Guild Wars 2

The Silverwastes is one of the worst designed areas in the game.

The dynamic events have been copy pasted so we have the same thing four times. The “free X from the Mordrem”, “keep the Mordrem from taking X”, “collect rubble to rebuild a wall” and “escort a Dolyak to X” events are the same for all the fortresses. Worse, once a fortress has been taken, two events will repeat over and over in a very small time frame until either the Breach happens or the fortress is lost.

That is simply lazy. ArenaNet could have made different kinds of events in each fortress. They could have given each fortress different structures, so they would behave differently. Many of the best event chains in the original release of GW2 actually tell a story, showing what happens with individuals through a short arc. The fortress events in the Silverwastes are just a loop, with players pretending they are hamsters spinning in their little wheels.

To make things worse, the entire map is basically filled with the same enemies everywhere. With a few exceptions, we are just fighting the Mordrem over and over. This is very similar to Orr, in which we basically spend our entire time fighting the Risen, and it would have been expected that ArenaNet would have learned their lesson by now.

Even the little things lack polish. We got a new currency taking inventory space… But wasn’t the entire wallet system designed to avoid having currencies taking inventory space? Why haven’t the Bandit Crests been implemented in the wallet? Also, how could ArenaNet not see that all those big yellow announcements in the middle of the screen are both intrusive and immersion breaking? Why does the poison field after the Breach fill the passage between one of the very few waypoints in the map and everything in the west half of the Silverwastes?

“But Test”, someone could reply, “A lot of people play in the Silverwastes!”

No. A lot of people farm on the Silverwastes. Grinders will farm wherever is most profitable for them, regardless of how well designed the gameplay there is (or isn’t). This is the same reason why Orr, which shares many of the Silverwastes’ flaws, used to be filled with people, until ArenaNet nerfed Plinx farming.

ArenaNet built an entire map exclusively for grinders and farmers. It’s possible that no one else is left playing the game and ArenaNet is just cattering to their current playerbase. Or maybe ArenaNet knew that making high quality content would be too resource-consuming, so it would be easier to make a farming map, knowing that the grinders would go there even if the content were poorly done.

HoT will probably follow a similar path. I expect the same kind of repetitive and shallow content, made to appease grinders and no one else. If those are enough to make the expansion sell, well, that’s what remains to be seen.

Is there a question in here?

You may not like it, but there are plenty of people who do. You also said that it is a grinding and farming map, and the only ones who are there are farmers and grinders. If that’s the case, then the map serves its purpose rather well.

If you don’t like it, you are not compelled to go there. Its pretty simple really.

Plus if Anet actively discourages farming then why make a map specifically for that?

I get your rant, but at the same time I find it unfounded and extremely subjective.

For me, you lost credibility as soon as you brought in the word lazy. There’s a ton of stuff there, including 4 underground bosses, the maze and the new zone event. There’s the jumping puzzle too, which is amazing.

Anyone who looks at that zone and doesn’t think a ton of work went into it is not paying attention.

shrugs Honestly I think it’s the best map they ever made.

Requires cooperation all the way through, does a good job of managing mob mentality while still providing some challenge and yet remaining relatively un frustrating, great loot.

And dunno, it’s an MMO. You fight things, do events, get loot, rinse and repeat. Part of the experience really, even in the least grindy MMOs.

yanipheonu.5798:

And dunno, it’s an MMO. You fight things, do events, get loot, rinse and repeat. Part of the experience really, even in the least grindy MMOs.

This right here. I’ve been thinking about all this “Boss Gimmick/Boring” and other threads judging content, and really it always comes down to how much the player enjoys the activity in question.

I spend hours in Silverwastes, like, four to six hours a day. I need a break sometimes, but I genuinely enjoy the pacing, and the time invested to reward ratio. To me, it’s fun.
Other people find doing the same events boring and repetitive because they don’t like meso they go grind fractals from level 1-50. But it’s not a grind to them because they like it.

I’ve said it somewhere else and I’ll say it again an MMO is designed for a massive and diverse audience. Not every piece of content is for every player. Find what you like and do that. Anything else is pointless.

pdavis.8031:

You also said that it is a grinding and farming map, and the only ones who are there are farmers and grinders. If that’s the case, then the map serves its purpose rather well.

yanipheonu.5798:

And dunno, it’s an MMO. You fight things, do events, get loot, rinse and repeat. Part of the experience really, even in the least grindy MMOs.

GW2 Manifesto, all those years ago: “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.”

A pity to see how ArenaNet has taken a 180 degrees turn on that, and decided to make GW2 basically like a giant grinding ground just like any other MMORPG.

