Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

There are a lot of interpretations to that exchange. To start off with – you’re human (presumably). I’m human. Do you dream every night? Well, technically, probably yes (assuming you don’t sleep during daylight hours) but few people remember dreaming every night. I know I don’t.

Remember that in many ways the sylvari are still young and inexperienced – the sylvari saying ‘how strange’ might be thinking back to their own memory of only dreaming occasionally rather than every night, while humans might have the scholarly knowledge to know they’re dreaming every night (as we do now) even if they don’t remember it. It may be the exact same thing seen from different perspectives.

Careful, you’ll injure yourself if you stretch like that :P I’m not talking about what’s possible here, I’m talking about what’s probable. We have two sylvari discussing dreams here, in the context of comparing sylvari dreams to human dreams, with the conclusion that human dreams are comparatively strange. Given that the thing that distinguishes the sylvari from the other races is the Dream of Dreams, it’s made overwhelmingly likely by the context that what they’re discussing is in fact the sylvari Dream, rather than a generic sylvari dreaming as a human does (which the dialogue indicates is a strange concept to them, at the risk of repeating myself).

I think, actually, that in any other situation you’d agree with me. But the suggestion that the entity is able to influence Scarlet, a sylvari, through the Dream could be evidence that the entity is Mordremoth. And if Mordremoth, an Elder Dragon, could influence a sylvari, then, well…all I’m saying is to remain open-minded. Because anything that suggests that Scarlet could have been influenced by Mordremoth is dismissed out of hand by some people, no matter how strong the evidence or reasoning behind it. And because this unrelated dialogue that has been in the game since launch allows for that possibility, some convoluted interpretation must be found.

Kurrilino.2706:

They sprout out of the Tree of Life also known as Pale Tree.

There is however speculation that other Pale Trees exist as one Sylvari you meet is not apart of the same tree you, the player, came from.

A Massive Headache.1879:

WereDragon.6083:

I reached the exact same speculation. The thing that pointed me to it was during the past LS where it mentioned the shadow and or corruption was already in scarlets mind and using the Asura’s machine unlocked it.

This lead me to believe that the Sylvari themselves are liberated dragon minions much like glint.

And that the pale tree has a block to keep Mordremeth’s influence out. I believe the Nightmare Court have this block removed and have given into Mord’s influence.

Except there are more sylvari that aren’t from the grove that aren’t evil. I really really hate the sylvari as minions theory, it just holds no water and I’m sick of it.

I wouldn’t necessarily say it holds no water. The Pale Tree itself could have very well been a Champion of Mord but also, like Glint, veered from it’s pre-destined path.

As much as I dislike the Sylvari as a whole for being a terribly snowflakey-ish species, the speculation carries with it a lot of weight. Only because we’re still learning about the Elder Dragons and how the Lay Lines fall into everything.

Ronin.7381:

I wouldn’t necessarily say it holds no water. The Pale Tree itself could have very well been a Champion of Mord but also, like Glint, veered from it’s pre-destined path.

Not really, no.

The Pale Tree was found as a seed in a cave. She might have had some vague memories and thoughts while she was still a seed, but she didn’t seem to gain full enough consciousness to look out into the world until she sprouted out of the ground. That alone eliminates the “Champion of Mordremoth” theory.

As for being like Glint and “veering from its pre-destined path”, Glint didn’t veer off the path by her own choosing. She was forcefully pushed off it by the Forgotten. They captured her while she was still a Champion of Kralk, dragged her back to Arah, and they performed a spell that broke the mental connection between her and her master. She didn’t become a good guy instantly afterwards. That happened over time, when she started to empathize with the lesser races by way of her telepathy.

Erukk.1408:

Ronin.7381:

I wouldn’t necessarily say it holds no water. The Pale Tree itself could have very well been a Champion of Mord but also, like Glint, veered from it’s pre-destined path.

Not really, no.

The Pale Tree was found as a seed in a cave. She might have had some vague memories and thoughts while she was still a seed, but she didn’t seem to gain full enough consciousness to look out into the world until she sprouted out of the ground. That alone eliminates the “Champion of Mordremoth” theory.

And the seed didn’t come about/hatch until the Elder Dragons started coming around.

As for being like Glint and “veering from its pre-destined path”, Glint didn’t veer off the path by her own choosing. She was forcefully pushed off it by the Forgotten.

That’s irrelevant. A veer off path be it intentional or forced, is still straying from which the original goal was intended. This doesn’t “eliminate” the similarity.

@Tamias: I don’t think I’m stretching at all. The exclamation of strangeness follows the assertion that humans dream every night. Is it strange because it’s happening every night? Well, most humans don’t remember their dreams every night, so sylvari could have a similar dreaming pattern to humans and still consider it strange. Is it strange that they’re dreaming without the Dream? To the sylvari, this might seem so, but there’s still a lot about the sylvari that remain a mystery to them.

For instance, one thing a lot of fantasy universes have is a dream world that is another plane of existence somewhat parallel to ours. In many of these settings, though, not all dreams are connected to this dream world – those that are tend to be particularly vivid, memorable, and possibly fatal, but ordinary dreams that are entirely in the mind of the dreamer are entirely possible as well. Now, in the world of Guild Wars, most non-sylvari rarely if ever touch the Dream during their normal sleep, while sylvari do – but can we conclude that the Dream totally replaces normal dreaming? I don’t think we necessarily can – the sylvari might also dream in the conventional sense, but forget such dreams most nights as humans normally do, and when they do remember one, they may well confuse it with a Dream experience as well.

