Guild Wars 2

I’ve seen in-game speculation about how the Sylvari kinda came from nowhere and could have been intended as dragon minions, had they not found Ventari’s Tablet. Finding out today that Mordremoth is in Magus Falls, as well as the alternate Sylvari tree that spawned Malyk, and I’m wondering how many more Scarlets were going to be seeing soon.

There is no such in-game speculation (if it is, it’s very new and hard to see, and likely just a nod to the constant player speculation). It’s all player speculation who’s support has long since been debunked. The speculation itself hasn’t been, but it holds no water.

There is, however, reason to believe the Nightmare is tied to Mordrmeoth.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There is no such in-game speculation (if it is, it’s very new and hard to see, and likely just a nod to the constant player speculation). It’s all player speculation who’s support has long since been debunked. The speculation itself hasn’t been, but it holds no water.

There is, however, reason to believe the Nightmare is tied to Mordrmeoth.

Maybe he meant players speculating in-game.

Kerryee.4857:

I’ve seen in-game speculation about how the Sylvari kinda came from nowhere and could have been intended as dragon minions, had they not found Ventari’s Tablet. Finding out today that Mordremoth is in Magus Falls, as well as the alternate Sylvari tree that spawned Malyk, and I’m wondering how many more Scarlets were going to be seeing soon.

I guess you never played any story mode or even read anything about the Sylvari ?

They din’t come out of nowhere.
They sprout out of the Tree of Life also known as Pale Tree.
This Tree was raised by a Centaur named Ventari in Arbor Bay
The Tree and Ventari are already present in GW1.

Also connecting the Nightmare Court to Mordremord is ridiculous.
These guys are normal sylvari the only difference is that they reject Vantari’s tablet teachings and want to corrupt the Pale tree to get rid of them……

Dear lord i hope the LS2 is not made to match these in-game speculation people.
It will be something like a dragon awakes, creates random minions of creatures we never met and the Pact is destroying it…….
Perfect Fan Boy level

I reached the exact same speculation. The thing that pointed me to it was during the past LS where it mentioned the shadow and or corruption was already in scarlets mind and using the Asura’s machine unlocked it.

This lead me to believe that the Sylvari themselves are liberated dragon minions much like glint.

And that the pale tree has a block to keep Mordremeth’s influence out. I believe the Nightmare Court have this block removed and have given into Mord’s influence.

WereDragon.6083:

I reached the exact same speculation. The thing that pointed me to it was during the past LS where it mentioned the shadow and or corruption was already in scarlets mind and using the Asura’s machine unlocked it.

This lead me to believe that the Sylvari themselves are liberated dragon minions much like glint.

And that the pale tree has a block to keep Mordremeth’s influence out. I believe the Nightmare Court have this block removed and have given into Mord’s influence.

Except there are more sylvari that aren’t from the grove that aren’t evil. I really really hate the sylvari as minions theory, it just holds no water and I’m sick of it.

WereDragon.6083:

I reached the exact same speculation. The thing that pointed me to it was during the past LS where it mentioned the shadow and or corruption was already in scarlets mind and using the Asura’s machine unlocked it.

Omadd’s machine didn’t unlock it. It just broke barriers in Scarlet’s mind – barriers said by Vorpp to be in all of us (so asura and sylvari, if not all sentient beings) – which allowed the entity (which I should add has not yet been proven to be Mordremoth) to mess with her mind.

And it should be noted that just because Scarlet apparently brought it in doesn’t mean it was always with her.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

WereDragon.6083:

I reached the exact same speculation. The thing that pointed me to it was during the past LS where it mentioned the shadow and or corruption was already in scarlets mind and using the Asura’s machine unlocked it.

Omadd’s machine didn’t unlock it. It just broke barriers in Scarlet’s mind – barriers said by Vorpp to be in all of us (so asura and sylvari, if not all sentient beings) – which allowed the entity (which I should add has not yet been proven to be Mordremoth) to mess with her mind.

And it should be noted that just because Scarlet apparently brought it in doesn’t mean it was always with her.

I think this downplays somewhat the fact that this “entity” operates through nightmare. And Mordremoth is suspected by some to also operate through the nightmare, which if true would indicate that they may be one and the same. I think the best way to kitten this would be to sidestep the issue entirely and try to look in detail into the nature of the nightmare.

Kurrilino.2706:

Also connecting the Nightmare Court to Mordremord is ridiculous.
These guys are normal sylvari the only difference is that they reject Vantari’s tablet teachings and want to corrupt the Pale tree to get rid of them……

While the NC was originally founded by Cadeyrn to rebel against the Tablet and have the Sylvari make their own path, there are mentions of the Court straying from their original principles and becoming more about inflicting pain and causing chaos ever since Faolain came to power.

A Massive Headache.1879:

Except there are more sylvari that aren’t from the grove that aren’t evil. I really really hate the sylvari as minions theory, it just holds no water and I’m sick of it.

shrug
It may not be right, but it certainly holds water.

For instance what you’ve just said is easily countered by exploring “where is Mordremoth”. If he is imprisoned and his powers restrained, then all of the great trees that birth the Sylvari may be have their free will, not just the Pale Tree.
We don’t know that Ventari’s tablet is why the Pale tree isn’t evil, just that that’s where her teachings come from. She was free to to do as she pleased, she liked the teachings and so it’s why her Sylvari are so active in the world (act with wisdom, but act). Other trees made other choices. They may not even know for sure where they came from.
We know very little about how the high level dragon generals work. If they were planted/raised without their Elder Dragon’s influence they may have free will. It may be in shaping them as they grow that the elder dragons assert their control on their generals.

That all allows the Nightmare to be a part of the Sylvari that was locked away by their trees intentionally (because without their master around to back them up why would the other trees choose make waves and kitten people off in Mordremoth’s name, they’d be vulnerable and the major races would wipe them out). But there are also other possiblilities:
- The Nightmare is a deep part of the Sylvari the trees didn’t know about/didn’t have to actively affect, and after denying the dream the court eventually dug it up (either through soul searching, or dabbling in sadism which aligned with that deep agenda).
- The Nightmare is the influence of a dragon the Nightmare court has accessed, and while the Sylvari are dragon minions, they actually carried no “taint” of it, as their dragon is imprisoned/asleep. Heck there could be a dragon whose powers lie in nightmares and dreaming, and the Sylvari’s connection to their Dream just makes them more vulnerable to it’s power.

