(edited by Kythan Myr.4719)
Will LS2 will live up to the expectations?
As long as we see the permanent opening up of new areas and nothing is a rehash of the last LS then I’ll be happy enough. Anything else will be a bonus.
Fire up the Hyperbowl ma, we’re going to town!
Would you like some hard cheeze with your sad whine?
Would you like some hard cheeze with your sad whine?
It WILL disappoint people.
I’m not saying that because I have a low opinion of ANet (though I do), but rather it’s because they’ve waited too long and dropped the wrong hints. Simply put, unless they give us an entire expansion on day 1, people will be kittened.
Beyond that, however, there are already signs that ANet is going to make a mess of the story. We know there’s another dragon that’s active now (we don’t know if it’s one of the known ones or a new one), and we know we’ll have to find it and deal with it. So we … are set up to follow some totally new character that they kitten-pulled at the last second. NOT track down ancient records and think it through. NOT take the initiative and start looking before it finds us. No, instead a new character is once again added to the lore to motivate us. It’s quite possible we’ve met Trahearne 2.0.
We’ve once again been set up to tag along behind the real main characters, and do all the heavy lifting for them. This isn’t a problem with just GW2, CoH ran into it a lot with the villain storylines and it was hard for them to work around it, but they got better at it over time.
There’s also the fact that (nearly) everyone will descend on the new content right away, creating huge clusters of players swarming any Open World parts of the story. The Devs will either have to balance it for the uber-zerg, or balance it for the more reasonable sized groups that will come after a few days of it being out. Either way, they’ll be unbalanced for the other group, resulting in disappointment.
So…yeah. Crash and burn on day one, at least for us. The really important question is: How will it go over in China?
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
It will not live up to the expectations, because most players set their expectations so high that unless the next Living Story incorporates Cantha and Elona, while killing three Elder Dragons and Trahearne . . .
It’s going to disappoint, and there will be rage posts about how horrible they are at writing and they fail at life and should quit development to live in a shack with Tycho and Gabe.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
It WILL disappoint people.
I’m not saying that because I have a low opinion of ANet (though I do), but rather it’s because they’ve waited too long and dropped the wrong hints. Simply put, unless they give us an entire expansion on day 1, people will be kittened.
Beyond that, however, there are already signs that ANet is going to make a mess of the story. We know there’s another dragon that’s active now (we don’t know if it’s one of the known ones or a new one), and we know we’ll have to find it and deal with it. So we … are set up to follow some totally new character that they kitten-pulled at the last second. NOT track down ancient records and think it through. NOT take the initiative and start looking before it finds us. No, instead a new character is once again added to the lore to motivate us. It’s quite possible we’ve met Trahearne 2.0.
We’ve once again been set up to tag along behind the real main characters, and do all the heavy lifting for them. This isn’t a problem with just GW2, CoH ran into it a lot with the villain storylines and it was hard for them to work around it, but they got better at it over time.
There’s also the fact that (nearly) everyone will descend on the new content right away, creating huge clusters of players swarming any Open World parts of the story. The Devs will either have to balance it for the uber-zerg, or balance it for the more reasonable sized groups that will come after a few days of it being out. Either way, they’ll be unbalanced for the other group, resulting in disappointment.
So…yeah. Crash and burn on day one, at least for us. The really important question is: How will it go over in China?
Yeah, I think we can definitely expect the following things:
1. Plot of “young adult novel” quality
2. Things breaking on day one
3. Patch 2 weeks later addressing the release problems, and possibly some other stuff
Personally, I don’t mind the Trahearne thing… it’s not like GW1 was any different. Rurik, Master Togo, Kormir… they were Trahearne way before it was cool.
“You’ll PAY to know what you really think.” ~ J. R. “Bob” Dobbs
No new race, no new profession. That’s what I find is a given. Many people throw these in because they want a new race or profession, but it has never been mentioned nor ever hinted at by ANet. In fact, they stated they don’t want to have a new profession until all current ones are in pristine condition and that new races will be extremely unlikely anytime soon.