You’ve asked me to keep an open mind… well, I ask everyone to keep open minds as to the alternative explanations:

• Sylvari might well dream normally as well as having the Dream. Even if they don’t, they might interpret a sleeping experience sent by outside influence as a dream because that’s what they’d expect it to be. Either way, Scarlet’s ‘dreams’ and ‘nightmares’ may have had nothing to do with the Dream (in fact, I believe it was stated by ArenaNet that Scarlet had been seperated from the Dream entirely, so if I’m remembering that correctly, they couldn’t have).

• The entity does not need to have been Mordremoth or allied to Mordremoth, just something that sees some advantage to waking Mordremoth (keep in mind that in the original origin story for Scarlet, she spoke of turning forces ‘against one another to the detriment of both’ – waking Mordremoth because she serves Mordremoth would be choosing to align with one of those forces, not turning them against one another.)

• Discussions from the asura about Omadd’s machine suggests that it breaks down a barrier that exists in everyone’s minds, not specifically sylvari. So even if the possessing entity was Mordremoth or a champion of Mordremoth, Scarlet’s sylvari-ness may have been irrelevant to the possession – a human, asura, or any other race may have been equally vulnerable if they had been subjected to the same experiment, and the entity just opportunistically grabbed the first available target.

Your line of thinking has a lot of branching points, each of which has to go exactly the right way to come to the conclusion in the thread title, and at least some of those ways are going against things we’ve been told. I don’t think it’s probable at all.

Fafnir.5124:

From Scarlet arc we know Sylvari don’t have access to part of their brain and this has something to do with the Pale Tree influence. We know once the Pale Tree influence is removed they are slowly driven crazy and kill everything around them. Sill speculation though however a decent Theory can be formed. It raises the question though what is the true nature of the Sylvari. I don’t think anyone is stating it as a fact either way because they are a 25year old race that was literally kidnapped and raised seperatly from its own race. The playable Sylvari are almost will not to act as Sylvari in the wild. I’d like to make a Wolfs and Dogs comparison.

No, we don’t know any of this. Scarlet was unbalanced to begin with, and we have plenty of evidence that there was more to her fall than just being separated from the Tree. The Soundless also separate themselves from the Dream with no apparent ill effects, and Malyck appears to have never been connected to the Dream at all, and his behaviour is closest to an amnesiac human.

EDIT @Ronin: The point is that it requires powerful magic to convert a champion, it’s never something that just happens. There’s no evidence that such magic has been used on the Pale Tree unless it happened before Ronan stole her seed. Malyck’s behaviour also indicates that a sylvari born from another tree is not a dragon minion either, so the Pale Tree is hardly a unique example. If such a ritual or an analogue has been used, it has to have been used on the progenitor of the Pale Tree or an even older generation.

Ronin.7381:

And the seed didn’t come about/hatch until the Elder Dragons started coming around.

That doesn’t directly imply a connection though, and the seed cave was found by happenstance. Ronan was in no way connected to the Elder Dragons, and he only happen to stumble upon the cave to take a seed to show his daughter. He planted it afterwards, and like most fertile seeds do, it sprouted.

No Elder Dragon involvement in the seed’s discovery or planting at all, and unless there is evidence to suggest that Pale Trees can only sprout when the Elder Dragons active, we can only assume they grow naturally like most plants do if planted in the ground.

That’s irrelevant. A veer off path be it intentional or forced, is still straying from which the original goal was intended. This doesn’t “eliminate” the similarity.

Yet, people still can’t prove that the Pale Tree ever had a pre-destined path as a dragon champion in the first place. People can assume based off theories, but until those theories get new information to back them up, they have be disproven and/or sorely lacking for a long while.

Erukk.1408:

Ronin.7381:

I wouldn’t necessarily say it holds no water. The Pale Tree itself could have very well been a Champion of Mord but also, like Glint, veered from it’s pre-destined path.

Not really, no.

The Pale Tree was found as a seed in a cave. She might have had some vague memories and thoughts while she was still a seed, but she didn’t seem to gain full enough consciousness to look out into the world until she sprouted out of the ground. That alone eliminates the “Champion of Mordremoth” theory.

I too really don’t see anything in contradiction with the minions theory. The real question is: are the seeds in the cave a draconic creation from the start, or will most of them end to be corrupted (in the later case, what’s their origin?) (it has been speculated that they could be a defensive weapon against the dragons).

What is not speculation, imo:

Granted, the Pale Tree was diverted from its genuine purpose and that’s all*.
But that doesn’t imply that its (their) genuine purpose was not to serve an Elder Dragon (nor does it imply the contrary, of course). A “realm of plants” dragon could very well generate servants through some plant-like process.

Despite the Malyck case (maybe an inconsistency?), we are also told that sylvari appearance, or a large part of it, is made human “thanks to” the massacre of humans at the Pale Tree growing site. That doesn’t mean that other trees’ fruits are not humanoid, but they are surely even less human in appearance. But the greater difference could be psychological (Ventari teaching, the Dream, Mother’s mothering).

In short, I believe that both these considerations can be taken for granted:
- the Pale Tree’s kind of specificity (and maybe the dream process of shared “memory”), and
- the shaping of the sylvari by the Pale Tree in re/deference to the humans.

I mean, we are not speculating from nothing, and any development that ignores those facts is a fail in my opinion.