The theory in general allows for a lot of wiggle room on specifics kitten much is still unknown about the Elder Dragons and their limits/how they do things.

Their are other things that add some credence but don’t have much weight on their own (the way sylvari are bred), but the main piece of evidence and what I think is the key part of the theory is:
Why are their no dragon minion Sylvari? No corrupted, no undead, no branded. If we find another reason for that, or we find some of Primordus’s minions co-opted by another dragon (though a once off probably wouldn’t do, as with effort/luck Primordus ended up with a destroyer that could breed, doesn’t mean he can do it again easily) that is when the theory will no longer hold water.
Or, more likely at the moment, just finding out for sure one way or another in coming LS :P

Kerryee.4857:

I’ve seen in-game speculation about how the Sylvari kinda came from nowhere and could have been intended as dragon minions, had they not found Ventari’s Tablet. Finding out today that Mordremoth is in Magus Falls, as well as the alternate Sylvari tree that spawned Malyk, and I’m wondering how many more Scarlets were going to be seeing soon.

Königs nightmare yet back again. Just lean back and watch the discussion unfold for the fifth time. There are several threads in the Lore section that are almost identical.

Miroe.2054:

Königs nightmare yet back again. Just lean back and watch the discussion unfold for the fifth time. There are several threads in the Lore section that are almost identical.

Fifth time? Try something more like the fiftieth time. I’d surprised that Konig hasn’t written down the entire debunking info and saved it somewhere. That way, he can just copy/paste a reply and be done with the threads that crop up all together.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

A Massive Headache.1879:

Except there are more sylvari that aren’t from the grove that aren’t evil. I really really hate the sylvari as minions theory, it just holds no water and I’m sick of it.

shrug
It may not be right, but it certainly holds water.

For instance what you’ve just said is easily countered by exploring “where is Mordremoth”. If he is imprisoned and his powers restrained, then all of the great trees that birth the Sylvari may be have their free will, not just the Pale Tree.
We don’t know that Ventari’s tablet is why the Pale tree isn’t evil, just that that’s where her teachings come from. She was free to to do as she pleased, she liked the teachings and so it’s why her Sylvari are so active in the world (act with wisdom, but act). Other trees made other choices. They may not even know for sure where they came from.
We know very little about how the high level dragon generals work. If they were planted/raised without their Elder Dragon’s influence they may have free will. It may be in shaping them as they grow that the elder dragons assert their control on their generals.

That all allows the Nightmare to be a part of the Sylvari that was locked away by their trees intentionally (because without their master around to back them up why would the other trees choose make waves and kitten people off in Mordremoth’s name, they’d be vulnerable and the major races would wipe them out). But there are also other possiblilities:
- The Nightmare is a deep part of the Sylvari the trees didn’t know about/didn’t have to actively affect, and after denying the dream the court eventually dug it up (either through soul searching, or dabbling in sadism which aligned with that deep agenda).
- The Nightmare is the influence of a dragon the Nightmare court has accessed, and while the Sylvari are dragon minions, they actually carried no “taint” of it, as their dragon is imprisoned/asleep. Heck there could be a dragon whose powers lie in nightmares and dreaming, and the Sylvari’s connection to their Dream just makes them more vulnerable to it’s power.

The theory in general allows for a lot of wiggle room on specifics kitten much is still unknown about the Elder Dragons and their limits/how they do things.

Their are other things that add some credence but don’t have much weight on their own (the way sylvari are bred), but the main piece of evidence and what I think is the key part of the theory is:
Why are their no dragon minion Sylvari? No corrupted, no undead, no branded. If we find another reason for that, or we find some of Primordus’s minions co-opted by another dragon (though a once off probably wouldn’t do, as with effort/luck Primordus ended up with a destroyer that could breed, doesn’t mean he can do it again easily) that is when the theory will no longer hold water.
Or, more likely at the moment, just finding out for sure one way or another in coming LS :P

200. actually that number might be wrong, but gw eotn there was svannir, corrupted by jormag FAR before he woke up. And from what I can gather, sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, while the dragon minions are not immune to such effects. I don’t think breeding is an issue

Oh and also the sylvari don’t corrupt things, nor does the pale tree.

I wouldn’t call them minions, in my opinion they’re more like a side effect to the power of the many pale trees he created. Because we haven’t come across a truly “mordremoth following” “minion-like” sylvari. Malyck for instance wasn’t born of the pale tree and wasn’t evil, but that may have something to do with mordy being asleep. The nightmare court are just rebels of the pale tree and want answers about their origins in a violent manor. Pale tree sylvari will never fall into “corruption” unless they are separated from the dream like scarlet was. And then there’s the soundless; sylvari who aren’t against the pale tree, but not with it. Mysterious.

There’s still a lot of unanswered questions and gaps. But we can all assume that sylvari are in fact a product of Mordy’s power but not quite “minions”.

flipyap.5789:

I wouldn’t call them minions, in my opinion they’re more like a side effect to the power of the many pale trees he created. Because we haven’t come across a truly “mordremoth following” “minion-like” sylvari. Malyck for instance wasn’t born of the pale tree and wasn’t evil, but that may have something to do with mordy being asleep. The nightmare court are just rebels of the pale tree and want answers about their origins in a violent manor. Pale tree sylvari will never fall into “corruption” unless they are separated from the dream like scarlet was. And then there’s the soundless; sylvari who aren’t against the pale tree, but not with it. Mysterious.

There’s still a lot of unanswered questions and gaps. But we can all assume that sylvari are in fact a product of Mordy’s power but not quite “minions”.

The seeds to the pale tree were found in a cave, 250 years before mordremoth even awoke, who was also the last one to wake up. last that we know of at least. Mordremoth doesn’t have to have any connection to the sylvari.

Maybe the sylvari are related to the dragons, but in a different way.

I’ve seen it suggested that they respond to the upswell of magic by trees of life growing and putting out sylvari, and they may be a defensive force to fight the dragons. If so, how they evolved or who made them is a mystery. (Personally, I like the idea that someone made the tree of life seeds.)

It could also be that, if the dragons win, all that will be left is sylvari. When the dragons go back to sleep due to low magic, the sylvari cleanse Tyria (and we’ve already seen at least one sylvari with a drive to cleanse a land) before dying off, and the cycle begins again. The last time the dragons appeared, they were apparently defeated. Thus, we didn’t get the sylvari part of the natural cycle.

