Guild Wars 2

Corax.7381:

However, other Pale Trees – and thus, other sylvari – without the moral anchor of Ventari’s teachings may be more susceptible, and if Mordremoth really needs minions, and has an understanding of their Dreams (unknown whether he does or not since we don’t know if he broke Scarlet’s mind), then it’s not far-fetched to see him corrupting them.

Ventari’s teachings would do nothing to prevent dragon corruption. Dragon corruption forcefully alters the personality of the corrupted, and no high moral standing woudl change that. See all those Orrians? They were fanatic towards the (to them) Five Gods (to others now, Six Gods), and now? They’re all “praise Zhaitan, hail Zhaitan, Zhaitan eats gods, the gods lie!” etc. etc.

Corax.7381:

Probably; there’s still some cool “evil plant” concept art out there, and it’s more than just the “evil clothes” worn by the Nightmare Court. I’m talking full-on, mossman, lurker in the swamp kind of evil plants.

Those are concept arts by Kekai Kotaki from long before release. They were the first iteration of Nightmare Court concept arts and were scrapped.

Wanderer.3248:

And lastly, we still don’t know it’s Mordremoth. I mean seriously, evil creature in bad dreams is a pretty common story trope. Ever seen nightmare on elm street?

A Tyrian version of Freddy Krueger?

~Pictures a being of Nightmare killing off the unborn Sylvari in the Dream, leaving the bodies to be born stillborn, as well as causing wide scale hallucinations in Sylvari npcs.~

Make it happen Anet! MAKE IT HAPPEN!

If the White Stag is also part of the dream, then the area that the pale tree was planted in may be magical. It may be magic that resides naturally in the area of the grove that keeps Mordremoth’s corruption from taking hold of the sylvari from the grove.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But Vorpp says, and I quote:

Vorpp: “His notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it—like opening a door—to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason.”

To repeat: But our minds are protected for a reason.

He’s not talking about sylvari minds, but “our” minds. As in, given the context, general sapient (or perhaps, simply living) beings.

That’s not what I read, there are some few sentences to read along the one you quoted:

Vorpp: “His notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it—like opening a door— to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason.”
Player: “When Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.”
Vorpp: “Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought.”
Vorpp: “I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection?”
Vorpp: “We’d need to do a far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream

• Granted, the cube’s primary goal was to use the mind to explore part of the Alchemy (and the machine’s purpose was to lower the natural mind defense).
• But, in the case of the sylvari (or perhaps in Scarlet’s case only — it’s not clear), something hidden (walled off) in their mind is harmful. I read that the subjects are not harmed by something laying outside (like an over-exposed sensor), but by something laying inside them. Alright, this could apply to all sentient species if this hidden bit was their soul or divine bit inside of them… but Vorpp clearly isolates the sylvari case.
• Vorpp’s doesn’t say he’s got to study the Alchimy in order to understand what happened, he says he’s got to study the Dream (even if we can see it as a part of the Alchimy). I find that it’s a pretty difference, if all his sayings are self-coherent, that is.

So, I just want to toss this out there….

We don’t know how Mordy gets his minions…

Just because the Pale Tree is not corrupt to begin with does not mean she was not at some point intended to be his champion.

Glint existed as a sentient being prior to being corrupted by Kral and thus becoming his champion.

Primordus makes his minions from stone and lava, though according to lore he can corrupt existing creatures into minions as well.

Zaihtan requires dead bodies…

Its really not all the far out there to believe that Mordy grows his minions and then ‘activates’ them after waking up (and not waking up until there are enough of them spawned). It’d make for an excellent cover honestly.

Beyond that, if the Nightmare Court are correct and they are what the Sylvari should have been, would that not lead you to believe that they might be tied to the dragon? They aren’t exactly peace loving…

Haaznahnuff.1907:

• Granted, the cube’s primary goal was to use the mind to explore part of the Alchemy (and the machine’s purpose was to lower the natural mind defense).
• But, in the case of the sylvari (or perhaps in Scarlet’s case only — it’s not clear), something hidden (walled off) in their mind is harmful. I read that the subjects are not harmed by something laying outside (like an over-exposed sensor), but by something laying inside them. Alright, this could apply to all sentient species if this hidden bit was their soul or divine bit inside of them… but Vorpp clearly isolates the sylvari case.
• Vorpp’s doesn’t say he’s got to study the Alchimy in order to understand what happened, he says he’s got to study the Dream (even if we can see it as a part of the Alchimy). I find that it’s a pretty difference, if all his sayings are self-coherent, that is.

My point was that the “protection” that Vorpp mentions is not unique to sylvari, so whatever was removed from Scarlet is not unique to sylvari.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

So, I just want to toss this out there….

We don’t know how Mordy gets his minions…

Just because the Pale Tree is not corrupt to begin with does not mean she was not at some point intended to be his champion.

Glint existed as a sentient being prior to being corrupted by Kral and thus becoming his champion.

Primordus makes his minions from stone and lava, though according to lore he can corrupt existing creatures into minions as well.

Zaihtan requires dead bodies…

Its really not all the far out there to believe that Mordy grows his minions and then ‘activates’ them after waking up (and not waking up until there are enough of them spawned). It’d make for an excellent cover honestly.

Beyond that, if the Nightmare Court are correct and they are what the Sylvari should have been, would that not lead you to believe that they might be tied to the dragon? They aren’t exactly peace loving…

In regards to Glint – that seems to be no different than normal beings becoming corrupted (e.g., most branded, icebrood, and risen).

It seems weird for the Elder Dragons to make non-fanatical minions just to later make them fanatical minions. What is the point of it? While it is true that each Elder Dragon functions and corrupts differently, it seems just pointblank a waste of energy with no proper positive to make minions that would actively try to kill him and then later corrupt them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

So, I just want to toss this out there….

We don’t know how Mordy gets his minions…

Just because the Pale Tree is not corrupt to begin with does not mean she was not at some point intended to be his champion.

Glint existed as a sentient being prior to being corrupted by Kral and thus becoming his champion.

Primordus makes his minions from stone and lava, though according to lore he can corrupt existing creatures into minions as well.

Zaihtan requires dead bodies…

Its really not all the far out there to believe that Mordy grows his minions and then ‘activates’ them after waking up (and not waking up until there are enough of them spawned). It’d make for an excellent cover honestly.

Beyond that, if the Nightmare Court are correct and they are what the Sylvari should have been, would that not lead you to believe that they might be tied to the dragon? They aren’t exactly peace loving…

In regards to Glint – that seems to be no different than normal beings becoming corrupted (e.g., most branded, icebrood, and risen).

It seems weird for the Elder Dragons to make non-fanatical minions just to later make them fanatical minions. What is the point of it? While it is true that each Elder Dragon functions and corrupts differently, it seems just pointblank a waste of energy with no proper positive to make minions that would actively try to kill him and then later corrupt them.

The point I was making with Glint is that she was a free sentient creature before being corrupted. People argue that because the Pale Tree is not corrupt by default she cannot be a dragon minion, or was never intended to be so. That’s not necessarily true.

But the sylvari aren’t (well weren’t) actively trying to kill him. They could be grown with the “programming” to follow after he rises, and not realize it. From the looks of things, they weren’t even aware of him. I think the Pale Tree was. If there are other Pale Trees, and their offspring are like the Nightmare Court by nature, the trees could very well be champions, growing an army waiting to be claimed. Similar to the great destroyer raising minions in the depths during eotn, but Primordus wasn’t awake yet (not enough minions yet maybe?) Killing his champion delayed his awakening, something similar could have been happening here.

It’s just a theory, obviously. We don’t have all the bits and pieces, but thus far things seem to line up.

Wait, so if the speculation holds weight, we might see more Sylvari in important Living Story updates?

/cry
#NoPlantDrow2014

Still, the theory is very intriguing! I’ll shelve my curiosity so it’s ready for the big reveal.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The point I was making with Glint is that she was a free sentient creature before being corrupted. People argue that because the Pale Tree is not corrupt by default she cannot be a dragon minion, or was never intended to be so. That’s not necessarily true.

