Guild Wars 2

GeminiArcher.7809:

Shriketalon.1937:

It is extremely important for an author to be genre savvy. You don’t tell an epic legend like you do a buddy cop comedy

Really?

looks at Tybalt

Why does everyone love this dummy, then?

I actually quite dislike Tybalt, precisely because he is a comedy character in an order which should be anything but comedy.

More on topic, I think that the Biconics should be used more selectively : instead of having them all the time, use characters seen in the personal story and LS1, and bring new ones. hell, even bring characters that our PC would usually kill but that he would have to work with since the danger is to great as of now (basically my idea in this thread https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Hard-times-make-for-strange-bedfellows/first#post4296956 .

Don’t get me wrong, I like all the Biconics (even Taimi, of all people) but I think it is better to the story to use other characters. And Anet doesn’t have to discard them us old socks, since there is way to allow them to stay, even if only on the background sometime : we are a Commander of the Pact, and not any one, the one who brought down Zhaïtan, so I think that our good friend Treaherne would easily find volunteers to be the members of our personal Pact division. We would get the Biconics, but also characters we interacted with during the PS in our own Vanguard Base during the campaign. Obviously, some would die but instead of them being almost unknown (or totally unknown, if you choose poorly during PS) characters, they’ll be Our Guys. And I want the Biconics in.

And I would like that because I, Valmir Haakonsson, slayer of Zhaïtan and Vanquisher of Scarlet Briar have a personal grudge to settle with Mordremoth : he killed the sister of a friend and I need an army to take him down.

Whenever I’ve heard anet talk about the living story strategy, they describe it as “like a tv show”. I wonder if this has influenced the writing at all. In a TV show, no matter how grand or fantastical the setting, the story is in the cast. They are the lense we see their world through; their struggles are what drives the plot. But in an open world RPG, we are already IN the world. We can experience the events ourselves, watch and interact with developments as if it was a LIVING world. Job-o-tron feels like he is part of a living, breathing world. I come across him when it makes sense to, and he evolves and shows different sides of his personality. The biconics are more like sitcom characters, and following their narrative feels a bit arbitrary for many of the reasons the OP listed.

rfdarko.4639:

Job-o-tron feels like he is part of a living, breathing world. I come across him when it makes sense to, and he evolves and shows different sides of his personality.

I don’t know, I think his “evolution” smacked of pandering and the popularity of him probably took root with more people who liked snarky mechanical characters (HK-47) than those like me, who would rather they just . . . go away.

I do find it odd, how his “evolution” gets spotlighted, but because he’s not specifically part of the biconics, anything the writers try to do with them gets labeled like I did above with the lil golemite – “pandering to X base” but when it comes to a side character . . . it’s cool and unusual and they should do more.

No, they should do more reasonable things, like restraint and slowing the story down a tad. It’s falling into the trap (at least of Dragon’s Reach pt1) of moving too quickly through the plot points.

The biconics are more like sitcom characters, and following their narrative feels a bit arbitrary for many of the reasons the OP listed.

See, this here encapsulates why I think it’s sad people only like the side characters in the LS rather than the main biconics. The biconics are “sitcom characters”, but Job-o-Tron is “interesting”. Despite his almost every appearance playing comic relief.

You want to know what I relate the biconics to, with a little sadness? The castaways of Lost. Because they were just as flawed a concept, because there were just as many writing and pacing mishaps, and because there was just as many “okay, that was actually pretty good” moments in that show.

Shriketalon.1937:

Greetings and Salutations!

As the second season of the Living Story progresses, there are numerous advancements in the mechanics to celebrate, but also some troubles and tribulations. One particular burr in the sandal of the storyline shows no sign of ceasing, and thus it seems fitting to talk about a lingering problem with the narrative. The Biconics.

My thesis is simple. The story should stop treating these side characters like protagonists.

The Biconics are not bad characters. Far from it, they are fairly witty and amusing most of the time, and their interactions can be quite enjoyable. But the Living Story has decided that they are the focal point of the entire game, shackling our main characters to these five strangers and declaring them to be the protagonists of the franchise. This is flawed. It does not make sense from a narrative perspective, and it won’t do the series any favors in presenting interesting and compelling stories in the days to come.

In keeping with my oddball format, I’d like to present six reasons why the Biconics are a problem, and offer an example from the Living Story Season 1 of magnificent storytelling as a model for future tales. Rather than interject any of my own speculation or fanfiction into the mixture, I’d like you to solely consider the characters from the game itself who could be at the forefront of the narrative between these two posts.

Ready? Here we go!

Oh man, I can’t wait to finish reading this, love when this guy does presentations that totally school the devs in something they have royally screwed up.

Abe Kleine.3568:

Shriketalon.1937:

Greetings and Salutations!

As the second season of the Living Story progresses, there are numerous advancements in the mechanics to celebrate, but also some troubles and tribulations. One particular burr in the sandal of the storyline shows no sign of ceasing, and thus it seems fitting to talk about a lingering problem with the narrative. The Biconics.

My thesis is simple. The story should stop treating these side characters like protagonists.

The Biconics are not bad characters. Far from it, they are fairly witty and amusing most of the time, and their interactions can be quite enjoyable. But the Living Story has decided that they are the focal point of the entire game, shackling our main characters to these five strangers and declaring them to be the protagonists of the franchise. This is flawed. It does not make sense from a narrative perspective, and it won’t do the series any favors in presenting interesting and compelling stories in the days to come.

In keeping with my oddball format, I’d like to present six reasons why the Biconics are a problem, and offer an example from the Living Story Season 1 of magnificent storytelling as a model for future tales. Rather than interject any of my own speculation or fanfiction into the mixture, I’d like you to solely consider the characters from the game itself who could be at the forefront of the narrative between these two posts.

Ready? Here we go!

Oh man, I can’t wait to finish reading this, love when this guy does presentations that totally school the devs in something they have royally screwed up.

