislike not having real dialogue options and how basically pointless the “Personality” system is. I dislike that apparently no one can be saved from Nightmare. I’m supposing it’s that way so we don’t have to feel guilty about killing them, but it feels forced and unrealistic – even Darth Vader was able to realise that going full Dark Side maybe wasn’t the best life choice after all.
But… back to the good! I have told my friends about certain characters/things/plotlines and they’ve been impressed for what is being done compared to other games. And there’s all the little things – like the quaggan and skritt and kodan and Wizard’s Fief (one of my favourite places in the game) and more. When it comes to a “living world” I wish they would add more life to the world itself – more dialogue options, more chances to have an impact on your character (have “Personality” actually do something, et cetera). I wish there were more places in the game that inspired wonder and awe – or even just made me laugh. I love the skillpoint in QD where you fight the Don Quixote skritt – his dialogue is priceless – I want more moments like that.
My biggest issue with Scarlet is that there’s no reason to care about her. I loved Halloween because you get a real sense of the characters. I was expecting to hate The Bloody Prince, because I am a cynical jerk – but the back-and-forth in the Labyrinth really won me over. Just those few strands of dialogue imparted such character and told you so much about their history, relationship, and motivations. That’s what I want from Scarlet or anyone. The “Mad Family” has so much potential – so much more than I can see at this point with Scarlet. I am genuinely interested in seeing what they do with it next year and really hope that they can continue the storyline with at least the same quality as this year.
Collaborative writing doesn’t have to be a bad thing – many great movies and television shows with enjoyable plots were made by a team, not just a lone visionary. I don’t think either way of working is a sure path to success or failure. I’m not sure if this is what you’re saying or something else, though.
You don’t have to be male or female to be a terrible writer. I’ve seen things in this game that I think are good because of what I suspect to be involvement from non-stereotypical-male perspectives (or simply catering to them blindly and dumping the old barrel of cliches on us over and over – Scarlet might fit that, but at least we have character who admirably are not her). I think that’s great. However, anyone can write something terrible, it doesn’t matter if you’re male or female. You can have Twilight but there’s also The Da Vinci Code (I have no issue with the plot material, the quality of sentences and such in it is just so bad as to be memorable in and of itself).
Just wanted to jump in and voice my support for the OP. I agree completely. Hire this guy, or something – you’ve got nothing more to loose in this area, Anet. ^^’
PS:
Scarlet as an Elder Dragon would be disgraceful in so many ways. Then again, there is almost nothing left over to screw up, imo – they might as well go all the way now. g
Almost makes me long for a Ragnarok like event here. oO … TABULA RASA!
Jokes aside – honestly, I wish they would get their act together. :-/
On top of that, what GW2’s writers have done at least (AT LEAST) twice now is do away with the player character entirely and try to make us care about someone we don’t know or care about coming into the limelight to steal the focus and spread buttery cream over the audience’s faces about how awesomely-amazing THEY are (Trahearne, Destiny’s Edge, the Orders, Scarlet…)
It’s, like, you know: “Hello? I’m the player here! Anyone remember me?.. Am I just supposed to watch these guys have fun from now on?..”
This is exactly all my problems with the story in a nutshell, and also what you said about horrible cliche’s. The writers seem to have a lot of trouble making the player feel like the star, and they write very shallow characters that take the spotlight instead. I don’t care what anyone claims on this, it is not needed in an MMO. There ARE ways around it, to make the players the hero. Even if there are a thousand players beating up Zhaitan every day, there are ways to recognize that, and you don’t need a party of stereotype npc’s to do it.
On the topic of Scarlet, I’ve already mentioned in another thread how she is a tired female villain stereotype. Look, writing good characters is hard work, I know. But just avoid these stereotypes please. Give your female characters some back bone, make them full fledged characters.
The hardest part is the marriage between story and gameplay, and this is perhaps the biggest challenge to the writers. Involve the players! Get us invested in the characters!