Krestfallen.8025:

I’ve said it somewhere else and I’ll say it again an MMO is designed for a massive and diverse audience. Not every piece of content is for every player. Find what you like and do that. Anything else is pointless.

Not really. A MMORPG is designed for a very niche audience – grinders and farmers and alikes. GW2 claimed originally it was going to be different, but it appears they have changed their minds.

Test: IIRC the was a recent discussion where this was clarified. There is no need to grind for anything in game. Exotics are easy to come by just by playing the game. Ascended isnt needed except for fractals. (Not getting into the stat increase, because it’s not relevant.) In other mmos grinding is required in order to do anything in the game at all. This game no so much. In the manifesto this is what they were referring to. Its not required. Period.

pdavis.8031:

In the manifesto this is what they were referring to. Its not required. Period.

You mean the "No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun” part of that comment didn’t exist?

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

You also said that it is a grinding and farming map, and the only ones who are there are farmers and grinders. If that’s the case, then the map serves its purpose rather well.

yanipheonu.5798:

And dunno, it’s an MMO. You fight things, do events, get loot, rinse and repeat. Part of the experience really, even in the least grindy MMOs.

GW2 Manifesto, all those years ago: “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.”

A pity to see how ArenaNet has taken a 180 degrees turn on that, and decided to make GW2 basically like a giant grinding ground just like any other MMORPG.

Krestfallen.8025:

I’ve said it somewhere else and I’ll say it again an MMO is designed for a massive and diverse audience. Not every piece of content is for every player. Find what you like and do that. Anything else is pointless.

Not really. A MMORPG is designed for a very niche audience – grinders and farmers and alikes. GW2 claimed originally it was going to be different, but it appears they have changed their minds.

Perhaps you should look further into what they meant by grind.

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

In the manifesto this is what they were referring to. Its not required. Period.

You mean the "No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun” part of that comment didn’t exist?

It does. Certainly. But the context was grinding for gear in order to play parts of the game. There are people who do enjoy that and more power to them. No one (subjectively) likes to spend hours and hours grinding in order to get certain gear or they are locked out of a particular area of them game.

My argument is admittedly subjective, but I stand by it: a grind is a grind only if the player finds the required activity tedious and/or unfulfilling.

In the history of all MMOs, and basically every RPG as well, there has been no game that did not rely on grinding. It basically defines the genre.

Now we could sit here and squabble all day about the finer details of an document/video/interview that was released almost three years ago at this point, or we could deal with what’s in front of us.

Not all content is going to appeal to every player. And I get it: sometimes items you really, really want are gated behind content you don’t like, the game is now two+ years old with relatively little content added (I know that’s another point we could debate all day, but since a significant amount of content generated was subsequently ripped out of the game [LS Season 1] I’m just gunna go ahead and give this one to those who are disatisfied) and we’re all bored. Bored and just a little impatient for something new.

But there is no amount of complaing, suggestions, constructive criticism, or forum stalking any of us can engage in to change the reality of what’s in front of us. And that reality is you get to choose what content you particpate in. Don’t like Silverwastes? Don’t go there! Don’t like fractals? Don’t run them! Don’t like dungeons, meta bosses, etc.. etc… etc…

As consumers that’s really the only venue that’s open to us. Find the content we like and play that. And you know what, Anet may not have delivered the “grind free utopia” a lot of people were hoping for, but they were good about creating a game where most forms of content produce relatively equal rewards based on time invested.

So play what you enjoy and avoid what you want. It’s your free time. Don’t use it to make yourself suffer!

Ayrilana.1396:

Perhaps you should look further into what they meant by grind.

Yeah, it’s in my signature. Taken from a topic I made about grind. Incidentally, it’s nice that you mentioned it, because…

pdavis.8031:

Test: IIRC the was a recent discussion where this was clarified. There is no need to grind for anything in game. Exotics are easy to come by just by playing the game. Ascended isnt needed except for fractals. (Not getting into the stat increase, because it’s not relevant.)

Nope. You can see at my signature, or you can read that topic again for the details, but what you have described isn’t what ArenaNet calls grind.

It’s funny how often people try to defend the grind in this game. I have many times seen the argument “No, when ArenaNet said ‘we don’t want players to grind’, they didn’t mean that they don’t want players to grind! They meant [insert random meaning here that wasn’t even hinted by ArenaNet]!”. That doesn’t really work. ArenaNet has many times clarified what they meant, and the conclusion taken from their own clarifications is that the game has more grind than they claimed it would have. That, based from things all the way from the Manifesto to Colin’s recent forum posts.

Krestfallen.8025:

In the history of all MMOs, and basically every RPG as well, there has been no game that did not rely on grinding. It basically defines the genre.

