Guild Wars 2

a lot of people harbored some hatred for Asura, or mostly towards Vorpp himself after Seeds of Truth for experimenting on Sylvari.

But now that we know the truth, his research is justified, we’re not experimenting on people afterall, just dragon minions, constructs, with pre-programmed personalities. It’s not much different from disassembling a golem when you think about it.

I wonder if his researched turned up anything useful on how to best stop the Sylvari menace?

I think the only researcher that would be qualified to handle this as of now with the new revelation is Gorr. As he seems to be the leading expert on dragons and magic, perhaps he could explain the sylvari phenomenon better than anyone else. Vorpp no doubt has notes and research that others could learn from.

What’s that saying about two wrongs not making a right?

It doesn’t matter what they are, it’s what he thought they were. If he thought they were sentient, and experimented on them anyway, it doesn’t matter what they actually are. For instance, if you sneak into someone’s room, and shoot them, but it turns out they’re already dead, you’re STILL guilty of attempted murder, even tho they were already dead.

Still a monster. Even more than what a-net portrayed the sylvari that attacked the pact, they lacked free will , the asura did not. And it wasn’t an experiment to figure what they were (non invasive experiments and such), he just wanted a golem battery. So no, even after this ,i still regard the asura as lowest race in terms of morality, arrogance and hypocrisy.

Nothing is justified, he was still a monster. He didn’t know what sylvari are at that time and he didn’t care. He would still do it regardless of anything.

It’s not justified. He had no idea about the dragon-silvari relation in the first place. He just started making experiments….and even so it’s wrong.

You know the dragons might have a point in what they do, tabula rasa might be the way to go after all, cleaning the world of all the morally deprived low life so the world might get a chance with a new start might be worth it…

in a war each side has it’s points. The side that kills more usually proves it’s points are better. Sad but true.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

What’s that saying about two wrongs not making a right?

The pact being destroyed from the inside out. That beautiful thing called hindsight.

Cut ’em all up.

You selfish racist fool..

Don’t you really see it? If you wouldn’t have been treating us like this from the beginning, most of us would not be so susceptible to dragon’s influence. And now that we are trying to resist its power, now that we have to face such a burden, struggle to change our destiny.. Now you turn your back on us? After all we’ve done to help save this world? YOUR world?

Fine. But know that we’re not your enemy. And we shall keep trying to restore balance, with your help or not. Before you raise your sword, make sure it doesn’t fall on you.

PsiQss.6927:

You selfish racist fool..

Don’t you really see it? If you wouldn’t have been treating us like this from the beginning, most of us would not be so susceptible to dragon’s influence. And now that we are trying to resist its power, now that we have to face such a burden, struggle to change our destiny.. Now you turn your back on us? After all we’ve done to help save this world? YOUR world?

Fine. But know that we’re not your enemy. And we shall keep trying to restore balance, with your help or not. Before you raise your sword, make sure it doesn’t fall on you.

Roleplayer in a nutshell.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

What’s that saying about two wrongs not making a right?

Experimenting on people is a wrong but disassembling constructs is at worst a morally grey area.

Rebound.3409:

It’s not justified. He had no idea about the dragon-silvari relation in the first place. He just started making experiments….and even so it’s wrong.

Had his experiments been allowed to continue he may have figured out their true nature! It could have saved Tyria from ever having Mordremoth wake up until the other 5 dragons were already dead and they could face him all alone, with one of his Champions (the pale tree) already removed from the equation!

Should have, Could have, Might have, Would have.

You never give judgement on those. You can’t know what the result would have been.
Fact: he experimented on them without warning or consent
Fact: he used them aparently just to make a new “power supply” using their energy
Fact: asuras tend to not care about others that much as they do about themselves. This means they don’t care as much about saving, as they do about exploiting in the name of discovery. They consider other races inferior which could easily translate in “not worth saving” especially for:
Fact: the dude was part of the Inquest…do i need to tell u more about the Inquest?

Devildoc.6721:

we’re not experimenting on people afterall, just dragon minions, constructs, with pre-programmed personalities.

