Guild Wars 2

thanks this will help me so much!!!

This has to be the best combat system i’ve encountered in a really long time

I’m really glad this helps you out.
=) I might update it though cause I feel as some information is missing. But this is the Basic Core of the combat system.

It’s really fun! Specially when you are doing Dungoens with a good Team.

I couldn’t have said it better, You are right on the money and thank you for your assistance, this is very helpful.

Bumping this thread so people can actually see it’s existant. lol

Control isn’t dodging…

Control is snares, walls, stuns, blocks, blind, etc.

Apathy.6430:

Control isn’t dodging…

Control is snares, walls, stuns, blocks, blind, etc.

I already mentioned some examples of “Control” Skills. =)
The reason Movement and Dodge is Considered “Control” because it helps you stay in Control over the enemy while in combat. The moment you take 1 hit, you lost control. So your goal is to stay in control while dealing Damage at the enemy. Making it difficult for the enemy to attk you while you are dealing Damage.

Also, “Block” is a Support Skill. Not Control. It’s used when you need to support yourself in combat. It doesnt effect the enemy’s movement, or alter it’s attks. It’s best used when you lost control over the fight and you need to quickly use it to “Support” yourself to buy time to think of ur next skill to use that can be under cooldown or what not.

Any reason why I cant edit my Topic anymore?
I want to bold certain words because Apathy’s feedback but now I cant?

ugh…

This is actually a really good thread. I feel like lots of people don’t understand how the combat works (complaining that every class is dps, oh-my-god-where-is-the-trinity, etc.), but this thread explains it in easy to understand language.

Hats off to you, sir.

In the end all you need is dodge, ress and auto attack and keep moving. So in large lines I agree with the OP.

But my problem with the combat system is that a lot of bosses just need you to move, dodge and ress and use skill 1 and 6. As much as the OP has a point, it also underlines for me why a number of people find the skill bar uninteresting. Not that all the other skills are pointless or useless….you just really don’t need em. And this means that creating a build isn’t as interesting as it could be.

Gehenna.3625:

In the end all you need is dodge, ress and auto attack and keep moving. So in large lines I agree with the OP.

But my problem with the combat system is that a lot of bosses just need you to move, dodge and ress and use skill 1 and 6. As much as the OP has a point, it also underlines for me why a number of people find the skill bar uninteresting. Not that all the other skills are pointless or useless….you just really don’t need em. And this means that creating a build isn’t as interesting as it could be.

Try running with PuGs.

Many are HORRIBLE at the game, and suddenly you need to squeeze everything you can out of those utility skills that have a way longer cooldown than they should.

Apathy.6430:

Gehenna.3625:

In the end all you need is dodge, ress and auto attack and keep moving. So in large lines I agree with the OP.

But my problem with the combat system is that a lot of bosses just need you to move, dodge and ress and use skill 1 and 6. As much as the OP has a point, it also underlines for me why a number of people find the skill bar uninteresting. Not that all the other skills are pointless or useless….you just really don’t need em. And this means that creating a build isn’t as interesting as it could be.

Try running with PuGs.

Many are HORRIBLE at the game, and suddenly you need to squeeze everything you can out of those utility skills that have a way longer cooldown than they should.

agreed, but that’s because they haven’t learned the basics. As soon as you have a decent team that isn’t a problem. The skills are obviously not balanced around idiot level.

And in the end your efforts in a PUG like that don’t really keep you from wiping usually so it’s a wasted effort at that point.

So either it’s pointless or boring

I almost made it through, but stopped at “There are NO BABYSITTERS”. Sorry, tanks and healers are not babysitters. Tanks are tanks; healers are healers. It’s actually pretty straightforward and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone needing a babysitter. And, by the way, anyone “reading the box” knew that which was factual in your post already.

I like what the OP is trying to do here, but I’m not entirely on board with the way the “basics” of the combat system have been described.

To me, the basics are more accurately described as:

- Mobility
- Awareness
- Support
- Damage

Mobility: you generally want to keep moving, while denying or controlling the ability of the opponent to do the same. Which leads to…

Awareness: you should have situational awareness. You should pay attention to your surroundings and use them to your advantage, as well as watch what the opponent is doing. Which affects…

Support: Bolster your allies and/or diminish your opponent in the most advantageous way available to you.

All of the above should maximize:

- Damage: Because death is the ultimate mitigation. And it’s the only way you’re actually going to win.

The problem with the Trinity model, as I see it, is that it fuses tactic to role and does so with such rigidity that combat becomes stale and rote.