…Uh, no. The focus on grind is something recent, dominating western games basically after WoW proved that players are willing to go through content they don’t enjoy as long as they got a reward for it.

Take a look at classic RPGs, such as Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, Phantasy Star IV, Lunar 2: Eternal Blue. Did those rely on grind? Grinding was actually a way to make the game worse, by making those games easier than they were meant to be. In a few games, you were actually punished for grinding too much (in PSIV, for example, you begin to permanently lose abilities if your level is too high).

Krestfallen.8025:

As consumers that’s really the only venue that’s open to us. Find the content we like and play that. And you know what, Anet may not have delivered the “grind free utopia” a lot of people were hoping for, but they were good about creating a game where most forms of content produce relatively equal rewards based on time invested.

The thing is, ArenaNet releases a lot of content that is just a massive grind. And the more resources they use to make grind, the less resources they have available to do anything else. Often, it looks like less that they are making a game to a diverse audience with different tastes, and more like they are making a game for grinders, and no one else.

Which is what the great majority of other MMORPGs has done. Incidentally, the great majority of MMORPGs has failed – how many successes have we had in the recent years? The rebooted Final Fantasy XIV, Rift years ago, and that’s pretty much it.

Test. So what do you consider grind? What do you determine the purpose of grind? And does gw2 meet those standards?

You claim this is a grindy game yet confirm that you dont need to to grind as quoted in your signature.

pdavis.8031:

You claim this is a grindy game yet confirm that you dont need to to grind as quoted in your signature.

As seen in my signature, ArenaNet thinks we shouldn’t have to grind in order to get the best gear in the game.

Yet, Ascended gear, which is the best gear in the game, is incredibly grindy.

Ergo, by ArenaNet’s own definition, GW2 has more grind than they think the game should have. Thus, it’s a grindy game.

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Perhaps you should look further into what they meant by grind.

Yeah, it’s in my signature. Taken from a topic I made about grind. Incidentally, it’s nice that you mentioned it, because…

I had to go back 13 pages but I found a post from Anet that clarified what they meant. What surprised me though is that it was posted in a thread started by you.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

You claim this is a grindy game yet confirm that you dont need to to grind as quoted in your signature.

As seen in my signature, ArenaNet thinks we shouldn’t have to grind in order to get the best gear in the game.

Yet, Ascended gear, which is the best gear in the game, is incredibly grindy.

Ergo, by ArenaNet’s own definition, GW2 has more grind than they think the game should have. Thus, it’s a grindy game.

Do you NEED to grind to get ascended? Is ascended required to do anything in the game aside from high level fractals?

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

You claim this is a grindy game yet confirm that you dont need to to grind as quoted in your signature.

As seen in my signature, ArenaNet thinks we shouldn’t have to grind in order to get the best gear in the game.

Yet, Ascended gear, which is the best gear in the game, is incredibly grindy.

Ergo, by ArenaNet’s own definition, GW2 has more grind than they think the game should have. Thus, it’s a grindy game.

Which has zero to do with the Silverwastes. Thanks for playing.

Test.8734:

Krestfallen.8025:

In the history of all MMOs, and basically every RPG as well, there has been no game that did not rely on grinding. It basically defines the genre.

…Uh, no. The focus on grind is something recent, dominating western games basically after WoW proved that players are willing to go through content they don’t enjoy as long as they got a reward for it.

Take a look at classic RPGs, such as Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, Phantasy Star IV, Lunar 2: Eternal Blue. Did those rely on grind? Grinding was actually a way to make the game worse, by making those games easier than they were meant to be. In a few games, you were actually punished for grinding too much (in PSIV, for example, you begin to permanently lose abilities if your level is too high).

Oh. I didn’t see the rest of your post addressed to that player until now. You do realize that those games are single player games, right?

pdavis.8031:

Is ascended required to do anything in the game aside from high level fractals?

Irrelevant. Again, as seen in my signature, ArenaNet thinks we shouldn’t have to grind in order to get the best gear in the game. Notice that they didn’t say we shoudn’t have to grind in order to get exotic gear – they have claimed they think we shouldn’t have to grind in order to get the best gear in the game.

Saying that it’s not grind because ascended is not required to do everything in the game is going against ArenaNet’s own definition of grind.

Ayrilana.1396:

I had to go back 13 pages but I found a post from Anet that clarified what they meant. What surprised me though is that it was posted in a thread started by you.

Which is pretty much I have said, right here:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Perhaps you should look further into what they meant by grind.

Yeah, it’s in my signature. Taken from a topic I made about grind. Incidentally, it’s nice that you mentioned it, because…

Why were you surprised?

Vayne.8563:

Which has zero to do with the Silverwastes. Thanks for playing.