Ridiculous.

First, you cannot justify actions based on information you learn later. The Asura culture is abhorrent for it’s flagrant disregard of the basic dignity of sapient beings, and the culture of the Inquest takes that to a level that is both evil and stupid. Asuran culture breeds sociopaths, and the Inquest collects the most… special of them.

Second, you cannot act just as ruthlessly bad as your enemies and still consider yourself better. That simply makes you a different kind of bad.

And third, what evidence is there that dragon minions are pre-programmed personalities? That’s absurd. They show a wide range of behavior, they can learn, and above all they can be freed and granted full free will. Creation and influence is not the same as non-sapience. (And that’s just in-game. Outside the game we absolutely know that Sylvari have free will- because they are able to be player characters. If they had no free will we would hit the button to start their story and then sit back to watch the character play up to 80 itself.)

Silalus.8760:

Devildoc.6721:

we’re not experimenting on people afterall, just dragon minions, constructs, with pre-programmed personalities.

Ridiculous.

First, you cannot justify actions based on information you learn later. The Asura culture is abhorrent for it’s flagrant disregard of the basic dignity of sapient beings, and the culture of the Inquest takes that to a level that is both evil and stupid. Asuran culture breeds sociopaths, and the Inquest collects the most… special of them.

Second, you cannot act just as ruthlessly bad as your enemies and still consider yourself better. That simply makes you a different kind of bad.

And third, what evidence is there that dragon minions are pre-programmed personalities? That’s absurd. They show a wide range of behavior, they can learn, and above all they can be freed and granted full free will. Creation and influence is not the same as non-sapience. (And that’s just in-game. Outside the game we absolutely know that Sylvari have free will- because they are able to be player characters. If they had no free will we would hit the button to start their story and then sit back to watch the character play up to 80 itself.)

Sylvari wake up already knowing what they have to do in their life. Their life’s purpose is programmed into them.

Their programming might not be “must kill Sarah Connor” but the basis is the same, they’re compelled to do something they might not normally choose if they had true free will.

Calling it. Sylvari are now the equivalence to the Blood elves. In the GW universe.

I think you might have misunderstood the nature of the Sylvari.
Also, only a few of them have “wyld hunts”, which is the closer thing to a “program” that they have. And after completing them, that’s it (except for the Sylvari PC).
They are sentient beings. They have feelings, intelligence, and they do have free will. Yes, really. Just a small number of the Sylvari that were born from the Pale Tree can even be controlled by the dragon (only the ones that turned their back on the Dream).

So no, Vorpp is a monster and I would like to shove him in a blender.

Wait let me quote Mewtwo on you guys.

I sometimes make salad when i don’t have multivitamin tabs and i don’t care cabbage feelings at all.

Sylvari are clearly sentient and capable of feeling pain. The fact that someone lacks free will in certain situations does not diminish their personhood or mean they can be tortured with no moral issue.

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

Sylvari are clearly sentient and capable of feeling pain. The fact that someone lacks free will in certain situations does not diminish their personhood or mean they can be tortured with no moral issue.

When their entire existence is to serve a dragon as constructed dragon minions, they’re not people.

Devildoc.6721:

When their entire existence is to serve a dragon as constructed dragon minions, they’re not people.

On the contrary, the Sylvari are demonstrably able to have an autonomous existence, thought, and emotion. The fact that certain circumstances (which we are not sure yet the exact nature of) appear to be able to override their autonomy does not reduce them to mere objects.

Devildoc.6721:

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

Sylvari are clearly sentient and capable of feeling pain. The fact that someone lacks free will in certain situations does not diminish their personhood or mean they can be tortured with no moral issue.

When their entire existence is to serve a dragon as constructed dragon minions, they’re not people.

I thought you might just be trolling, and with this comment now I’m pretty sure, since you couldn’t genuinely believe it’s meant to be that simple if you played the game. You’re not the only one, I get it, hurr hurr stupid salads.