What is speculation:
There is plenty room to figure how the Pale Tree managed to escape its draconic destiny (premature hatching, Ronan/Ventari infusion), and how other seeds could become trusty draconic lieutenants, now that the Dragon is awaken or in a higher state of consciousness.

Now, if the seeds are a draconic creation, who were/are deemed to (disperse? and) plant them? And when?

Also, even if we doubt that the Pale Tree, and the Grove could become corrupted/reclaimed by the Dragon (don’t we?), Scarlett’s fate could be a hint that the sylvari (the playable species) might be vulnerable to a kind of “reclamation” by means of a violent mind attack (I’ll keep the term “corruption” for other non-sylvari life-forms in case this dragon may corrupt any life-form). That could degenerate into a new enemy faction made of former children of the Pale Tree, and as such sylvari-alike (not monsters), much like courtiers, but free from the Pale Tree protection…

*: except if the vocation of all those seeds is to be found by an adventurer and planted at a “place of power” as sentinels for a greater purpose.

So, now with yet another Sylvari seemingly influenced by Mordy it might be time to accept that the Sylvari are very much tied to it (or might even be minions).

@Fafnir: You know that humans also don’t have full access to their brains, right? And it’s just a limitation on biology.

Though the Pale Tree warned against Scarlet delving further, nothing really says that the Pale Tree is behind the blocking.

And Scarlet wasn’t driven crazy due to the lack of influence from the Pale Tree – if so, then the Soundless would go crazy and start killing everything around them. Scarlet was influenced by an unknown voice of unknown origins.

Yeah, I think this release is pretty definitive. If the sylvari aren’t susceptible to Mordremoth’s corruption, then the game is certainly trying its best to mislead us.

Susceptible, I can agree with. The NPC Explorer Amoxtil (next to Prosperity Waypoint) says the vines remind her of the Nightmare Court’s influence but hasn’t seen any Courtiers active in the area.

The Zephyrites told Aerin to leave his burdens on the docks, and despite there being a Zephyrite sylvari (which we’ve seen no sight of!) there was no knowledge of the Pale Tree in the Dream. On top of that, the PC relates Aerin to being a Soundless when finding the note in the second instance.

Sounds like the Dream is the cause of sylvari immunity to corruption, and that the Soundless become susceptible-by-proximity (both Aerin and Scarlet seem to have been further west than any other sylvari, both lost ties to the Dream, presumably), and the Nightmare is beyond heavily implied to be Mordremoth’s corruption by now.

Presuming that there isn’t just some hidden Nightmare Court faction hiding behind the walls.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Presuming that there isn’t just some hidden Nightmare Court faction hiding behind the walls.

Or underground?

Tamias.7059:

Yeah, I think this release is pretty definitive. If the sylvari aren’t susceptible to Mordremoth’s corruption, then the game is certainly trying its best to mislead us.

Well susceptible is kind of a given. They’re sentient fauna and plant life needs good soil to grow healthy. Taint the soil and you have a tainted plant IE: The Red Forest. While their connection to Mord remains to be determines (whether there is a connection at all), they are plants and Mord’s domain is earth-based.

I wanted to be tentative, since proving that sylvari even can be corrupted was such a hard-fought victory for that camp. Now it’s time to carefully consider the implications of this with an open mind. What does this tell us about Scarlet and her plans? There’s a lot of evidence that needs to be re-examined in light of this—Short Story: What Scarlet Saw, Scarlet Briar’s Journal, and The Dead End: A Study in Scarlet are the first to come to mind, although I’m sure there are many more. There’s a lot of people on this forum who could have done such a thing very well long ago if they’d even been willing to pretend for a moment that this was possible and examine the evidence within that framework.

Part of this task will be figuring out whether the sylvari are merely susceptible to Mordremoth’s corruption, or whether there is actually something special about the sylvari that connects them to the Elder Dragon. As above, I think we’ll learn a lot more about this with an open-minded approach.

My feeling is that there is something special about the sylvari. We know that the call of Mordremoth from the mines doesn’t just effect sylvari, since Gigor feels it too. But quite a lot is made of the fact that Aerin and Scarlet are both sylvari, and it seems that the Pale Tree has some role that is as of yet unclear. I’m being vague here, but I’m trying to tread lightly enough that we can start on a basis on which everyone is agreed.

Well it seems that it is pretty much confirmed that any sylvari that leaves the protection of the Pale Tree can be corrupted by the dragons. Though it seems interesting that this dragon is taking a more one at a time approach instead of corrupting vast swaths of sylvari. Taking the more nuanced, secret approach it appears. Guess we will learn more as the season goes on.

Okay, let’s look at this without any preconceived notions. Here are the messages from the update:

1) The Pale Tree provides protection against mental influence through the Dream.
2) Something in the Dry Top region is influencing sylvari that enter the area without said protection.
3) Non-sylvari in the area do not appear to be so influenced (the effect in the mines appears to be from a ley line down there, not anything directly related to the influence in the minds of Scarlet and Aerin).
4) The vine creatures in the area appear to be assisting one such influenced sylvari.

Now, I think there are other possible explanations for this than Mordremoth, although I expect a certain person who is extolling everyone to keep an open mind regarding their pet theory would accuse me of reaching if I presented them. However, let’s assume that the obvious explanation is the correct one – Mordremoth is the influencing entity behind both Scarlet and Aerin, and the vines are minions of Mordremoth. What does this tell us?

Well, it tells us that part of the mechanism for sylvari protection against corruption is the Dream. This is big. In fact, the question of why the sylvari were immune to dragon corruption is exactly what the sylvari as dragon minions theory was originally intended to answer.