Other than that, I’m hoping they’ve refine the lore and stories of the new map’s events and hearts to be fun and interesting and perhaps character-interactive, like mentioning race, profession, and position in the Personal Story.
1. This LS will be more like a true expansion at least when it’s complete.
3. There will be a new race.
4. There will be a new profession(s)
UNLESS we are getting these this year I’m quitting this game.
I do not play an MMO for the dev made story. If I wanted that, I would play a single player game like Witcher since they exceed storytelling in a huge factor.
I do not play MMOs – or games for that matter – either for zerging around events in an uncoordinated fashion that nobody can truly control. I want to be given a fair challenge in games and play with people who are serious about beating them.
We need more content tailored for small groups of people (dungeons, Guild vs guild, deathmatch arena) and more gameplay options/customization options (classes, weapons, races, new skill slots) since these are the heart of an MMO, instead of only having zerg vs zergs, be pve or pvp as we mostly have right now.
I have bought more gems than I should for flutes and whatevers in a game that has been almost 2 years without new character progression or new customization.
Yeah, I think we can definitely expect the following things:
1. Plot of “young adult novel” quality
2. Things breaking on day one
3. Patch 2 weeks later addressing the release problems, and possibly some other stuff
The second two are probably true because this is how things have gone for most of ANet releases. Even things in GW1 had issues, though I would be hard pressed to name them, I think there were a good number of bug fixes in early patches to a campaign. (Note the date, and remember it released April 28, 2005.)
So, without rancor at how they do it, we should probably expect it as a given since it’s normal for them to patch about two weeks behind things. Of course, with GW2 we’ve had rather quick sets of patches in the first couple days so there’s that.
Personally, I don’t mind the Trahearne thing… it’s not like GW1 was any different. Rurik, Master Togo, Kormir… they were Trahearne way before it was cool.
I’ve been saying that for a while now, though I find people give them more slack. Probably because the story was always centered around those NPCs.
Aside: Don’t forget Evennia and Vizier Khilbron, either. Especially the Vizier with his special skills nobody can get. (Cough, Caladbolg, cough)
Or they overlooked it because the story in GW1’s campaigns was pretty much “young adult” level also. Bear in mind, they do have a target of “Teen” with their rating, and there are ample notes of “young adult” books which are actually better than they appear from the first read.
Aside: Even Harry Potter had nothing special about it aside from a promise of things progressing in later books. It wasn’t til the third book you got stirrings of a more detailed storyline going on.
Honestly, some of the books I really enjoyed in the “young adult” section I can look back and really tear into as being terrible. Trying to aim the story at “young adults” means you can’t go as complex as things like Wheel of Time . . . you really are limited in what your scope is. You might be able to get as good as Timothy Zahn, but even that’s kind of pushing it.
Bottom line? We’re never going to reach a “suitably good” level of writing, or what those with adult sensibilities are going to set the bar at. What we will get is going to be better than Twilight, maybe better than Goosebumps, and likely never as good as The Lord of the Rings.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
It will not live up to the expectations, because most players set their expectations so high that unless the next Living Story incorporates Cantha and Elona, while killing three Elder Dragons and Trahearne . . .
It’s going to disappoint, and there will be rage posts about how horrible they are at writing and they fail at life and should quit development to live in a shack with Tycho and Gabe.
Actually there is a reason for this.
A-Net set the bar with GW1 incredible high. Maybe higher than GW2
is able to pass.
It’s in the system itself. In GW1 you are the hero, you mix your own group even with NpC’s. But you are limited to 8 people.
The Storys are told very beautiful and you attach to the Characters…. Jora as example.
In GW2 the Story writing, even with good will is low level.
It’s dumbed down for these days kids. It’s just build around laser guns, no skills and clashes of millions of peoples.
Your personal story means absolutely nothing and it doesn’t matter you contribute something or not. You could even be the janitor of Queen Jenna’s palace and wouldn’t reach anything because there would be millions other janitors who sweep the floors.
Mix that with the poor fight mechanics where fixed skills and pushing button #2 is enough, actually forbids a positive gaming experience.