So…

Yeah. Honestly, I’m going to act too serious, get accused of not taking a joke, but I am going to admit that it’s not very funny. Because this happens in the real world, with real people, who are born to the wrong parents or in the wrong place. Hate kills.

Often.

What can men do against such reckless hate?

We can start by not pretending it’s ok.

Devildoc.6721:

Silalus.8760:

Devildoc.6721:

we’re not experimenting on people afterall, just dragon minions, constructs, with pre-programmed personalities.

Ridiculous.

First, you cannot justify actions based on information you learn later. The Asura culture is abhorrent for it’s flagrant disregard of the basic dignity of sapient beings, and the culture of the Inquest takes that to a level that is both evil and stupid. Asuran culture breeds sociopaths, and the Inquest collects the most… special of them.

Second, you cannot act just as ruthlessly bad as your enemies and still consider yourself better. That simply makes you a different kind of bad.

And third, what evidence is there that dragon minions are pre-programmed personalities? That’s absurd. They show a wide range of behavior, they can learn, and above all they can be freed and granted full free will. Creation and influence is not the same as non-sapience. (And that’s just in-game. Outside the game we absolutely know that Sylvari have free will- because they are able to be player characters. If they had no free will we would hit the button to start their story and then sit back to watch the character play up to 80 itself.)

Sylvari wake up already knowing what they have to do in their life. Their life’s purpose is programmed into them.

Their programming might not be “must kill Sarah Connor” but the basis is the same, they’re compelled to do something they might not normally choose if they had true free will.

So, if they’re pre-programmed as you say…how does that explain Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr…which belongs to another Elder Dragon? Doesn’t make sense now does it. IF the Pale Tree had grown in another area and not upon the place Ventari and Ronan had set up camp, I could see your argument…see Malyck(from one of the other tree[s]). Therefore, the Sylvari from the Pale Tree would have been Dragon Minions had they not been born of the Pale Tree, which is what you will find with the Soundless and Nightmare Court, those that have abandoned the Dream can be considered Dragon Minions, but not those that still belong to the Dream as the Dream is not of Mordremoth.

Zaklex.6308:

Devildoc.6721:

Silalus.8760:

Devildoc.6721:

we’re not experimenting on people afterall, just dragon minions, constructs, with pre-programmed personalities.

Ridiculous.

First, you cannot justify actions based on information you learn later. The Asura culture is abhorrent for it’s flagrant disregard of the basic dignity of sapient beings, and the culture of the Inquest takes that to a level that is both evil and stupid. Asuran culture breeds sociopaths, and the Inquest collects the most… special of them.

Second, you cannot act just as ruthlessly bad as your enemies and still consider yourself better. That simply makes you a different kind of bad.

And third, what evidence is there that dragon minions are pre-programmed personalities? That’s absurd. They show a wide range of behavior, they can learn, and above all they can be freed and granted full free will. Creation and influence is not the same as non-sapience. (And that’s just in-game. Outside the game we absolutely know that Sylvari have free will- because they are able to be player characters. If they had no free will we would hit the button to start their story and then sit back to watch the character play up to 80 itself.)

Sylvari wake up already knowing what they have to do in their life. Their life’s purpose is programmed into them.

Their programming might not be “must kill Sarah Connor” but the basis is the same, they’re compelled to do something they might not normally choose if they had true free will.

So, if they’re pre-programmed as you say…how does that explain Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr…which belongs to another Elder Dragon? Doesn’t make sense now does it. IF the Pale Tree had grown in another area and not upon the place Ventari and Ronan had set up camp, I could see your argument…see Malyck(from one of the other tree[s]). Therefore, the Sylvari from the Pale Tree would have been Dragon Minions had they not been born of the Pale Tree, which is what you will find with the Soundless and Nightmare Court, those that have abandoned the Dream can be considered Dragon Minions, but not those that still belong to the Dream as the Dream is not of Mordremoth.

The Dragon wasn’t awake at that time and the pale tree was influenced by Ventari’s teachings, so, they were programmed with different things instead of the will of the Dragon.