However, it does not point to the influence as being Mordremoth exerting control over recalcitrant former minions. First, because there is evidence of resistance against this control – from Edge of Destiny, there are moments where a dragon minion is a viewpoint character and we get to see inside their mind, and what we see is an image of such total devotion to their dragon that any concept of resistance is impossible. For those who’ve read Wizard’s First Rule (interesting world that, shame the author abandoned it after only two books) it’s akin to being touched by a Confessor. Second… the implication that it’s the Dream that provides protection suggests that it’s possible that a Soundless sylvari could be vulnerable to corruption by any of the dragons – a theory that currently remains untested, and I can think of only one organisation in Tyria amoral enough to deliberately experiment with it.

What we’re seeing is that the sylvari have been granted a form of blanket protection against dragon corruption through the Dream (whether it is the Dream itself or whether the Dream is simply a vector is unclear), and when this protection is removed, then the race of sapient plants proves particularly vulnerable to being influenced by an entity that seems to specialise in corrupting and controlling plants. Well, duh.

What I’d be really interested in at this point is to find out whether beings that have been subjected to the Forgotten ritual are linked to the Dream.

Again, Konig is blindly defending that Sylvari and Dregons aren’t strongly linked.

So far, the only race not corrupted by the other dragons are Sylvari. So far, the only race corrupted by morde are…. Sylvari.

During the new personal story, when you fight another “hum” crazy Sylvari you also encounter hostile mobs that are linked to Sylvari (hunt, husk…).

As stated in gw1, the seed of the GPT was found deep into Maguuma.

And so on…. Yes, nobody in game stated that Sylvari are minions. But you got to be blind not to see that they have something to do with Morde.

But no, nothing to see here pals, please move on.

Also, and a bit off topic. All races are represented in our “band of brothers” except Sylvari. Shall we expect one to come soon ?

Like I said in my post above yours:

What we’ve been given is the apparent mechanic by which the sylvari are protected from dragon corruption. This indicates that there is some connection between the sylvari and the dragons, but the dragons plural - it does not indicate any special connection with Mordremoth specifically.

Remove that protection, and they become vulnerable to corruption again. When that protection is removed, they become particularly vulnerable to being corrupted by an entity that specialises in corrupting plants. This is no great revelation. The revelation is that the protection is something that can be lost – that they can be corrupted by the Jungle Dragon who corrupts plants once they’ve lost it doesn’t say that they are minions of that dragon that somehow gained their freedom since.

It merely says that they are plants.

We’ve known they were plants for years.

To me, Zin, you’re blindly defending that sylvari are dragon minions.

There’s a very huge difference between “the sylvari are dragon minions” and “the sylvari are vulnerable to only one dragon’s corruption.”

In fact, the notion that sylvari can be corrupted by Mordremoth heavily hints that they are not Mordremoth’s minions. Freed or not. Because Kralkatorrik couldn’t re-corrupt Glint, by all appearances (when asked to Jeff and Ree what becomes of Glint’s ‘baby,’ they outright said it’s unknown if it can be corrupted, and iirc, hint to Glint being not re-corruptable by Kralkatorrik).

As drax says, all we have seen says one thing:

Mordremoth knows how to bypass or remove whatever keeps sylvari from being corruptible.

I don’t know what I could possibly add, as draxynnic and Konig Des Todes said it already: the sylvari are not minions, but are instead uniquely vulnerable to Mordremoth’s corruption.

Due to a number of other posts in the forums, I can speculate that the Dream helps prevent much of dragon corruption in general but cannot entirely override Mordremoth’s corruption for some reason. Likely that the ‘overgrown’, which is what seems to be Mordy’s equivalent of ‘branded’ or ‘risen’ or ‘icebrood’, are directly a corruption of plant matter. Other dragons may affect plants, as with the trees in the dragonbrand, but no other dragon has direct corrupting powers related to plant matter. Thus sylvari are most susceptible to Mordremoth’s powers.

Zin.1673:

Again, Konig is blindly defending that Sylvari and Dregons aren’t strongly linked.

So far, the only race not corrupted by the other dragons are Sylvari. So far, the only race corrupted by morde are…. Sylvari.

During the new personal story, when you fight another “hum” crazy Sylvari you also encounter hostile mobs that are linked to Sylvari (hunt, husk…).

As stated in gw1, the seed of the GPT was found deep into Maguuma.

And so on…. Yes, nobody in game stated that Sylvari are minions. But you got to be blind not to see that they have something to do with Morde.

But no, nothing to see here pals, please move on.

Also, and a bit off topic. All races are represented in our “band of brothers” except Sylvari. Shall we expect one to come soon ?

Well even then if you had run Crucible of Eternity EXP, the Inquest were experimenting on Nightmare Hounds and Husks while Project Alpha during one path of the map will use a skill with Mord’s name. This was before the Living World started.

I do not think Mord created the Sylvari but as flora, they are highly susceptible to Mord’s influence. Looking back at Season 1, Scarlet broke her mental conditioning through the College of Synergistics and contacted “something” which sent her into a downward spiral of insanity. At the start it was subtle enough, she started curious, changed to determined, and then became insane. At this point it’s safe to assume the Pale Tree acts as that mental block because without it, the Sylvari are prey to Mord’s influences.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In fact, the notion that sylvari can be corrupted by Mordremoth heavily hints that they are not Mordremoth’s minions.