But the sylvari aren’t (well weren’t) actively trying to kill him. They could be grown with the “programming” to follow after he rises, and not realize it. From the looks of things, they weren’t even aware of him. I think the Pale Tree was. If there are other Pale Trees, and their offspring are like the Nightmare Court by nature, the trees could very well be champions, growing an army waiting to be claimed. Similar to the great destroyer raising minions in the depths during eotn, but Primordus wasn’t awake yet (not enough minions yet maybe?) Killing his champion delayed his awakening, something similar could have been happening here.

It’s just a theory, obviously. We don’t have all the bits and pieces, but thus far things seem to line up.

1. While it is possible that the Pale Tree may be capable of being corrupted, this was not brought up in any way, shape, or form in this thread. The argument has been that the Pale Tree is already corrupted – and was, most likely, born so. This is what I’ve been saying holds little to no water in theorycrafting.
2. Sylvari on a whole are actively trying to fight all Elder Dragons, even the Nightmare Court view the Elder Dragons as the ultimate threat! But dragon minions only clash if they happen to cross each others’ paths (and we never see such in-game).
3. I think Malyck proves that other Pale Tree’s children won’t be like the Nightmare Court by nature, since falling to the Nightmare is irriversible and turns someone from spouting “truth and love will overcome even the Nightmare!” to “I will burn villages, slaughter innocents, and bath in their blood all for you my love.” (paraphrasing of Tiachern’s words from sylvari Shield of the Moon personal story).
4. And again, with the mention of “programming” – why would he do such? It’s counter-productive to give your enemy an army while you’re incapable of doing anything. Plus, unlike the Great Destroyer (and Glint, and Drakkar, and the Risen Giganticus Lupicus – if not far more), the Pale Tree isn’t from the previous rise (according to the Priory, this was 11,000+ years ago) but instead is only 250 years old.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. While it is possible that the Pale Tree may be capable of being corrupted, this was not brought up in any way, shape, or form in this thread. The argument has been that the Pale Tree is already corrupted – and was, most likely, born so. This is what I’ve been saying holds little to no water in theorycrafting.

She could very well have been created / born with the corruption within her, but actively fights it. Using the dream as a means of protecting her offspring from it. It wouldn’t be the first storyline to go that route. Scarlet’s back story sort of implies that something along those lines may be happening. Thus, the dragon may be trying to ‘re-corrupt’ or at least subdue her.

1. Sylvari on a whole are actively trying to fight all Elder Dragons, even the Nightmare Court view the Elder Dragons as the ultimate threat! But dragon minions only clash if they happen to cross each others’ paths (and we never see such in-game).

I think our sylvari a bit different than how they should/ would have been, even the Nightmare Court is affected simply due to the Tree’s shielding.

One dragon’s minions are also not corruptible by the other dragons, and Sylvari are seemingly the only race immune to becoming risen, or branded. An interesting coincidence.

1. I think Malyck proves that other Pale Tree’s children won’t be like the Nightmare Court by nature, since falling to the Nightmare is irriversible and turns someone from spouting “truth and love will overcome even the Nightmare!” to “I will burn villages, slaughter innocents, and bath in their blood all for you my love.” (paraphrasing of Tiachern’s words from sylvari Shield of the Moon personal story).

Malyck seems to have been prematurely separated from his Pale Tree. At least that’s what I get from his back story anyway. It’s possible his ‘programming’ was not complete. We really don’t know enough about him, beyond that he comes from a different tree. It’s potentially possible that the tree he comes from was destroyed, which if that turns out to be the case, one would wonder why.

1. And again, with the mention of “programming” – why would he do such? It’s counter-productive to give your enemy an army while you’re incapable of doing anything.

Why would Mordy grow his own army? Because he’s a plant creature maybe and that would seemingly fit his nature? Of course, in the previous rises he may not have encountered any issues with his grown army being corrupted against him in any fashion, there weren’t humans at that point.

This really isn’t any different than what the Great Destroyer did in EotN. Primordus wasn’t awake then, wasn’t truly in control. The Great Destroyer was in control of the army, building it for his master. Spreading their control.

Similarly here, the Pale Tree is the one in control of the army. If all Sylvari were like the Nightmare Court, and the Pale Tree evil, you don’t think their actions would be similar?

Personally, I think there are too many “coincidental” similarities. As Gibb’s would say – “There’s no such thing as coincidence.”

Plus, unlike the Great Destroyer (and Glint, and Drakkar, and the Risen Giganticus Lupicus – if not far more), the Pale Tree isn’t from the previous rise (according to the Priory, this was 11,000+ years ago) but instead is only 250 years old.

Again, we lack information. How old was the seed before Ronin brought it to the glade? How old were the plant creatures that were guarding it when he took it? What was their function? All we know is that they were ‘powerful plant creatures’ and that the Pale Tree was but one of many seeds. It’s possible that the creatures were left over from the previous rise and their function was to spread the seeds when the next rise was imminent. Obviously the seeds were important, otherwise they wouldn’t have been under guard.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

snip

dragon corruption can be combined, pretty good indicator that dragon minions corruption doesn’t make it immune to further corruption. There is no magic “freeing” of the pale tree, so it either is or is not corrupted, and since sylvari are good, it’s not corrupted. The dwarves, jotun, and mursaat are ancient races around since the before the dragons were awake the last time, the dwarves have no record of there ever being sylvari before, nor does it indicate the jotun had either, because of that, it’s pretty obvious the sylvari are a new race completely, and seeing as how mordremoth is ancient as well, they’re not his minions.

A Massive Headache.1879:

dragon corruption can be combined, pretty good indicator that dragon minions corruption doesn’t make it immune to further corruption. There is no magic “freeing” of the pale tree, so it either is or is not corrupted, and since sylvari are good, it’s not corrupted. The dwarves, jotun, and mursaat are ancient races around since the before the dragons were awake the last time, the dwarves have no record of there ever being sylvari before, nor does it indicate the jotun had either, because of that, it’s pretty obvious the sylvari are a new race completely, and seeing as how mordremoth is ancient as well, they’re not his minions.

I thought I read somewhere that one dragon’s minions could not be corrupted (and thus stolen) by another dragon. Have to see if I can find that again.

No, there is no magical freeing of the pale tree, but that does not mean she did not reject it of her own accord. Similarly to how Jora rejected Jormag. The Pale Tree is her own sentient being, and perhaps due to the interference of Ronin and Ventari she made the choice to reject the influence of Mordy. This does not rule out being born with the darkness within her, or her having been intended for something else previously.

No, there are no known records of there previously being Sylvari; however, it is pointed out in the game that most of the old history has been lost. There is much the old races do not remember. Just because there is no record saying they weren’t there doesn’t mean that they weren’t. Those records simply could have been lost due to time. Of course, previous incarnations may have different as well. We don’t know.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

She could very well have been created / born with the corruption within her, but actively fights it. Using the dream as a means of protecting her offspring from it. It wouldn’t be the first storyline to go that route. Scarlet’s back story sort of implies that something along those lines may be happening. Thus, the dragon may be trying to ‘re-corrupt’ or at least subdue her.

Corruption isn’t really something that can be fought. Once corrupted, the individual’s mind is fully fanatic to serving the dragon whom it was corrupted by.

Thus far, the only counter to dragon corruption that exists is the Forgotten’s magic.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think our sylvari a bit different than how they should/ would have been, even the Nightmare Court is affected simply due to the Tree’s shielding.

One dragon’s minions are also not corruptible by the other dragons, and Sylvari are seemingly the only race immune to becoming risen, or branded. An interesting coincidence.

Crucible of Eternity shows that dragon minions are corruptible. And nothing indicates that CoE’s cases is impossible in other situations.

Again, Forgotten had magic immune to corruption (and even capable of reverting the mental side of it).

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Malyck seems to have been prematurely separated from his Pale Tree. At least that’s what I get from his back story anyway. It’s possible his ‘programming’ was not complete. We really don’t know enough about him, beyond that he comes from a different tree. It’s potentially possible that the tree he comes from was destroyed, which if that turns out to be the case, one would wonder why.