Now that the Dragon is awake, he is overwriting that philosophy, so we will see the extent of that in the future, but basically, the Pale Tree could be considered to be somewhat like Glint, a Dragon Champion that broke away, that is why the Pale tree is being targetted and weakened. How effective the Pale Tree is at protecting her constructs in her weakened state is left to be seen but evidence we see so far, suggests her ability to protect them may be weakening and some may be lost to the Dragon, for sure the other Sylvari born from other trees not the Pale Tree we know, for sure the Nightmare court, and likely the Soundless, and possibly some of the dreamers depending on how weak she is and how strong those Sylvari are.

Ya’ll get way too defensive about a fantasy race. I for one find it interesting to have a somewhat self aware but not entirely free construct that feels the pull of their programming and yet can still make some free choices.

It brings up the question that if we create an AI, and an Android, do we consider that android a person. It is make as a replica to us, and it may have signals that it interprets to be analogus to pain and suffering, but it is still something we created artificially from inorganic materials and programmed.

I consider Sylvari not to be quite people, but rather like Androids at this point.

I also don’t consider this to be analogous at all to real world racism. We humans on planet earth are all the same species, so we’re not even really races, we’re just different ethnicities. On Tyria they are different species, actual races, and Sylvari being a construct, well, that’s just how their nature is. Dragon Champions create minions in imitation of things in the environment or corrupt those organisms in the environment to work for them. Sylvari are the former, minions created in imitation of humans.

^They are still sentient beings capable of thoughts and emotions, no matter if you think that they can be compared with androids (which I disagree with) or not, which still makes Vorpp a monster.

(And, really, even if he didn’t do all of that to the Sylvari, sending Inquest to chase a child across the desert and to attack her is also a monstrous thing to do)

Devildoc.6721:

Ya’ll get way too defensive about a fantasy race.

I’m not particularly emotional about the Sylvari. I’m just very disappointed to see so many people who think it’s hilarious to make Asura “master race” jokes and explore what it would feel like to use real hate speech by coming up with new, safe vegetable-based slurs.

I thought that’s what you were doing- I apologize, you obviously really are trying to explore the lore and figure out the universe, so I was wrong to assume that.

So that having been said, back to the actual lore- I think I might be able to make this less ambiguous for you.

Devildoc.6721:

I for one find it interesting to have a somewhat self aware but not entirely free construct that feels the pull of their programming and yet can still make some free choices.

The thing is, you just described almost exactly what it is to be a human being. The only thing in that sentence that is different from the human condition, depending on your belief system, is the word “construct”.

And that’s the real world.

Tyria exists in a fantasy world. Magic is the stuff of life. You don’t need any religion to believe a living being can be created. All you need to do is believe in Tyrian life magic- which it would be rather silly not to believe in, since consuming it is the entire reason dragons do what they do, and manipulating it is part of what makes them so powerful.

Rocks, flames, and huge trees seem to just get up and start walking around in this world. It’s not much of a stretch to think that when a dragon creates something that looks alive, it really is alive. Heck, it’s hard to imagine otherwise. And if that something seems to think, love, hate, compose poetry, make mistakes, and all the other trappings of intelligent life, what possible reason do we have to think it isn’t intelligent life? Because the wrong force of nature made it?

What happens when we find out which god created Tyrian humans out of a lump of clay? Does that mean we’ll decide humans aren’t really people either? Is that true in every fantasy world with a known creator? Where instead of human instincts and reflexes and unconscious behavior being the product of natural selection, they are the product of a deity? None of those should be considered real people?

When you put it in context of the world it isn’t actually reasonable to compare Sylvari to AI’s or androids. That’s a sci-fi thing. This is a fantasy thing. They don’t just look like thinking, talking plants- they are thinking, talking plants.

Gabby.3205:

^They are still sentient beings capable of thoughts and emotions, no matter if you think that they can be compared with androids (which I disagree with) or not, which still makes Vorpp a monster.

