Guild Wars 2

I am just wondering what the next dragon battle will be like.

Will it be a world event like Teq? Instanced?

What do you think would be the best way to engage Mordremoth?

Standing still on the deck of an airship while shooting weed killer at it and in no danger whatsoever.

If past experience fighting Elder Dragons serves for future expectations.

If past experience is any indication, we may have to wait 2 more years till we finally fight another Elder Dragon…. if at all.

I really cannot see there being any sense of continuity if the Elder Dragon fights were open world.

However, I could see them introducing Squad-based raid instances in the future, especially with how many players bought a Commander tag before the change, and using such kinds of instances for fights like the Marionette/Prime Hologram/Tower of Nightmares being made a permanent dungeon/instance, or for future Elder Dragons.

Alternatively, I hope fighting Mordremoth will be more akin to Turai’s Story in GW1’s Bonus Mission Pack – you’re part of a small unit going straight for the head while the main army distracts the enemy. Mordremoth’s being hinted at literally being rooted to the ground so I wouldn’t expect a large aerial battle with him.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I really cannot see there being any sense of continuity if the Elder Dragon fights were open world.

However, I could see them introducing Squad-based raid instances in the future, especially with how many players bought a Commander tag before the change, and using such kinds of instances for fights like the Marionette/Prime Hologram/Tower of Nightmares being made a permanent dungeon/instance, or for future Elder Dragons.

Alternatively, I hope fighting Mordremoth will be more akin to Turai’s Story in GW1’s Bonus Mission Pack – you’re part of a small unit going straight for the head while the main army distracts the enemy. Mordremoth’s being hinted at literally being rooted to the ground so I wouldn’t expect a large aerial battle with him.

This is an amazing idea, lived Turais story. Anet should employ you =P

Ehhh, you do realize that that might mean you’d have to pay to fight the Elder Dragon, right? By all means, lets not make it too much like the bonus mission pack! Lets not give them any ideas!

For the mordremoth fight, I think it really should be instances just like the zhaitan fight and all the other elder dragon fights should be in my opinion. I am not sure why I just don’t think 100 people killing or trying to kill an ED would be the right atmosphere for it (like if you fail he will just be back in another hour). The dungeon gives the sense that what you do really maters.
On another note if we were to fight a champion like. The shadow of the dragon that should be a teq difficulty open world fight like all the other dragon champ fights.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ehhh, you do realize that that might mean you’d have to pay to fight the Elder Dragon, right? By all means, lets not make it too much like the bonus mission pack! Lets not give them any ideas!

No matter how many poor design decisions they’re making, their management – I hope – is not stupid enough to make the climax of the story a must-pay-for experience.

But then again, they did flub up the climax of the personal story just now.

If it isn’t some new design – like a squad-based raid instance – then it should be an explorable dungeon. NOT story mode. That’s one of the biggest issues I have with Arah – sure it may mean that we have to complete a story mode, but that could easily be a “clearing out the foothold of the dragon’s lair” kind of plot, while the explorable mode focuses on the Elder Dragon in a manner akin to original Twilight Arbor or Crucible of Eternity explorable (three/four paths to the same end fight that differs based on your path). In Arah, my biggest issue other than the fight with Zhaitan itself (and the nerf to uberpatheticville that it became) was that a minion from the previous rise (Giganticus Lupicus) is insanely more difficult than the Elder Dragon itself.

If you ask me, the story mode of Arah should have been to establish that foothold on Dragonblast Basilica (or w/e the name of the area you fight the Mouth of Zhaitan was). And the explorable mode is you fighting through a series of champions via one of three/four paths to the end outcome: Zhaitan, who’d be the strongest fight.

Yes, it’d enforce an explorable mode, which will indeed be tough, to be part of the main story and a requirement to complete said main story… but who cares? Not everything can be made easy mode for QQ’ing casuals.

But then again, I love games like Dark Souls.

I really want to believe that ArenaNet WILL deliver at least somewhat satisfying fight with Mordremoth. The Players need to fight a dragon, heck, this is what the game was supposed to be about.

I don’t want to see the story’s finale being like one of these:
- Taimi ex machina (Taimi ingeniously uses Scarlet’s research to block/redirect magic from ley-lines and Mordy dies from hunger or goes back to sleep for Lyssa knows how long. Yay, Asura save the day, have a cookie, Commander of the Pact.
- Marjory Angst Machine (Marjory injects poisonous stuff into Ley Line with an Asura ex machina, stuff that may or may not be developed by Canach, because there must be a Sylvari stealing the spotlight :P> Mordy gets poisoned and dies. Cue Marjory and Kasmeer kiss, Rox and Braham hold hands, Taimi is happy, Commander is not)

Ok, enough joking. People really hope for a direct fight with the Elder Dragons, even if it should be using some airship/giant Charr flamethrower/etc. Heck, I’d be happy even if it would mean I have to 1111111 him to death – at least it wouldn’t be any Biconic stealing mah glory…

I just hope they don’t dumb down anything else… plenty of stuff for casuals or people who dislike difficulty. I guess most of the content is only “hard” in the sense of farming, but combat difficulty is very low. :/

suffish.4150:

For the mordremoth fight, I think it really should be instances just like the zhaitan fight and all the other elder dragon fights should be in my opinion. I am not sure why I just don’t think 100 people killing or trying to kill an ED would be the right atmosphere for it (like if you fail he will just be back in another hour). The dungeon gives the sense that what you do really maters..