There really is no reason to believe that, and corruption would be instantaneous anyways, as it is with all other Elder Dragons.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Why would Mordy grow his own army? Because he’s a plant creature maybe and that would seemingly fit his nature? Of course, in the previous rises he may not have encountered any issues with his grown army being corrupted against him in any fashion, there weren’t humans at that point.

This really isn’t any different than what the Great Destroyer did in EotN. Primordus wasn’t awake then, wasn’t truly in control. The Great Destroyer was in control of the army, building it for his master. Spreading their control.

Similarly here, the Pale Tree is the one in control of the army. If all Sylvari were like the Nightmare Court, and the Pale Tree evil, you don’t think their actions would be similar?

Personally, I think there are too many “coincidental” similarities. As Gibb’s would say – “There’s no such thing as coincidence.”

Why would Mordremoth grow an army that don’t listen to him and are wanting to kill him and his ilk?

The Great Destroyer existed from the previous Dragonrise. Elder Dragons don’t corrupt when they’re hibernating, their champions left behind (Great Destroyer, Drakkar, etc.) do it for them. They are not born while the Elder Dragons hibernate, and the dragon champions are always just as fanatic for their master whether their master is awake, sleeping, or even dead (as shown with Arah explorable). I think there’s a very fine difference between the Great Destroyer – or any other dragon minion, even Glint – and the Pale Tree (even if we were to assume for argument’s sake that the Pale Tree is a champion).

The Nightmare Court is still anti-Elder Dragon though. They just have a different belief for how to go about it.

Coincidences don’t exist in NCIS because the NCIS writers ensure there are no coincidences. If a writer wishes for a coincidence to exist, it will exist.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Again, we lack information. How old was the seed before Ronin brought it to the glade? How old were the plant creatures that were guarding it when he took it? What was their function? All we know is that they were ‘powerful plant creatures’ and that the Pale Tree was but one of many seeds. It’s possible that the creatures were left over from the previous rise and their function was to spread the seeds when the next rise was imminent. Obviously the seeds were important, otherwise they wouldn’t have been under guard.

And there are many, many plant creatures out there beyond Mordremoth’s minions – which, I should note, haven’t even been proven to be plants yet! (even if it is most likely) But in your scenario, the seeds would be corrupted and we know two things:

1) Dragon minions cannot create new life, except when twisting inanimate objects into new living beings (e.g., Destroyers, the Shatterer).
2) The Pale Tree nor any sylvari (Dreamer or Nightmare Courtier) are not fanatic to any Elder Dragon, which is one of the two sole commonalities amongst dragon minions. And there’s no indication of Forgotten magic being used on them.

IF sylvari are dragon minions – and that’s a bit if – then they were purified by the Forgotten during the previous rise. But there’s a very important question to ask: why is there no documentation of sylvari or sylvari-like beings? If the sylvari were Mordremoth’s minions, there’d be documentations in ancient jotun and dwarven relics of sylvari-like beings.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

No, there is no magical freeing of the pale tree, but that does not mean she did not reject it of her own accord. Similarly to how Jora rejected Jormag. The Pale Tree is her own sentient being, and perhaps due to the interference of Ronin and Ventari she made the choice to reject the influence of Mordy. This does not rule out being born with the darkness within her, or her having been intended for something else previously.

You don’t seem to get that that is not actually possible.

Once corrupted, there is no going back. This is emphasized many times. Jora was able to resist Jormag’s corruption because Jormag is unique amongst the Elder Dragons – he prefers to persuade or seduce individuals to willingly join him, and then corrupt. Not willing? He batters you down until you are willing (and then corrupts). But you can win that attempt – just like Zojja and Snaff do against the Dragonspawn in Edge of Destiny. The Sons of Svanir break this code frequently, and he and his champions do use corpses whom lack will, but it’s a frontal point that Jormag seeks to persuade rather than enslave – unlike the other Elder Dragons.

No other dragon does this. And Mordremoth certainly doesn’t show this. But again: once corrupted, there is only one solution: ancient Forgotten magic that’s only been recently discovered.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

No, there are no known records of there previously being Sylvari; however, it is pointed out in the game that most of the old history has been lost. There is much the old races do not remember. Just because there is no record saying they weren’t there doesn’t mean that they weren’t. Those records simply could have been lost due to time. Of course, previous incarnations may have different as well. We don’t know.

Yes, most old history has been lost.

But there are still knowledge of Jormag, Zhaitan, Primordus, risen, icebrood, and destroyers all about. There’s still knowledge of six Elder Dragons existing. There’s still the knowledge from Glint. There’s enough knowledge to argue that if there were dragon minions made of plants that mimicked other races much like destroyers whom are made of rock and lava mimic other races, one would expect knowledge of such to have existed in some form.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thus far, the only counter to dragon corruption that exists is the Forgotten’s magic.

That we know of. This does not mean that others don’t exist.

Crucible of Eternity shows that dragon minions are corruptible. And nothing indicates that CoE’s cases is impossible in other situations.

I’ll have to go replay / reread that info. I must have missed that tidbit when I did it.

There really is no reason to believe that, and corruption would be instantaneous anyways, as it is with all other Elder Dragons.

In Kralk’s case, corruption is instantaneous. There is nothing that says it would be for all others. Jormag with his seduction isn’t instantaneous. It may not be for Mordy either. They all work a little differently.

Why would Mordremoth grow an army that don’t listen to him and are wanting to kill him and his ilk?

If the Pale Tree had not been influenced by Ventari, perhaps they wouldn’t be fighting him. If they had all turned out like the Nightmare Court with the tree functioning closer to whatever her darker version was ‘supposed to be’ (since the Nightmare Court believe she’s supposed to be something darker), they could easily have ended up obeying him.

The Great Destroyer existed from the previous Dragonrise. Elder Dragons don’t corrupt when they’re hibernating, their champions left behind (Great Destroyer, Drakkar, etc.) do it for them. They are not born while the Elder Dragons hibernate, and the dragon champions are always just as fanatic for their master whether their master is awake, sleeping, or even dead (as shown with Arah explorable). I think there’s a very fine difference between the Great Destroyer – or any other dragon minion, even Glint – and the Pale Tree (even if we were to assume for argument’s sake that the Pale Tree is a champion).

This still does not rule out the possibility of her original intent having been to be a champion or at the very least, some type of minion. She wasn’t the only seed in that cave, and we don’t know what the function of the guards was. We have no idea where they came from. No one does. We can only speculate.

The Nightmare Court is still anti-Elder Dragon though. They just have a different belief for how to go about it.

And again, this could still be attributed to the Pale Tree’s overall influence over them. Of course she’s going to instill in all of them that the Elder Dragon is the enemy.

Coincidences don’t exist in NCIS because the NCIS writers ensure there are no coincidences. If a writer wishes for a coincidence to exist, it will exist.

sigh Nevermind, it went completely over your head.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

That we know of. This does not mean that others don’t exist.

Nor is there reason to believe others exist, beyond the Dream causing death upon corruption.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

In Kralk’s case, corruption is instantaneous. There is nothing that says it would be for all others. Jormag with his seduction isn’t instantaneous. It may not be for Mordy either. They all work a little differently.

In Jormag’s case it is instantaneous, actually. Once you give in, you’re corrupted. The physical aspects are changes over time, though. Zhaitan is also instantaneous – with Zhaitan, when risen attack in force, the bodies of the fallen are said to not even have enough time to hit the ground before the skin turns gray and rotten and they turn on their former comrades.

There is not a single Elder Dragon who’s corruption, once it affects the individual, is not instantly taken affect.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

If the Pale Tree had not been influenced by Ventari, perhaps they wouldn’t be fighting him. If they had all turned out like the Nightmare Court with the tree functioning closer to whatever her darker version was ‘supposed to be’ (since the Nightmare Court believe she’s supposed to be something darker), they could easily have ended up obeying him.