(And, really, even if he didn’t do all of that to the Sylvari, sending Inquest to chase a child across the desert and to attack her is also a monstrous thing to do)

Vorpp isn’t Inquest, he wasn’t involved in chasing Taimi at all if that’s what you’re suggesting.

As Vorpp said before, he experimented on the Sylvari because they were an anomaly. IE they’re not like other sentient beings, which are born as children and grow into adulthood and then have children of their own.

Silalus.8760:

Devildoc.6721:

Ya’ll get way too defensive about a fantasy race.

I’m not particularly emotional about the Sylvari. I’m just very disappointed to see so many people who think it’s hilarious to make Asura “master race” jokes and explore what it would feel like to use real hate speech by coming up with new, safe vegetable-based slurs.

I thought that’s what you were doing- I apologize, you obviously really are trying to explore the lore and figure out the universe, so I was wrong to assume that.

So that having been said, back to the actual lore- I think I might be able to make this less ambiguous for you.

Devildoc.6721:

I for one find it interesting to have a somewhat self aware but not entirely free construct that feels the pull of their programming and yet can still make some free choices.

The thing is, you just described almost exactly what it is to be a human being. The only thing in that sentence that is different from the human condition, depending on your belief system, is the word “construct”.

And that’s the real world.

Tyria exists in a fantasy world. Magic is the stuff of life. You don’t need any religion to believe a living being can be created. All you need to do is believe in Tyrian life magic- which it would be rather silly not to believe in, since consuming it is the entire reason dragons do what they do, and manipulating it is part of what makes them so powerful.

Rocks, flames, and huge trees seem to just get up and start walking around in this world. It’s not much of a stretch to think that when a dragon creates something that looks alive, it really is alive. Heck, it’s hard to imagine otherwise. And if that something seems to think, love, hate, compose poetry, make mistakes, and all the other trappings of intelligent life, what possible reason do we have to think it isn’t intelligent life? Because the wrong force of nature made it?

What happens when we find out which god created Tyrian humans out of a lump of clay? Does that mean we’ll decide humans aren’t really people either? Is that true in every fantasy world with a known creator? Where instead of human instincts and reflexes and unconscious behavior being the product of natural selection, they are the product of a deity? None of those should be considered real people?

When you put it in context of the world it isn’t actually reasonable to compare Sylvari to AI’s or androids. That’s a sci-fi thing. This is a fantasy thing. They don’t just look like thinking, talking plants- they are thinking, talking plants.

I never said anything about Asura being a master race. I like Asura but they have their shortcomings. I also don’t mean calling them constructs as slurs just.. describing them as their nature seems to make them.

I AM trying to separate them out I suppose as constructs rather than calling them people because their nature of how they came to be and what they really are as Dragon Minions. Constructs describes their “life cycle” more appropriately I think anyway.

Experimentation on people (without their consent, anyway) is always taboo and wrong, but experimentation on other animals is only an ethically grey area, we do it all the time and justify it, and experimentation on machines/devices isn’t even morally wrong in the slightest.

So where Sylvari fall into that spectrum is up for interpretation and possibly justified because they are created like devices/machines rather than born like animals, and the nature of their intelligence was unknown at Vorpp’s time

Sylvari are people as much as Glint is a person. Experimenting on Glint is wrong because she is a sentient free willed creature. The same is true of the sylvari.

This anti-sylvari sentiment is getting ridiculous. They’re not pre-programmed. They don’t lack free will. Sylvari actively KILL mordrem and have KILLED the Shadow of the Dragon both in the Dream and in reality. No other dragon minions kill dragon minions of the same type.

Sons of Svanir kill norn women turned into icebrood, but Sons of Svanir are not icebrood. They are not corrupted yet.

Kralk killed Glint only after Glint became free.

Sylvari are free-willed and anti-Mordremoth and anti-other dragons. Just because they can be corrupted doesn’t make them a target any more than the fact that charr can become branded or asura can become risen.

Sylvari hate isn’t edgy or cool, it’s just silly.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

What’s that saying about two wrongs not making a right?