1: Sons of Svanir.
2: The Branded

I think it’s kind of pointless to argue over speculative definitions of minions when if their actions fall in line with said dragon’s wishes, they’re practically doing the bidding regardless.

draxynnic.3719:

This indicates that there is some connection between the sylvari and the dragons, but the dragons plural - it does not indicate any special connection with Mordremoth specifically.

Actually, in no other instance have we ever seen a corrupted Sylvari. The Nightmare Court would be a prime target but Sylvari are not present in Jormag, Kralks, Prim, or Zhaitan’s forces. The only instance in which we see Zhaitan affecting Sylvari is in the Sylvari village in Kissex Hills where they appear sick. Scarlet was not physically sick, she started out as a curious individual learning what she could about a threat that had no name but spoke to her.

I don’t see why one could say that sylvaris are predestined minions, whereas we are sure they are a Pale Tree’s creation.

All that you can say is that chances are that the Pale Tree was a predestined minion, like all the fruits he would bear.

It’s not the same thing, I believe.

A Massive Headache.1879:

WereDragon.6083:

I reached the exact same speculation. The thing that pointed me to it was during the past LS where it mentioned the shadow and or corruption was already in scarlets mind and using the Asura’s machine unlocked it.

This lead me to believe that the Sylvari themselves are liberated dragon minions much like glint.

And that the pale tree has a block to keep Mordremeth’s influence out. I believe the Nightmare Court have this block removed and have given into Mord’s influence.

Except there are more sylvari that aren’t from the grove that aren’t evil. I really really hate the sylvari as minions theory, it just holds no water and I’m sick of it.

And yet, here you are. your presence here seems to contradict that you’re sick of it.

Ronin.7381:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In fact, the notion that sylvari can be corrupted by Mordremoth heavily hints that they are not Mordremoth’s minions.

1: Sons of Svanir.
2: The Branded

I think it’s kind of pointless to argue over speculative definitions of minions when if their actions fall in line with said dragon’s wishes, they’re practically doing the bidding regardless.

I’m not sure what your point in listing the Sons of Svanir and the Branded are.

The Branded are Kralkatorrik’s minions. The Sons of Svanir aren’t minions but are fanatics following Jormag.

What does this have to do with me saying that “the fact that Mordremoth may be capable of corrupting sylvari means only that they are susceptible to Mordremoth’s corruption.” exactly?

Ronin.7381:

Actually, in no other instance have we ever seen a corrupted Sylvari. The Nightmare Court would be a prime target but Sylvari are not present in Jormag, Kralks, Prim, or Zhaitan’s forces. The only instance in which we see Zhaitan affecting Sylvari is in the Sylvari village in Kissex Hills where they appear sick. Scarlet was not physically sick, she started out as a curious individual learning what she could about a threat that had no name but spoke to her.

That wasn’t Zhaitan’s actual corruption – we see similar things in Bloodtide Coast with quaggan, where they can get sick and even die but not corrupted.

We know full well what happens when a sylvari is touched by Zhaitan’s or Kralkatorrik’s corruption (as well as general “corrupted by Elder Dragons”):

“While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20110815225850/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

DarcShriek.5829:

And yet, here you are. your presence here seems to contradict that you’re sick of it.

Being sick of something does not mean that one will avoid it at all costs. It just means they’re tired of seeing it pop up.

I think the biggest issue here is that people cannot dissociate being influenced and being a minion.
All the other races are corruptible, does that mean they are all minions? No.
This story hints at the possibility that the Sylvari can be corrupted, not that they are all minions.
Jumping to that conclusion is asinine because playable characters are Sylvari.
If Sylvari are all minions that would mean players are also minions and that is just ridiculous and would cause huge story issues.
No, the only likely conclusion is that Sylvari are, in a way, susceptible to corruption, as all the other races are, that is all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m not sure what your point in listing the Sons of Svanir and the Branded are.

I was listing beings of which were corrupted and thus did their respected Dragon’s bidding. None of which hosted any Sylvari as you later quote that the Sylvari cannot be corrupted.

That wasn’t Zhaitan’s actual corruption – we see similar things in Bloodtide Coast with quaggan, where they can get sick and even die but not corrupted.

In order for Zhaitan to corrupt, they have to die. That’s what happens in Orr as you’re taking a team in and they are then assimilated.

We know full well what happens when a sylvari is touched by Zhaitan’s or Kralkatorrik’s corruption (as well as general “corrupted by Elder Dragons”):

“While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold.”

We also know that a corrupted individual cannot be re-corrupted. IE: Brand cannot be turned and brought into Jormag or Zhaitan’s folds. So who is to say that the Pale Tree if being a child of Mord, and the children that follow it, can be corrupted by the other dragons. It is as the text states, a death sentence and even with death being Zhaitan’s influence; he wasn’t capable of bringing Sylvari in.

You listed the Quagan who also get sick. The Quagan however can and has been corrupted by Zhaitan and thus joining his forces. With this basic principle in mind, a Sylvari couldn’t be corrupted if they were already the embodiment of Mord’s will who only have the Pale Tree for protection.

While another user did state that the Pale Tree that we know of is not the only one, Malyck does express he came from another – hence still under the influence of his parent tree.

To me, the implications are there and it’s actually the first time I’ve looked to the Sylvari as an interesting race. Only I hope as we target other Dragons that they leave the center stage. Should I be wrong, then so be it but until then it’s really up in the air.

Ronin.7381:

I was listing beings of which were corrupted and thus did their respected Dragon’s bidding. None of which hosted any Sylvari as you later quote that the Sylvari cannot be corrupted.

