Guild Wars 2

Honestly ever since they came into existance I wondered something: How are we suppose to fight something so gargantuan? Well we got our answer in “Vicrory or Death”, where we fought Zhaitan and we hated it.
I even made a topic once on why do we even bother fighting them when technology seems to be the answer? I wrote that we could just build something like a nuclear silo and blast the dragon lairs into oblivion. Considering they are corrupted and uninhabitable anyway who cares about things like radiation?
So then we got Mordremoth and it turned out he would “regrow” if we just destroyed the whole jungle. But fortunately for us we got the “weakness” deus ex machina and we killed Mordremoth by destroying his mind. But it only raised questions like what was Zhaitan’s weakness? Battleships? I know people say it’s “unity” or that we weakened him before the fight etc but really give me a break with all that.

So when episode 2 came out I made a topic that we will probably fight another dragon during season 3, as there isn’t much material to work with at this point. Well it seems I was kinda right, but the result was the worst one yet.
It turned out Jormag and Primordus cancel each other out and again we got a machine to do the job of destroying them both. Only this time it was literally a deus ex machina.
Since we got an actual God attached to it.
Oh ANET don’t you know a literal deus ex machina came out of style in 2003?

Well I guess they simply gave up on the main antagonists and how to fight them at this point, as we got rid of 2 of them in one go.
So 2 Elder Dragons are dead and 2 are asleep and since we can’t kill any more of them, we will have to put the remaining 2 to sleep too. Or you know what? Forget it, let’s just go full nonsense and befriend them. I mean Snaff was able to control Kralkatorrik with his invention, so let’s just do the same only we will go full pro with it.

I seriously think that even the game mechanics suffered because of the Elder Dragons.
Back in GW1 we had lots of types of damage, but if they existed in GW2 too it would be problematic. Take Jormag and Primordus being each others “weakness” as example, some classes would be better or worse at fighting them. However Elementalists would have the unfair advantage as they could use all 4 types of elemental damage in GW1 i.e. fire, cold, shock, earth. In Gw1 cold damage was effective agains fiery creatures such as Destroyers, while fire damage was effective against icy creatures. Other classes usually could only do 1 type of elemental damage, like Necromancers could do cold damage too, so they would do well against Primordus but not Jormag. On the other hand they were also masters of armour ignoring damage which was a “good for all” thing.
But the biggest offenders would in fact be Guardians at the beginning of GW2, because they evolved from Monks. And Monks could use holy damage, which not only ignored armour too but also delt double damage against undead. So yeah the Arah dungeon and rest of Orr events would have been “Guardians only” as other classes would have been a joke compared to them.
So yeah best solution was removing damage types and merging everything into one, but because of this we lack creativity and all we do is compete in who has the biggest DPS. In Gw1 it was situational as many other things had to be taken into account. Not to mention in GW1 you could hit unlimited amount of foes with your aoe attacks, which is also why we fought platoons instead of thin lines which we kill off one by one.

But yeah it was a bad idea from the start, their size and the fact they each represent an “element” only created problems. Thus the whole plot is a failure and if you are still hoping it will get better at this point you are just delusional.

I don’t think they were a bad idea, conceptually – the idea of a great, primal force working in the background is a pretty solid one. I think the issue started when these ancient, seemingly Lovecraftian Beings were treated like something we could actually take down. If the Dragons were the background and stories were going on around them, there’s a chance it could have worked so much better. We could no more destroy them, than we could a hurricane. Once Zhaitan went down, they lost a lot of their mystique and awe for many people.

The flip side was if we are going to kill them, kill them sequentially. It’s a bit more predictable, but well structured campaigns could have been set up against them.

Instead, we’ve ended up with a bit of everything without any clear idea what direction those writing the story are trying to go in. This whole weakness or pairing Dragons off against each other feels like adding a convoluted layer unnecessarily. Fantasy doesn’t always need all that to work.

At this stage, the story is so all over the place, it’s a wonder they’ll be able to put it on track at all. I’m happy to delude myself there will be a recovery, but I do understand the wider and continued frustrations.

Rikimaru.7890:

But it only raised questions like what was Zhaitan’s weakness? Battleships? I know people say it’s “unity” or that we weakened him before the fight etc but really give me a break with all that.

Undeath is the breaking of the Life-Death-Rebirth cycle. Remember when we helped Trahearne use Caladbolg to purify Orr? We restarted that cycle for Orr, and set it on the path to slow but steady recovery. We basically poisoned the land against him.

If we had killed him without doing that, it’s entirely likely that he could have just recreated himself out of Orr, just as Mordremoth could have recreated himself out of the Maguuma Wilds.

I think the OP is confused about what a Deus ex Machina means for storytelling. It was used in Greek performances when they rolled out an actual machine that would get the hero out of trouble, a machine that had never existed in the story line.

In contrast, technology of some sort has existing in the GW universe for a long time. Zhaitan’s weakness was introduced early in the personal story, which is why we defeat the Mouth & the Eye before confronting the actual dragon. The Zhaitan fight was… weak because the devs ran out of time before the game launched, and thus implemented a watered-down version of the originally intended battle — but the tech was introduced well before.

Similarly, Mordemoth’s weakness was foreshadowed early on, as was the idea that the dragons have weaknesses that the Pact and the Commander could exploit. Primordus’ and Jormag’s strengths are well known; their weaknesses were foreshadowed.