The Nightmare Court still fight the Elder Dragons, as I said. A mere tablet cannot cure dragon corruption – if that was enough, then it wouldn’t be nearly as bad of an issue. People whom are fully hating of the Elder Dragons become fanatical servants; people whom know nothing of the Elder Dragons become fanatical servants. Mere willpower is only a case with Jormag’s seductions.

[quote=4105486;LanfearShadowflame.3189:This still does not rule out the possibility of her original intent having been to be a champion or at the very least, some type of minion. She wasn’t the only seed in that cave, and we don’t know what the function of the guards was. We have no idea where they came from. No one does. We can only speculate.[/quote]The only possibility would have been purification by Forgotten magic at the current point, and there’s no evidence to point to this.

And you’re right – we have no idea where they came from. So who’s to say they’re not meant to be weapons to fight the Elder Dragons, much like the dwarves’ stone form?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

And again, this could still be attributed to the Pale Tree’s overall influence over them. Of course she’s going to instill in all of them that the Elder Dragon is the enemy.

Except that they reject the Pale Tree and break their ties to her and all she has management over.

But if the Pale Tree is a dragon champion – why would she see the Elder Dragons as enemies? Why would she go out of her way to fight them? She, unlike Glint, holds no prior knowledge about them or how horrible they could be. Yet she still fights against them. For no reason more than any other race fights them. There’s nothing unique about her here, and it is just mind-boggling for why she’d be fighting her master if she was a dragon champion.

To use the robotic phrase: Does not compute.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

sigh Nevermind, it went completely over your head.

It didn’t go over my head. But apparently what I was saying did. I’m just saying that just because you’re seeing coincidences, doesn’t mean that there aren’t actually coincidences. Coincidences can exist intentionally – they’re called red herrings in writing.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And there are many, many plant creatures out there beyond Mordremoth’s minions – which, I should note, haven’t even been proven to be plants yet! (even if it is most likely)

And I’m not saying that all plant creatures are his minions.

But in your scenario, the seeds would be corrupted and we know two things:

1) Dragon minions cannot create new life, except when twisting inanimate objects into new living beings (e.g., Destroyers, the Shatterer).
2) The Pale Tree nor any sylvari (Dreamer or Nightmare Courtier) are not fanatic to any Elder Dragon, which is one of the two sole commonalities amongst dragon minions. And there’s no indication of Forgotten magic being used on them.

We know that Kralk has been experimenting with corrupting pregnant creatures to see if they can birth corrupted babies. The seeds could have come from a previously corrupted entity.

Sure, our sylvari aren’t fanatical, but how do we know that all others aren’t? How many trees are out there? Yes, you can cite Malyck again, but he can hardly make the case for all others considering he can’t even tell you where his tree is.

IF sylvari are dragon minions – and that’s a bit if – then they were purified by the Forgotten during the previous rise. But there’s a very important question to ask: why is there no documentation of sylvari or sylvari-like beings? If the sylvari were Mordremoth’s minions, there’d be documentations in ancient jotun and dwarven relics of sylvari-like beings.\

It’s not necessarily true that they would have needed to be purified via the forgotten. That is the only way we know of, but that still does not mean that there aren’t others. Beyond that, we really don’t know how Mordy’s corruption works, if it could be fought or not. Scarlett seemed to be fighting it while she was still Ceara, based on the information we have available to us.

You don’t seem to get that that is not actually possible.

Once corrupted, there is no going back. This is emphasized many times. Jora was able to resist Jormag’s corruption because Jormag is unique amongst the Elder Dragons – he prefers to persuade or seduce individuals to willingly join him, and then corrupt. Not willing? He batters you down until you are willing (and then corrupts). But you can win that attempt – just like Zojja and Snaff do against the Dragonspawn in Edge of Destiny. The Sons of Svanir break this code frequently, and he and his champions do use corpses whom lack will, but it’s a frontal point that Jormag seeks to persuade rather than enslave – unlike the other Elder Dragons.

No other dragon does this. And Mordremoth certainly doesn’t show this. But again: once corrupted, there is only one solution: ancient Forgotten magic that’s only been recently discovered.

Mordy does seem to show some tendency for persuasion, or at least mentally battering his victim.

I don’t see how you can simply rule it out as out of hand when we simply don’t know. There is very little information to make a true judgement one way or the other. You can make assumptions based on how the other dragons work, but they all work differently, which throws monkey wrench in the works when it comes to assumptions.

But there are still knowledge of Jormag, Zhaitan, Primordus, risen, icebrood, and destroyers all about. There’s still knowledge of six Elder Dragons existing. There’s still the knowledge from Glint. There’s enough knowledge to argue that if there were dragon minions made of plants that mimicked other races much like destroyers whom are made of rock and lava mimic other races, one would expect knowledge of such to have existed in some form.

Yes, there is knowledge of the other 4 and their minions. Bubbles and Mordy aren’t actually ever mentioned. Neither are their minions. Doesn’t mean the knowledge did not exist at some point and was lost. Although, perhaps because the knowledge doesn’t exist, neither do they. That’s the logic you’re applying here. Since no one remembers, it can’t possibly have happened… because someone would have remembered.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Mordy does seem to show some tendency for persuasion, or at least mentally battering his victim.

I don’t see how you can simply rule it out as out of hand when we simply don’t know. There is very little information to make a true judgement one way or the other. You can make assumptions based on how the other dragons work, but they all work differently, which throws monkey wrench in the works when it comes to assumptions.

We don’t actually have any confirmation that it was mordremoth taking over scarlet, it could have been something entirely else

A Massive Headache.1879:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Mordy does seem to show some tendency for persuasion, or at least mentally battering his victim.

I don’t see how you can simply rule it out as out of hand when we simply don’t know. There is very little information to make a true judgement one way or the other. You can make assumptions based on how the other dragons work, but they all work differently, which throws monkey wrench in the works when it comes to assumptions.

We don’t actually have any confirmation that it was mordremoth taking over scarlet, it could have been something entirely else

I suppose….

She could have just broke her mind with the experiment, just completely went bat kitten crazy, and started hearing voices, and then woke Mordy completely by accident.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I suppose….

She could have just broke her mind with the experiment, just completely went bat kitten crazy, and started hearing voices, and then woke Mordy completely by accident.

Well we do know there are entities in the Mists which are not connected to the Dragons, or the Six . . . and there was one which was decidedly into corrupting people’s minds. Anyone remember Kanaxai?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I suppose….

She could have just broke her mind with the experiment, just completely went bat kitten crazy, and started hearing voices, and then woke Mordy completely by accident.

Well we do know there are entities in the Mists which are not connected to the Dragons, or the Six . . . and there was one which was decidedly into corrupting people’s minds. Anyone remember Kanaxai?

How could anyone forget that annoying pain in the kitten Some of his aspects were so very annoying to kill…

Sure, if you really want to go out there with it… it could have Kanaxai. Or maybe it was Menzies, reaching out from FoW. Or Dhumm trying to touch the world again to break free from his UW prison. Hell, maybe it was the Mad King. Or any other random entity, and it all miraculously culminated in the waking of Mordy.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I suppose….

She could have just broke her mind with the experiment, just completely went bat kitten crazy, and started hearing voices, and then woke Mordy completely by accident.

Well we do know there are entities in the Mists which are not connected to the Dragons, or the Six . . . and there was one which was decidedly into corrupting people’s minds. Anyone remember Kanaxai?

How could anyone forget that annoying pain in the kitten Some of his aspects were so very annoying to kill…

Sure, if you really want to go out there with it… it could have Kanaxai. Or maybe it was Menzies, reaching out from FoW. Or Dhumm trying to touch the world again to break free from his UW prison. Hell, maybe it was the Mad King. Or any other random entity, and it all miraculously culminated in the waking of Mordy.

It was actually the second thing which came to mind for me, Kanaxai, due to me spending time trying to figure out just what was going on in The Deep. And I don’t know if we really did get much about him/her/it aside from it being related/master of the oni which were around Cantha and having some sway over others through mental manipulations.

If something like Kanaxai can exist, there is undoubtedly a potential other such beings can dwell in the Mists. (Which was my first thought: “Are they going to go for Great Old Ones?”)