There’s nothing wrong with the tactic of “tanking”. And it’s entirely possible to use that tactic in this game (I do it all the time). But it needs to be approached as one tool in a toolbox, rather than as a function to which one must stringently adhere.

Same goes with healing. Healing is only one way to mitigate damage. People who enjoy playing support (like me) should broaden their view on how to do that.

For example, while I have a distinct preference for support, my preferred means of delivering it has always been through proactive offense (debuff and control), with healing serving only as a back-up supplement. The idea being that I don’t need to heal, if the enemy isn’t doing any damage in the first place.

I don’t think i’ve ever seen a player stand there and complain that nobody is healing him or isn’t holding aggro. A lot of people just have a hard time reacting to a no-projectile, instant kill attack that the only way to really avoid is to put up a reflect if the champion is looking at you.

Or, using power/toughness/healing gear, which the no trinity crowd seems to hate.

This strikes me more as thinly veiled condescension towards other MMOs and players than a meaningful guide.

Gehenna.3625:

In the end all you need is dodge, ress and auto attack and keep moving. So in large lines I agree with the OP.

But my problem with the combat system is that a lot of bosses just need you to move, dodge and ress and use skill 1 and 6. As much as the OP has a point, it also underlines for me why a number of people find the skill bar uninteresting. Not that all the other skills are pointless or useless….you just really don’t need em. And this means that creating a build isn’t as interesting as it could be.

Have you done Dungoens? Or Solo Champions or Solo group events yourself?
I have, and I can tell you, all the utility skills and weapon skills I have used where all needed because if I didnt use Control/Support skills and do damage while moving and dodging, I would of been dead.

Control skills have saved me a lot, and so have support skills while I was fighting in tight situations. =) It’s exciting when you know what all your skills do and when and how to use them. Specially with weapon swaping in mind since when ur soloing tough fights where you have a huge possibility of dying if not played right, You want to have access to what ever skills you need at the right time and place.

To me, that alone makes the combat exciting.

However, zerging is never fun in my honest opinion. =(
For people like me, I try to avoid them cause they ruin the combat in any games really.

So in the end, kite kite kite til the cows come home…

digiowl.9620:

So in the end, kite kite kite til the cows come home…

More like, Dodge, Dodge, Move to evade attks. lol
While Damage, Control, Support to stay on your toes.

But you can call it kite? I guess?
I mean did you even read the entire post? o.O

As much as I’m in agreement with OP’s idea, and as much as I loathe “while staying in control” (this is purely a personal issue in phrasing. Don’t mind my dislike of it, but I mention it as I’ll elaborate with my own interpretation), this is mostly spot on.

Damage is damage. Its a pretty simple concept, and in its relation to GW2, its something that is intrinsic to every profession, every build, most skills,and ideally, is a main part of a build’s design.

Support is aptly named, and much more descriptive than “healing” as has been known. It exists not just in flat heals that have been a staple to holy trinity designs, but also as boons, rezzing, and basically whatever helps you/your team do the job better.

Control, is in two parts for me. Controlling movement, and controlling damage. Controlling movement is very much what OP mentioned, and will be a noticeable aspect of most pvp-type builds. Swiftness, teleports, crowd control (notice that control is right in there) are all examples of movement control.

Controlling damage, is what used to be mainly found on tanks and buffs from healers. In GW2, we find damage control in the form of blind, block, dodging, protection etc. If it lessens the impact you or your team takes, or avoids it all together, its good, you should have some, and its extremely helpful.

Now, can you push out flat heals? Of course you can. Can you build towards facetanking champion mobs? Definitely. Should you expect individual results to vary? Yes, and like ordering fast food based on how appetizing the pictures look, you probably won’t get what you expected.

In my interpretation of things, the better builds will have satisfying aspects of all three parts of the trifecta, and while I’d say most will specialize in a given focus, the contribution of all three to the build will be noticeable. For example, the Guardian popular Altruistic Healing build template. Assuming use of a Hammer and Staff, you’ll have sufficient damage, support via party-wide boons and healing (protection, might, Empower flat heals, etc) and control of both damage and movement (again, protection, Banish, Line of Warding etc). This balancing of concepts, or at least hitting those very arbitrary “effectiveness thresholds” is what I think will grant people the most mileage in their build building. Effectiveness thresholds in this sense refer to the point at which having that extra amount, or better utilizing your current damage/support/control will be more beneficial than adding those “points” somewhere else.

We have a new way of thinking about combat and group synergy, and would benefit as a whole be regarding it as such.