Read it, and was not disappointed. Tired of this BS, I am important, these other characters aren’t, Daphney and Freddie need to stop being lovely dovey and less PSA please (don’t care about gender get your love out of this war, this isn’t hollywood ruining a good concept of a movie by throwing love in the mix) and I don’t want to be Scrappy doo…. Which we are at the moment

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You want to know what I relate the biconics to, with a little sadness? The castaways of Lost. Because they were just as flawed a concept, because there were just as many writing and pacing mishaps, and because there was just as many “okay, that was actually pretty good” moments in that show.

My point was less about the characterization itself, and more in how we experience those characters in game. Whether you find job-o-tron endearing or annoying, they way you encounter him is organic – he is living his life in the in-game world, and we run into him when our paths happen to cross. By sitcom characters I don’t necessarily mean silly and throw away. I mean that we are experiencing the events of tyria through these characters and much of the plot comes from character drama – like you would when watching a TV show. When I’m playing an mmorpg, I don’t want it to be like a TV show – I want it to take full advantage of the fact that my character is IN and A PART of the world, and I have an opportunity to interact with charterers in a more natural way.

rfdarko.4639:

My point was less about the characterization itself, and more in how we experience those characters in game. Whether you find job-o-tron endearing or annoying, they way you encounter him is organic – he is living his life in the in-game world, and we run into him when our paths happen to cross.

No, it’s not organic. It’s forced. That was part of my point; it’s forced and almost assured of how his involvement was going to take place at a given time. He’s not living his live, he’s being paraded at us. Or rather, was.

By sitcom characters I don’t necessarily mean silly and throw away. I mean that we are experiencing the events of tyria through these characters and much of the plot comes from character drama – like you would when watching a TV show. When I’m playing an mmorpg, I don’t want it to be like a TV show – I want it to take full advantage of the fact that my character is IN and A PART of the world, and I have an opportunity to interact with charterers in a more natural way.

Sitcom is “situation comedy”, which is different than “drama” . . . all television shows are not sitcoms. CSI is not a sitcom, neither was Law and Order, NYPD Blue, The West Wing, Star Trek (okay, debatably Voyager may count as a sitcom), Dark Shadows, Game of Thrones . . . of these categories, sitcoms and reality shows are the two which get the biggest eye rolls in general. Sitcom is sometimes used as a means of derision when talking about characterization or plot. So instead of saying “TV show” to begin with, you said “sitcom” which shows where your mind goes subconsciously when you think about this. What you’re telling me, through your choice of words, is how you see the living story and the biconics.

As I said up-thread: there is enough room for character drama to take place around us. That’s not really the issue going on here, the issue is how each part doesn’t have room to breathe or sink in with the characters before the next part is dropped.

Also, and repeating this because it’s relevant: it’s odd you praise a character-centric sideshow in the golemite formerly known by “Job-o-Tron” while condemning the rest of it for even trying. This shows you care less about it actually being present and more about whether it meets what you think is suitably worth your time. “Job-o-Tron” may be having his own thing, but like the biconics it happens without our character’s input, without their interaction, and all on its own.

Yet you like it and praise it while saying the other side of the coin isn’t proper and good. Do you see why I was/am so exasperated yet?

A little side note, though. I came into this game off GW1 and the story there. That means I had some experience with ArenaNet’s style of telling a story . . . and it was exactly the same in the four storylines before Guild Wars 2. Player agency didn’t exist, we were just present to do things to move the story along and get told what to do next. Even in the campaign with arguably the most player agency (Nightfall) it boiled down to riding the rails of a campaign already plotted out with no real changes to the story no matter what you chose. I do not understand how it should be expected we would get anything differently handled when we got six years of that type of story presence.

I feel like the biconics have taken way too much space in the living world so far. Rox and Braham should’ve left once the molten alliance got stopped. Majory and Kasmeer should’ve left after they’ve solved the murder. Taimi should’ve been sent back to Rata Sum long time ago. Each of those characters should make a comeback once we really need them, not stay with us the entire time. This way all those character would fit in the story and not feel like forced on us, like they’re now.

I think storywise the living world suffers from the exact opposite the personal story suffered from. In the personal story, characters got introduced we never saw again. That’s probably because different teams did the writing for each 10-level arc. The one team introduces characters, the next team wont use. The living world got written by only one team and this team only uses the same characters over and over.

Andred.1087:

I think it’s worth pointing out this game isn’t made for adults. Obviously not saying adults aren’t part of the target market, but surely not the largest part. There’s a reason it’s rated T, and it probably isn’t because the writers wanted to spent their days writing the cheesiest dialogue since, well, yes, Scooby Doo.

Alot of us here talking about the game’s story because we all bought the game for the story. Plus the Anet team did use the game’s story to advertise the game.

The bar is set very high for RPGs, thanks to Teen-rated games like:

Baldur’s Gate
Planescape Torment
Divinity original sin
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy 7
Final Fantasy 8
Final Fantasy 9
ChronoTrigger
The Last Story

There are even some E-rated RPG games that have high-quality, endearing storylines too :

Legend of Zelda (everything from A Link to the Past to Skyward Sword has an endearing storyline)

Kingdom Hearts

Just because GW2 is an MMORPG doesn’t mean that it can’t have a good storyline. Even WoW’s Mists of Pandaria has a pretty good general storyline.

Yes, there are plenty of adults who like all of the games I’ve mentioned.

My guess is that the writing team is limited to only a handful of people. This game is way too large for a small group of writers to take on. IMO, what Arena Net needs are writers who can submit game manuscripts to the company. Hmmm… I think I’ll contact Anet’s HR and ask them about that.

If this were a TV show, I’d be writing spec scripts and submitting them ASAP.

Should it be noted the ratings have tightened up considerably for video games in recent times? And how the writing isn’t really too far off the mark from previous efforts . . . apparently, reading the notes on “Winds of Change”, the story crept further to being less about the player character and more about circumstances they watch unfold.