Yeah… but the Sons of Svanir are not corrupted.
Icebroods are corrupted. Sons of Svanir are just worshiping Jormag.

Ronin.7381:

We also know that a corrupted individual cannot be re-corrupted. IE: Brand cannot be turned and brought into Jormag or Zhaitan’s folds. So who is to say that the Pale Tree if being a child of Mord, and the children that follow it, can be corrupted by the other dragons. It is as the text states, a death sentence and even with death being Zhaitan’s influence; he wasn’t capable of bringing Sylvari in.

Actually we know for a fact that individuals CAN be corrupted by multiple Elder Dragons, it is outright shown and stated in the CoE dungeon.

lordkrall.7241:

Yeah… but the Sons of Svanir are not corrupted.
Icebroods are corrupted. Sons of Svanir are just worshiping Jormag.

But the Icebroods do consist of Sons of Svanir, those who are close and accept his influence to a stronger degree.

Actually we know for a fact that individuals CAN be corrupted by multiple Elder Dragons, it is outright shown and stated in the CoE dungeon.

That’s speculation and not definitive proof. CoE is an area for experimentation under would-be controlled environments until obviously something goes haywire thanks to Kudu. In the wilds we have not seen a single being corrupted by one Dragon and then switched for another. There hasn’t been a single brand turned Risen or brood turned brand, zero.

Ronin.7381:

But the Icebroods do consist of Sons of Svanir, those who are close and accept his influence to a stronger degree.

That’s speculation and not definitive proof. CoE is an area for experimentation under would-be controlled environments until obviously something goes haywire thanks to Kudu. In the wilds we have not seen a single being corrupted by one Dragon and then switched for another. There hasn’t been a single brand turned Risen or brood turned brand, zero.

The Icebroods consists of FORMER Sons of Svanir. They cease to be Sons of Svanir when they get corrupted.

The reason we don’t see it in nature is due to the fact that they kill each other on sight, rather than try to corrupt them if they would meet (as far as I know there is no place where multiple minions actually meet at this time).

The fact remains that it quite clearly works.

lordkrall.7241:

The reason we don’t see it in nature is due to the fact that they kill each other on sight…

And death is how Risen are made so the question remains why do we not see Risen Sylvari?

The fact remains that it quite clearly works.

Clearly it doesn’t work or we would see walking corpses of the Soundless and the Nightmare Court all over Orr.

Looking at this from another perspective. Glint didn’t gain free will on her own, it was done so through the Forgotten. Who is to say that the Pale Tree didn’t imprint on Ronan and Ventari and gained it’s free will that way? A complete accident as it were. Wrong place at the right time and all that jazz.

Ronin.7381:

Clearly it doesn’t work or we would see walking corpses of the Soundless and the Nightmare Court all over Orr.

Looking at this from another perspective. Glint didn’t gain free will on her own, it was done so through the Forgotten. Who is to say that the Pale Tree didn’t imprint on Ronan and Ventari in a similar way and gained it’s free will that way?

No, since we have known since release that Sylvari are immune to the corruption of Zhaitan (and most likely Krally) and as such they can’t be corrupted. You might have noticed that there are no risen plants, and as such it would seem like Zhaitan can’t corrupt non-“alive” stuff.

Well it is more or less confirmed that the Pale Tree does protect Sylvari from the corruption of Mordremoth.

lordkrall.7241:

No, since we have known since release that Sylvari are immune to the corruption of Zhaitan (and most likely Krally) and as such they can’t be corrupted.

And who is to say, beyond yourself and others who support your argument, that the very reason why they can’t be corrupted by Zhaitan, Kralk, Prim, or Jormag is because they are already corrupted by Mord based on heredity? We haven’t seen a single Branded or Icebrood culled into the Risen ranks.

Well it is more or less confirmed that the Pale Tree does protect Sylvari from the corruption of Mordremoth.

Which again stands to reason that all of a sudden two examples of people who lost sanction of the Pale Tree happen to go insane surrounding Mord’s awakening. That alone is highly suspect. I do agree they are of course guilty by association and thus susceptible to Mord’s influence however I could see the Pale Tree being some form of vegetational offspring of Mord. Anet prove me wrong.

Ronin.7381:

And who is to say, beyond yourself and others who support your argument, that the very reason why they can’t be corrupted by Zhaitan, Kralk, Prim, or Jormag is because they are already corrupted by Mord based on heredity? We haven’t seen a single Branded or Icebrood culled into the Risen ranks.

Because there is nothing anywhere in the game or outside that confirms that you can’t be corrupted by multiple Dragons? On the other hand there IS confirmations in game that you CAN be corrupted by multiple Dragons.

The reason why we don’t see Risen Branded or Icebrood is:
1: They are not in the same area
2: Not everyone killed by Risen appears to become Risen. I seem to recall something in the Personal Story about a certain ritual needed, but I might remember incorrectly.

lordkrall.7241:

On the other hand there IS confirmations in game that you CAN be corrupted by multiple Dragons.

The only instance we see this actually happening is in Crucible of Eternity, which as I pointed out was not only an experiment conducted by the Inquest but also ended up poorly. So as far as the world is concerned, we haven’t seen any event to suggest it’s possible in a natural environment.

Ronin.7381:

The only instance we see this actually happening is in Crucible of Eternity, which as I pointed out was not only an experiment conducted by the Inquest but also ended up poorly. So as far as the world is concerned, we haven’t seen any event to suggest it’s possible in a natural environment.