It has everything to do with the Silverwastes. Ascended gear = requires grind = Silverwastes is basically a giant grind. Match, point, your loss.

Ayrilana.1396:

Oh. I didn’t see the rest of your post addressed to that player until now. You do realize that those games are single player games, right?

…Uh, did you read what I was answering to? Specifically the part that said…

Krestfallen.8025:

In the history of all MMOs, and basically every RPG as well, there has been no game that did not rely on grinding. It basically defines the genre.

Bolding by me. Unless you think “every RPG” has been a multiplayer game, my answer was addressing the topic at hand. How could you have missed that?

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

Is ascended required to do anything in the game aside from high level fractals?

Irrelevant. Again, as seen in my signature, ArenaNet thinks we shouldn’t have to grind in order to get the best gear in the game. Notice that they didn’t say we shoudn’t have to grind in order to get exotic gear – they have claimed they think we shouldn’t have to grind in order to get the best gear in the game.

Saying that it’s not grind because ascended is not required to do everything in the game is going against ArenaNet’s own definition of grind.

Ayrilana.1396:

I had to go back 13 pages but I found a post from Anet that clarified what they meant. What surprised me though is that it was posted in a thread started by you.

Which is pretty much I have said, right here:

Test.8734:

Ayrilana.1396:

Perhaps you should look further into what they meant by grind.

Yeah, it’s in my signature. Taken from a topic I made about grind. Incidentally, it’s nice that you mentioned it, because…

Why were you surprised?

Vayne.8563:

Which has zero to do with the Silverwastes. Thanks for playing.

It has everything to do with the Silverwastes. Ascended gear = requires grind = Silverwastes is basically a giant grind. Match, point, your loss.

Ayrilana.1396:

Oh. I didn’t see the rest of your post addressed to that player until now. You do realize that those games are single player games, right?

…Uh, did you read what I was answering to? Specifically the part that said…

Krestfallen.8025:

In the history of all MMOs, and basically every RPG as well, there has been no game that did not rely on grinding. It basically defines the genre.

Bolding by me. Unless you think “every RPG” has been a multiplayer game, my answer was addressing the topic at hand. How could you have missed that?

You’re postulating the Silverwastes is bad because it’s grindy.

Using the Anet definition of grind, which has to do with ascended gear, it doesn’t fit. You don’t have to play the Silverwastes to get ascended gear. It has nothing to do with ascended gear.

You’re adding 2 and 2 together and getting 85. It doesn’t work.

Test: As stated by colin johnson above:Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

He goes on to say: There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.
So silverwastes doesnt fall into anets definition of grind. Neither did ascended nor legendary weapons. The key word in all of that is REQUIRED. You are not required to spend anytime at all in silverwastes aside from the story.

Vayne.8563:

Using the Anet definition of grind, which has to do with ascended gear, it doesn’t fit. You don’t have to play the Silverwastes to get ascended gear. It has nothing to do with ascended gear.

Didn’t we already document that your interpretation of ArenaNet’s definition of grind is flawed? It’s in my signature, if you would like a reminder.

The Silverwastes, as far as PvE goes, is the best place to get ascended gear. Incidentally, that’s because you need to grind to get ascended, and the Silverwastes is the grindiest place in the game. It’s very little more than a grind box, in fact.

So, grind. What is the definition of it? I googled mmorpg definition of grind and picked the top 3 I found. Each definition said that grind was repeatedly killing the same mobs over and over, either in order to level or to unlock content. This agrees with ANet’s use of the word grind and does not agree with the way OP and others are defining grind. If ANet is using the commonly accepted definition of the word grind, then their use is the correct one. You do not need to grind (repeatedly kill the same mobs) to level or to unlock content.

http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27527/grinding
“Grinding refers to the playing time spent doing repetitive tasks within a game to unlock a particular game item or to build the experience needed to progress smoothly through the game. Grinding most commonly involves killing the same set of opponents over and over in order to gain experience points or gold. Although other game genres require some grinding, role-playing games (RPG) – specifically massively multiplayer online role-playing games – are the most notorious for requiring this type of time investment from players.”

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-is-grinding-grinding-video-games
“Grinding is a term from the video game industry which is used to describe the action of repeatedly killing mobs inside of a video game in order to mass gain experience or currency: most of the time the term gets used in relation to grinding for experience.”

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_
“Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, often feature grinding as well. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”

People who are using the word grind like the OP is, are not using the accepted meaning and not using the meaning that ANet is using.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Using the Anet definition of grind, which has to do with ascended gear, it doesn’t fit. You don’t have to play the Silverwastes to get ascended gear. It has nothing to do with ascended gear.

Didn’t we already document that your interpretation of ArenaNet’s definition of grind is flawed? It’s in my signature, if you would like a reminder.