So, I’d even go so far as to say this sort of story is exactly what could be expected out of ArenaNet following GW1.

Regardless of how you feel about children in combat, or whether interactions are “forced” or “organic,” I think it basically boils down to: show, don’t tell.

The living story is like the Star Wars prequels. It never really shows how characters bond and grow in response to events. Rather, they simply are and the writers use narrative to explain why they are that way. It’s incredibly dissatisfying and hamfisted.

That sad part is, Jeff Grub is on the writing staff. He should know better. He used to write DragonLance novels for TSR, and the original DragonLance trilogy by Weiss and Hickman is one of my favorite fantasy series in terms of characterization. I thought the authors did a great job of showing how a group of people changed in response to events; struggled with insecurity, stereotype, and desires; and ultimately developed as separate individuals over time.

That’s why hobo-tron works and why people respond to him. Put aside whether you like him as comic relief or not, or have problems with the details of his Golem sentience with respect to the larger game lore – something a favorite English teacher of mine called the “shut up and drink your beer” response to minor fact inconsistencies. The character itself is very dynamic and we, the players, can see how he changes in response to the events of the world, what motivates him, and emphasize with his struggles. First, he loses his job. Second, we find him begging on the streets of Divinity’s Reach. Third, he’s kidnapped by scarlet and falsely accused of aiding her. Fourth, his redemption arc begins as he tries to clear his name and show that he’s a good person. We’re involved in all of that.

In contrast, we’ve been told things about DE2.0’s backstory, but we didn’t see them then and the characters don’t seem to evolve at all now.

Shriketalon, I am rather impressed by the work you put into describing all the things wrong with the characters we accompany.
I did notice most of your points during gameplay, but your elaborations are quite detailed.
A big concern i have with this method of storytelling is also that they keep forcing my character into a role i don’t want it to have. If the story gave me a good reason why i had to travel with those companions, then that would make sense. But from the perspective of my character which i customized at the beginning of my very first login, the Living Story is a mess.
Even if i were to say ‘okay, maybe the characters bonded Off-screen and like each other due to that’ (which would still not change that the plot should at the very least hint on why we are connected to all these characters) my character simply would never fit into these situations. The dialogue options when talking to anyone ever display my own playable character as a person i wouldn’t even like – not to mention one i would want to play.
Why am I forced to make (bad) jokes about giving Scarlet the final blow?
Why am I forced to be friends with characters I may not even like?
Why am I forced to pretty much completely abandon the Guild I chose in the middle of the Game – the one choice during gameplay that ever affected what would happen later on?
We got the choice to join the Vigil, the Priory or the Order of Whispers – Just because they did join forced to build the Pact doesn’t mean I am no longer a member of my Guild! Yet, after the first Elderdragon was slain, we abandoned both our post as Pact commander (even though the pact is clearly still working towards fighting more Dragons), but even the Guild we chose ourselves – For once we actually get to make a choice and then we abandon it soon after?

This is not my character. This character i play was forced to become someone I would never want to be, neither in game, nor in real life.

This was a lot of text for a small point to bring across, but even though i know these things have been mentioned across the forums before I wanted to bring it into context here.

Shriketalon.1937:

Greetings and Salutations!…..
Ready? Here we go!

You nailed a bunch of points… My favorites were:

I have no reason to like these people. (though I do disagree that they are witty & interesting. I find the writer’s “wit” annoying as balls.)

These guys represent NOTHING about the lore. tbh, Guild Wars 2 represents little of the old lore at all. I think that’s one of the reasons I feel like these character’s are pet characters that satisfy the writers compulsions, & do no service to the Guild Wars universe.

Mckeone.9804:

That sad part is, Jeff Grub is on the writing staff. He should know better. He used to write DragonLance novels for TSR, and the original DragonLance trilogy by Weiss and Hickman is one of my favorite fantasy series in terms of characterization. I thought the authors did a great job of showing how a group of people changed in response to events; struggled with insecurity, stereotype, and desires; and ultimately developed as separate individuals over time.

I didn’t know there’s a Dragonlance author on the Anet writing team.

I remember reading a few Dragonlance novels in my early 20s. Never could get into the series because the stories had very slow character development. I’m more of a Planescape / Legend of Zelda /Final Fantasy / LOTR fan.

So now we have two people on the writing team who are used to writing regular stories (Jeff Grub & Angel McCoy). That means this game is their first time writing CRPGs. That definitely explains:

—why we have DE 2.0 in the first place and the vast departure from the GW1 storytelling.

—the slow character development

—Why GW2 sometimes feels like it’s Dev vs. Player. GM vs Player is a common thing in D&D.

To be fair, Jeff Grub was involved with GW: EOTN and also has a much deeper background in writing fantasy novels. Angel McCoy wrote a lot of source material for Changeling and other White Wolf products, and a handful of short stories IIRC.

Mckeone.9804:

To be fair, Jeff Grub was involved with GW: EOTN and also has a much deeper background in writing fantasy novels. Angel McCoy wrote a lot of source material for Changeling and other White Wolf products, and a handful of short stories IIRC.

Okay so this is Jeff Grubb’s second cRPG and Angel’s first cRPG.

That’s really not enough experience when it comes to making video games. There is a big difference between computer RPGs and D&D. The only really successful D&D video game ventures have been Baldur’s Gate and Planescape Torment. Those two games barely made a profit even though they were awesome. Final Fantasy and Zelda were way more successful than either D&D game back in the 90s. FF and Zelda remained king of cRPGs until WoW came along.

Video games are very different from other mediums. cRPGs require a different approach since people are used to the instant satisfaction that games like WoW and Final Fantasy give to players. It helps to regularly play video games (even foreign ones) to learn how games affect the players and study the game mechanics.