Because reserving content like this for the elite hardcore, the small minority able to play such content, is a Good Thing to do, right?

I want to be able to run up the back of a moving elder dragon. That would be awesome.

I expected the fight against Zhaitan, on the airship, to set up the final fight with him later in a dungeon/raid of its own. Of course the airship-portion was still lame, but we now have an Elder Dragon crippled and on the ground, but it still needs to be dealt with.

I think that would have made more sense from a game-play perspective that you have a crack troop of adventurers going in on foot to deal with it up close and personal. How exactly you would deliver the final blow on a creature of that size with toothpicks is the dilemma that plagues all the Elder Dragons in my opinion.

“You do not simply walk into Mordor.”

When I play the game and recently I have been going through Fields of Ruin and Blazeridge Steppes, I realize that fighting an Elder Dragon head on amounts to suicide. If an army stood in the path of Kralkatorrik as it flew south and created the Brand, it would have been as futile as trying to stop an earthquake, a tsunami or something of that nature. If the loading screen is any indication of Kralkatorrik`s size, that alone leaves out any conventional means of fighting him, or thwart him momentarily, and then its only a brief respite.

As far as the Living Story goes, it should lead to the doorstep of the final confrontation with Mordremoth, but not actually resolve it. That is what the player character is there for after all, to deal with this kind of thing. As well as other capable individuals. I would have preferred if our choice of Order during the PS carried over into the LS and saw us working alongside npc`s of said Order and Pact npc`s as opposed to the biconics. I do not mind them being there, but why they are considered so important to the overall plight of Tyria that they are working with the Commander of the Pact is currently beyond me. But I am getting off topic. In brief though, seeing the Pact make progress through Maguuma much the same as in Orr preparing for the final assault would be a welcome approach, and having different ways of doing so depending on your Order.

I`m just tossing ideas as I go, but bottom line is I would prefer a proper dungeon/raid that sets up the fight properly. What a proper boss fight would be is another matter that its beyond me at the time of writing to answer.

I want something similar to the final fight against Scarlett on the Breachmaker in Lion’s Arch – mostly open world with some instanced content to finish it off/make it more personalized.

To get around the idea of a one time event, the dragon fight should be its on map – with tons of pre events and a fineal fight – with the cycle repeating similar to how Dry Top works now.

Open world dragon would be pretty nice to have in between seasons. A whole area dedicated to “weakening” the dragon who would once every so often “wake up” to fight the masses. I’d still like to have the dragon there AFTER we kill it though.

Blaeys.3102:

I want something similar to the final fight against Scarlett on the Breachmaker in Lion’s Arch – mostly open world with some instanced content to finish it off/make it more personalized.

To get around the idea of a one time event, the dragon fight should be its on map – with tons of pre events and a fineal fight – with the cycle repeating similar to how Dry Top works now.

Okay, sure, but what happens in a year when no one wants to d oall those pre-events and the final fight? But you have, say, 4 people wanting to beat Mordremoth?

You’d be blocking the end of the fight to these people unless they manage to get a guild going through it.

Kraggy.4169:

suffish.4150:

For the mordremoth fight, I think it really should be instances just like the zhaitan fight and all the other elder dragon fights should be in my opinion. I am not sure why I just don’t think 100 people killing or trying to kill an ED would be the right atmosphere for it (like if you fail he will just be back in another hour). The dungeon gives the sense that what you do really maters..

Because reserving content like this for the elite hardcore, the small minority able to play such content, is a Good Thing to do, right?

Yes, reserving content like fighting a world-threatening, ancient, immortal entity should be reserved for people with skill.

And not shooting fish in a significantly small barrel.

That being said, dungeons are hardly “for the elite hardcore”.

What I would like to see, is for the Elder Dragon to be either at the end of a dungeon, or be part of a permanent event chain in an explorable. Make it a massive battle, like against Tequatl.