Except the sylvari don’t have any previous remnents, like even the dwarves knew nothing of them prior.

Nonetheless, the Nightmare Court uses a kind of magic to pervert sentient beings, such as fernhounds, spiders, and some treants, and even to break and bind sylvari minds in spite of their attachment to the Dream. Some of they may have tapped the Nightmare somehow, not knowing it was draconic magic.

Moreover, we have wurms and husks which are not the product of the Court, but which look the same as the Court’s servants. Perhaps another hint into what might be the next enemy.

A Massive Headache.1879:

Except the sylvari don’t have any previous remnents, like even the dwarves knew nothing of them prior.

Ohh, good point on the dwarves.

A Massive Headache.1879:

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

A Massive Headache.1879:

Except there are more sylvari that aren’t from the grove that aren’t evil. I really really hate the sylvari as minions theory, it just holds no water and I’m sick of it.

shrug
It may not be right, but it certainly holds water.

For instance what you’ve just said is easily countered by exploring “where is Mordremoth”. If he is imprisoned and his powers restrained, then all of the great trees that birth the Sylvari may be have their free will, not just the Pale Tree.
We don’t know that Ventari’s tablet is why the Pale tree isn’t evil, just that that’s where her teachings come from. She was free to to do as she pleased, she liked the teachings and so it’s why her Sylvari are so active in the world (act with wisdom, but act). Other trees made other choices. They may not even know for sure where they came from.
We know very little about how the high level dragon generals work. If they were planted/raised without their Elder Dragon’s influence they may have free will. It may be in shaping them as they grow that the elder dragons assert their control on their generals.

That all allows the Nightmare to be a part of the Sylvari that was locked away by their trees intentionally (because without their master around to back them up why would the other trees choose make waves and kitten people off in Mordremoth’s name, they’d be vulnerable and the major races would wipe them out). But there are also other possiblilities:
- The Nightmare is a deep part of the Sylvari the trees didn’t know about/didn’t have to actively affect, and after denying the dream the court eventually dug it up (either through soul searching, or dabbling in sadism which aligned with that deep agenda).
- The Nightmare is the influence of a dragon the Nightmare court has accessed, and while the Sylvari are dragon minions, they actually carried no “taint” of it, as their dragon is imprisoned/asleep. Heck there could be a dragon whose powers lie in nightmares and dreaming, and the Sylvari’s connection to their Dream just makes them more vulnerable to it’s power.

The theory in general allows for a lot of wiggle room on specifics kitten much is still unknown about the Elder Dragons and their limits/how they do things.

Their are other things that add some credence but don’t have much weight on their own (the way sylvari are bred), but the main piece of evidence and what I think is the key part of the theory is:
Why are their no dragon minion Sylvari? No corrupted, no undead, no branded. If we find another reason for that, or we find some of Primordus’s minions co-opted by another dragon (though a once off probably wouldn’t do, as with effort/luck Primordus ended up with a destroyer that could breed, doesn’t mean he can do it again easily) that is when the theory will no longer hold water.
Or, more likely at the moment, just finding out for sure one way or another in coming LS :P

200. actually that number might be wrong, but gw eotn there was svannir, corrupted by jormag FAR before he woke up. And from what I can gather, sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, while the dragon minions are not immune to such effects. I don’t think breeding is an issue

Oh and also the sylvari don’t corrupt things, nor does the pale tree.

Technically, Svannir was corrupted by Jormag’s champion, Drakkar. If the NC are followers of Mordy then it doesn’t make sense for a splinter group to join Scarlet unless the entity that was controlling her was some how related to Mordy. I can’t see a group of risen, deciding to follow an entity that wasn’t related to Zhaitan. Nor can I see the Sons of Svannir following someone not related to Jormag.

My position of the nightmare court is that the nightmare is just another side of the dream. It is the ying to the dream’s yang.

DarcShriek.5829:

My position of the nightmare court is that the nightmare is just another side of the dream. It is the ying to the dream’s yang.

When talking to people about it, my sylvari has been adding a third term to it. “Fantasy.”

The Pale Tree follows the Fantasy.
The Court follows the Nightmare.
Together they make the Dream.

He finds it rather worrisome that so many sylvari embrace just one part, and believe they’ve embraced the whole. To his way of thinking, most of the race is delusional and unbalanced.

That’s essentially the view of some of the more balanced members of the Nightmare Court – one of the NPCs in the White Stag personal story arc is a good example. The Nightmare Court seems to be essentially two groups – those that genuinely believe in the Court’s stated goals of bringing about a more balanced Dream that isn’t unduly influenced by the Table, and the greater majority that simply enjoy behaving in immoral ways.

Either the sylvari and the pale tree seeds are products of mordremoth, or “tyria is a living entity and the sylvari are its auto-immune system to the dragons” (which sounds like bullkitten)
Personally, i think story-wise, it is more interesting that the sylvari origin be attached to mordy. I just think them being a race that arose “just because” there are dragons and crap is just silly. An attachment to mordy would justify them being added to the game. otherwise it just seems like they were added because GW2 needed a naturey race to balance things, and the crap origin story of “tyria called upon us and we arose” crap is like shoehorned writing 101 bullkitten.

Also, why does no one realize that malycks first memory was waking up under a bridge? he wasn’t born from his tree the way our sylvari were born. I think he isn’t corrupted because of his concussion, he doesn’t remember a dream or anything, hes completely cut off from his tree, so how ever malyck acts, it doesn’t determine the attitude of his tree.
I think there is a 100% chance he will be in the living story season 2 because during the personal story missions with him, he says “we will meet again, valiant” about 459860723408957098 times (it got really frustrating). His current goal is to set out west, up river toward magus falls and find his tree, and oohh guess where we’re going in season 2…
That is if caithes secret isn’t that she killed malyck shortly after he left (that is if he already left in the cannon) so that the other tree doesn’t find us or whatever.
What the heck is caithes secret!! it bugs me!!

Zayd Akira.1942:

Either the sylvari and the pale tree seeds are products of mordremoth, or “tyria is a living entity and the sylvari are its auto-immune system to the dragons” (which sounds like bullkitten)
Personally, i think story-wise, it is more interesting that the sylvari origin be attached to mordy. I just think them being a race that arose “just because” there are dragons and crap is just silly. An attachment to mordy would justify them being added to the game. otherwise it just seems like they were added because GW2 needed a naturey race to balance things, and the crap origin story of “tyria called upon us and we arose” crap is like shoehorned writing 101 bullkitten.