Major NPCs, major items and most of the quests in the player character’s environment are used to tell the story in a cRPG. A good example was the spinal blade backpack. We needed the spinal blades to enter the instance where we could peg Scarlet. Even the blueprints pushed the story and mystery forward by having the following words printed on it:

“Caithe, someday you’ll see. Tyria needs me.” — Scarlet

People who played the Aetherblade dungeon know that Caithe and Scarlet had a conflict with each other. It’s well known that Scarlet knew Caithe’s secret. The spinal blades reminded the players about the conflict. That’s why we’re still talking about Caithe’s secret on the forums. It’s very important to the storyline. It also made the audience care.

In contrast, the Mawdrey backpack doesn’t have any storyline or any importance to the current tale. Neither do the insect weapons. We’re just making it for the sake of making an item. Why do we need to make the backpack? How important is it to the character? Will it unlock some hidden area? Wll Maudrey become like an NPC hero and help us in our fights? Will the insect weapons give us cool, unique powers to help us fight Mordremoth? Will either item provide protection against Mordie’s Torment status attacks?

As a writer, if something doesn’t push a story forward, I’ll cut it. Learning how to self-edit is just as important as writing.

Getting dangerously close into territory of “calling out an ANet employee” . . . can we trim it back some?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Getting dangerously close into territory of “calling out an ANet employee” . . . can we trim it back some?

Done! D…. censorship! If it’s still not good enough, let me know.

I’m still shocked about the writers’ backgrounds tho.

kta.6502:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Getting dangerously close into territory of “calling out an ANet employee” . . . can we trim it back some?

Done! D…. censorship! If it’s still not good enough, let me know.

I’m still shocked about the writers’ backgrounds tho.

I just don’t want this thread locked down due to overpassion. But as I said – doesn’t really surprise me much. I’ve seen much worse out of better authors/writers.

Yes, I agree with OP, they feel very forced upon me. Especially since I’ve missed some parts of LS 1. I have spent huge chunks of season 2 wondering why are they calling me boss? Why are they with me? Why can’t I tell them to buzz off? It literally feels like I am forced into a friendship.

This brings us to a second issue of GW2. If you are going to have narrative driven game, where world changes, you NEED to have some sort of codex (like the ones in Bioware’s games). If you force me to play with certain characters, and obviously want me to like them, then give me sustainable information about them.

And yes, I agree with another point. They do a lousy job of representing their race. Why not give me oportunity to ask Taimi about Asuran history? Why not ask Jory something about humans? Those characters could’ve been great lore-givers. But no, they are only recycling generic sentences and combat cries.

These characters annoy me to no end. Also, I feel like outside of Destiny’s Edge, ArenaNet can’t make characters of certain races that are actually individuals. This is especially noticeable with Asurans and Norns. Every norn just wants to have ale and kill things. All Asurans constantly talk about is how smart they are. It gets wildly annoying after a while, especially after you are forced to be in a new group with one.

Taimi: I’m too smart and misunderstood, because I’m Asuran!
Brahm: I only know how to solve problems by smashing my club. Also, give me ale!

Please let us interact with some other people as well. I’ve never met a group of NPCs in a game that have annoyed me more.

This has to be the best thread I’ve ever read on these forums.

I have been playing GW2 for over a year now, and this is the first time I’ve heard of the “Biconics”.

Here I was thinking that this thread was another whine about the LS, should have checked the author a couple of weeks ago, as then I could have read along. I will likely take some time to do the entire thread justice some other day, but just by reading the OP:

Even though I personally enjoy the LS from a casual gaming point of view (which happens to be how I enjoy GW2); I had to agree with pretty much all counts, or at least acknowledge your view on it, there is actually a thread still up in my keyboard (like they used to say ‘pen’) that sort of deals with this and more frankly your solution, only based upon a simple ‘this is how I expected the LS to work’.

Now I will have to say that you could do the same analysis on an approach where you change the characters every time. As not binding with them, not having enough time to flesh them out, etc. And we did sort of get introduced to Kasmeer during the Karka ordeal. The other characters sort of jumped on the bandwagon as the story progressed, so to me it feels somewhat natural asto how our band formed. I take the whole ‘boss’ thing for granted, as I can see how it would make it impossible to address us differently in voice acting…

I also find it nice that the characters are developing to a point where they can stand their own. Like, hopefully after this LS, we get paired up with some other assemble of people, but then, as that story unfolds, I would find it very natural to ask Braham along as a scout in the shiver peaks, or go to Taimi over ‘Zoja’ when some sort of technological device is concerned. If I wasn’t in the order of whispers (or maybe still), and the story hadn’t already escalated to a major proportion, I would ask Marjory to accompany me to some shady bar for some observational detective work. Or get into contact with Kasmeer where it concerns dealing with human politics and royalty. Or goto Rox for anything related to the Charr.

All of that would have been rather impossible to do, given these characters were not so extensively introduced and formed, as they are now. Just think how weird it would have been to go to some unknown un-introduced Asura to make a waypoint stabilizer, though arguably that is also because Zoja (and all other DE1 characters) are caught up in their own stuff…

So yeah, I agree with every point made (except one, but ill leave that for last), and I do hope they will continue to flesh out side characters into the story so that we can later on assist them (when they need our help) or group up with them. And as we do, we can now call upon some properly introduced characters for help along the way…

Lastly, I watched Scooby Doo a lot when I was a youngster, thing is, that little dog ?!? I mean, I know he got introduced at some point, but the early Scooby Doo’s didn’t come with him. So that point sort of totally got lost on me! :/

I have been gone far too long, much to catch up on. Will start with the recent.

Arghore.8340:

Now I will have to say that you could do the same analysis on an approach where you change the characters every time. As not binding with them, not having enough time to flesh them out, etc. And we did sort of get introduced to Kasmeer during the Karka ordeal. The other characters sort of jumped on the bandwagon as the story progressed, so to me it feels somewhat natural asto how our band formed. I take the whole ‘boss’ thing for granted, as I can see how it would make it impossible to address us differently in voice acting…

I also find it nice that the characters are developing to a point where they can stand their own. Like, hopefully after this LS, we get paired up with some other assemble of people, but then, as that story unfolds, I would find it very natural to ask Braham along as a scout in the shiver peaks, or go to Taimi over ‘Zoja’ when some sort of technological device is concerned. If I wasn’t in the order of whispers (or maybe still), and the story hadn’t already escalated to a major proportion, I would ask Marjory to accompany me to some shady bar for some observational detective work. Or get into contact with Kasmeer where it concerns dealing with human politics and royalty. Or goto Rox for anything related to the Charr.