And although Omadd’s machine has been repurposed beyond its ability to show the dragons and the magic they consume, it’s consistently been a tool in the fight & understanding of how magic & dragons exist in the GW universe. It’s not that much different to me from how a battery can absorb energy.

I understand that one might not enjoy the way in which the story was told. That doesn’t mean that there’s a fundamental flaw in the ideas used to tell it.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the OP is confused about what a Deus ex Machina means for storytelling. It was used in Greek performances when they rolled out an actual machine that would get the hero out of trouble, a machine that had never existed in the story line.

In contrast, technology of some sort has existing in the GW universe for a long time. Zhaitan’s weakness was introduced early in the personal story, which is why we defeat the Mouth & the Eye before confronting the actual dragon. The Zhaitan fight was… weak because the devs ran out of time before the game launched, and thus implemented a watered-down version of the originally intended battle — but the tech was introduced well before.

Similarly, Mordemoth’s weakness was foreshadowed early on, as was the idea that the dragons have weaknesses that the Pact and the Commander could exploit. Primordus’ and Jormag’s strengths are well known; their weaknesses were foreshadowed.

And although Omadd’s machine has been repurposed beyond its ability to show the dragons and the magic they consume, it’s consistently been a tool in the fight & understanding of how magic & dragons exist in the GW universe. It’s not that much different to me from how a battery can absorb energy.

I understand that one might not enjoy the way in which the story was told. That doesn’t mean that there’s a fundamental flaw in the ideas used to tell it.

Actually it seems that you are the one who doesn’t know what a “Deus Ex Machina” is. It means “God from the Machine” which is a cheap plot device that usually saves the main character in an unexpected way. In Greece they used “divine intervention” to save the main character when they found themselves in a situation they cannot solve on their own. And the actors that played the Gods would be lifted using machines when they made their devine intervention, hence “God from the Machine”.
This plot device now refers to anything that the main characters have no control over, but allows them to find a solution to their problem. Hence the Elder Dragons having a “weakness” is a Deus Ex Machina. Same goes for putting Primordus and Jormag back into slumber, as it is a convenient and unexpected result, because it solves both problems of them eating everyone and that we can no longer kill any more of them.

Force of nature villains are not an inherently bad idea, but the execution will make or break them much more easily than other types of villains. In the case of the dragons I’d say they were broken as they are some of the most boring pieces of lore ever introduced into the guild wars setting.

To put it like this: Killing and beating elder dragons do not feel like I’m doing heroic and adventurous work, it feels like I’m going around clearing weeds out of my lawn since they engage and interact with my character just about as much. Although clearing weeds out of my lawn is a tad more engaging and I at least get a physical workout out of it.

Rikimaru.7890:

Actually it seems that you are the one who doesn’t know what a “Deus Ex Machina” is. It means “God from the Machine” which is a cheap plot device that usually saves the main character in an unexpected way. In Greece they used “divine intervention” to save the main character when they found themselves in a situation they cannot solve on their own. And the actors that played the Gods would be lifted using machines when they made their devine intervention, hence “God from the Machine”.
This plot device now refers to anything that the main characters have no control over, but allows them to find a solution to their problem. Hence the Elder Dragons having a “weakness” is a Deus Ex Machina. Same goes for putting Primordus and Jormag back into slumber, as it is a convenient and unexpected result, because it solves both problems of them eating everyone and that we can no longer kill any more of them.

There is more than one sort of “bad plot device” — it isn’t a Deus Ex Machina just because it involves a machine.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

There is more than one sort of “bad plot device” — it isn’t a Deus Ex Machina just because it involves a machine.

It was supposed to be a funny play upon words (i.e., a pun), but hey.

I also like to think that, during the personal story there are hints that are later being used against zhaitan.
Zhaitan eats the magic, and corrupts this, and from what I understood is, our cannon isn’t simply a battery with a shot, we actually take zhaitan’s magic, “purify it” (or something else, and fire it back at him. I always felt that we were using the concept of “greed and gluttony” against him.

MeroeTheLamia.2384:

Force of nature villains are not an inherently bad idea, but the execution will make or break them much more easily than other types of villains. In the case of the dragons I’d say they were broken as they are some of the most boring pieces of lore ever introduced into the guild wars setting.

With force of nature villains, the antagonist or conflict that has narrative oomph is going to involve the people fighting against it — their conflicts or weaknesses, their triumphs, and so on. So, the real villain might be those people who threaten to get everyone else killed, whether due to panic, greed, ignorance, unwillingness to cooperate, desire to be in control, senseless desire for bureaucracy, etc.

perilisk.1874:

MeroeTheLamia.2384:

Force of nature villains are not an inherently bad idea, but the execution will make or break them much more easily than other types of villains. In the case of the dragons I’d say they were broken as they are some of the most boring pieces of lore ever introduced into the guild wars setting.

With force of nature villains, the antagonist or conflict that has narrative oomph is going to involve the people fighting against it — their conflicts or weaknesses, their triumphs, and so on. So, the real villain might be those people who threaten to get everyone else killed, whether due to panic, greed, ignorance, unwillingness to cooperate, desire to be in control, senseless desire for bureaucracy, etc.

Which is things you can have even when you have real antagonists. So a Force Of Nature villain doesn’t really bring much to the table beyond “We don’t need to write an interesting villain and can now be really lazy yay!”. Slight exaggaration on my part, but its just how I feel about such type of villains these days since I can barely think of any that was at all interesting.