Also, why does no one realize that malycks first memory was waking up under a bridge? he wasn’t born from his tree the way our sylvari were born. I think he isn’t corrupted because of his concussion, he doesn’t remember a dream or anything, hes completely cut off from his tree, so how ever malyck acts, it doesn’t determine the attitude of his tree.
I think there is a 100% chance he will be in the living story season 2 because during the personal story missions with him, he says “we will meet again, valiant” about 459860723408957098 times (it got really frustrating). His current goal is to set out west, up river toward magus falls and find his tree, and oohh guess where we’re going in season 2…
That is if caithes secret isn’t that she killed malyck shortly after he left (that is if he already left in the cannon) so that the other tree doesn’t find us or whatever.
What the heck is caithes secret!! it bugs me!!

2 things obviously wrong with your post. 1. Mordremoth is supposed to be an elder dragon, right? Then why are sylvari completely new to tyria, with no record at all of them ever existing before, if they were dragon minions. 2. Malyck actually is born like all the sylvari, his pod fell into a river flowed down to the bridge, hence why he’s following it back to get to his tree.

A Massive Headache.1879:

Zayd Akira.1942:

Either the sylvari and the pale tree seeds are products of mordremoth, or “tyria is a living entity and the sylvari are its auto-immune system to the dragons” (which sounds like bullkitten)
Personally, i think story-wise, it is more interesting that the sylvari origin be attached to mordy. I just think them being a race that arose “just because” there are dragons and crap is just silly. An attachment to mordy would justify them being added to the game. otherwise it just seems like they were added because GW2 needed a naturey race to balance things, and the crap origin story of “tyria called upon us and we arose” crap is like shoehorned writing 101 bullkitten.

Also, why does no one realize that malycks first memory was waking up under a bridge? he wasn’t born from his tree the way our sylvari were born. I think he isn’t corrupted because of his concussion, he doesn’t remember a dream or anything, hes completely cut off from his tree, so how ever malyck acts, it doesn’t determine the attitude of his tree.
I think there is a 100% chance he will be in the living story season 2 because during the personal story missions with him, he says “we will meet again, valiant” about 459860723408957098 times (it got really frustrating). His current goal is to set out west, up river toward magus falls and find his tree, and oohh guess where we’re going in season 2…
That is if caithes secret isn’t that she killed malyck shortly after he left (that is if he already left in the cannon) so that the other tree doesn’t find us or whatever.
What the heck is caithes secret!! it bugs me!!

2 things obviously wrong with your post. 1. Mordremoth is supposed to be an elder dragon, right? Then why are sylvari completely new to tyria, with no record at all of them. 2. Malyck actually is born like all the sylvari, his pod fell into a river flowed down to the bridge, hence why he’s following it back to get to his tree.

His pod fell into a river, it was detached from his tree, As far as we know with our sylvari, their pods are directly connected to the pale tree. His was disconnected, which i think lends to why he isn’t all evil and junk from mordy.
Also, as far as ive seen, the records from the dwarves barely mention any dragon minions besides the ones they dealt with the most, the destroyers and zhaitans undead.
No matter which way you peel the banana, it can always be written for the sylvari to end up being the minions, whether you like it or not. If that’s the direction the devs decide to go, we’ll see. But really, i’d like any kind of origin story that is better than the hippie kitten we have now.

Zayd Akira.1942:

A Massive Headache.1879:

Zayd Akira.1942:

Either the sylvari and the pale tree seeds are products of mordremoth, or “tyria is a living entity and the sylvari are its auto-immune system to the dragons” (which sounds like bullkitten)
Personally, i think story-wise, it is more interesting that the sylvari origin be attached to mordy. I just think them being a race that arose “just because” there are dragons and crap is just silly. An attachment to mordy would justify them being added to the game. otherwise it just seems like they were added because GW2 needed a naturey race to balance things, and the crap origin story of “tyria called upon us and we arose” crap is like shoehorned writing 101 bullkitten.

Also, why does no one realize that malycks first memory was waking up under a bridge? he wasn’t born from his tree the way our sylvari were born. I think he isn’t corrupted because of his concussion, he doesn’t remember a dream or anything, hes completely cut off from his tree, so how ever malyck acts, it doesn’t determine the attitude of his tree.
I think there is a 100% chance he will be in the living story season 2 because during the personal story missions with him, he says “we will meet again, valiant” about 459860723408957098 times (it got really frustrating). His current goal is to set out west, up river toward magus falls and find his tree, and oohh guess where we’re going in season 2…
That is if caithes secret isn’t that she killed malyck shortly after he left (that is if he already left in the cannon) so that the other tree doesn’t find us or whatever.
What the heck is caithes secret!! it bugs me!!

2 things obviously wrong with your post. 1. Mordremoth is supposed to be an elder dragon, right? Then why are sylvari completely new to tyria, with no record at all of them. 2. Malyck actually is born like all the sylvari, his pod fell into a river flowed down to the bridge, hence why he’s following it back to get to his tree.

His pod fell into a river, it was detached from his tree, As far as we know with our sylvari, their pods are directly connected to the pale tree. His was disconnected, which i think lends to why he isn’t all evil and junk from mordy.
Also, as far as ive seen, the records from the dwarves barely mention any dragon minions besides the ones they dealt with the most, the destroyers and zhaitans undead.
No matter which way you peel the banana, it can always be written for the sylvari to end up being the minions, whether you like it or not. If that’s the direction the devs decide to go, we’ll see. But really, i’d like any kind of origin story that is better than the hippie kitten we have now.

That’s how sylvari are born, they start as pods and fall.

Perhaps, as already discussed, those Pale Tree seeds that have grown so far don’t belong to the original plan anymore. The original plan was to keep the seeds in a hideout where, obviously, they weren’t scheduled to evolve in pale trees. Now, where those seeds come from, who brought them all there, what their purpose are, and who/what should awake/plant them, we don’t know.

As already told, they could either have been placed there by the Dragon before he went asleep, to serve him when he awake (and thus, Mother and Malyck’s Pale Tree went out of this plan), or, they have been placed there as anti-dragon weapons by some entity to help the world when the Dragon awakes (again, the already grown up pale trees are out of this plan, except if the entity, or another one, decided it is better to have some seeds planted earlier than the others).