All of that would have been rather impossible to do, given these characters were not so extensively introduced and formed, as they are now.

To a certain extent, I agree with you, yet the problem is not bringing along these characters when they are relevant, but the inverse.

Bringing Marjory to a crime scene or a murder investigation makes perfect sense. Relying on her as a shock trooper to storm a battleground does not. Taking Kasmeer to a political event to ferret out lies is a great use of her talents. Bringing her into a rugged survival situation against the biting elements, not so much, given her habit of running into dangerous terrain unclothed. Taimi is not suited for a combat zone, as her recent behavior proves. Rox is not suited toward anything requiring actual command, nor does Braham demonstrate any intellectual prowess that involves literacy. No offense, Braham, but seriously. Way to represent the great skalds of the north, man.

Thus I would add two caveats to your statement about these characters being seeded in to develop character. The first problem is that we are bringing these people along in situations that make no sense, purely on the justification that it gives them character development. That isn’t a good premise in the slightest.

But more importantly, we’re not developing connections with anyone else.

If you are correct, and the storylines where the characters were at their most relevant would be impossible without dragging them along for the last year to every little plotline across Tyria….we’re going to have severe problems whenever we try to get outside their comfort zone. What are we going to do when we go to Ascalon, and none of the characters no anything about the region? What happens when we try to delve into the mysteries of the Six Gods, or the Spirits, or the dark history of the Asura before they were driven from the depths? We’ve already seen what happens when we confront a mystery regarding the Sylvari in the first parts of Season 2. We turned to our panel of experts and they had nothing to show for it, because not a single one of them had any connection to Sylvari lore whatsoever. That’s going to happen across 90% of Tyria as long as “our team” consists solely of these five minor side characters.

If the Living Story spent more time developing characters the likes of Evon Gnashblade, we could have connections and contacts all across Tyria to deal with any situation. Havrouns, Sentinels, Seraph, Peacemakers, Wardens, Wolfborn, Lionguard, Shining Blade, Fallen Angels, Magisters, Lightbringers, Crusaders, Druids, Seers, Forgotten, Dwarves…the realm is just too full of so much magnificent potential to possibly believe that these five minor individuals are enough to breath life into the world.

Kain Francois.4328:

The player character is actually Vincent Van Ghoul, from the 13 Ghosts of Scooby-Doo.

Let the nostalgia commence!

Perhaps that is more accurate, but if there is any justice in the world, we should be Batman.

As the saying goes, always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman.

Psht, Batman. I’d rather be Doctor Manhattan.

Zaxares.5419:

Psht, Batman. I’d rather be Doctor Manhattan.

Sorry folks, if I get to pick someone from a comic book? Wedge Antilles.

. . . what?

@Shriketalon, foregoing the quote…

Well it’s not entirely true that we do not get introduced with other characters? Actually a lot of the characters you mention made an appearance at some point in the story or open world. While true, they do not get a full spotlight, but they are developing in the background. Even your Evon has evolved somewhat, and quite frankly I think he would be more concerned with his wares than going on an adventure…

But I still somewhat agree, the scope feels somewhat narrow, and I personally suspect that as the general story progresses we will loose some people in our group… Taimi likely to go back ‘to school’, Kasmeer being reinstated and Marjory choosing to stick close to her. Giving some room for fresh blood, it mean, it has to, or else the story would go stale…

Several posts ago, someone mentioned being so pleased as a sylvari or an asura to see characters from the start of the game later on.

It made me realise that that’s something that’s missing from GW2.

For example: in Mass Effect, there is a couple on the Citadel wondering if they should get genetic screening for the woman’s baby (I believe it’s the woman and her brother in law, as her husband is dead.) You can chime in (because you’re Commander Shepard, Savior of the Galaxy, look it doesn’t have to make sense).
Those characters reappear in ME2 and ME3. Not major, they don’t give you missions or anything, but they’re there. In ME2 you hear them talking about what a healthy kid it turned out to be (and worrying about something new, of course) but you can’t talk to them. In ME3 you can advise them to leave the Citadel before the Reapers attack it.
This isn’t the only time something like that happens in that series, although it’s the only one I can remember in specific detail at the moment. That feeling of glee when you see someone from a previous chapter, and knowing that you influenced their lives, is worth any amount of cutscenes explaining how you changed the world. To me. YMMV obviously.

That’s what I want from Guild Wars. Don’t make me hang around for five or ten minutes at a time listening to dialogue from characters that, quite frankly, I don’t care much about (and honestly, I find Taimi adorable and Kasmeer and Marjory were really sweet before I had to listen to hour upon hour of them yammering on about their feelings, but I really don’t care one way or another about Rox – that might have been different if, as someone pointed out, she was actually a window into a part of Charr society we don’t often see, but she’s not – or Brahm). Don’t try to force me to be sentimental about characters – that only works for Stephen Moffat and you are not he.

Let me explore the world and come to care about the characters organically. Get me invested by having charming side characters who don’t force themselves on my attention.

And for gods’ sakes stop whinging about your feelings, Kasmeer!

(Also, if we’re looking to rec writers, may I commend Robin Hobb to your attention?)

ipan.4356:

This has to be the best thread I’ve ever read on these forums.

I have been playing GW2 for over a year now, and this is the first time I’ve heard of the “Biconics”.

I didn’t know what there were talking about either, I had to Google a Reddit post to find out.