So just because it happened as part of an experiment it doesn’t confirm that it can happen?
It is completely irrelevant that we have not seen it in a natural environment (as I have pointed out multiple times, they simply don’t hang around in the same areas, and as such a natural multi-corruption wouldn’t really happen).

The fact that the Inquest DID manage to do it would suggest that it IS fully possible.

lordkrall.7241:

So just because it happened as part of an experiment it doesn’t confirm that it can happen?

Of course not because such is only accomplished through abnormal means via intervention. Subject Alpha is not natural by Elder Dragon standards so it is with that thought in mind that I believe the process would not happen outside of CoE because there is no evidence of it. I do not think it’s possible for an Elder Dragon to intentionally corrupt an already corrupted individual without said intervention and as of right now the game mirrors this belief until evidence proves otherwise.

(as I have pointed out multiple times, they simply don’t hang around in the same areas, and as such a natural multi-corruption wouldn’t really happen).

You’re expecting Kralk to be by himself in the Crystal Desert. Where we know for a fact that the Risen have been clashing with Palawa’s forces further South. So no, they aren’t that far apart and we don’t see undead branded in or around Orr where Risen are present.

Ronin.7381:

Actually, in no other instance have we ever seen a corrupted Sylvari. The Nightmare Court would be a prime target but Sylvari are not present in Jormag, Kralks, Prim, or Zhaitan’s forces.

Nightmare Court are still connected to the Dream. That’s actually kinda the point – the NC don’t want to disassociate from the Dream, they want to twist it. Thus, they still have the protection of the Dream. Soundless, on the other hand, have (although probably not deliberately) up to now kept themselves in a location where dragon minions are prevented from reaching them.

Ronin.7381:

We also know that a corrupted individual cannot be re-corrupted.

Actually, we know the exact opposite – the Inquest have shown that a being can be corrupted by the energies of multiple dragons at once. It’s just something that rarely happens outside the lab, largely because it’s extremely rare for any given region to have the influence of multiple dragons on it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just because we haven’t seen one outside of a lab, doesn’t mean multi-corrupted beings don’t exist out in the world. The Inquest proved it was possible, even if under controlled or abnormal circumstances. So unless we have a dev or in-game quote saying otherwise, we have to lead with the Inquest’s example on this case.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s just something that rarely happens outside the lab…

It’s never happened outside of a lab. That’s the point of the whole project. Subject Alpha was an experiment which houses questions in of itself as to how the Inquest managed to pull it off. Hence the “abnormality” of the whole experiment. There isn’t a single blurt or nod in the direction that a beast or being has been seen under the influence of two or more Elder Dragons at any given time. None.

Erukk.1408:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The problem with a statement like that is also the opposite, if something isn’t there – there’s just as equal possibility that it doesn’t exist. One must keep an open mind but I do ultimately agree that until the lore creators tackle the question(s), we wont know for certain. I’m not claiming facts here, I’m just going off of what we know of now and the implications/speculations that are inspired.

So unless we have a dev or in-game quote saying otherwise, we have to lead with the Inquest’s example on this case.

By that logic some synthetic elements (Einsteinium, Fermium, Mendelevium, etc…) should be Earth-made metals since the Earth possesses the compounds and environments necessary to make it, yet it was by men in labs that combined the elements because nowhere on Earth are these synthetic elements found.

Ronin.7381:

It’s never happened outside of a lab. That’s the point of the whole project. Subject Alpha was an experiment which houses questions in of itself as to how the Inquest managed to pull it off. Hence the “abnormality” of the whole experiment. There isn’t a single blurt or nod in the direction that a beast or being has been seen under the influence of two or more Elder Dragons at any given time. None.

But HOW would the Inquest be able to do it in the lab if it was impossible?
And have you EVER seen a zone where there are minions from multiple Dragons together?

Ronin.7381:

It’s never happened outside of a lab.

Do you have a dev or in-game quote backing that statement up? If not, it’s still within the realm of possibility.

There isn’t a single blurt or nod in the direction that a beast or being has been seen under the influence of two or more Elder Dragons at any given time. None.

That’s because Kudu was trying to make those multi-corrupted being only respond to him, since he was trying to make his own personal dragon minion army. He succeeded with Kudu’s Monster, but Subject Alpha was a failure on that regard.

lordkrall.7241:

But HOW would the Inquest be able to do it in the lab if it was impossible?

Of course it’s not impossible, Kudu accomplished something to that affect but again this is active intervention with the natural order of things. It’s just there’s no evidence out there to suggest its likeliness. As for how – they’re Asura who defy reality itself to create multiple dimensions throughout the mists.

And have you EVER seen a zone where there are minions from multiple Dragons together?

See the problem with this question is we haven’t been all over to know for sure. What we can do is look at the geography and we see Orr which is much closer to Kralk’s current landing place than Jormag. We know for a fact that Risen were in war with Palawa’s forces (the later of which occupies Elona) to reach Elona you have to get close to the Crystal Desert and I do not think Kralk is hiding by himself without a single source of minion/champion to cull the land.

Erukk.1408:

Do you have a dev or in-game quote backing that statement up? If not, it’s still within the realm of possibility.

Take a moment to think about what you just said. Now, can you tell me where a quote or statement confirms the existence out there? If the answer is no, we’re in the same boat regardless of our position. Which also goes with what I said, not a single excerpt of lore suggestions the existence outside of the lab.

That’s because Kudu was trying to make those multi-corrupted being only respond to him, since he was trying to make his own personal dragon minion army. He succeeded with Kudu’s Monster, but Subject Alpha was a failure on that regard.