The Silverwastes, as far as PvE goes, is the best place to get ascended gear. Incidentally, that’s because you need to grind to get ascended, and the Silverwastes is the grindiest place in the game. It’s very little more than a grind box, in fact.

You should get out more, instead of trying to prove me wrong.

I’m using Colin’s definition which you also quoted in your signature.

This is the actual TLDR; from your OP.

I personally don’t like the Silverwastes so it’s bad and the devs are lazy.

Well, the Silverwastes are popular, people like them, even people who don’t grind them. That’s really the end of the conversation.

TL;DR: Silverwastes = shallow, missed opportunities
Disclaimer: standard personal opinion.

I agree about the sameness and repetitiveness of the Silverwastes. Each fort could have been significantly different from the others, in terms of game play and story, but they aren’t. Same with the Breach bosses.

That labyrinth thing? One of the most unfun things ever, especially when our characters can succeed in reaching that place with the chest only to have the dog things rush in and kill them right there. That’s just trolling on anet’s part. Big ha ha.

The underground jumping puzzle? Yeah, it was cool. First time through. After that, though, bleh. Why not put more things to do down there than jump around like Super Mario? Side missions, quests, something with some semblance of story to it. How about a lost colony of ancient Krytans, with dredge servants, a la ‘The Mole People’.

I wouldn’t necessarily call the design of this zone lazy. I would, however call it shallow. Nobody misses more opportunities than anet.

See also: Dry Top

Astral Projections.7320:

Each definition said that grind was repeatedly killing the same mobs over and over, either in order to level or to unlock content.

Yeah… You didn’t read the text you have quoted, did you?

“Level or unlock content”?

Astral Projections.7320:

http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27527/grinding
Grinding most commonly involves killing the same set of opponents over and over in order to gain experience points or gold.

Gain gold is not “level or unlock content”. Your own definition is thus proven wrong.

Astral Projections.7320:

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-is-grinding-grinding-video-games
“*Grinding is a term from the video game industry which is used to describe the action of repeatedly killing mobs inside of a video game in order to mass gain experience or currency*

Mass gain currency is not “level or unlock content”. Thus, again, your own definition is proven wrong.

Vayne.8563:

This is the actual TLDR; from your OP.

I personally don’t like the Silverwastes so it’s bad and the devs are lazy.

Yeah, you would probably make a decent counter-argument if you didn’t TLDR and had actually read it. But then again, if you could give a proper counter argument about the points I have mentioned, you would probably have done so by now.

Test.8734:

Astral Projections.7320:

Each definition said that grind was repeatedly killing the same mobs over and over, either in order to level or to unlock content.

Yeah… You didn’t read the text you have quoted, did you?

“Level or unlock content”?

Astral Projections.7320:

http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27527/grinding
Grinding most commonly involves killing the same set of opponents over and over in order to gain experience points or gold.

Gain gold is not “level or unlock content”. Your own definition is thus proven wrong.

Astral Projections.7320:

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-is-grinding-grinding-video-games
“*Grinding is a term from the video game industry which is used to describe the action of repeatedly killing mobs inside of a video game in order to mass gain experience or currency*

Mass gain currency is not “level or unlock content”. Thus, again, your own definition is proven wrong.

You know, in many many RPG games, gaining experience tends to reward you with levels. You may also look at the word “or” in those definitions. Either you’re not understanding it’s meaning or you’re just cherry picking pieces that allow you to argue against.

Ayrilana.1396:

Either you’re not understanding it’s meaning or you’re just cherry picking pieces that allow you to argue against.

Nope, I’m rather sure that’s what you are doing. Using a definition of grind restricted as something done “in order to level or to unlock content”, while the examples you have presented yourself (not to mention ArenaNet’s own definition) describe grind as more than that (gear, gold, currency).

Based on this and other threads that have been referenced in here, Test is clearly dead set on proving that there are elements of GW2 that could be considered “grindy”. After reading through some of this thread, I just want to know, what exactly is your endgame? You have invested a lot of time and energy into debating the existence and definition of “grind”. If everyone in this thread were to say “Oh man, you’re right, the repetitive activities in the Silverwaste could be described as ’grindy!”, what would the next step be?

CreamSoda.6839:

If everyone in this thread were to say “Oh man, you’re right, the repetitive activities in the Silverwaste could be described as ’grindy!”, what would the next step be?

Then my life’s work would be complete, and I would be able to free myself from the GW2 chains in my soul.

This isn’t the first time ArenaNet has done this. Between the Crown Pavillion, the Scarlet invasions, Dry Top and Silverwastes, they have clearly been making a lot of stuff that is just a grind box disguised as content.