• A-Iconics = Rytlock, Logan, Caithe, Eir, Zojja
• B-Iconics = Rox, Braham, Jory, Kas, Taimi

Apparently they were intro’d partially to avoid timeline confusion with the Personal Story PC’s.

On topic:
I think they are rather fitting to GW2’s adolescent tone.

Would it help if, between LS2 and LS3, we had a series of small story arcs that focused on each of the biconics so we could get to see them as their own, separate characters better?

• Rox gets word that the cave-in that killed her warband may not have been the accident it seemed. A gladium may not be able to get all the answers, but if she has us beside her she might get the answers she needs.

• Stories of Taimi’s adventures have spread, and some young asura have decided that “If Taimi the sickly can do it, so can we!” Now they’re in over their heads, and Taimi feels it’s her fault. With our help, she sets out to rescue them.

• Word reaches us that Brahm may have bitten off more than he can chew, and we charge in to save him. When we do, he turns on us, furious. We find out that for him, we’re the ones playing the part of Trahearne and stealing his story. Can he prove to himself and the spirits that he’s worthy while we’re there, or will his legend disappear into our shadow?

• When Kas’s family fell from nobility, many of her “friends” suddenly decided they didn’t know her. Now, one of them has contacted her, begging for help. Can she set aside the past to help? Should she? And why is the Countess lingering nearby?

• One of the few good people Marjory knew in the Ministry Guard is dead. They’re saying it was a random street thug that did it, but she doesn’t believe it. What’s really going on here, and can you help her to survive long enough to find out?

Where can I vote Shriketalon.1937 for lead narrative designer or whatever the highest story telling title is? Seriously this game would be much better off with you calling the shots, I’m so sick and tired of the living story. I’m more of a gameplay guy, caring about dungeons, WvW, sPvP, challenge or any semblance of it but I apparently picked the wrong game for that. If all we get is living story then at least give us a proper story godkitten it. I’ve waited for two years for the ‘good stuff soon’ and it’s not here, it’s probably never going to get here, so in the meanwhile give me a story not a fanfic of some characters I don’t give a spit about

Y’know what bothers me about the living story?

We had maybe a dozen characters introduced in season one which have simply fallen off the radar. We have an entire destroyed city which is still not having anything change in it.

It’s not a living world. It’s one living zone and the rest of the world is trapped in stasis, including the plot threads left dangling at the end of S1. It’s been 4 months since scarlet attacks and the bridges around LA are still not even worthy for basic travel. Come on. Come onnnn.

Skipping a lot of the content of the threads to post something slightly derailing:

I think it’s the Tailor in Lion’s Arch (at the broken waypoint), but he’s a Job-O-Tron that can respond in non-Golem English (although he has no VA).

Palador.2170:

Would it help if, between LS2 and LS3, we had a series of small story arcs that focused on each of the biconics so we could get to see them as their own, separate characters better?

• Rox gets word that the cave-in that killed her warband may not have been the accident it seemed. A gladium may not be able to get all the answers, but if she has us beside her she might get the answers she needs.

• Stories of Taimi’s adventures have spread, and some young asura have decided that “If Taimi the sickly can do it, so can we!” Now they’re in over their heads, and Taimi feels it’s her fault. With our help, she sets out to rescue them.

• Word reaches us that Brahm may have bitten off more than he can chew, and we charge in to save him. When we do, he turns on us, furious. We find out that for him, we’re the ones playing the part of Trahearne and stealing his story. Can he prove to himself and the spirits that he’s worthy while we’re there, or will his legend disappear into our shadow?

• When Kas’s family fell from nobility, many of her “friends” suddenly decided they didn’t know her. Now, one of them has contacted her, begging for help. Can she set aside the past to help? Should she? And why is the Countess lingering nearby?

• One of the few good people Marjory knew in the Ministry Guard is dead. They’re saying it was a random street thug that did it, but she doesn’t believe it. What’s really going on here, and can you help her to survive long enough to find out?

/clap

BAM! Five new dungeons, just like that

Shriketalon.1937:

Greetings and Salutations!

As the second season of the Living Story progresses, there are numerous advancements in the mechanics to celebrate, but also some troubles and tribulations. One particular burr in the sandal of the storyline shows no sign of ceasing, and thus it seems fitting to talk about a lingering problem with the narrative. The Biconics.

My thesis is simple. The story should stop treating these side characters like protagonists.

The Biconics are not bad characters. Far from it, they are fairly witty and amusing most of the time, and their interactions can be quite enjoyable. But the Living Story has decided that they are the focal point of the entire game, shackling our main characters to these five strangers and declaring them to be the protagonists of the franchise. This is flawed. It does not make sense from a narrative perspective, and it won’t do the series any favors in presenting interesting and compelling stories in the days to come.

In keeping with my oddball format, I’d like to present six reasons why the Biconics are a problem, and offer an example from the Living Story Season 1 of magnificent storytelling as a model for future tales. Rather than interject any of my own speculation or fanfiction into the mixture, I’d like you to solely consider the characters from the game itself who could be at the forefront of the narrative between these two posts.

Ready? Here we go!

I don’t get it, but, it looks intelligent so I support this post.

Shriketalon.1937:

Greetings and Salutations!

As the second season of the Living Story progresses, there are numerous advancements in the mechanics to celebrate, but also some troubles and tribulations. One particular burr in the sandal of the storyline shows no sign of ceasing, and thus it seems fitting to talk about a lingering problem with the narrative. The Biconics.

My thesis is simple. The story should stop treating these side characters like protagonists.

The Biconics are not bad characters. Far from it, they are fairly witty and amusing most of the time, and their interactions can be quite enjoyable. But the Living Story has decided that they are the focal point of the entire game, shackling our main characters to these five strangers and declaring them to be the protagonists of the franchise. This is flawed. It does not make sense from a narrative perspective, and it won’t do the series any favors in presenting interesting and compelling stories in the days to come.