Mordremoth, at that point, was literally to me just one name on one skill and not something which was potentially existing in the world as a Dragon. (I posted to that effect a lot before there was a reveal.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I suppose….

She could have just broke her mind with the experiment, just completely went bat kitten crazy, and started hearing voices, and then woke Mordy completely by accident.

Well we do know there are entities in the Mists which are not connected to the Dragons, or the Six . . . and there was one which was decidedly into corrupting people’s minds. Anyone remember Kanaxai?

How could anyone forget that annoying pain in the kitten Some of his aspects were so very annoying to kill…

Sure, if you really want to go out there with it… it could have Kanaxai. Or maybe it was Menzies, reaching out from FoW. Or Dhumm trying to touch the world again to break free from his UW prison. Hell, maybe it was the Mad King. Or any other random entity, and it all miraculously culminated in the waking of Mordy.

It was actually the second thing which came to mind for me, Kanaxai, due to me spending time trying to figure out just what was going on in The Deep. And I don’t know if we really did get much about him/her/it aside from it being related/master of the oni which were around Cantha and having some sway over others through mental manipulations.

If something like Kanaxai can exist, there is undoubtedly a potential other such beings can dwell in the Mists. (Which was my first thought: “Are they going to go for Great Old Ones?”)

Mordremoth, at that point, was literally to me just one name on one skill and not something which was potentially existing in the world as a Dragon. (I posted to that effect a lot before there was a reveal.)

I don’t think we had oni in prophecies did we? They were a Canthan foe? Probably why he didn’t come to mind. I don’t think he’s actually tied to the Mists though. He and his horde simple dwell in their lair below the Jade Sea, well with the exception of the Outcasts, which he drove mad.

Maybe he’s talking to Faolain too. She leads the ‘Nightmare Court’ and Kanaxai’s minions were called the ‘Nightmare Horde.’

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Maybe he’s talking to Faolain too. She leads the ‘Nightmare Court’ and Kanaxai’s minions were called the ‘Nightmare Horde.’

If they presented that idea, then we’d have to beat back the “Cantha Confirmed” crowd again

Well since i’m lazy (and tired at the moment) i didn’t bother to read some of page 1 and all of 2.
But i would like to point out that in the silvari storyline Malyck mentions that he is unformiliar with the experience our Silvari know as the dream.
And since our veggies (as i like to call them lovingly) become aware of the dream before the pod falls one could conclude that the other trees don’t have such a thing.
Just a bit that was on my mind after reading a bit.
do with it what you like.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You don’t seem to get that that is not actually possible.

Once corrupted, there is no going back. This is emphasized many times. Jora was able to resist Jormag’s corruption because Jormag is unique amongst the Elder Dragons – he prefers to persuade or seduce individuals to willingly join him, and then corrupt. Not willing? He batters you down until you are willing (and then corrupts). But you can win that attempt – just like Zojja and Snaff do against the Dragonspawn in Edge of Destiny. The Sons of Svanir break this code frequently, and he and his champions do use corpses whom lack will, but it’s a frontal point that Jormag seeks to persuade rather than enslave – unlike the other Elder Dragons.

No other dragon does this. And Mordremoth certainly doesn’t show this. But again: once corrupted, there is only one solution: ancient Forgotten magic that’s only been recently discovered.

This isn’t exactly cut and dry either. There are a choice few Sons of Svanir who were indeed Sons of Svanir, who have returned from this corruption of the heart and mind.

At a certain point (icebrood status), I do suspect it is impossible (short of Forgotten magic, at least mental wise ala Glint).

But there are Sons of Svanir who have come back from what most think is an impossible returning point.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rojan_the_Penitent

CETheLucid.3964:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You don’t seem to get that that is not actually possible.

Once corrupted, there is no going back. This is emphasized many times. Jora was able to resist Jormag’s corruption because Jormag is unique amongst the Elder Dragons – he prefers to persuade or seduce individuals to willingly join him, and then corrupt. Not willing? He batters you down until you are willing (and then corrupts). But you can win that attempt – just like Zojja and Snaff do against the Dragonspawn in Edge of Destiny. The Sons of Svanir break this code frequently, and he and his champions do use corpses whom lack will, but it’s a frontal point that Jormag seeks to persuade rather than enslave – unlike the other Elder Dragons.

No other dragon does this. And Mordremoth certainly doesn’t show this. But again: once corrupted, there is only one solution: ancient Forgotten magic that’s only been recently discovered.

This isn’t exactly cut and dry either. There are a choice few Sons of Svanir who were indeed Sons of Svanir, who have returned from this corruption of the heart and mind.

At a certain point (icebrood status), I do suspect it is impossible (short of Forgotten magic, at least mental wise ala Glint).

But there are Sons of Svanir who have come back from what most think is an impossible returning point.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rojan_the_Penitent

Sons of svanir aren’t corrupted at that point, they are just followers of jormag, and crazy zealots.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I suppose….

She could have just broke her mind with the experiment, just completely went bat kitten crazy, and started hearing voices, and then woke Mordy completely by accident.

Well we do know there are entities in the Mists which are not connected to the Dragons, or the Six . . . and there was one which was decidedly into corrupting people’s minds. Anyone remember Kanaxai?

More to the point, Scarlet came out of the machine saying that the forces in the world could be turned against one another to the detriment of both. If all she wanted to do was wake up her master Mordremoth, where is this aspect of turning forces against one another?

Scarlet as a minion of Mordremoth is an obvious conclusion to make when her immediate objective was to awaken Mordremoth, but I think the voice has an objective that goes beyond waking Mordremoth. Instead, this idea of setting forces against one another suggests Mordremoth was woken as part of someone’s plans to let Mordremoth and another force – likely, the Pact – fight and weaken each other so the source of the voice can swoop in at an opportune moment.

One could agrue that it was some sort of remainent of Abbadon and that scarlet was meant to awaken the last dragon so that they could be tricked into fighting each other and destroy the world, thus granting Abbadon vengeance on the race that caused his downfall

But all in all what do we know about the dragons?

1. By my account (and correct me if i’m wrong) they wake from hibernation to eat their fill and go back in to hibernation.
2. Each dragon has it’s own element thats seems to corrospond with the gods in some way or another up to now (except maybe Dwayna).
3. Until their masters awaken the minions seems to be somewhat dormant and become active when the time of their masters awakening comes near.
4. We know that there are 6 dragons, as far as we know, but most of the information comes from races that fought against single dragons (dwars v.s. the destroyer).

Keeping those in mind one might say that there is a possibility that the Sylavri could have been intended as minions in the start.

The seeds of the pale tree was found in a cave and protected by monsters.
Those monsters could have been the “gardeners” in-charge of planting the seeds so that Mord has an army of slaves at his disposal when he awakens.

Since he seems to be the dragon tied to Melandru, Goddess of nature … and GROWTH
it is not unlikely that he has the capability to grow his own minions.

And it is true that the seeds had been planted roughly 250 yeas ago, but didn’t vetari pick that spot because of special reasons, wich in turn could have given the Pale Tree it’s protection to the dragons will (some spot used for a dragon cleansing ritual or something).

But the only real way to find it out is to wait and see

Konig Des Todes.2086:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

She could very well have been created / born with the corruption within her, but actively fights it. Using the dream as a means of protecting her offspring from it. It wouldn’t be the first storyline to go that route. Scarlet’s back story sort of implies that something along those lines may be happening. Thus, the dragon may be trying to ‘re-corrupt’ or at least subdue her.

Corruption isn’t really something that can be fought. Once corrupted, the individual’s mind is fully fanatic to serving the dragon whom it was corrupted by.

Thus far, the only counter to dragon corruption that exists is the Forgotten’s magic.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think our sylvari a bit different than how they should/ would have been, even the Nightmare Court is affected simply due to the Tree’s shielding.

One dragon’s minions are also not corruptible by the other dragons, and Sylvari are seemingly the only race immune to becoming risen, or branded. An interesting coincidence.