People can either accept it, or speak against it. I’m speaking against it. I doubt it will change much, or that it will prevent HoT from being basically a giant grind box, but it’s what I can do.

Test.8734:

Astral Projections.7320:

Each definition said that grind was repeatedly killing the same mobs over and over, either in order to level or to unlock content.

Yeah… You didn’t read the text you have quoted, did you?

“Level or unlock content”?

Astral Projections.7320:

http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27527/grinding
Grinding most commonly involves killing the same set of opponents over and over in order to gain experience points or gold.

Gain gold is not “level or unlock content”. Your own definition is thus proven wrong.

Astral Projections.7320:

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-is-grinding-grinding-video-games
“*Grinding is a term from the video game industry which is used to describe the action of repeatedly killing mobs inside of a video game in order to mass gain experience or currency*

Mass gain currency is not “level or unlock content”. Thus, again, your own definition is proven wrong.

Vayne.8563:

This is the actual TLDR; from your OP.

I personally don’t like the Silverwastes so it’s bad and the devs are lazy.

Yeah, you would probably make a decent counter-argument if you didn’t TLDR and had actually read it. But then again, if you could give a proper counter argument about the points I have mentioned, you would probably have done so by now.

A proper counter argument has been given by a whole lot of people. People like and it are having fun. That means that saying it’s only for farmers (because I don’t farm and I like it) is simply your opinion.

I don’t have to give evidence to support an opinion that I and other people are having fun. You, however, would have to give evidence in your claims that it was lazy.

That’s how it works. You made the first statement and don’t really back it up at all. Why do I even need a counter argument?

Why can’t people express opinions without being antagonistic?

Vayne.8563:

That means that saying it’s only for farmers (because I don’t farm and I like it) is simply your opinion.

Vayne, sorry to burst your bubble, but saying “it’s your opinion!” doesn’t invalidate an argument. And ironically, trying to refute my argument by claiming you like the map is incredibly weak, since that’s – guess what – just your opinion.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t have to give evidence to support an opinion that I and other people are having fun.

Because you can’t.

Vayne.8563:

You, however, would have to give evidence in your claims that it was lazy.

Already done. You simply ignored it (or didn’t understand it).

Vayne.8563:

That’s how it works. You made the first statement and don’t really back it up at all. Why do I even need a counter argument?

Because that’s how this little thing called “having a discussion” works. I give one opinion based on arguments, someone replies with a different opinion providing counter arguments, and so on. And once in a while, someone who doesn’t understand what a discussion is pops in trying to mindlessly white knight, only to be proved wrong over and over.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

That means that saying it’s only for farmers (because I don’t farm and I like it) is simply your opinion.

Vayne, sorry to burst your bubble, but saying “it’s your opinion!” doesn’t invalidate an argument. And ironically, trying to refute my argument by claiming you like the map is incredibly weak, since that’s – guess what – just your opinion.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t have to give evidence to support an opinion that I and other people are having fun.

Because you can’t.

Vayne.8563:

You, however, would have to give evidence in your claims that it was lazy.

Already done. You simply ignored it (or didn’t understand it).

Vayne.8563:

That’s how it works. You made the first statement and don’t really back it up at all. Why do I even need a counter argument?

Because that’s how this little thing called “having a discussion” works. I give one opinion based on arguments, someone replies with a different opinion providing counter arguments, and so on. And once in a while, someone who doesn’t understand what a discussion is pops in trying to mindlessly white knight, only to be proved wrong over and over.

The way I see it, vayne (your white knight), hasnt been proven wrong. By anets definition, silverwastes may be grindy, but is in no way required. You feel that it is a grind, and that certainly can appear that way, but isnt required to level or obtain high tier gear (anet said ascended doesnt count as its optional).

Thus as silverwastes isn’t required, its acceptable grind by anets standards. And thus in keeping with the manifesto.

In the end if you dont like it dont play it. Trying to call out anet for a single map you dont like is very disrespectful and straight up rude. There are lots of people who do like it and play it regularly.

Bad design or not, it is very hard to argue with 1 of the most profitable G/h farming locations, if not the most.

pdavis.8031:

In the end if you dont like it dont play it. Trying to call out anet for a single map you dont like is very disrespectful and straight up rude. There are lots of people who do like it and play it regularly.

I wonder when did it become “disrespectful” for one player to claim he doesn’t like something in the game. I guess some people wished this forum were nothing more than a rose-colored look at the game.

Do people like it? So try to imagine something: what if it had zero rewards? Would people “play it regularly” then? Do players like the map itself, or do they like the rewards they get there, with playing in the map being just an acceptable sacrifice in order to get those rewards?