In keeping with my oddball format, I’d like to present six reasons why the Biconics are a problem, and offer an example from the Living Story Season 1 of magnificent storytelling as a model for future tales. Rather than interject any of my own speculation or fanfiction into the mixture, I’d like you to solely consider the characters from the game itself who could be at the forefront of the narrative between these two posts.

Ready? Here we go!

I loved every second of this, and I 2k% agree with Ho-Ho-Tron being the best character in the entire game. The entire GAME.

Man I was so peeved when Seraph were giving him a hard time during last Queens Jubilee.

Omar Aschi Popp.7496:

I loved every second of this, and I 2k% agree with Ho-Ho-Tron being the best character in the entire game. The entire GAME.

. . . not the Mad King Thorn? I actually think I like him more than I did before when hanging around Kamadan.

Hey Tobias,

And you know what, I’ve never managed to be able to be around for Halloween in GW2 since launch. I didn’t care for the Spamadan shenanigans… I’ll be sure to be around this fall!

Most of it is with the “Shadow of the Mad King” dungeon (which was good fun for being a glorified boss battle), but some of the stuff with his realm is fun too. I think it’s the voice which seals the deal, reading the really bad puns with total conviction.

lol, nice post.
Sorry, i can’t resist posting this.

Arghore.8340:

But I still somewhat agree, the scope feels somewhat narrow, and I personally suspect that as the general story progresses we will loose some people in our group… Taimi likely to go back ‘to school’, Kasmeer being reinstated and Marjory choosing to stick close to her. Giving some room for fresh blood, it mean, it has to, or else the story would go stale…

Indeed. Incidentally, this would actually be the perfect time for the Biconics to bow out of the storyline.

Kasmeer now has a place in the royal court. Marjory would be an ideal candidate for this investigative task force the Queen is crafting. Taimi has been horribly shaken from her recent ordeal and needs time to recuperate, as well as a chance to prove her intellect in order to one-up Phlunt and prove she created her device. Braham is coming into his own and realizing he can be proud of his heritage in the Shiverpeaks, and Rox has a potentially epic quest searching for her senpai/possible sibling.

Meanwhile, we return to the Pact just in time for it to get wiped out by a dragon. But that’s another story suggestion entirely.

Sarrs.4831:

Y’know what bothers me about the living story?

We had maybe a dozen characters introduced in season one which have simply fallen off the radar. We have an entire destroyed city which is still not having anything change in it.

I agree 100%.

My personal favorite example would be Ellyna Graidy. After rescuing her from Lion’s Arch and promising to return to help her father, who stayed behind to help guide more refugees, discover he perished in the attack. His teachings as a priest of Dwayna instructing his daughter in the same path clash with her profound sorrow and bitter hatred not only of Scarlet, but of all Sylvari by affiliation. So now we have a character driven by terrible loss to question her previous beliefs, the ideals of compassion and caring instilled by her teachings clashing with malice and resentment brought on by tragedy. If ever there was an embodiment of the crisis of faith within humanity in the silence of the Six Gods, it is Ellyna.

Shpongle.6025:

I don’t get it, but, it looks intelligent so I support this post.

…….I’ll….take that as a compliment? Thanks.

Palador.2170:

Would it help if, between LS2 and LS3, we had a series of small story arcs that focused on each of the biconics so we could get to see them as their own, separate characters better?

I don’t believe so. Sorry.

See, the problem with the stories described is that it means an enormous amount of time spent solely on making five character more important. If you give each of them their own release, you’re looking at several months spent solely on fluffing out the Biconics (unless each story takes multiple releases, in which case you’re looking at nearly half the year). And at the end of it all, the only thing we’ll get out of it is more fluff for the five characters given the spotlight. In other words, the reason to give them center stage is so that they can get character development, and the reason to care so much about their character development is that they’re the ones at center stage.

The game should be much bigger than that, and the story should encompass far more of the living and breathing world in order to bring it to life. Not only that, but it greatly benefits the game when the stories coincide with tangible gameplay improvements. To pull a few short story examples out of a hat…

The Secret of the Sorceror’s Spire
The eldritch tower hanging over Kessex Hills has remained a mystery for centuries…but no longer. As elementals break free of their bonds and rampage across the region, it’s up to wandering heroes brought together by circumstance to reach the top of the shining spire and unveil Isgarren’s great enigma. Introduces the Isgarren’s Spire dungeon.

Featuring: Crusader Hiroki, Sergeant Bigsby, Professor Gorr, Peacemaker Gezzi, Iowerth, and Firstborn Niamh.

Ghost Ship of Lady Glaive
A dark wind blows across the Sea of Sorrows. Wreckage of trade vessels litters the coastline, and terror-stricken survivors whisper of a horror stalking the sea lanes, the ghostly flagship of the deadliest corsair in history. But specters do not return to the lands of the living of the living after hundreds of years of their own accord. Something has brought the Lady Glaive back from the dead, a weapon of greed and avarice that will drown the coast in a sea of blood. Finishes the revamp of LA and updates and expands the Bloodtide Coast.

Featuring Marjory Delequa, Captain Ellen Kiel, Captain Magnus, Evon Gnashblade, Commodore Marriner, and Captain Anne Reid.

Into The Gray
The bitter cold of the Icebrood’s grip still clenches the ancient Norn homelands, where four spirits stood their ground to save the race against Jormag’s wrath. But whispers in the wind have revealed a great secret to the Havrouns of Hoelbrak. One of the four still lives, though any attempt to rescue the great spirit would be utterly insane. Fortunately, this band of heroes is fresh out of sanity, and a mad plan is hatched to reactivate a long-lost Asura gate, cutting straight to the Hall of Monuments. New northern map.

Featuring Wolfborn Sigfast and Skarti, Havroun Valda, Dougal Keane, Shaman Ulgadis, and the Wolverine Spirit.