It’s not even 2 wrongs. The Sylvari weren’t doing anything wrong.

I mean, kidnapping is a separate wrong from torturing someone to death, so I guess we can count those as 2 separate wrongs. In that case you’re correct – neither of those cancels out the other.

Devildoc.6721:

Silalus.8760:

Devildoc.6721:

Ya’ll get way too defensive about a fantasy race.

I’m not particularly emotional about the Sylvari. I’m just very disappointed to see so many people who think it’s hilarious to make Asura “master race” jokes and explore what it would feel like to use real hate speech by coming up with new, safe vegetable-based slurs.

I thought that’s what you were doing- I apologize, you obviously really are trying to explore the lore and figure out the universe, so I was wrong to assume that.

So that having been said, back to the actual lore- I think I might be able to make this less ambiguous for you.

Devildoc.6721:

I for one find it interesting to have a somewhat self aware but not entirely free construct that feels the pull of their programming and yet can still make some free choices.

The thing is, you just described almost exactly what it is to be a human being. The only thing in that sentence that is different from the human condition, depending on your belief system, is the word “construct”.

And that’s the real world.

Tyria exists in a fantasy world. Magic is the stuff of life. You don’t need any religion to believe a living being can be created. All you need to do is believe in Tyrian life magic- which it would be rather silly not to believe in, since consuming it is the entire reason dragons do what they do, and manipulating it is part of what makes them so powerful.

Rocks, flames, and huge trees seem to just get up and start walking around in this world. It’s not much of a stretch to think that when a dragon creates something that looks alive, it really is alive. Heck, it’s hard to imagine otherwise. And if that something seems to think, love, hate, compose poetry, make mistakes, and all the other trappings of intelligent life, what possible reason do we have to think it isn’t intelligent life? Because the wrong force of nature made it?

What happens when we find out which god created Tyrian humans out of a lump of clay? Does that mean we’ll decide humans aren’t really people either? Is that true in every fantasy world with a known creator? Where instead of human instincts and reflexes and unconscious behavior being the product of natural selection, they are the product of a deity? None of those should be considered real people?

When you put it in context of the world it isn’t actually reasonable to compare Sylvari to AI’s or androids. That’s a sci-fi thing. This is a fantasy thing. They don’t just look like thinking, talking plants- they are thinking, talking plants.

I never said anything about Asura being a master race. I like Asura but they have their shortcomings. I also don’t mean calling them constructs as slurs just.. describing them as their nature seems to make them.

I AM trying to separate them out I suppose as constructs rather than calling them people because their nature of how they came to be and what they really are as Dragon Minions. Constructs describes their “life cycle” more appropriately I think anyway.

Experimentation on people (without their consent, anyway) is always taboo and wrong, but experimentation on other animals is only an ethically grey area, we do it all the time and justify it, and experimentation on machines/devices isn’t even morally wrong in the slightest.

So where Sylvari fall into that spectrum is up for interpretation and possibly justified because they are created like devices/machines rather than born like animals, and the nature of their intelligence was unknown at Vorpp’s time

OK, time for some education.

Emerging from a birth state fully formed does not mean ‘is a construct’. If you think back to your high school biology class, you’ll understand this better. The birth process has no bearing on whether a being is a being or not. Beings get born in call kinds of ways. The only way beings don’t get born is in pieces – no animal I know if is assembled by other animals from bits and pieces. Bits and pieces put together are how constructs are made. Sylvari are grown in a birth chamber and inherit characteristics from a mother. Ergo, not constructs.

Also, Sylvari speak and use tools. This makes them not just beings, but intelligent beings.

Vorp didn’t know anything about the Sylvari birth process. What he knew was that these beings talked and could use tools. That’s certainly enough to bar them from use in experiments. I’m not really sure how you can defend his absolute lack of morals with a straight face.

Out of all the races, it seems to me that Sylvari had the most pleasant demeanor minus the baddies.

Asura were and will always be arrogant. Seems they lack conscience. Charr are war mongers. Humans were common and predictable. None of my characters are Norn coz I never really cared about oversized humans that drink a lot.