Ghotistyx.6942:

As much as I’m in agreement with OP’s idea, and as much as I loathe “while staying in control” (this is purely a personal issue in phrasing. Don’t mind my dislike of it, but I mention it as I’ll elaborate with my own interpretation), this is mostly spot on.

Damage is damage. Its a pretty simple concept, and in its relation to GW2, its something that is intrinsic to every profession, every build, most skills,and ideally, is a main part of a build’s design.

Support is aptly named, and much more descriptive than “healing” as has been known. It exists not just in flat heals that have been a staple to holy trinity designs, but also as boons, rezzing, and basically whatever helps you/your team do the job better.

Control, is in two parts for me. Controlling movement, and controlling damage. Controlling movement is very much what OP mentioned, and will be a noticeable aspect of most pvp-type builds. Swiftness, teleports, crowd control (notice that control is right in there) are all examples of movement control.

Controlling damage, is what used to be mainly found on tanks and buffs from healers. In GW2, we find damage control in the form of blind, block, dodging, protection etc. If it lessens the impact you or your team takes, or avoids it all together, its good, you should have some, and its extremely helpful.

Now, can you push out flat heals? Of course you can. Can you build towards facetanking champion mobs? Definitely. Should you expect individual results to vary? Yes, and like ordering fast food based on how appetizing the pictures look, you probably won’t get what you expected.

In my interpretation of things, the better builds will have satisfying aspects of all three parts of the trifecta, and while I’d say most will specialize in a given focus, the contribution of all three to the build will be noticeable. For example, the Guardian popular Altruistic Healing build template. Assuming use of a Hammer and Staff, you’ll have sufficient damage, support via party-wide boons and healing (protection, might, Empower flat heals, etc) and control of both damage and movement (again, protection, Banish, Line of Warding etc). This balancing of concepts, or at least hitting those very arbitrary “effectiveness thresholds” is what I think will grant people the most mileage in their build building. Effectiveness thresholds in this sense refer to the point at which having that extra amount, or better utilizing your current damage/support/control will be more beneficial than adding those “points” somewhere else.

We have a new way of thinking about combat and group synergy, and would benefit as a whole be regarding it as such.

You might be using certain terms slightly different than what I have presented, But in the end, we are both speaking the same language in some extent. =P

What’s important though is, You know how to play well based on the game’s mechanics. And to me, that’s why I made thos Post, to help those maybe new to game and would like to learn how things work so they can build their own strategies and play to their full capabilities of their class. =)

I think the combat system is deeper thn what we know. Chris whiteside alluded to in the ama. Im thinking we will see mehancs where we need to run through combo fields to cleanse conditions that would be required to finish a fight.

Regarding roles, i am a firm believer that everyone is responsible for their own survivablity. People need to learn to build some surv. Into their builds in some way. I also feel that those that are pure support or tanks are a detriment to the group rather than a compliment because the combat system doesnt afford you this luxary in terms of fight mechanics ad how much damage mobs deal. I do not care what anyone says, i have yet to see a tank specced guardian or warrior maintain hate. The bosses run all over the place. The control aspect of it is imprtant but oly if you are dishng out comperable dmg to that of your peers.

Purpose of a cleric or soldier in PvE isn’t to tank for others, its to trade off some(not all) of your DPS in exchange for survivability. The sets still have power, just not precision/crit damage neither of them are worth that much without the other.

A cleric who can stay in melee range will do about the same as a berserker who has to constantly interrupt their attack chain, or just outright stays at ranged.

cesmode.4257:

I think the combat system is deeper thn what we know. Chris whiteside alluded to in the ama. Im thinking we will see mehancs where we need to run through combo fields to cleanse conditions that would be required to finish a fight.

Regarding roles, i am a firm believer that everyone is responsible for their own survivablity. People need to learn to build some surv. Into their builds in some way. I also feel that those that are pure support or tanks are a detriment to the group rather than a compliment because the combat system doesnt afford you this luxary in terms of fight mechanics ad how much damage mobs deal. I do not care what anyone says, i have yet to see a tank specced guardian or warrior maintain hate. The bosses run all over the place. The control aspect of it is imprtant but oly if you are dishng out comperable dmg to that of your peers.

I didnt explain about “Combo Fields” and “Combo Finisher” because… Well..
This is “GW2’s Combat System 101”

=) It’s suppose to be the bare basics. lol I might add it as an Edit but I dont know if I want my post to be longer than it already is.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Gehenna.3625:

In the end all you need is dodge, ress and auto attack and keep moving. So in large lines I agree with the OP.