Crucible of Eternity shows that dragon minions are corruptible. And nothing indicates that CoE’s cases is impossible in other situations.

Again, Forgotten had magic immune to corruption (and even capable of reverting the mental side of it).

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Malyck seems to have been prematurely separated from his Pale Tree. At least that’s what I get from his back story anyway. It’s possible his ‘programming’ was not complete. We really don’t know enough about him, beyond that he comes from a different tree. It’s potentially possible that the tree he comes from was destroyed, which if that turns out to be the case, one would wonder why.

There really is no reason to believe that, and corruption would be instantaneous anyways, as it is with all other Elder Dragons.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Why would Mordy grow his own army? Because he’s a plant creature maybe and that would seemingly fit his nature? Of course, in the previous rises he may not have encountered any issues with his grown army being corrupted against him in any fashion, there weren’t humans at that point.

This really isn’t any different than what the Great Destroyer did in EotN. Primordus wasn’t awake then, wasn’t truly in control. The Great Destroyer was in control of the army, building it for his master. Spreading their control.

Similarly here, the Pale Tree is the one in control of the army. If all Sylvari were like the Nightmare Court, and the Pale Tree evil, you don’t think their actions would be similar?

Personally, I think there are too many “coincidental” similarities. As Gibb’s would say – “There’s no such thing as coincidence.”

Why would Mordremoth grow an army that don’t listen to him and are wanting to kill him and his ilk?

The Great Destroyer existed from the previous Dragonrise. Elder Dragons don’t corrupt when they’re hibernating, their champions left behind (Great Destroyer, Drakkar, etc.) do it for them. They are not born while the Elder Dragons hibernate, and the dragon champions are always just as fanatic for their master whether their master is awake, sleeping, or even dead (as shown with Arah explorable). I think there’s a very fine difference between the Great Destroyer – or any other dragon minion, even Glint – and the Pale Tree (even if we were to assume for argument’s sake that the Pale Tree is a champion).

The Nightmare Court is still anti-Elder Dragon though. They just have a different belief for how to go about it.

Coincidences don’t exist in NCIS because the NCIS writers ensure there are no coincidences. If a writer wishes for a coincidence to exist, it will exist.

Konig,

Once again you misrepresent the affects of corruption when you say that corruption cannot be fought and the the corrupted individual’s mind is fully fanatic to the corrupting dragon.

You know this isn’t true, yet you keep repeating it.

Sincerely,

Kellach

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

If the Pale Tree had not been influenced by Ventari, perhaps they wouldn’t be fighting him. If they had all turned out like the Nightmare Court with the tree functioning closer to whatever her darker version was ‘supposed to be’ (since the Nightmare Court believe she’s supposed to be something darker), they could easily have ended up obeying him.

Without Ventari’s tablet to rebel against, Caderyn wouldn’t have created the nightmare court. Trahearne and Caithe would probably have have sided with him, and the Sylvari would be at war with the Asura.

There would be no Pact, Zhaitan would still be alive. Orr would still be brimming with undead. Quite possibly the bloodtide coast would have been overwhelmed. Lions arch would be on the brink.

Scarlet would never have had any Asura training, and would likely have sided with Caderyn against the Asura. Mordremoth would still be slumbering, but when he did awake, there would be no Pact to stop it, and both the Asura and Sylvari would have been weakened by war.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

And I’m not saying that all plant creatures are his minions.

Your argument – or rather, that part of it – was “sylvari are plants, Mordremoth’s minions are plants, therefore sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions.” Which doesn’t really fit. It’d be like saying Embers are Primordus’ minions because they’re made of fire.

Such an argument holds no water.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

We know that Kralk has been experimenting with corrupting pregnant creatures to see
if they can birth corrupted babies. The seeds could have come from a previously corrupted entity.

Sure, our sylvari aren’t fanatical, but how do we know that all others aren’t? How many trees are out there? Yes, you can cite Malyck again, but he can hardly make the case for all others considering he can’t even tell you where his tree is.

Erm, no Elder Dragon hasb en “experimenting” – we see risen whom were pregnant when corrupted and their children were corrupted, but we don’t se such (outright at least) for branded or others. But this isn’t a case of “experimentation”.

But if the seeds were corrupted, then why are they no longer so? Even if – and that’s a big if given that we know nothing about non-Pale Tree sylvari beyond Malyck, which should be enough evidence for his tree at the least since your argument works on the foundation that all non-Pale Tree sylvari trees are corrupted, which means he would be born corrupted too – even if non-Pale were corrupted minions, why isn’t the Pale Tree and her sylvari?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

It’s not necessarily true that they would have needed to be purified via the forgotten. That is the only way we know of, but that still does not mean that there aren’t others. Beyond that, we really don’t know how Mordy’s corruption works, if it could be fought or not. Scarlett seemed to be fighting it while she was still Ceara, based on the information we have available to us.

Nonetheless, they’d need to be purified somehow.

Corruption in general cannot be fought. Jeff Grubb stated a couple times that Elder Dragons and their minions are “similar but different” – in that they all share the same similarities, but where there’s a difference between two, the difference is between them all. Amongst the similarity is that once corrupted, there is no return (sans the Forgotten ritual, to all knowledge) and that it cannot be fought, and it enslaves the will of the individual.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Mordy does seem to show some tendency for persuasion, or at least mentally battering his victim.

I don’t see how you can simply rule it out as out of hand when we simply don’t know. There is very little information to make a true judgement one way or the other. You can make assumptions based on how the other dragons work, but they all work differently, which throws monkey wrench in the works when it comes to assumptions.

Because of point above. Jeff Grubb said each Elder Dragon is similar but different. If Jormag is unique to four Elder Dragons (arguably five, since the Order of Whispers know of either Mordremoth or the DSD – which is unclear, but it is clear they knew of five as of the end of the Personal Story) then why wouldn’t he be to the other two (or last one)? Mordremoth’s potential show of mental persuasion is no more different than Kralkatorrik fighting back mental invasions into his mind by Jennah and Snaff by all indication.

And that outright relies on the entity being Mordremoth. Your entire point of Mordremoth’s mental persuasion (hardly persuasion IMO) falls apart if the entity wasn’t Mordremoth.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yes, there is knowledge of the other 4 and their minions. Bubbles and Mordy aren’t actually ever mentioned. Neither are their minions. Doesn’t mean the knowledge did not exist at some point and was lost. Although, perhaps because the knowledge doesn’t exist, neither do they. That’s the logic you’re applying here. Since no one remembers, it can’t possibly have happened… because someone would have remembered.

There is knowledge of six Elder Dragons that the Priory and Inquest know, and the Master of Whispers – and Trahearne – makes outright mention of four more targets for them. The Pact is also allied with the quaggan whom were pushed out of the Unending Ocean, and Trahearne to Sayeh who’d know of the DSD.

While the DSD is never mentioned to players outside its approximate awakening time, and the fact it pushed the quaggan and krait out of their homes, (and arguably, karka and largos), it is mentioned indeed to the NPCs.

The NPCs know of six Elder Dragons and their corruptive ways. The Order of Whispers had spies in the Inquest whom we know had likely obtained samples of Mordremoth’s corruption; and Zojja took their research as well. Why it was said to be four more to go is unknown – they likely view either Mordremoth or the DSD as a non-threat (at the time), but they know of all six and their corruption.

Yet no mention by NPCs at the possibility. No records of sylvari-like creatures. Don’t you find this strange? Almost as if… there is no connection.

Oh, and may logic wasn’t “since no one remembers it didn’t happen” but rather “it’s beyond questionable that ‘no one knows’ given all the hints we have at it being known!”

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sure, if you really want to go out there with it… it could have Kanaxai. Or maybe it was Menzies, reaching out from FoW. Or Dhumm trying to touch the world again to break free from his UW prison. Hell, maybe it was the Mad King. Or any other random entity, and it all miraculously culminated in the waking of Mordy.

Dhuum has actually done this sort of thing before.

And both the Inquest and mursaat have (attempted in the Inquest’s case) tried to leave the world to the Elder Dragons’ slaughter while they escape to the Mists in order to return when the Elder Dragons go to sleep.