LS2 will be very similar to LS1… maybe they get better Story writer or better whatever….
the problem will still be “here is the area where it happens and 200 people zerk huge groups of monsters or Huge bosses with million of HP and short timer ticking down”
It just lays in the game itself and i don’t see how they would fix that without changing a lot of the mechanics or instance groups with limited number of peoples.
So, what I am hearing mostly is that:
1. No, LS2 doesn’t have much of a chance to live up to the expectations.
2. People feel that it will just be a rehash of the same mechanics and plot outline as LS2 but with different characters.
3. This will not be an expansion and doubt remains that there will ever be a satisfying equivalent of one.
4. More GW1 lore ignored and more new lore added that doesn’t really mesh well
5. More gem-store stuff is definite
So what are your expectations of this patch in regards to content/lore?
What could ANET add/do for LS2 if it continues in the same format that would make it more successful in your eyes??
I only hope the new map/s aren’t as boring as the orr ones
What could ANET add/do for LS2 if it continues in the same format that would make it more successful in your eyes??
First, a more reasonable villain. NOT the dragon, but a dragon champion. They don’t pull resources and incredible feats out of their kitten-hole. They have people working under them, and even those people have their own plans and plots going on.
Second, a more likable villain. Not all of their underlings need to be likable, but they need to be someone we can talk to. Maybe even reason with on occasion, and they may divert us with reason as well. Heck, it would be great to get to know them BEFORE we find out they’re the Big Bad of the season. Make us, perhaps, a bit uneasy about having to face this person, because they ARE a person and not a faceless minion with a name and higher stats.
Third, the world needs to be moving outside of our party. There should be at least one other group of adventurers out there trying to do the same thing we’re doing. Sometimes we work with them, sometimes we work at odds with them. And while they’re technically on our side, that doesn’t mean they’re good. Some of them may be worse than the enemies we’re fighting, in their own way. Play with the morality of it.
Fourth, we need choices. Yes, I realize that this makes the storyline much harder to do/make, but the investment when you get to make real choices is astounding. And if they’re tough moral choices, all the better. And to be clear, the choices you face when choosing an order in the personal story are NOT important ones until the final one. Until then, every choice you make in that part of the storyline costs you nothing. Even the one moral sounding choice in the human storyline (disturb a dead person’s spirit, or infiltrate the pirates) turns out to be a case of grey/grey morality when that infiltration involves summoning the undead to attack them. Give us choices that matter, and give us reason to consider carefully.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
We could speculate, or we could just wait and see.
We could speculate, or we could just wait and see.
I prefer to speculate. That way, if LS2 flops, we can point back at our speculations and say: “We came up with that off the top of our heads after just a couple of days. You had MONTHS to come up with your very best. And you gave us … this.”
It’s one thing to say “I could come up with something better than that!”. It’s another thing when dozens of posters can PROVE they can (and did) come up with something better. If ANet wants to impress us, we need to show them the bar they have to aim for.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
We could speculate, or we could just wait and see.
I prefer to speculate. That way, if LS2 flops, we can point back at our speculations and say: “We came up with that off the top of our heads after just a couple of days. You had MONTHS to come up with your very best. And you gave us … this.”
It’s one thing to say “I could come up with something better than that!”. It’s another thing when dozens of posters can PROVE they can (and did) come up with something better. If ANet wants to impress us, we need to show them the bar they have to aim for.
Look, if I had the time I’d lay out an eight-season plotline going from the end of Scarlet through at least two other dragon targets and possibly into some regions for the nostalgia (northern Elona, the Far North, Ring of Fire) and brand new. I’d lay out actual changes to the world which would be permanent and force development over more than one season. I’d even set time aside for SAB (though probably not give it a definite timeline since it is VERY much a side project).
Do I think it’d be better than what ANet could come up with? I would like to think so. Do I think other people would like it as much as I would? Heck no they wouldn’t. It’d get raked over for tropes, cliches, predictability, and padding so much I’d feel it was a waste of time to even attempt it.