Ironically, some of the characters that players seem to enjoy the most, are characters like Tybalt and Ho-Ho-Tron. But those are comic relief characters. They are a one-note joke mostly. What about actually being invested with the more serious characters? I’d say Kasmeer and Marjory are the only exceptions so far, along with perhaps Braham and Rox. So the Living Story isn’t entirely a failure as everyone seems to claim, at least as writing characters is concerned. But we should also care about the villain, and I prefer that the villain isn’t so clearly black hat.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
In my opinion, GW2’s storytelling could’ve been so much better if they had factions, like most traditional MMOs.
Instead, everyone is on the same team.
An open-world, factional conflict, would’ve made us feel more unique, especially if races were locked to certain factions. The stories could’ve been more amazing. There’s WvW and SPvP, of course, but the storytelling in those aspects is pretty much non-existent.
There are many rival factions in GW Lore, but they were never utilized in a way to create tension and drama. The Priory, Vigil, and Order of Whispers. There’s also the White Mantle, Shining Blade, and others from GW1.
Instead, we get the cliche dragon story. Everyone working together, etc… Anyway, it’s too late now, and GW2 will never change to an open-world, factional system.
In my opinion, GW2’s storytelling could’ve been so much better if they had factions, like most traditional MMOs.
Instead, everyone is on the same team.
An open-world, factional conflict, would’ve made us feel more unique, especially if races were locked to certain factions. The stories could’ve been more amazing. There’s WvW and SPvP, of course, but the storytelling in those aspects is pretty much non-existent.There are many rival factions in GW Lore, but they were never utilized in a way to create tension and drama. The Priory, Vigil, and Order of Whispers. There’s also the White Mantle, Shining Blade, and others from GW1.
Instead, we get the cliche dragon story. Everyone working together, etc… Anyway, it’s too late now, and GW2 will never change to an open-world, factional system.
Yes, I also think that GW2 has lost much of its bite, since everyone is so buddy buddy with each other. I mean, engine wise a separation of the races isn’t necessary. Let the people decide with whom they want to play. Lore wise however, Anet has given up on some pretty interesting stuff.
Because they practically eliminated every major problem between the big races, they now have to pull stupid stuff out of their hats, so the races have to do something. Maybe the best among this were the Dragons. But there are only 6 of them – with one beeing supposedly destroyed. 5 to go, so they have to stretch – and that’s where something like Scarlet butts in. <shudder>
My bet is that its coming from a female writer…because, well…. Scarlet.
Really? Really? Never mind that the vast majority of these ~stereotypical females~ in media being lamented here are created and designed by men who present women as one-dimensional, skin-flashing walking hormone bags.
No seriously, real talk here. Why would you even assume as much? “Because Scarlet” doesn’t mean a thing.
Yo bro, don’t misquote me.
I think the Living World would be better off without a protagonist cast. What do the recurring characters add that isn’t better done by an NPC specific to each month’s conflict or existing prominent characters in Tyria? Rox and Braham had a solid connection to Flame and Frost, Marjory was a glorified quest giver in Dragonbash, but since then they are holding the story back (that was hard to say given the quality of the story). Rox was at Tequatl but why? To wedge her into the story. A hylek or sylvari NPC specific to that conflict would have fleshed out more of a story there. The Living Story cast are taking the attention away from the player (Ellen Kiel in everything she did prior to Cutthroat Politics, now Kasmeer is taking shots at Rox and Braham for letting Scarlet slip away when the player themselves were present but forgotten). The characters they’ve created don’t make sense outside of their little niches and the story misses out because of this. They are like Scarlet, popping up everywhere regardless of whether it makes sense or not – simply because they are the Living Story cast.
The Living Story cast are barely involved with the story beyond banter and the player isn’t either. I really miss the story telling from GW1 and WoW. When characters were involved, it was usually because they were important or relevant. In Guild Wars 2 it’s like watching someone’s fanfic play out.