Permanent content

I don’t like these temporary battles, they are rubbish. So make this one permanent. The dev team goes through all the time and trouble to create these massive experiences (Twisted Marionette, Breachmaker Battle, Molten Facility), and then it’s shuffled into the garbage bag a few weeks later. What a horrid waste of time and resources! And what happened to the Molten Facility was also dreadful. They cut it up, butchered the original design, and slapped it into Fractals of the Mist. I feel sorry for the original designer of the dungeon. For Grenth’s sake Anet, plan ahead! If you add content to the game, make sure it’s content that can remain, and that builds on existing content. The game should be expanding, not shrinking.

Personal battle

I dislike battles where we indirectly fight the boss through the use of giant Asura lasers, and I like them even less if it’s the npc’s that activate said lasers. I want to be the one pressing the buttons, if any. But I’d rather be fighting the Elder Dragon directly, and hitting him in the face. And when we defeat him, I do not want him to fly off, I want him to DIE!

Pretty sure that was Robert Hrouda. He made a tweet back then that suggested the Molten Facility (or was it the Aetherblade Retreat?) being the last dungeon he worked on before he left ANet.

Zaxares.5419:

Pretty sure that was Robert Hrouda. He made a tweet back then that suggested the Molten Facility (or was it the Aetherblade Retreat?) being the last dungeon he worked on before he left ANet.

I believe you’re right. I feel sorry for him. Many people do not know this, but I’m a level designer myself. And it just breaks my heart to see a well designed dungeon be cut up in pieces like this, with the original flow of the level completely ruined. And this did not need to be like this. They could have easily made the Molten Facility a permanent addition to the world, by repopulating it with a new faction, or simply leaving it as is, as an instance. They just needed to plan ahead. It seems as if they didn’t think at all about what to do with the dungeon after the Living Story chapter was over. Such a shame.

Cut Scenes

Cut scenes suck. Not all of them, but right before, or during a boss battle they suck. This was especially true for the Zhaitan battle. All of that should have been in game, instead of taking control from the player, and showing it all from a birds eye view. I realize that it may have been done due to dead lines, and technical limitations. But still, I’m not a fan of it. Allow us to experience the whole boss battle from our own perspective. You do not need to shove the camera down the nostrils of the Elder Dragon for us to pay attention to his elaborate death animation. We’ll look at it if we choose to, or we’ll look the other way. Don’t force it on us, it breaks immersion.

On the bright side, we may see the Molten Facility and Aetherblade Retreat return in their full glory if/when ANet brings back the LS S1 content as permanent content.

I’m still wondering how they intend to make that work, since both are group content. Hopefully they find a way to resolve this issue, instead of dropping them completely.

The Personal Story already ends in a group content dungeon. I don’t see an issue with making group content scattered throughout future content, personally. I’d imagine Season 2 will end that way, and I think it’d be weird to see Season 1 implemented without Twisted Marionette/Prime Hologram being group content too.

Though if they bring back the Twisted Marionette, I really hope that it comes back as a Guild Boss battle (as well) – no placement on the timer, just can only spawn as guild boss battle. I’d love the same for Prime Holo, but I find that hard to impossible to implement.

Maybe we should make this topic so that it has some organized feedback, so that ArenaNet staff would at least notice this – I think it’s rather not how we want the future Elder Dragon battles to look like. It’s more like what we do NOT want to see (like any cheesy way to kill an almost eldritch abomination that they could pull off)…

Yeah, I’ve always advocated having the Marionette return as a new mega world boss, similar to Tequatl and the Wurm. In terms of difficulty, it’s harder than Karka Queen, but not as hard as Tequatl (although arguably a greater level of organisation is needed).

Well one thing the Marionette did right, was allow a huge number of players to fight her, while splitting them up into smaller teams, and then splitting them up again into even smaller teams. This allowed each player to feel like the battle was personal. It was just you and a few allies against one boss (while fighting on the platforms obviously).

This is something I’d welcome for the Elder Dragon battles as well. This massive feeling, where the battle still feels personal. A battle where regardless of the huge number of players participating, one player can still feel like she made a difference.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well one thing the Marionette did right, was allow a huge number of players to fight her, while splitting them up into smaller teams, and then splitting them up again into even smaller teams. This allowed each player to feel like the battle was personal. It was just you and a few allies against one boss (while fighting on the platforms obviously).

This is something I’d welcome for the Elder Dragon battles as well. This massive feeling, where the battle still feels personal. A battle where regardless of the huge number of players participating, one player can still feel like she made a difference.

The bad part about that is that is not a sustainable method for content. People went in huge numbers to that event because it was temporary, had decent loot, and was the main focus of that game at that time.

This will not be the last elder dragon (although I highly many people stick around two more years for another one). So when the next dragon comes along you would be unable to have massive groups to take down an elder dragon. Heck, it’s a challenge to get a group for Arah sometimes even after the megaserver.

But I hate to say it guys. I do not have high hopes for ANET when it comes to these Elder Dragon fights. If it’s too hard people will not do it because this game targets casual gamers.