If you want to start having a place to drop ideas for that kind of thing then I’m all game for it. Though, I’ll also note there are a few differences between us and the ANet developers.
- We don’t have access to the people who can tell us whether the engine can handle something. Sure, we could plot out a big awesome battle against Jormag (or a higher Champion than the Claw of Jormag) but we can only guess at how much we could actually get away with in the game program.
- They decidedly have to be aware of what they add and how it affects everything else. Plotting out a change where, for instance, Kralkatorrik causes another Dragonbrand over known territory can severely alter existing regions and may cause necessary changes which aren’t desirable when they’re thrown together.
- They know what the budget is. I’m not meaning just money to throw for art and other assets, I’m talking about the time budget. There’s only so many person-hours available in a day to get something done and the more “awesome” something is . . . generally the more insane the requirement for people to get to work. I mean, unless you use pre-created things as a shortcut. (Dungeons of Eye of the North, I am looking at you and the semi-constantly repeating setpieces I recall.)
We could come up with awesome ideas, but I am hesitant to say they’d be feasible on top of actual work on the game core itself. (I doubt we’ll find many people who will claim there isn’t work required on that.)
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
That’s why, if you look at what I’m saying I want to see, you’ll notice it’s all small scale stuff. No mention made of big battles. No mention made of massive bosses or events. The most technically taxing part would be the branches required for the choices, and they’ve already proven they can do that in the Personal Story.
We’ve got big battles in the game already, and nobody cares about what they’re fighting. They care about the mechanics of the fight, or the loot they’re hoping to get, but not about the boss itself. Nobody has any real emotional attachment to the 3-worm or Teq. But there’s a boss elsewhere that makes a remark along the lines of “Tybalt says hello.” People want that kitten DEAD. One line, that’s all it takes, because what it says matters to the players due to personal emotional investment in a character.
That’s pretty much what everything I’ve said comes down to. It’s not about big battles or fancy outfits. It’s about giving us a reason to care about what’s happening. I know GW2’s system can handle that. The question is, can ANet’s writers deliver it?
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
Fourth, we need choices. Yes, I realize that this makes the storyline much harder to do/make, but the investment when you get to make real choices is astounding. And if they’re tough moral choices, all the better. And to be clear, the choices you face when choosing an order in the personal story are NOT important ones until the final one. Until then, every choice you make in that part of the storyline costs you nothing. Even the one moral sounding choice in the human storyline (disturb a dead person’s spirit, or infiltrate the pirates) turns out to be a case of grey/grey morality when that infiltration involves summoning the undead to attack them. Give us choices that matter, and give us reason to consider carefully.
I am sure developers curse Bioware under their breath every time someone mentions choices or branching story lines. Wonderful to play, but really hard to execute. The PS didn’t really dish out many serious consequences. What we got was an Order to belong to and a few NPCs in our home instance. Most of the decisions were along the lines of “do you want to go to Chicago by plane or train?” You went through a slightly different journey but ended up in the same place, with a different boarding pass.
The problem is that I don’t know how you make choices matter the way I want on an MMO. Voting in an election doesn’t really go as far as I’d like.
For what it’s worth, here is my example of how something might work. In one episode of the living story the players need the help of a grawl shaman to summon some spirit which can thwart dragon minions. Fortunately there are two such shamans in the area, one from the red tribe and one from the white. Players must choose one of these two tribes to ally with. Every now and then there is a siege event. Each tribe sends a shaman to attack the other’s temple. What follows is a tower defense game with each team trying to defend their ally’s temple as the shaman summons waves of creatures to attack with whatever anti-Zerg mechanic the devs think will work. Once one team’s temple falls the other team wins. The winner gets whatever the max reward is and the loser gets some percentage based on how long they lasted.
So, here is how consequences work. The game keeps track of how many wins each side has had and at the end of the update period the tribe which has had the most losses declares that their shaman has failed them and scatter. The other tribe becomes the dominant tribe in the area, and help in the next part of the story. But the grawl do not forget who took their side and will be actively hostile to those who opposed them. This makes it harder for players who chose the losing side in general, but is offset by some bonuses such as items sold by remnants of the defeated tribe, or access to secret passages.