Lazarus and Dhuum are, IMO, just as likely as Mordremoth – since both of them are tied to darkness, and Lazarus to forests (the White Mantle being based to the west), and Belinda’s hint does point to the Sinister Triad or at least bandits (whom are part of said Sinister Tried, and White Mantle, ergo to Lazarus).

Lazarus and Inquest also makes sense with drax’s point of putting forces against each other. As it would be a plan of putting the nations against the Elder Dragons and hoping they wipe each other out.

CETheLucid.3964:

This isn’t exactly cut and dry either. There are a choice few Sons of Svanir who were indeed Sons of Svanir, who have returned from this corruption of the heart and mind.

At a certain point (icebrood status), I do suspect it is impossible (short of Forgotten magic, at least mental wise ala Glint).

But there are Sons of Svanir who have come back from what most think is an impossible returning point.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rojan_the_Penitent

Most Sons of Svanir aren’t corrupted, and those that are, are typically the shamans.

Given Rojan’s dialogue when the Claw shows up, he is likely in a constant battle of the mental persuasion that borderlines him to being corrupted. As it feels similar to Jora and Zojja’s lines.

El loco Lobo.4863:

1. By my account (and correct me if i’m wrong) they wake from hibernation to eat their fill and go back in to hibernation.
2. Each dragon has it’s own element thats seems to corrospond with the gods in some way or another up to now (except maybe Dwayna).
3. Until their masters awaken the minions seems to be somewhat dormant and become active when the time of their masters awakening comes near.
4. We know that there are 6 dragons, as far as we know, but most of the information comes from races that fought against single dragons (dwars v.s. the destroyer).

Given what we see from dragon minions, while 1 is correct in what we’ve seen them do, it isn’t what they want. They want to rule the world, but with six Elder Dragons out there, they run out of food too fast.

2 is far from true, really. While the gods do hold an element in their aspects, this is something that has been passed around amongst them – Dhuum didn’t have ice, but Grenth does; Abaddon had water, but Kormir doesn’t and now Lyssa does (she originally didn’t). It’s really Kormir and Dwayna that are without an equivilant Elder Dragon, and Grenth has two (unless you count Zhaitan to Dwayna); and likewise, Kralkatorrik has no equivilant god. A better way to look at the aspects of the gods is what is passed down – or what the norn refer to them by. War, Knowledge, Death, Life (Melandru and Lyssa are unknown what they’d be exactly – likely nature and beauty given the “Spirits of Action” nickname the norn give them).

3. They seem to remain around after, going off of various loose dialogues, with exception of some champions that act as “heralds” for them – and it seems to be one champion each. The other minions either go into hibernation as well and aren’t heard from, or remain active the entire time (until death). The herald for Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and the DSD are unknown, but chances are for Zhaitan it’d be The Maw (seen in Sea of Sorrows) or the Risen Giganticus Lupicus (from Arah explorable) – but again, isn’t clear.

4. Actually the mention of six Elder Dragons come solely from the jotun, whom have records of five races fighting against six Elder Dragons, and creation myths of a “sextant of swallowers” that destroyed the world several times over. Dwarven legends contains information of Primordus, Jormag, and Zhaitan (they even have relics of Jormag). But the other three have no known records aside from Glint (and possibly via Glint, the Forgotten) which is only for Kralkatorrik. Mordremoth and the DSD have no known records other than the jotun numbering 6 Elder Dragons. There are minor hints of Kuunavang being a dragon champion (been said to be akin to Glint on multiple occasions even after Glint was revealed to be a dragon champion), and she doesn’t fit any of the six known ED portfolios though (Rotscale is also hinted at having been akin to Kuunavang and Glint).

El loco Lobo.4863:

The seeds of the pale tree was found in a cave and protected by monsters.
Those monsters could have been the “gardeners” in-charge of planting the seeds so that Mord has an army of slaves at his disposal when he awakens.

Since he seems to be the dragon tied to Melandru, Goddess of nature … and GROWTH
it is not unlikely that he has the capability to grow his own minions.

And it is true that the seeds had been planted roughly 250 yeas ago, but didn’t vetari pick that spot because of special reasons, wich in turn could have given the Pale Tree it’s protection to the dragons will (some spot used for a dragon cleansing ritual or something).

The Melandru bit is irrelevant, but your statement is the typical argument. And it fails to answer some key questions:

• Why aren’t the sylvari born corrupted?
• Why are the sylvari immune to dragon corruption (dragon minions are not)?
• Why are they driven – even the Nightmare Court – to slay all the dragons?
• WHy do the sylvari lack a hive mind, one of the shared characteristics of dragon minions? Why are they not fantic to a dragon, another shared characteristic of dragon minions?
• Why is Malyck, whom is not tied to the Dream nor the call to kill Elder Dragons (which comes from the Dream) nor to the Pale Tree, lacking a hive mind or fanaticism?

Ventari didn’t pick the spot, btw. Ronan, the one who found the seed, did, and the tree was planted over the graves of his family and village.

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig,

Once again you misrepresent the affects of corruption when you say that corruption cannot be fought and the the corrupted individual’s mind is fully fanatic to the corrupting dragon.

You know this isn’t true, yet you keep repeating it.

Sincerely,

Kellach

Kellach was a unique case who’s situation isn’t fully known. Zhaitan is normally seen only corrupting corpses, and Kellach was being corrupted by an artifact – if he was being corrupted at all. It should be noted that throughout Sparkfly Fen, we see risen corruption spread in many of the hearts, and what happens to those who go near it – or digest it – is that they get sick, which is curable. Which is odd and unique unto Zhaitan’s corruption (but falls into the slowly killing before corrupting relics that Necromancer Rissa used, and would match Kellach pretty well).

But I suspect Kellach was being corrupted and it isn’t just a case of “eating Risen doesn’t corrupt outright, but sickens you first until death then corrupts.” I suspect he was turned into a dragon champion – and as we see, dragon champions, though still serving and enslaved to the dragon, have their own degree of choice in their actions. He also seemed to be slowly being corrupted, only having real control over his actions halfway through that plot – otherwise, would he really go to kill Jennah? It makes more sense that him willingly going after Jennah’s life was part of the corruption – Zhaitan on many occasions targets threats and potential threats, and Jennah is one such potential threat.

It could also be possible that such a degree of indirect corruption didn’t fully patch Kellach into the Risen’s hivemind. He was able to keep enough of his own mind to try and search for a cure, but his mind was effected enough by the corruption that he lost any sort of empathy towards the mortal races, because he didn’t seem to mind his Risen horde tagalongs killing the people he once protected.

I think he was part of the hive mind. He had a small army of risen following him and following his commands, whether he realized it or not. That is a Dragon champion’a abilities. And dragon minions seem to fight anything not tied to their hive mind – unless ordered otherwise by a champion (exception bring the mid-tiered minions I call lieutenants, whom seems to have control over a group small than a handful, unlike champions and Kellach who can have dozens, like Kellach, or hundreds like the Dragonspawn).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

2 is far from true, really. While the gods do hold an element in their aspects, this is something that has been passed around amongst them – Dhuum didn’t have ice, but Grenth does; Abaddon had water, but Kormir doesn’t and now Lyssa does (she originally didn’t). It’s really Kormir and Dwayna that are without an equivilant Elder Dragon, and Grenth has two (unless you count Zhaitan to Dwayna); and likewise, Kralkatorrik has no equivilant god. A better way to look at the aspects of the gods is what is passed down – or what the norn refer to them by. War, Knowledge, Death, Life (Melandru and Lyssa are unknown what they’d be exactly – likely nature and beauty given the “Spirits of Action” nickname the norn give them).

Arguably, you could say Kralk is connected to Lyssa as well, given the purple chaotic lightning and generally mesmer-like behaviour of many of the Branded. However, this still leaves two gods with two dragons each, and two gods without. One could potentially finagle it by claiming that the DSD is actually connected to knowledge and being an ocean dragon is connected to that in the same way Abaddon was, shift Kralkatorrik over to be the equivalent of Dwayna (focusing on the air and lightning side of Dwayna’s portfolio) and link Lyssa to Jormag through a common thread of mental manipulation…

…But I think that’s clutching at straws.