Lets remember Zhaitan is unfinished. There is supposed to be a whole second portion to that fight taking place at the Dragon’s Lair POI that we’ve never seen.

You guys are so full of hope.
don’t wanna be near you when figuring out that you get a textbox to kill the future dragons.

Taimi: Kill the aweful beast

- Yes
- No
- Maybe later (Go on to next textbox)

I foresee two far more likely scenarios:

Scenario 1: One year from now we still have no new Elder Dragon.

Scenario 2: We have a boss battle where an Asura laser, operated by Destiny’s Edge 2.0 defeats (not kills) the elder dragon for us, while we fight its minions. Then it flies off.

I wouldn’t mind a permanent “fight off Mordemoth” event chain in this season of LS and a dungeon about killing it later on. Essentially Malafide’s scenario 2, except please no Asuran lasers anymore. Usually I think letting players kill the boss is better, but Mordy is supposed to be a very powerful force of nature, so killing it in a single phase could be disappointing.

I do of course not know what the exact limits of GW2’s engine are. But I would like to be able to fight body parts of the Elder Dragon. It’s ultimately far more satisfying to be actually hitting a dragon, than to fire some laser at it, and seeing something scripted take over from there.

And I agree, it shouldn’t die just in one phase. There should be many stages to an Elder Dragon fight. But Anet sure hasn’t made it easy on themselves, by making the Elder Dragons so huge. That poses a lot of design problems.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Alternatively, I hope fighting Mordremoth will be more akin to Turai’s Story in GW1’s Bonus Mission Pack – you’re part of a small unit going straight for the head while the main army distracts the enemy.

My thoughts exactly. The final showdown between Turai and Popo Joker was some of Anet’s finest work to date.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mordremoth’s being hinted at literally being rooted to the ground so I wouldn’t expect a large aerial battle with him.

Hang on… Not so fast…. This is our Anet we’re talking about here afterall.

I want to become the dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I really cannot see there being any sense of continuity if the Elder Dragon fights were open world.

However, I could see them introducing Squad-based raid instances in the future, especially with how many players bought a Commander tag before the change, and using such kinds of instances for fights like the Marionette/Prime Hologram/Tower of Nightmares being made a permanent dungeon/instance, or for future Elder Dragons.

Alternatively, I hope fighting Mordremoth will be more akin to Turai’s Story in GW1’s Bonus Mission Pack – you’re part of a small unit going straight for the head while the main army distracts the enemy. Mordremoth’s being hinted at literally being rooted to the ground so I wouldn’t expect a large aerial battle with him.

This ^.

One of the things I and allot of others I know wish GW2 had was instanced group content for groups larger then 5.

Heck they could make the difficulty & rewards scale up the more people you have.

Would be great to fight an elder dragon with 10, 15, 20 or whatever amount of people that I or the leaders of the group chose to instead of random people tossed in like the claw of jormag & Teq fights are.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Personal Story already ends in a group content dungeon. I don’t see an issue with making group content scattered throughout future content, personally. I’d imagine Season 2 will end that way, and I think it’d be weird to see Season 1 implemented without Twisted Marionette/Prime Hologram being group content too.

Though if they bring back the Twisted Marionette, I really hope that it comes back as a Guild Boss battle (as well) – no placement on the timer, just can only spawn as guild boss battle. I’d love the same for Prime Holo, but I find that hard to impossible to implement.

I do have an idea for you and anet :
Step 1 : introduce us in advance with a pact npc from the priory (eg. Vlonkx). His goal : create a training facility for the pact with technology obtained from Motto. Let him stay around for a month or two.

Step 2 : place an object that looks like the super adventure box entrance around the marionette. Have Vlonkx work on it. At some point he should declare that his facility is complete.

Step 3 : At a given time during the day (inside the megaboss rotation schedule) have the npc say that the training facility is opened. Players can enter the the box and will be teleported to a small version of Lornar’s pass that looks like the original landing site. Make sure only level 80 people can enter the instance. Scale the mobs to be level 80.

Step 4 : give players 10 minutes to prepare for the fight, then proceed as the original encounter.

Advantage : we have the marionette back. It is now end game content for level 80 players.

Flaws : instanced content. Requires a commander to be joined to ensure that you end up in the same overflow shard as the rest of your group. Also, stresses the servers a lot.

Lore police (i.e why is doing this consistent with established lore) : The pact is busy fighting and studying dragons and their minions. Since the pact has acknowledged the connection between Scarlet and Modry, she is a valid person to study. Besides, the pact troops could use some intensive training before being sent in the meat grinder of orr.

Same trick for the prime hologram. Though I don’t know if the assault knight are necessary to implement again since they were quite un-interesting. A quick tutorial (get the right affinity to damage the right hologram) should do the trick.