Erukk.1408:

Miroe.2054:

Königs nightmare yet back again. Just lean back and watch the discussion unfold for the fifth time. There are several threads in the Lore section that are almost identical.

Fifth time? Try something more like the fiftieth time. I’d surprised that Konig hasn’t written down the entire debunking info and saved it somewhere. That way, he can just copy/paste a reply and be done with the threads that crop up all together.

I actually have, although at the moment I’m holding back from (re)deploying it.

Basically, it can be summarised in two points:

First, the theory attempted to explain why the sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, by hypothesising that they’re immune because they’re already corrupted and that protects them from further corruption. However, we see creatures corrupted by multiple dragons in CoE, showing that existing corruption does not prevent further corruption.

Second, the theory relied on being able to rebel from an elder dragon purely through an act of will, as claimed (if only by omission) by Glint in Edge of Destiny. The Forgotten explorable path in Arah shows that there was a lot more to it.

There are more points, but those are the main ones.

To be fair, Scarlet’s behaviour has given it a bit of a shot in the arm, but there are a lot of other possible explanations apart from the one where the Pale Tree is a dragon champion that achieved independence and the experiment stripped Scarlet of her protection from being taken over as a minion again.

Tamias.7059:

I think this downplays somewhat the fact that this “entity” operates through nightmare. And Mordremoth is suspected by some to also operate through the nightmare, which if true would indicate that they may be one and the same. I think the best way to kitten this would be to sidestep the issue entirely and try to look in detail into the nature of the nightmare.

Nothing says that the entity is operating through the Nightmare though. What is said is that entering Omadd’s machine broke down a boundary that is present in “our minds” (said by Vorpp, thus not limited to sylvari) that allowed the entity to get to Scarlet’s mind. Nothing about the Dream or Nightmare in there, really. Players suspect that the boundary broken was removing Scarlet from the Dream (which would thus mean also removing her from the Nightmare).

Erukk.1408:

Fifth time? Try something more like the fiftieth time. I’d surprised that Konig hasn’t written down the entire debunking info and saved it somewhere. That way, he can just copy/paste a reply and be done with the threads that crop up all together.

Because every time I pray foolishly it’ll be the last time a new thread is popped up – or that it’ll be so recent from the previous that I’ll have the energy and patience to just simply link the said previous post/thread.

Foolish hopes all abound.

Haaznahnuff.1907:

Nonetheless, the Nightmare Court uses a kind of magic to pervert sentient beings, such as fernhounds, spiders, and some treants, and even to break and bind sylvari minds in spite of their attachment to the Dream. Some of they may have tapped the Nightmare somehow, not knowing it was draconic magic.

Moreover, we have wurms and husks which are not the product of the Court, but which look the same as the Court’s servants. Perhaps another hint into what might be the next enemy.

They can only alter plants. The animals I’ve actually seen recently to be explained by them taming through violence in mundane ways – wurms too. In those cases, perhaps also with the sylvan hounds and mosshearts too (and their changing shape is just a result of their own biology), the Nightmare Court are little different than dog fight “tamers”. Abusive pet owners that train their pet to relieve their anger and frustration on others.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

I think this downplays somewhat the fact that this “entity” operates through nightmare. And Mordremoth is suspected by some to also operate through the nightmare, which if true would indicate that they may be one and the same. I think the best way to kitten this would be to sidestep the issue entirely and try to look in detail into the nature of the nightmare.

Nothing says that the entity is operating through the Nightmare though. What is said is that entering Omadd’s machine broke down a boundary that is present in “our minds” (said by Vorpp, thus not limited to sylvari) that allowed the entity to get to Scarlet’s mind. Nothing about the Dream or Nightmare in there, really. Players suspect that the boundary broken was removing Scarlet from the Dream (which would thus mean also removing her from the Nightmare).

That’s…not what I was referring to. Rather, Scarlet Briar’s Journal indicates pretty clearly that nightmare is a vector for said “entity”, whatever it may be.

On an unrelated note (in response to what you were talking about above), the boundary broken can’t have been removing Scarlet from the Dream because the Pale Tree spoke to her whilst she was in Omadd’s Isolation Module, if you read the short story. It was in there that, as we are told in-game, when Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

I think this downplays somewhat the fact that this “entity” operates through nightmare. And Mordremoth is suspected by some to also operate through the nightmare, which if true would indicate that they may be one and the same. I think the best way to kitten this would be to sidestep the issue entirely and try to look in detail into the nature of the nightmare.

Nothing says that the entity is operating through the Nightmare though. What is said is that entering Omadd’s machine broke down a boundary that is present in “our minds” (said by Vorpp, thus not limited to sylvari) that allowed the entity to get to Scarlet’s mind. Nothing about the Dream or Nightmare in there, really. Players suspect that the boundary broken was removing Scarlet from the Dream (which would thus mean also removing her from the Nightmare).

That’s…not what I was referring to. Rather, Scarlet Briar’s Journal indicates pretty clearly that nightmare is a vector for said “entity”, whatever it may be.

On an unrelated note (in response to what you were talking about above), the boundary broken can’t have been removing Scarlet from the Dream because the Pale Tree spoke to her whilst she was in Omadd’s Isolation Module, if you read the short story. It was in there that, as we are told in-game, when Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.

that pale tree mother was a hallucination

Having one of the playable races and a large fraction of the player base as secret dragon minions is a completely fruitcake idea. It’s totally unworkable from any sane gameplay perspective. Only the most hardcore Role Player could concoct such contortions of cannon.

Having the nightmare court as dragon minions makes slightly more sense. But only about as much sense as the inquest, or the ministry, or the flame legion also secretly being dragon minions. But there is simply no evidence to support the idea. (If anything, the inquest are the ones with dragon connections).

Just because the nightmare court is evil, doesn’t make them dragon minions. There are plenty of evil races, like the Krait, that are not dragon minions.

That the nightmare court are unwitting dragon minions is somewhat more plausible. But Dragons are not subtle. Having a secret minion army is not their style. There are no examples in the game of dragon minions being unaware of their corruption, or their master, or of whole secret minions armies. Secret dragon minion armies. Say it out loud. Sounds a little far fetched? If it’s true, it’s cringe-makingly bad writing. It’s the stuff that fanboys come up with in their extended universes, or a plot device from “despicable me”.