Pimsley.3681:

Out of all the races, it seems to me that Sylvari had the most pleasant demeanor minus the baddies.

Asura were and will always be arrogant. Seems they lack conscience. Charr are war mongers. Humans were common and predictable. None of my characters are Norn coz I never really cared about oversized humans that drink a lot.

The Norn are incredibly nice and pleasant to be around, too. Gentle giants, you know

Gabby.3205:

Pimsley.3681:

Out of all the races, it seems to me that Sylvari had the most pleasant demeanor minus the baddies.

Asura were and will always be arrogant. Seems they lack conscience. Charr are war mongers. Humans were common and predictable. None of my characters are Norn coz I never really cared about oversized humans that drink a lot.

The Norn are incredibly nice and pleasant to be around, too. Gentle giants, you know

I think you’re right. They seem to cause the least trouble

Devildoc.6721:

a lot of people harbored some hatred for Asura, or mostly towards Vorpp himself after Seeds of Truth for experimenting on Sylvari.

But now that we know the truth, his research is justified, we’re not experimenting on people afterall, just dragon minions, constructs, with pre-programmed personalities. It’s not much different from disassembling a golem when you think about it.

I wonder if his researched turned up anything useful on how to best stop the Sylvari menace?

You know… the asura escaped Primordous when he arose, right? They were in the way because they were attracted to magical things, and tended to gather magic for their own use. But they got away… somehow.

And now? Well, now they’re on the surface, attracted to magical things and gathering magical power. What if Primordous LET them get away? What if he’s using them like a beekeeper uses bees to gather honey? Is it possible that asura are unknowingly working as dragon minions?

Experiments may be in order to find out.

Devildoc.6721:

As Vorpp said before, he experimented on the Sylvari because they were an anomaly. IE they’re not like other sentient beings, which are born as children and grow into adulthood and then have children of their own.

I think that using maturation and reproduction as the markers of personhood is a problematic standard.

Gilosean.3805:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

What’s that saying about two wrongs not making a right?

It’s not even 2 wrongs. The Sylvari weren’t doing anything wrong.

I mean, kidnapping is a separate wrong from torturing someone to death, so I guess we can count those as 2 separate wrongs. In that case you’re correct – neither of those cancels out the other.

Caithe and Faolin did far more than 2 wrongs.

Gilosean.3805:

OK, time for some education.

Emerging from a birth state fully formed does not mean ‘is a construct’. If you think back to your high school biology class, you’ll understand this better. The birth process has no bearing on whether a being is a being or not. Beings get born in call kinds of ways. The only way beings don’t get born is in pieces – no animal I know if is assembled by other animals from bits and pieces. Bits and pieces put together are how constructs are made. Sylvari are grown in a birth chamber and inherit characteristics from a mother. Ergo, not constructs.

Also, Sylvari speak and use tools. This makes them not just beings, but intelligent beings.

Vorp didn’t know anything about the Sylvari birth process. What he knew was that these beings talked and could use tools. That’s certainly enough to bar them from use in experiments. I’m not really sure how you can defend his absolute lack of morals with a straight face.

Single celled organisms are not “people”. Heck, as of right now we only grant one species on the planet the rights of “personhood”, with a few places in the world extending the definitions to Dolphins, Great Apes, and Elephants (which I agree with)

We also don’t know if Sylvari are assembled in parts, or grow as other life does by cell division.

Maybe that should be an experiment to determine their personhood status.

Devildoc.6721:

We also don’t know if Sylvari are assembled in parts, or grow as other life does by cell division.

Maybe that should be an experiment to determine their personhood status.

Frankly I don’t see why it matters, aside from curiosity. If they show every other mark of sentience, what difference does it make if they were assembled or grew from cell division? It seems like about the most arbitrary standard possible.