They were all failures because Kudu failed. It’s rather quite simple. That and we still don’t know what transpired to allow him to accomplish it. He was practically trying to turn himself into an Elder Dragon and judging by both Necromancers and Elementalists, whose to say the experiments were even true legitimate test subjects and not imitations?

Ronin.7381:

See the problem with this question is we haven’t been all over to know for sure. What we can do is look at the geography and we see Orr which is much closer to Kralk’s current landing place than Jormag. We know for a fact that Risen were in war with Palawa’s forces (the later of which occupies Elona) to reach Elona you have to get close to the Crystal Desert and I do not think Kralk is hiding by himself without a single source of minion/champion to cull the land.

Exactly, we haven’t been all over, and as such we don’t know if it has happened naturally.
We DO however know that it CAN happen since we have been SHOWN it extremely clearly in game.

Yes, Risen does (or at least did) fight Palawa’s forces, but Krally is in the NORTHERN part of the desert, which would suggest that it is fully possible that they never actually face off. And even if they did, we don’t really have any information about it since we can’t access that area yet.

The fact also remains that not everyone killed by a Risen becomes a Risen, so even if they did face off it is no guarantee that they would become corrupted.

lordkrall.7241:

We DO however know that it CAN happen since we have been SHOWN it extremely clearly in game.

I’m going to have you continuously going in circles here. The only reason why it occurs is due to specific circumstances that are as of this point not found anywhere else according to anything found in lore. It was done by an Asura and his accomplices. Who is to say, beyond yourself and advocate of your view, the experiment was even legitimate? They could have been imitations for all we know.

Therefore the question of possibility of double-corruption is highly suspect.

So you are basing your argument on something that MIGHT be the case, while basically saying our arguments are wrong, because it was not shown in a natural environment despite the fact that we actually have undeniable confirmations?

Ronin.7381:

Take a moment to think about what you just said. Now, can you tell me where a quote or statement confirms the existence out there? If the answer is no, we’re in the same boat regardless of our position. Which also goes with what I said, not a single excerpt of lore suggestions the existence outside of the lab.

That’s where we differ. I’m not trying to prove their existence out in the wild. I’m talking about this possible existence out in the wild. The Inquest has shown proof that multi-corrupted can exist, and that leads to the possibility of their existence in the wild given the right circumstances. Probably extremely rare, but possible.

You’re the one that’s trying to prove their nonexistence in the wild. The burden of proof falls on you.

They were all failures because Kudu failed. It’s rather quite simple. That and we still don’t know what transpired to allow him to accomplish it. He was practically trying to turn himself into an Elder Dragon and judging by both Necromancers and Elementalists, whose to say the experiments were even true legitimate test subjects and not imitations?

Success is success, killed in the end or not. Even though we don’t know how he did it, he created a multi-corrupted being, in the form of Kudu’s Monster, under his control. There is no denying that. If you have information that could bring the legitimacy of Kudu’s experiments into question, feel free to post them. Until then, we are only using the facts given to us.

lordkrall.7241:

So you are basing your argument on something that MIGHT be the case, while basically saying our arguments are wrong, because it was not shown in a natural environment despite the fact that we actually have undeniable confirmations?

None of that victimizing nonsense, stop that. I’ve never said you were wrong just as I have never said I was right. I think people are overlooking variables for a simple explanation and not considering the implications.

Atomic weapons for example cannot occur naturally in the wilderness, it was through human hands that the pieces were put together and constructed. Crucible of Eternity was one giant lab and key to conducting experiments.

Erukk.1408:

You’re the one that’s trying to prove their nonexistence in the wild. The burden of proof falls on you.

Show me proof that this has happened anywhere else outside of Crucible of Eternity. Go on, I’ll wait. I’m legitimately curious. Because if you find it then I’ll admit I was wrong and move on as any responsible person will or should. However, consider the following if you can’t…..

Ronin.7381:

Show me proof that this has happened anywhere else outside of Crucible of Eternity. Go on, I’ll wait. I’m legitimately curious. Because if you find it then I’ll admit I was wrong and move on as any responsible person will or should. However, consider the following if you can’t…..

Possibility.

I’m not arguing that they do exist in the wild. I’m arguing that it’s possible for them to occur in the wild. There is a big difference.

Though, since you keep on trying to shift the burden of proof to our side of the argument, I’m guessing you have nothing to back up all those very definitive statements you have kept saying? Until you do, this debate is just about over.

ANet, purposefully, has not given enough information on the connection between the Sylvari and Mordremoth, let alone the nature of the pale tree.

Most of these theories can be true simply because we don’t know enough.
We don’t know what’s going on with the other pale tree(s).
We don’t know who or what made them.
We don’t know the connection between Modremoth and any of the creatures in the land including Sylvari.
We don’t know if what happened to Scarlet and the other Sylvari is Mordremoth or a third party.
We don’t know a lot of things. lol

All we have if vague hints and plot hole ridden “facts” because ANet hasn’t give us enough information.
In reality, we would’ve forced the pale tree to explain how she works to understand and better prepare against the dragons, and I’m sure she would’ve explained willingly.

This mystery story wouldn’t happen in real life, it’s just the writers stringing along players to keep them interested, which is clearly working.
Personally though, I don’t see the point in arguing what is right and wrong until we have 100% confirmation. Which we don’t.

I mean little pink aliens from another dimension name The Kraang could be behind it all. lol