I think the Living World would be better off without a protagonist cast. What do the recurring characters add that isn’t better done by an NPC specific to each month’s conflict or existing prominent characters in Tyria? Rox and Braham had a solid connection to Flame and Frost, Marjory was a glorified quest giver in Dragonbash, but since then they are holding the story back (that was hard to say given the quality of the story). Rox was at Tequatl but why? To wedge her into the story. A hylek or sylvari NPC specific to that conflict would have fleshed out more of a story there. The Living Story cast are taking the attention away from the player (Ellen Kiel in everything she did prior to Cutthroat Politics, now Kasmeer is taking shots at Rox and Braham for letting Scarlet slip away when the player themselves were present but forgotten). The characters they’ve created don’t make sense outside of their little niches and the story misses out because of this. They are like Scarlet, popping up everywhere regardless of whether it makes sense or not – simply because they are the Living Story cast.
The Living Story cast are barely involved with the story beyond banter and the player isn’t either. I really miss the story telling from GW1 and WoW. When characters were involved, it was usually because they were important or relevant. In Guild Wars 2 it’s like watching someone’s fanfic play out.
Yes, this is another problem.
Rox and Braham where introduced with Flame and Frost and they where very good at their job during that episode, but after that they’ve been shown almost everywhere.
I understand that destiny’s edge is busy with the dragon storyline, so they needed to create another pool of recognizable NPc’s to use in the living story, but the living story is not finite, therefore you can’t overuse the same characters so often or you end up in creating a very poor sense of progression.
Basically with this living story, each major episode introduced unique NPC’s, but the problem is that the previous characters where used again too, creating a “melting pot” in the story arc that was completely disturbing and forced.
Let’s examine the tower of nightmares: it was located in Kessex Hills, mainly human territory, and since Scarlet was trying to abduct the Queen, the human Kasmeer and the asian chick went there.
Good, now that would have been the perfect time to introduce other characters from the human side, because somebody like Rox or Braham are very unlikely to go to kessex hills just to fight with the nightmare court for a territory and for hurting people that don’t belong to them.
Rox and braham united their forces because the Molten alliance was both a Norn and Charr menace, but the toxics?
At least they could have used sylvari’s and humans together, but surely the other two heroes are completely out of place.
It would be good to plan new characters for each new story arc of the living story and then only in the future, perhaps in story arcs plus or less relevant, make only SOME of the previuos NPC’s appear again, possibly because they are directly involved, since it’s very unrealistic, even for a fairy tale, that each one acts for the good of the world and is everywhere he is needed. They would have their own lives and battles to fight.
If writers are so eager to make all their heroes appear, this can easily be done with the dragons, but since not all the warriors in Tyria are there to fight the dragons, but also other enemy factions like centaurs, bandits, etc., you have to filter the characters you have and let them behave accordingly, without making all of them brave and willingfull to fight.
I think the inclusion of Rox and Braham was fine. I like running into these characters. They never really hog the spotlight, nor manifest absurd powers that the players don’t have. And I think any storyline that avoids the inclusion of Destiny’s Edge is already an improvement, because those characters are awful!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
You don’t need to use Destiny’s Edge. Think of how well Rox and Braham worked in Flame and Frost. Not only did they make sense as characters in that update, they actually deepened the plot. Their presence added a face to the story being told at the time. Rox shows first hand how the charr responded to the threat, she reinforces charr lore with her warband and her interactions with the hatchery “humanise” the conflict, Braham is the same – explores the reasons why the norn weren’t involved in a rescue attempt but he also helps the player to care more about the people of Craigstead. What does their presence at the Queen’s Jubilee do? Rox is just a name to a delegate, Braham added nothing. They didn’t develop the tower story either, they were just present like the player and the other Living Story cast.
Think how much better Tequatl Rising would have been if a Hylek or Sylvari NPC had been used in place of Rox. The Living Story doesn’t need a core cast of characters, it needs characters that strengthen the story, not ones that are a sideshow to it (a lot of positive feedback about the camp dialogue but almost none of it has anything to do with the actual story, it could be given to anyone anywhere in Tyria and it would mean as much).