Devildoc.6721:

~Snip~

So where Sylvari fall into that spectrum is up for interpretation and possibly justified because they are created like devices/machines rather than born like animals, and the nature of their intelligence was unknown at Vorpp’s time

I cut the rest of your post out because here is where I think you’re wrong, and this is a completely logical response…not emotional. If they were constructed or created like devices/machines, they would have almost no need to learn of the world around them. However, they are neither constructed nor created, but instead grow inside pods and birth having completely grown into an adult, with some knowledge of the world, but still having the desire and need to learn. Remember, they’re sentient plants, so they would grow like plants, in this case, they grow entirely within the seed pod and aren’t born until they’re and “adult”. I’m using the term “adult” to represent their size and not age, as when they’re born they’re considered sprouts, even though they’re full size and have to go to “classes”. What I do think, is that they were meant to be sentient Dragon minions able to think for themselves, but with underlying “instructions” from Mordremoth, which was broken when Ronan planted the Pale Tree’s seed near Ventari and it could “learn” his teachings.

I am Groot!!!!!!!!!!!

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

Devildoc.6721:

We also don’t know if Sylvari are assembled in parts, or grow as other life does by cell division.

Maybe that should be an experiment to determine their personhood status.

Frankly I don’t see why it matters, aside from curiosity. If they show every other mark of sentience, what difference does it make if they were assembled or grew from cell division? It seems like about the most arbitrary standard possible.

Well, I always thought they grew from cell division.
You know where the Sylvari PC wakes up? If you go there and look up, you can see things inside transparent spheres that, to me, look a lot like fetuses.
I’m not in my computer right now so I can’t post a screenshot.

SenorMoody.5908:

I am Groot!!!!!!!!!!!

Your point is valid.

I would like to call attention to something Caithe says at the end of the latest chapter:

“Already Sylvari have begun to lose their minds. Mordremoth won’t stop there.”

Who’s to say that Mordremoth can’t mentally dominate ALL humanoids? He’s the Elder Dragon of Mind, after all. Sylvari may only be the first victims due to their legacy and plant-based nature. It may be wiser to research a cure/antidote for the domination first, before it affects everyone.

Except the only experiment Vorpp seemed to be doing in the LS was to see if he could power golems with Sylvari life force – and unless he was both blind and deaf he should have recognized they have sentience.

It doesn’t matter if Sylvari are constructs (which they technically aren’t, they’re grown and are punted out of their wombs at adulthood instead of infancy, so they just don’t have the same life cycles as mammals) or not, the fact is he murdered sentient beings just to see if they could be a better battery. His disrespect for the life and sentience of races he doesn’t recognize is what makes him monstrous, that the one experiment we were shown (we have no idea who or what else he has experimented on in his career) coincidentally turned out to be on peaceful dragon minions does not invalidate this.

CalamityO.2890:

Calling it. Sylvari are now the equivalence to the Blood elves. In the GW universe.

So they’re magical crack addicts?

Zaklex.6308:

So, if they’re pre-programmed as you say…how does that explain Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr…which belongs to another Elder Dragon? Doesn’t make sense now does it.

Um maybe Trahearne was cleaning Orr because Mordy wanted some beach front property and there was a bunch of stinky risen clogging up the place.

Zaklex.6308:

…see Malyck(from one of the other tree[s]).

Sleeper agent Malyck you mean.

Gabby.3205:

^They are still sentient beings capable of thoughts and emotions, no matter if you think that they can be compared with androids

Are they truly intelligent or at they just so well programmed as to give the illusion of intelligence and sentience. Basically maybe they’re just super good at passing the Turing Test, which wouldn’t technically require them to be intelligent or sentient at all.

i don’t think there’s a problem in experimenting on plants whatsoever. them being dragon minions or not. next thing you’ll tell me i shall stop eating meat because humans/asura/norn have feelings and stuff.

zaced.7948:

i don’t think there’s a problem in experimenting on plants whatsoever. them being dragon minions or not. next thing you’ll tell me i shall stop eating meat because humans/asura/norn have feelings and stuff.

Generally people would tell you to stop eating humans and norns. Don’t know why you’d eat an asura though, they don’t have much meat on them.