Ah, and for the records…

pdavis.8031:

(anet said ascended doesnt count as its optional).

ArenaNet has never said that. Funny that you quoted almost all of Colin’s post, and still got it wrong.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Bad design or not, it is very hard to argue with 1 of the most profitable G/h farming locations, if not the most.

Indeed.

While I agree with your individual points in regards to ways the Silverwastes could have been better done, it’s far from a poorly made zone, and in many ways is one of the best done zones in the game.

The Silverwastes are a zone made for grinders. This is absolutely true – and this is the reason you don’t like the zone (as made evident by this being the focus of all of your follow-up responses). You simply are not the target audience for the zone – and that’s fine. There is a wealth of content throughout the rest of the game for you to enjoy.

But for people who like to grind? The Silverwastes is awesome, and very, very well put together for filling that niche. It’s fun, it’s effective, and it does a great job of getting players working towards the same goal without blowing up their computers/compromising content difficulty by not only not forcing them all together into one small spot, but by making it both ineffectual in the early phases, and impossible in the final ones. The bosses are some of the best in the game (granted, this isn’t the highest bar to reach, but they seem to be improving), and the way the events build on each other are intense and fun.

You don’t like grinding. This, at its core, is the reason you don’t like the Silverwastes, and that doesn’t make it objectively a bad zone. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely – but what we have is still pretty good. Hopefully the next zone will fill your niche better.

Test.8734:

The Silverwastes is one of the worst designed areas in the game.

That is simply lazy.

To make things worse, the entire map is basically filled with the same enemies everywhere. With a few exceptions, we are just fighting the Mordrem over and over. This is very similar to Orr, in which we basically spend our entire time fighting the Risen, and it would have been expected that ArenaNet would have learned their lesson by now.

Even the little things lack polish.

ArenaNet built an entire map exclusively for grinders and farmers. It’s possible that no one else is left playing the game and ArenaNet is just cattering to their current playerbase. Or maybe ArenaNet knew that making high quality content would be too resource-consuming, so it would be easier to make a farming map, knowing that the grinders would go there even if the content were poorly done.

Its one thing to not be happy with certain things, its another to be overly critical and using language that implies that little to no effort was put into creating it.

Look at it this way. If you spent a long time working on a project. Then went to reveal it. But then some people came up to you and said that it was the worst thing they’ve ever seen. That you obviously put no effort into it, that it showed that you were lazy, unimaginative, and careless. Also that no one cares to even use it because it so god awful, and you might as well give up. Would that inspire you or anyone else to continue to create?

I get you don’t like it. But unless you want to be taken with any sort of credibility, the language you use matters very much in what you want to get across.

Also colin said there are multiple way to get ascended materials so having to do the same thing over and over doesn’t need to happen, and it implies that legendary and ascended gear falls into that optional grind.

I agree, they’re pretty bad.

But mostly because I can’t choose a district/instance and can get shunted repeatedly into a dead instance where nothing is happening. And if that’s the case, I can’t do many events defending the forts because they’re not balanced for a single player to hold things off very well.

Other than that, I really kind of enjoy the map. In small doses. Which is just about how I enjoy the rest of the game – in small bursts of activity, then take a break until the next day.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I agree, they’re pretty bad.

But mostly because I can’t choose a district/instance and can get shunted repeatedly into a dead instance where nothing is happening. And if that’s the case, I can’t do many events defending the forts because they’re not balanced for a single player to hold things off very well.

Other than that, I really kind of enjoy the map. In small doses. Which is just about how I enjoy the rest of the game – in small bursts of activity, then take a break until the next day.

Just use the LFG to find a taxi to a full instance.

Isarii.2804:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I agree, they’re pretty bad.

But mostly because I can’t choose a district/instance and can get shunted repeatedly into a dead instance where nothing is happening. And if that’s the case, I can’t do many events defending the forts because they’re not balanced for a single player to hold things off very well.

Other than that, I really kind of enjoy the map. In small doses. Which is just about how I enjoy the rest of the game – in small bursts of activity, then take a break until the next day.

Just use the LFG to find a taxi to a full instance.

Yes, that might work in theory if the last three taxis hadn’t been blatant lies about how full or how active the instance was

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Isarii.2804:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I agree, they’re pretty bad.

But mostly because I can’t choose a district/instance and can get shunted repeatedly into a dead instance where nothing is happening. And if that’s the case, I can’t do many events defending the forts because they’re not balanced for a single player to hold things off very well.

Other than that, I really kind of enjoy the map. In small doses. Which is just about how I enjoy the rest of the game – in small bursts of activity, then take a break until the next day.

Just use the LFG to find a taxi to a full instance.