It’s possible that toxic courtiers could be dragon minions. The toxin could be related to, or derived from dragon corruption, or dragon magic. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mordremoths minions look more like the various toxic creatures.

That Scarlet alone was a (possibly unwitting) servant of Mordremoth is probably the most plausible of these theories, especially given her inquest connections, but we’ll have to wait and see.

Tamias.7059:

That’s…not what I was referring to. Rather, Scarlet Briar’s Journal indicates pretty clearly that nightmare is a vector for said “entity”, whatever it may be.

You seem to be confusing nightmares with The Nightmare.

Tamias.7059:

That’s…not what I was referring to. Rather, Scarlet Briar’s Journal indicates pretty clearly that nightmare is a vector for said “entity”, whatever it may be.

On an unrelated note (in response to what you were talking about above), the boundary broken can’t have been removing Scarlet from the Dream because the Pale Tree spoke to her whilst she was in Omadd’s Isolation Module, if you read the short story. It was in there that, as we are told in-game, when Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.

…..I blame ArenaNet for their overuse of generic terms for specific things… dredge, warden, nightmare, dream, etc. etc. The journal talks about general nightmares (as in, when sleeping), not the Nightmare that is related to the Dream of Dreams. I’m… not quite sure which you think it refers to, since you said “the nightmare” multiple times, which indicates you mean the Dream of Dreams thing, not the “bad dream experience” bit.

To the second bit – but we don’t see all of her vision in the short story. She moves on past the Pale Tree. I think this is the breaking from the Dream that occurs (since it was stated by a dev that the experience did separate her from the Dream, or rather, that Scarlet is akin to Soundless but unintentionally so).

A Massive Headache.1879:

that pale tree mother was a hallucination

As much as I wish it was, the Pale Tree has responded and talked about Scarlet from the time in that vision.

Unless to Scarlet’s mind she was warned twice by the Pale Tree to go no further.

Wanderer.3248:

That the nightmare court are unwitting dragon minions is somewhat more plausible. But Dragons are not subtle. Having a secret minion army is not their style. There are no examples in the game of dragon minions being unaware of their corruption, or their master, or of whole secret minions armies. Secret dragon minion armies. Say it out loud. Sounds a little far fetched? If it’s true, it’s cringe-makingly bad writing. It’s the stuff that fanboys come up with in their extended universes, or a plot device from “despicable me”.

Though I loathe to say this: Actually, there is one example of a corrupted individual who doesn’t know he’s corrupted…

Kellach.

Wanderer.3248:

It’s possible that toxic courtiers could be dragon minions. The toxin could be related to, or derived from dragon corruption, or dragon magic. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mordremoths minions look more like the various toxic creatures.

This theory is supported by the fact that the Toxic Krait are mentally altered into following Scarlet (how they’re altered, or to what extent, we don’t know).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though I loathe to say this: Actually, there is one example of a corrupted individual who doesn’t know he’s corrupted…

Kellach.

Kellach knew he was corrupted. His mistake was thinking he could be cured. Oddly, He does seem to have some free will in that he could actually seek out a cure, but perhaps Zhaitain allowed him that, so that he would be more convincing. In any case, it made for a good story.

Maybe the dragons might sometimes allow some minions the illusion of free will, but I think it’s unlikely that the whole nightmare court is so delusional.

The Kellach story is a good one, a classic tragedy of misguided actions (although the dialog does belabour the point a bit). The nightmare court as secret dragon minions just doesn’t work for me. It seems forced, and a waste of the potential of the court in the storyline. The nightmare court as the rebellious and misguided winter court is a much better tale, with potential to stand on its own.

As Marge Simpson once said, just because something is overly complicated, doesn’t make it a good story. And being obsessed with plot twists in TV shows is not exactly healthy. Ahem.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They can only alter plants. The animals I’ve actually seen recently to be explained by them taming through violence in mundane ways – wurms too. In those cases, perhaps also with the sylvan hounds and mosshearts too (and their changing shape is just a result of their own biology), the Nightmare Court are little different than dog fight “tamers”. Abusive pet owners that train their pet to relieve their anger and frustration on others.

I’d think that spiders are altered too.
Perhaps, it’s simply an overlook by Arena Net, and you would be right about the basic fact that the Nightmare court may have a special kind of Shaper who can change the form of plant-like creatures. But corrupted husks, if non-animal, aren’t a Court creation, and yet they look akin to nightmare hounds and spiders, hence my point about the same origin of this magic.

Wait, I thought there was a dev post stating that the conversation with scarlet was from oxygen deprivation. although, upon remembering talking to the pale tree, I think she did say something about that. that’s dumb

@Haaznahnuff: the spiders aren’t altered. They use typical Forest Spider models.

It’s unclear whether or not the husks are of Court origins or not, but they’re not “corrupted husks” – they’re “summoned husks”. And it seems that there’s a second source (or perhaps just coming directly from the Nightmare, the situation isn’t clear) in Wychmire Swamp.

@A Massive Headache: I don’t recall anything regarding “oxygen deprivation”. I think you mean sensory deprivation? As that’s what was originally said that Omadd’s machine did – cuts off your senses and effectively, separates mind from body. So it wouldn’t prevent communication with the Pale Tree (since the Dream is not part of the body).

A Massive Headache.1879:

200. actually that number might be wrong, but gw eotn there was svannir, corrupted by jormag FAR before he woke up. And from what I can gather, sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, while the dragon minions are not immune to such effects. I don’t think breeding is an issue

Oh and also the sylvari don’t corrupt things, nor does the pale tree.

The dragon minions aren’t immune to any sort of curruption by other dragons? Have we seen any creature that’s been the product of multiple dragons? (Subject alpha doesn’t count).
When I heard about this theory the Sylvari were likened to destroyers, Primordus’ minions. The destroyers don’t corrupt other things, they don’t breed, and unlike the other dragon minions they are created, rather than converted.
And as we see no Destroyers that are risen or corrupted by ice or crystal, the idea was that they can’t be. That one dragon generally can’t take the minions of another dragon. The Sylvari are the only major players we never see dragon minion versions of of. This is the crux (and I think it was the start) of the whole theory: The Sylvari are Mordremoth’s version of Destroyers.
There are plenty of variations you could take of course. Perhaps in a previous cycle one of Mordremoth’s champions was freed much as Glint was, and the Sylvari are the descendants of that, so they are a generation or more free. We know Glint was able to have offspring, though we don’t know what happened to them. If the human shaped Sylvari are the product of a rogue general, it would explain them not being seen by those fighting the dragons (especially if it all happened the cycle before the previous one, the seeds lying dormant since… although I have no idea how many cycles there have been…) and they’d have that immunity to dragon corruption.