Regarding Lyssa’s Norn name – personally, I think it’s most likely to be Inspiration. Beauty may cover a lot of her portfolio, but there’s a lot that Lyssa does that isn’t related to beauty, and furthermore Lyss and Ilya are said to be the twin goddesses of Beauty and Illusion – implying that beauty and illusion are two parts of the whole that is Lyssa.

Inspiration, however, brings it all together – beauty is inspiring, hence beauty; making good illusions, like good art, requires inspiration, and inspiration can be chaotic and unpredictable, which is why she’s associated with chaos.

I just came here to remind everyone, whether they’ve fallen into that mistake or not, that the lack of proof should never be used as evidence to support an argument.

We can’t base our speculation on the things that we ignore. Every and all theory that aspires to deserve any degree of credibility needs to possess a solid foundation, lest it crumbles under its own weight.

tl;dr burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.

One of the things that I haven’t seen yet is that the Nightmare Court (and to a lesser extent, the Sylvari), tends to actively terraform the areas that they happen to be stationed, converting and weaponizing both the Sylvari, and the local flora and fauna, This isn’t limited to Sylvari lands either, they appear south of Divinity’s reach, apparently without reason or cause. Unless they are simply causing havoc (possible) I’d have to assume that the Nightmare Court, at least, are designed in such a way as to deprive carnivorous creatures of their food source (Nightmare Court fauna seems to be inherently poisonous).

Whatever they are, they’re certainty not natural, (unless the world takes a more active role in creating creatures, possible) but could have been created by practically anyone at this point. Personally, I’m favoring the theory that they’re a immune system created by the world itself. It sounds cool.

*Although I could be reading too much into it. It’s equally likely that Nightmare Court terrain is so radically different for thematic purposes.

The Sylvari tend to transform the plants in areas they are in too. Look at the Sylvari outposts in the blood tide coast, or timberline falls for example, they are all surrounded by massive thorns.

That the nightmare court transformations look more evil is really just a matter of color.

The Nightmare Court’s appearance south of Divinity’s Reach is explained, actually, and their “terraforming” is non-standard amongst the Nightmare Court – those are the Toxic Alliance’s doings. This was part of Scarlet Briar’s doings and is a mixture of Nightmare Court and krait magic (with Scarlet’s own alterations).

Sylvari have a heavy use of plant magic and growing plants, which they use (the plant-growing magic) to make houses, towers, and even weapons and clothing. Standard Nightmare Court plant magic is just a darker, less flowery, and more thorny, version of the Dreamers’ plant magic. They are not transforming, but growing.

makes perfect sense, I’d (mistakenly) assumed that the plant growing magic was generational and would propagate.
…I really want season 2 to start, the cliffhangers are killing me!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They are not transforming, but growing.

To be precise, they are shaping, and the shapers are those who take care for these plants’ growth and formation. And they have certain means to move and dig volumes of earth and rocks, maybe plant workers if one doesn’t want to tape into elemental magic (terraforming).

One of the Firstborn is known as the Shaper of the Grove, by the way.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

That’s…not what I was referring to. Rather, Scarlet Briar’s Journal indicates pretty clearly that nightmare is a vector for said “entity”, whatever it may be.

On an unrelated note (in response to what you were talking about above), the boundary broken can’t have been removing Scarlet from the Dream because the Pale Tree spoke to her whilst she was in Omadd’s Isolation Module, if you read the short story. It was in there that, as we are told in-game, when Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.

…..I blame ArenaNet for their overuse of generic terms for specific things… dredge, warden, nightmare, dream, etc. etc. The journal talks about general nightmares (as in, when sleeping), not the Nightmare that is related to the Dream of Dreams. I’m… not quite sure which you think it refers to, since you said “the nightmare” multiple times, which indicates you mean the Dream of Dreams thing, not the “bad dream experience” bit.

To the second bit – but we don’t see all of her vision in the short story. She moves on past the Pale Tree. I think this is the breaking from the Dream that occurs (since it was stated by a dev that the experience did separate her from the Dream, or rather, that Scarlet is akin to Soundless but unintentionally so).

Wanderer.3248:

Tamias.7059:

That’s…not what I was referring to. Rather, Scarlet Briar’s Journal indicates pretty clearly that nightmare is a vector for said “entity”, whatever it may be.

You seem to be confusing nightmares with The Nightmare.

Bit of a bump, but sylvari don’t dream as humans do. Was just in the Town of Cathal, overheard a conversation to the effect of “Are there any other races that dream?”, to which the response was “I hear humans dream every night”, and then “How strange. I wonder what they dream about.” Can provide screenshot proof if necessary.

This shows that when a sylvari talks about dreams or nightmares, they are discussing the Dream or the Nightmare (this is something that I would have though obvious, but hey), and in turn that the entity in Scarlet Briar’s journal is communicating through Nightmare rather than just generic nightmares. This, to get back to the original point, suggests a comparison with Mordremoth.

I honestly gave no idea how you people connect two dots and come up with the blueprint for Leonardo’s fabled lost invention, I really don’t.

There are a lot of interpretations to that exchange. To start off with – you’re human (presumably). I’m human. Do you dream every night? Well, technically, probably yes (assuming you don’t sleep during daylight hours) but few people remember dreaming every night. I know I don’t.

Remember that in many ways the sylvari are still young and inexperienced – the sylvari saying ‘how strange’ might be thinking back to their own memory of only dreaming occasionally rather than every night, while humans might have the scholarly knowledge to know they’re dreaming every night (as we do now) even if they don’t remember it. It may be the exact same thing seen from different perspectives.

It’s also possible that the entity is linked to the Dream or Nightmare through some other means (as the White Stag is) or that it was something messing with Scarlet’s mind in a way that she associates with the Dream because that’s what her prior experiences with visions inside her mind have mostly been, even if it’s something totally unconnected to the Dream. We’ve been told, for instance, that while mesmers don’t advertise it, they can create illusions that only exist in the target’s mind. If an entity with mesmer-like powers was doing this to you on a regular basis and you weren’t knowledgeable about the mechanics, wouldn’t you be likely to think this was dreaming – or whatever equivalent you might have if you were a member of a species that didn’t dream the way humans do but did have something analogous?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Corax.7381:

However, other Pale Trees – and thus, other sylvari – without the moral anchor of Ventari’s teachings may be more susceptible, and if Mordremoth really needs minions, and has an understanding of their Dreams (unknown whether he does or not since we don’t know if he broke Scarlet’s mind), then it’s not far-fetched to see him corrupting them.

Ventari’s teachings would do nothing to prevent dragon corruption. Dragon corruption forcefully alters the personality of the corrupted, and no high moral standing woudl change that. See all those Orrians? They were fanatic towards the (to them) Five Gods (to others now, Six Gods), and now? They’re all “praise Zhaitan, hail Zhaitan, Zhaitan eats gods, the gods lie!” etc. etc.

Corax.7381:

Probably; there’s still some cool “evil plant” concept art out there, and it’s more than just the “evil clothes” worn by the Nightmare Court. I’m talking full-on, mossman, lurker in the swamp kind of evil plants.

Those are concept arts by Kekai Kotaki from long before release. They were the first iteration of Nightmare Court concept arts and were scrapped.

From Scarlet arc we know Sylvari don’t have access to part of their brain and this has something to do with the Pale Tree influence. We know once the Pale Tree influence is removed they are slowly driven crazy and kill everything around them. Sill speculation though however a decent Theory can be formed. It raises the question though what is the true nature of the Sylvari. I don’t think anyone is stating it as a fact either way because they are a 25year old race that was literally kidnapped and raised seperatly from its own race. The playable Sylvari are almost will not to act as Sylvari in the wild. I’d like to make a Wolfs and Dogs comparison.

People, the Sylvari are not minions because they are playable characters /endthread.