Ellen Kiel is about the only Living Story cast member who seems to consistently make sense to be in the story (despite all my issues with her). Her position in the Lionguard made sense with her involvement at Southsun, it was a bit convenient during Dragonbash but not a leap. The election was the same and now she’s popping up to interrogate Dessa because of her link to the Consortium. She might be a boring, overused, credit stealing character (imo) but Kiel makes more sense in the story than the other four.
Part of the reason why the Living Story is so weak is the core cast serve as a distraction from the actual story as opposed to helping to develop the plot and the situations occurring each month. The world is full of heroes who have no story driven reasons to be in every event that pops up – the player character. The story characters should exist to serve the story, let the players be the heroes and the story characters can be for exposition and “quest giving”.
I’m still kinda hoping that Scarlet is just sidekick/agent of an Elder Dragon. Would have preferred the established factions and groups to realise their own agenda, rather than simply serve as a plot resource for Villain-of-the-Season.
I like Scarlet, really just think about what a mad scientist in a world with magic would do while “experimenting” in the field of “synergetics”.
… Exactly…
EVERY engineer in Tyria has a VERY BIG RIFLE, why should Scarlet be an exception?
Her fashion sense needs improvemet, true, BUT WHAT DO YOU EXPECT SHE IS AN ENGINEER!!!
To be blunt I think you are just unable to cope with a comicbook FEMALE supervillan (especially since she is a sylvari/elf), I am 100% sure if she was a male asura this threat would not exist.
(edited by Bazzoong.7145)
I like Scarlet, really just think about what a mad scientist in a world with magic would do while “experimenting” in the field of “synergetics”.
… Exactly…
EVERY engineer in Tyria has a VERY BIG RIFLE, why should Scarlet be an exception?
Her fashion sense needs improvemet, true, BUT WHAT DO YOU EXPECT SHE IS AN ENGINEER!!!
To be blunt I think you are just unable to cope with a comicbook FEMALE supervillan (especially since she is a sylvari/elf), I am 100% sure if she was a male asura this threat would not exist.
What’s up with the caps? … Jeez…
I for one expect plausibility and that she can’t deliver. There are plenty of engineers or mages out there. Some of them surely are crazy. Non of them however sports this level of OPness. Nothing seems to be impossible or even hard to do for her. That’s a weak way of presenting a character – be it hero or villain – be it comic or computer game.
This thread would obviously not exist, if Scarlet wouldn’t exist. That’s because this thread is about <gasp> … Scarlet … You set this on up nicely, didn’t you? ;-)
In any case, if the villain was an Asura, I’m sure the power level would still have been a bit to high. People would have pointed this out. So fear not! You’re not surrounded by misogynists… <rolls eyes>
^ Superman is Ok, though. Or Dr. Doom…
To make my earlier statement more precice: If there was a male asura NPC doing exactly the stuff that Scarlet does (maybe wearing black robes or something) a thread of this kind would not exist.
Oh, I forgot to use CAPS, here you go. The internet is all about stereotypes.
…I am 100% sure if she was a male asura this threat would not exist.
If the villain was asuran, players would just have to set out a mouse trap with a circuitboard as bait. :P
^ Superman is Ok, though. Or Dr. Doom…
To make my earlier statement more precice: If there was a male asura NPC doing exactly the stuff that Scarlet does (maybe wearing black robes or something) a thread of this kind would not exist.
Errrrm … noooo? Neither of them is ok. Not for me. And I think, the chance is pretty low, that you find anyone here, who is overly fond of them. Not among those who criticise Scarlet on a the level of bad presentation / writing. You don’t seem to understand what has been said here.
To be honest, I find it preposterous how you go all out with a mere assumption, and try to proof that people who voice valid concerns here contradict themselves. Sorry to burst your bubble but, no, it has nothing to do at all with Scarlet being a female. That’s just simple minded of you. And I say it again, even if it were an Asura male, people would have had problems with all this. I know, I would have, because the power level is simply to high and the introduction was miserable. It’s just not very plausible. Got it?