There is also plenty of room for holes. We don’t know that the dragons CAN’T corrupt each other’s minions, maybe they just don’t? Maybe they generally consider each other allies, or at least neutral as long as they stay out of each other’s way.

Wanderer.3248:

Tamias.7059:

That’s…not what I was referring to. Rather, Scarlet Briar’s Journal indicates pretty clearly that nightmare is a vector for said “entity”, whatever it may be.

You seem to be confusing nightmares with The Nightmare.

It’s a pretty bold statement to make that when a sleeping sylvari experiences nightmares, that’s something entirely different from the Nightmare, given the shared name and how little we know about how the sylvari sleep. You’re saying that ArenaNet introduced Mordremoth, a dragon that appears (and is suspected by players) to use Nightmare somehow, at almost the same time as some other entity which influences Scarlet using nightmares. I just don’t see that as plausible.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A Massive Headache.1879:

Wait, I thought there was a dev post stating that the conversation with scarlet was from oxygen deprivation. although, upon remembering talking to the pale tree, I think she did say something about that. that’s dumb

I don’t recall anything regarding “oxygen deprivation”. I think you mean sensory deprivation? As that’s what was originally said that Omadd’s machine did – cuts off your senses and effectively, separates mind from body. So it wouldn’t prevent communication with the Pale Tree (since the Dream is not part of the body).

Slow down there, tiger! Where is it said that the Dream is not an aspect of sylvari biology? The point of Omadd’s Isolation Module, as with real-life sensory deprivation chambers, is not to separate mind from body (although I’m not saying that didn’t happen in What Scarlet Saw), but to isolate an individual from the outside world—in this case, to separate Scarlet from Tyria. This means that the Dream must be somehow inherent to the sylvari, and as much is said (explicitly so, in fact) in The Dead End: A Study in Scarlet:

Vorpp: “This is Synergetics Headmaster Omadd’s isolation module. A sylvari named Ceara went in; Scarlet came out.”
Vorpp: “I reverse-engineered an image of Ceara’s aura patterns before and after. The schism is pronounced and dramatic.”
Vorpp: “Yesss. I remember Professor Omadd. He outsmarted me in several Polymock tournaments. I’m sure he cheated…but that’s beside the point. He never should have put Ceara in that cube.”
Player: “What can you tell me about the cube?”
Vorpp: “His notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it—like opening a door—to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason.”
Player: “When Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.”
Vorpp: “Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought.”
Vorpp: “I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection?”
Vorpp: “We’d need to do a far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”
Vorpp: “What I can conclude now is that she’s preparing to strike. Mark my words: Scarlet’s next attack is planned and ready.”

Specifically, “…the only things in [Ceara’s mind] were things that she brought”, referring to the “thing” she saw that broke her mind. He also makes explicit reference to the Dream, with “We’d need to do a far more extensive study of the Dream…”.

I understand that Vorp tells us that Omadd did allow one sylvari to glance at her very own, deep, and hidden nature, a nature specific to the sylvari. Well, well, well.
I’d bet that the barrier that had to be breached is the one the Pale Tree builds (or has being built) in the mind of all her fruits before they awake.

It’s been stated several times in-game that dragon corruptions cannot co-exist. Being branded makes a creature immune from becoming risen, and being a destroyer makes something immune from becoming iceblood.

And yes, CoE does have something that’s made up of multiple dragon corruptions, both Kudu’s giant and Subject Alpha. But remember this. Scientists in real life have been able to grow human ears off of the backs of mice. Just because a bunch of mad scientists working in a lab can make somethign doesn’t mean it can happen in nature. Just because Subject Alpha is a creature of multiple dragon corruptions doesn’t change the fact that in normal circumstances the corruptions are mutually exclusive.

So yes, the fact that Sylvari cannot become risen/branded/iceblood/etc could very well possibly mean that they are just humans who’ve been ‘blighted’, and that Ventari’s Tablet and the Pale Tree somehow are freeing them from Mordremoth’s influence, the same way that Glint was freed of Kralkatorrik’s.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

The dragon minions aren’t immune to any sort of curruption by other dragons? Have we seen any creature that’s been the product of multiple dragons? (Subject alpha doesn’t count).
When I heard about this theory the Sylvari were likened to destroyers, Primordus’ minions. The destroyers don’t corrupt other things, they don’t breed, and unlike the other dragon minions they are created, rather than converted.
And as we see no Destroyers that are risen or corrupted by ice or crystal, the idea was that they can’t be. That one dragon generally can’t take the minions of another dragon. The Sylvari are the only major players we never see dragon minion versions of of. This is the crux (and I think it was the start) of the whole theory: The Sylvari are Mordremoth’s version of Destroyers.

We haven’t seen any dragon minion interact beyond Crucible of Eternity. And why doesn’t Subject Alpha count? Because he proves your argument invalid? Subject Alpha isn’t the only case anyways – Kudu and Kudu’s Monster in story mode are also just like Subject Alpha.

Tamias.7059:

It’s a pretty bold statement to make that when a sleeping sylvari experiences nightmares, that’s something entirely different from the Nightmare, given the shared name and how little we know about how the sylvari sleep. You’re saying that ArenaNet introduced Mordremoth, a dragon that appears (and is suspected by players) to use Nightmare somehow, at almost the same time as some other entity which influences Scarlet using nightmares. I just don’t see that as plausible.

I fail to see why a nightmare – a negative dream, which in turn is a figment of the imagination, typically – would be the same as the Nightmare – a malignant and twisting force within the Dream of Dreams, which is a (meta)physical place made of memories and ether (not dissimilar to the Mists).

To claim a similarity between nightmares – which every race has – to the Nightmare is a mighty bold statement indeed! Especially without any evidence.

Tamias.7059:

Slow down there, tiger! Where is it said that the Dream is not an aspect of sylvari biology? The point of Omadd’s Isolation Module, as with real-life sensory deprivation chambers, is not to separate mind from body (although I’m not saying that didn’t happen in What Scarlet Saw), but to isolate an individual from the outside world—in this case, to separate Scarlet from Tyria. This means that the Dream must be somehow inherent to the sylvari, and as much is said (explicitly so, in fact) in The Dead End: A Study in Scarlet:

Being inherent to sylvari and not part of their body are two very different things. Because the mind/soul/consciousness are not part of the leaves and foilage that is the sylvari body. That is what I was saying. I was not saying that the Dream is not inherent to sylvari (though it doesn’t seem to be unique to them either, given the White Stag and A Light in the Darkness).