Yes, that might work in theory if the last three taxis hadn’t been blatant lies about how full or how active the instance was

Maybe it’s me but I’ve never really had a problem with the events. Usually at first things are quite slow. But I can usually defend one fort 2, maybe 3 times solo. But eventually the map fills up and we get to the breach and Vine wrath. People generally want to do, but few people actually start it, and if they find an “empty” map tend to leave to get to it a bit quicker.

pdavis.8031:

Maybe it’s me but I’ve never really had a problem with the events. Usually at first things are quite slow. But I can usually defend one fort 2, maybe 3 times solo. But eventually the map fills up and we get to the breach and Vine wrath. People generally want to do, but few people actually start it, and if they find an “empty” map tend to leave to get to it a bit quicker.

See, that’s where it’s different – there are two mobs which cause me to wind up not being able to finish an event due to being overwhelmed – teragriffs and thrashers. Any of those being Veteran? I have to abandon the event, because I will not finish.

Silverwastes is pretty much all action all the time, a GW2 map compressed to half the size and twice the content. For its intended use, its one of the best maps in the game. Orr is now boring as hell in comparison, without any clear goal.

It seems to me that this design is the future of Guild Wars so you better deal with it, lol. HoT will probably be similar but on a much larger scale.

pdavis.8031:

Do you NEED to grind to get ascended?

In theory, no. In practice, yes, as other ways of obtaining it are not realistic.

pdavis.8031:

Is ascended required to do anything in the game aside from high level fractals?

Are they or not the best stat gear in the game (which, by anet, should not require grind to get)? That’s the only question that matters here. Whether that best statistical gear is required for anything is secondary at best (especially since the answer will depend on personal skills of the person being asked).

And going back to Silverwastes – i understand that there are people that like this kind of design, but i’d rather Anet avoided creating monofocused maps that completely revolve around a single gimmick. And i especially dislike the forced reset nature of Silverwastes (no matter how good you do, the end result is map reset and needing to do everything from the beginning). It turns the map from a living place into some sort of minigame.

I must be doing something wrong. Every time I port out to the SW, the place is dead. Wouldn’t mind seeing this train people talk about.

GW2 is a fun game, but yeah, there is definitely plenty of grind, as most gamers define it. A lot in the game is grind (people saying everything is optional notwithstanding) so it’s like every other MMO out there in that regard; it’s just that the grind looks a little different from the whole “run a raid x times for a set of gear and then do it again after the next expansion, etc.”

I love the fact that different maps have different mechanics and different play style.
if I want chaotic battles I go to a place with chaotic battles. if I want challenge after challenge, I go to challenge after challenge. if I want something quiet when I can stroll around and water the flowers that’s what I do.

Celtic Lady.3729:

I must be doing something wrong. Every time I port out to the SW, the place is dead.

That’s what happens when you combine breach hopping or chest farming with the megaserver.
Silverwastes maps that have advanced the meta event beyond ~50% will quickly get filled to capacity by people taxiing in to do the breach, hence the megaserver will not put you into one of those.
Organized chest farms are also highly sought after if all those LFG posts are any indication, so these maps also quickly fill up.
What’s left? Dead maps where one or two fortresses at best are precariously hanging on, trying to ever so slowly advance the meta event to the point where the breach hoppers come back in again.

This will not, can not, change until breach hopping becomes economically unattractive compared to staying in a map and advancing the meta event.

Gudy.3607:

Celtic Lady.3729:

I must be doing something wrong. Every time I port out to the SW, the place is dead.

That’s what happens when you combine breach hopping or chest farming with the megaserver.
Silverwastes maps that have advanced the meta event beyond ~50% will quickly get filled to capacity by people taxiing in to do the breach, hence the megaserver will not put you into one of those.
Organized chest farms are also highly sought after if all those LFG posts are any indication, so these maps also quickly fill up.
What’s left? Dead maps where one or two fortresses at best are precariously hanging on, trying to ever so slowly advance the meta event to the point where the breach hoppers come back in again.

This will not, can not, change until breach hopping becomes economically unattractive compared to staying in a map and advancing the meta event.

Actually, the main culprit is the metaevent itself – as long as at the end of metaevent is something people would want to reach, you will find players trying to shortcut the wait. And since there’s nothing to do in the map besides the meta…

The thing I like about SW is that there’s always something going on, I can turn up and just join in with something straight away. Or I can run past and go farming, if I prefer. But I like that there’s no hanging around waiting for something to happen.

It brings into sharp contrast the new daily of 4 events in a particular map – I never realised how few events there are on some maps, and how hard you have to look to find them. It only makes me like SW more really.

i agree. it’s always the boring same. no one plays it. its a small group if at all and then the rest gets taxied in.