The Magnanimous Seven
An isolated little town in Ascalon is engulfed in a Blightstorm, completely cut off from the rest of the world. Desperate for supplies and shelter, the starving forces of the Renegade and Separtist bands turn hungry eyes and sharpened blades towards the small hamlet. The peaceful ranchers and craftsman are ill prepared for the looming conflict that encroaches upon their doorstep and turn to seven heroes brought together by pure circumstance to save them from annihilation. Updates and improves Ascalonian regions.

Featuring Ember Doomforge, Laranthir of the Wild, Wynnet Fairhaired, Sayeh al’Rajihd, Genzhou Talonrend, and Eilyne Jeyne.

The Fancy Feline Finalists Have Been Catnapped!
Travesty! Despair! Lamentations! Bandits have attacked the Faren’s Fancy Feline finale and absconded with its prize felines! This is truly Divinity’s Reach’s darkest hour! But as our heroes stumble upon agents of the Shining Blade deploying across the city, this seemingly simple catnapping caper shows a far more sinister undercurrent. The fancy feline’s would-be saviors must first unveil a strange secret….why does the Shining Blade care so much about cats?

Featuring Lord Faren, Exemplars Mehid and Salia, Demmi Beetlestone, the Minister and Lady Wi, and Chauncey von Snuffles III.

Ignoring the cliches and quality issues of the stuff I just wrote, the story shouldn’t be about one single character. By using the world of Tyria itself as the main source of inspiration, the writers can tell numerous tails across the realm that expand on gameplay and flesh out interesting nuances of the game, combining them with brand new mechanics and improved content. Because that’s how we’ll get beyond just five characters and actually see what is beyond the literary horizon.

I feel like they should give us the option of deciding our dialogue if someone important ever asks “What’ve you been doing?” or “Why aren’t you helping the pact?”

Maybe some options like:
1. “The Pact’s been busy, but I was given a vacation after leading the assault on Zhaitan. Sadly, I just couldn’t sit still.”
2. “The Pact can handle itself. I prefer adventuring, so I decided to take a leave. Trahaerne approved.”
3. “Um… Haha… Well, y’know… I kinda got bored after Zhaitan left. There just wasn’t enough people would bother asking me to do.”

Dondagora.9645:

I feel like they should give us the option of deciding our dialogue if someone important ever asks “What’ve you been doing?” or “Why aren’t you helping the pact?”

Maybe some options like:
1. “The Pact’s been busy, but I was given a vacation after leading the assault on Zhaitan. Sadly, I just couldn’t sit still.”
2. “The Pact can handle itself. I prefer adventuring, so I decided to take a leave. Trahaerne approved.”
3. “Um… Haha… Well, y’know… I kinda got bored after Zhaitan left. There just wasn’t enough people would bother asking me to do.”

I want the dialogue option:
“You know, now that you’re asking, I don’t fricking know. I wanted to take a short break, got involved with some people and now they’re following me like puppies…
But I will go back to the pact immediately to gather a group of elite fighters to repel Mordremoth and to lead the pact to victory once again.”

Shriketalon.1937:

The Secret of the Sorceror’s Spire

Ghost Ship of Lady Glaive

Into The Gray

The Magnanimous Seven

The Fancy Feline Finalists Have Been Catnapped!

This stuff was pretty interesting and I like the fact that we get to see a lot of different characters fleshed out. I know some people who are really fond of Professor Gorr. Why aren’t you the lead writer of this game again?

Uuni.3561:

Why aren’t you the lead writer of this game again?

Same reason I’m not . . . nobody likely knows either of us exists as far as writing goes.

Eh. I think we can agree we need to see more of the world. The zones, and the general lore rather then the 5 characters and their point of view of the story.
They have their places but in a Massive Multyplayer Open World Game the world should be the priority.

I guess we’ve come to this point when people started to pretend to be at the center of the spotlight all the time in a massive game like this.

The biconics should have remained in season one.

Season two should have had a completely new cast with the occasional cameo from a season one character. The biconics are a horrid reminder of the failure of season one and are essentially tainting the improved season two with their tiresome personal stories and irritating character flaws/traits.

Arena Net, do not be afraid to kill off/replace poorly conceived or disliked characters.

Shriketalon.1937:

The Magnanimous Seven
An isolated little town in Ascalon is engulfed in a Blightstorm, completely cut off from the rest of the world. Desperate for supplies and shelter, the starving forces of the Renegade and Separtist bands turn hungry eyes and sharpened blades towards the small hamlet. The peaceful ranchers and craftsman are ill prepared for the looming conflict that encroaches upon their doorstep and turn to seven heroes brought together by pure circumstance to save them from annihilation. Updates and improves Ascalonian regions.

Featuring Ember Doomforge, Laranthir of the Wild, Wynnet Fairhaired, Sayeh al’Rajihd, Genzhou Talonrend, and Eilyne Jeyne.

I’m going to need you to take all of my money at this point.

Would I love a Magnificent Seven/Seven Samurai homage in any game, even Tetris? Absolutely, but this is the type of injection of new ideas that the game desperately needs right now. Most of the concepts you’re describing are not unlike the way The Secret World releases “Issues” that feature exclusive quest lines, skins, accessories, titles, etc. Guild Wars 2 could make serious money doing the same, and we could get an opportunity to go back and see some characters we’ve known and loved (or hated.)

I thought the idea of us stepping on Braham’s toes was also clever. One of the things that ArenaNet lacks, though, is bite. Every aspect of the game, from balancing, to new content, to story, is rather toothless, and nothing about that has changed since launch.

Snowmoon.1758:

lol, nice post.
Sorry, i can’t resist posting this.

I’ve been reading/skimming through this thread (it’s a lot of reading, I can’t and wont read all of it), but this had me laughing way too much.

This is my favorite thread. It has a very good discussion, it let’s me know I’m not alone with my views and am relieved to know that many others share them regarding the LS (LA deserved a better villain than Scarlet, Biconics really do need to take a back seat, and why am I as the pact commander not just straight up going Zhaitan on Mordremoth). I don’t have much to contribute to this thread because the majority of you already got it covered, but keep it up. You have redeemed the refuse that is this forum