Haaznahnuff.1907:

I understand that Vorp tells us that Omadd did allow one sylvari to glance at her very own, deep, and hidden nature, a nature specific to the sylvari. Well, well, well.
I’d bet that the barrier that had to be breached is the one the Pale Tree builds (or has being built) in the mind of all her fruits before they awake.

But Vorpp says, and I quote:

Vorpp: “His notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it—like opening a door—to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason.”

To repeat: But our minds are protected for a reason.

He’s not talking about sylvari minds, but “our” minds. As in, given the context, general sapient (or perhaps, simply living) beings.

Dakota.4591:

It’s been stated several times in-game that dragon corruptions cannot co-exist. Being branded makes a creature immune from becoming risen, and being a destroyer makes something immune from becoming iceblood.

Source. Because I have never seen this. There are only TWO cases of dragon corruption immunity ever brought up:

1. Sylvari (and possibly their magic, this isn’t clarified but it is implied a bit).
2. Forgotten magic.

Dakota.4591:

And yes, CoE does have something that’s made up of multiple dragon corruptions, both Kudu’s giant and Subject Alpha. But remember this. Scientists in real life have been able to grow human ears off of the backs of mice. Just because a bunch of mad scientists working in a lab can make somethign doesn’t mean it can happen in nature. Just because Subject Alpha is a creature of multiple dragon corruptions doesn’t change the fact that in normal circumstances the corruptions are mutually exclusive.

But if Subject Alpha (and Kudu, and Kudu’s Monster) can be scientifically made to be corrupted by multiple dragons’ corruption, then that proves that it is actually possible to be corrupted by multiple dragons’ corruption – even if something needs to be altered to make it possible first.

Dakota.4591:

So yes, the fact that Sylvari cannot become risen/branded/iceblood/etc could very well possibly mean that they are just humans who’ve been ‘blighted’, and that Ventari’s Tablet and the Pale Tree somehow are freeing them from Mordremoth’s influence, the same way that Glint was freed of Kralkatorrik’s.

Ventari’s Tablet wouldn’t be freeing them because it holds no magic. It’s just a stone with text on it. Glint was freed by powerful and ancient magic that is immune to dragon corruption for still unknown reasons.

However, dragon minions have not shown to be immune to corruption, unless you can provide a source for that…?

Why would Anet make Sylvari as dragon minions? However some theories make sense and even I saw some possible truth in them. BUT…
If Mordremoth wakes up the regular Sylvari won’t become dragon minions just because he woke up. If that was true it would mean that even Sylvari characters would be under Mordremoth’s command as well, so unplayable since they belong to The Pale Tree as well.

On the other hand it is possible that it will corrupt sylvari’s like Jormag does with icebrood. But turning all Sylvari into minions in 1 instant wouldn’t make sense since characters belong to Sylvari tribe as well.

Fauven.3195:

If Mordremoth wakes up the regular Sylvari won’t become dragon minions just because he woke up.

Yeah, that’s the thing that needs to be stressed here. Sylvari from our Pale Tree are safeguarded by the Dream, heavily influenced by Ventari’s teachings. Even if there was some latent corruption, given the Pale Tree’s resistance to Nightmare, it’s unlikely our sylvari would be turned. However, other Pale Trees – and thus, other sylvari – without the moral anchor of Ventari’s teachings may be more susceptible, and if Mordremoth really needs minions, and has an understanding of their Dreams (unknown whether he does or not since we don’t know if he broke Scarlet’s mind), then it’s not far-fetched to see him corrupting them.

The question of whether even those sylvari will display physical corruption is another matter. Probably; there’s still some cool “evil plant” concept art out there, and it’s more than just the “evil clothes” worn by the Nightmare Court. I’m talking full-on, mossman, lurker in the swamp kind of evil plants.

A Massive Headache.1879:

Wait, I thought there was a dev post stating that the conversation with scarlet was from oxygen deprivation. although, upon remembering talking to the pale tree, I think she did say something about that. that’s dumb

Sensory deprivation can cause hallucinations.

Even prolonged isolation (e.g. A padded cell) has been known to cause delusions and hallucinations.

Corax.7381:

Fauven.3195:

If Mordremoth wakes up the regular Sylvari won’t become dragon minions just because he woke up.

Yeah, that’s the thing that needs to be stressed here. Sylvari from our Pale Tree are safeguarded by the Dream, heavily influenced by Ventari’s teachings. Even if there was some latent corruption, given the Pale Tree’s resistance to Nightmare, it’s unlikely our sylvari would be turned. However, other Pale Trees – and thus, other sylvari – without the moral anchor of Ventari’s teachings may be more susceptible, and if Mordremoth really needs minions, and has an understanding of their Dreams (unknown whether he does or not since we don’t know if he broke Scarlet’s mind), then it’s not far-fetched to see him corrupting them.

The question of whether even those sylvari will display physical corruption is another matter. Probably; there’s still some cool “evil plant” concept art out there, and it’s more than just the “evil clothes” worn by the Nightmare Court. I’m talking full-on, mossman, lurker in the swamp kind of evil plants.

So much of this is just speculation it borders on fan fiction.

Tamias.7059:

It’s a pretty bold statement to make that when a sleeping sylvari experiences nightmares, that’s something entirely different from the Nightmare, given the shared name and how little we know about how the sylvari sleep. You’re saying that ArenaNet introduced Mordremoth, a dragon that appears (and is suspected by players) to use Nightmare somehow, at almost the same time as some other entity which influences Scarlet using nightmares. I just don’t see that as plausible.

You don’t see someone having bad dreams as plausible? What an odd statement.

Not every dream is The Dream. The Dream isn’t a dream either.

And lastly, we still don’t know it’s Mordremoth. I mean seriously, evil creature in bad dreams is a pretty common story trope. Ever seen nightmare on elm street?

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

And as we see no Destroyers that are risen or corrupted by ice or crystal, the idea was that they can’t be.

Or maybe just because a risen destroyer would be lame, and no self respecting game designer would take things that far.