So, anyone have a good idea on how to make choices matter in LS? It’s a path I’d like to see gw2 pursue, but I am not sure how feasible it would be.
I think so, after season 1 expectations can’t be all that high.
So, anyone have a good idea on how to make choices matter in LS? It’s a path I’d like to see gw2 pursue, but I am not sure how feasible it would be.
One of the big things they need to do is show us what happens for the choice we didn’t make.
Let’s say you have Hylek and Quaggans that both need help, and you have to pick who you’re going to race off to assist. Let us do that, and let us win, but THEN let us go to the other group, and see what happened to them. Are they dead? Corrupted? Do the survivors curse our name? Or did some other band of heroes come in and save them, setting them up as possible opponents later on when we clash with that group of heroes?
Look at the human storyline where you choose an order. At a couple of points, you’re faced with a choice. Save group A, or save group B. You make your choice, but you NEVER see the cost of that choice on the other group. You lose nothing by picking one over the other, there’s no cost to it at all. But what if you had to visit the group you didn’t save? If you saw the dead, and the Risen that you could have saved? What if you got to see your contact find someone they knew amongst the bodies? Would there be resentment? Regret?
You can’t make the choices matter in terms of game balance or rewards, at least not by much, or you’ll run into problems. So, the difference has to be an emotional one. And there should be no promise of a right and wrong choice, sometimes you don’t get that lucky. Destiny’s Edge had to make those choices (Logan: Save the queen or stay with DE? Eir: Press ahead without Logan, or pull back and lose the chance?) Now it should be our turn.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
You can’t make the choices matter in terms of game balance or rewards, at least not by much, or you’ll run into problems. So, the difference has to be an emotional one. And there should be no promise of a right and wrong choice, sometimes you don’t get that lucky. Destiny’s Edge had to make those choices (Logan: Save the queen or stay with DE? Eir: Press ahead without Logan, or pull back and lose the chance?) Now it should be our turn.
This is easy enough to do. Just trail it off the first choice which had any kind of impact on the Living Story – the vote for who sits on the Captain’s Council. It’s simple enough to move forward from that to something you can witness happening.
So we know we let Ellen Kiel win, and Evon Gnashblade has been nurturing sour grapes for a while now. Notably, without doing much other than trying to play spin doctor to make himself look good. And missing many opportunities to act to make himself look good.
I’ll paint a picture real fast, nice broad and sketchy strokes for now. Evon Gnashblade is implicated in the black market thing the Seraphs are looking into, and Ellen Kiel starts investigating, naturally enough. It’s treated as an internal matter for the Captains of Lion’s Arch and Evon is doing himself no favors by protesting Kiel is setting him up. (After all, it’s what he’d do.)
Then it comes to light there’s no truth in the connection, just someone holding a grudge against the Black Lion Trading Company. Evon gets his hackles up and goes rushing to deal with it, Ellen behind – she arrives later and waits for the PC backup to arrive before going in.
Only to find Evon about to metaphorically pull the trigger on the one responsible, who is acting confident and in control of the situation . . . revealing he was prepared for this and his followers pop out and start a battle. Evon takes his shot at his enemy, and fails to kill him but in turn is given fatal wounds. Ellen rushes to defend him so he can try to bind the wounds, while the players chase down the leader and he escapes through utilizing meat shields to block them off.
By the time the PC makes it back, one of the two is dead, and the other is shaken by this so much there’s a permanent shift of character. Ellen is conflicted and consumed in self-doubt since her preconceptions about Evon put this mess out of control . . . or Evon is stunned Ellen would defend him even though they don’t like each other, and promises to be a better Captain candidate for Lion’s Arch.
Either one bows out of the limelight for the time being to “think things over” while the person who got away left a trail which could be followed . . . probably into another ambush, but this time there’s a chance to prepare the pursuit so it’s ready rather than rushing off into the trap headfirst.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
The orgin of the tree people….. the mother tree, when it was a baby was planted by a human and a centuar ( as bazzar as it sounds ).