But my problem with the combat system is that a lot of bosses just need you to move, dodge and ress and use skill 1 and 6. As much as the OP has a point, it also underlines for me why a number of people find the skill bar uninteresting. Not that all the other skills are pointless or useless….you just really don’t need em. And this means that creating a build isn’t as interesting as it could be.

Have you done Dungoens? Or Solo Champions or Solo group events yourself?
I have, and I can tell you, all the utility skills and weapon skills I have used where all needed because if I didnt use Control/Support skills and do damage while moving and dodging, I would of been dead.

Control skills have saved me a lot, and so have support skills while I was fighting in tight situations. =) It’s exciting when you know what all your skills do and when and how to use them. Specially with weapon swaping in mind since when ur soloing tough fights where you have a huge possibility of dying if not played right, You want to have access to what ever skills you need at the right time and place.

To me, that alone makes the combat exciting.

However, zerging is never fun in my honest opinion. =(
For people like me, I try to avoid them cause they ruin the combat in any games really.

Yep, I’ve done all dungeons. And most of the time it’s just about movement. The only reason I use other spells is because auto attack is boring and there’s cd’s. There are a couple of places where I use condition removal, but it doesn’t get more complicated than that.

In a lot of cases though the boss fights are about auto attack, dodge and ress team mates. Nothing more was required to win the fight. I do like to use clones on my mesmer so I do use those. So hey, then I’ll use 3 skills and the self heal. Almost half of em.

Still not really impressed. There are a couple of exceptions but most boss fights are running around auto attacking. dodging one shotting or 10000 red circles on the ground. From a skill bar point of view it’s not difficult. It’s just avoiding damage and dealing it in between. Standard kiting stuff. Only difference is that everybody has to do kiting since there is no tank/heal combo to keep the boss busy.

Gehenna.3625:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Gehenna.3625:

In the end all you need is dodge, ress and auto attack and keep moving. So in large lines I agree with the OP.

But my problem with the combat system is that a lot of bosses just need you to move, dodge and ress and use skill 1 and 6. As much as the OP has a point, it also underlines for me why a number of people find the skill bar uninteresting. Not that all the other skills are pointless or useless….you just really don’t need em. And this means that creating a build isn’t as interesting as it could be.

Have you done Dungoens? Or Solo Champions or Solo group events yourself?
I have, and I can tell you, all the utility skills and weapon skills I have used where all needed because if I didnt use Control/Support skills and do damage while moving and dodging, I would of been dead.

Control skills have saved me a lot, and so have support skills while I was fighting in tight situations. =) It’s exciting when you know what all your skills do and when and how to use them. Specially with weapon swaping in mind since when ur soloing tough fights where you have a huge possibility of dying if not played right, You want to have access to what ever skills you need at the right time and place.

To me, that alone makes the combat exciting.

However, zerging is never fun in my honest opinion. =(
For people like me, I try to avoid them cause they ruin the combat in any games really.

Yep, I’ve done all dungeons. And most of the time it’s just about movement. The only reason I use other spells is because auto attack is boring and there’s cd’s. There are a couple of places where I use condition removal, but it doesn’t get more complicated than that.

In a lot of cases though the boss fights are about auto attack, dodge and ress team mates. Nothing more was required to win the fight. I do like to use clones on my mesmer so I do use those. So hey, then I’ll use 3 skills and the self heal. Almost half of em.

Still not really impressed. There are a couple of exceptions but most boss fights are running around auto attacking. dodging one shotting or 10000 red circles on the ground. From a skill bar point of view it’s not difficult. It’s just avoiding damage and dealing it in between. Standard kiting stuff. Only difference is that everybody has to do kiting since there is no tank/heal combo to keep the boss busy.

Well, No offense but if you where doing dungoens with me and all you did was auto attk, I wouldnt be partying with you. =( Cause I actually use all my skills when I need them to contribute. I dont use them just because “im bored”.

You are contributing less if all you do is spam skills and auto attk.
You are right that movement and dodging is key but if you are not contributing in coordination of Control & Support then replacement might be in consideration. =(

Well no. In a lot of cases, doing anything other than 1 for damage is sub-optimal and really is just for fun.

Like on my Elementalist, Dragon’s claw beats every D/D attack on single target, to the point where i’m actually hurting myself by using anything other than Flame Grab on a single champion.

Churning earth might seem like a huge hitter but in the time it takes to go off I could have done 7 Dragon Claws.

Good for AoEing. Just not very good for fighting a single enemy.

cesmode.4257:

i have yet to see a tank specced guardian or warrior maintain hate

It would be nice to discuss the enemy/boss hate a little more. It is very apparent in several where a skilled “tanky” character is able to maintain hate. This mechanic isn’t necessarily popular knowledge, but it definitely exists and knowledge of it seems to be fairly broken up. I know that my small guild makes use of this mechanic, or at least has seen this mechanic in action and has then had to deal with it/take advantage of it.

In another thread I mentioned how in Twilight Arbour, the Vine boss (and Vine adds) will give what seems like 100% of their full attention to a high toughness staff Guardian (who then “tanks” by avoiding the AoE attacks). Then after that, the Spider boss in the same dungeon will give what seems like 100% of it’s attention to that same Guardian (this time wielding a hammer). Both of these bosses appear to give this particular Guardian 100% of their attacks, until the Guardian is either dead on the ground or has left the area and ran off the boss (a tactic that my guild uses in those fights when all the Guardian’s defensive cool downs and endurance has been depleted). Note: in the case of the Vine, the Guardian is doing near zero damage, but still has 100% of the boss’s hate.

I’ve heard theories that the amount of toughness can be a factor into boss hate, as well as whether or not they are ranged or not, or even if they are giving out lots of boons/conditions or dealing damage.

Boss hate is definitely not “GW2 Combat 101”, more so GW2 Combat 201. But it would be nice to at the very least acknowledge this mechanic, and at best explain this mechanic in detail.

CC Meinke.2749:

Raine.1394:

I almost made it through, but stopped at “There are NO BABYSITTERS”. Sorry, tanks and healers are not babysitters. Tanks are tanks; healers are healers.

This is true, please refrain from using that phrase since it might be insulting for other players. It just causes arguments and a bad mood in the community.

Thanks for your understanding.

Greetings

Does this post make any sense? I’m assuming that the quote your referring to is “There are NO BABYSITTERS” and honestly I find it insulting. If that’s not what your referring to then that’s even more puzzling. In fact I find that OPs entire thread is a bait/trolling. So the question is why hit on the guy who repeats a phrase that is repetitive in the threads opening post? I don’t understand why this thread isn’t already closed. Since it’s a blatantly OBVIOUS troll thread.

So what if someone wants to go full TANK, someone wants to go full DPS, whether there is BABYSITTER or not is irrelevant. Maybe people like playing as those type of characters.

ANET <- Made it possible to play this way, and it is not the new player who is at fault but the lack of direction given to the new player.

Also I find the thread to be a little naive, I mean we invest in traits to which they perform certain actions and improve various functions be they DPS or what have you. To expect everyone to chose TOUGHNESS + VITALITY and then one other stat is ridiculous. Because that’s pretty much what your saying.

Control is not dodging or movement. Control is the ability to maintain a target, by knockdown, moa, ect,. Dodging and movement are mitigation.

As far as Damage goes, your talking about the difference if I got full DPS of 10,000+ or 3,000. So why not people specialize and make up for other peoples lack of abilities by grouping.

Is that not why we group? We group to fill in the gaps in our capabilities. Not to zerg content.

Maybe the problem isn’t what you list but Anets failure to show players abilities in a defined LFG system. So we can see who is support who is tough, who is dps. I don’t blame the player but Anet’s lack of foresight.

If we had a system that allow us to see each players traits, we’d be able to form groups that are more efficient. Rather than depend upon the player to have learned a system not taught to the by the game they play but rather through message boards.

Thank you for your understanding of course.

Yeah, I’m not sure how enemy target acquisition actually works, but it does seem that toughness is pretty high on that priority list.

@ Volomon

This thread is NOT a Troll/bait.
It’s an educational thread to help newbies and players who other wise new and might not know the Combat System and 3 Basic Combat mechanics in GW2. That is why it’s called “GW2 Combat System 101”.

I am an experience player who have done all sorts of contents.
From Soloing "Group Events,’ “Soloing Champions”, to playing in a “5 man Dungoen Party” and double teaming with a friend to tackel bigger challenges while experimenting each classes we play.

I’m the type of player who enjoys playing all my classes to it’s full capabilities by experimenting different strategy builds while enjoying helping others by teaching them things I know. If I was trolling, I wouldn’t have helped many people ingame or post this thread.

I’m sorry you failed to understand my thread and I hope you find another thread that has a subject for your own Interest.

@ Surbrus
I also found Turrets as an Engineer tend to get massive Hate. Specially Net Turrets since they immobilize enemies. Though I havn’t completely grasp the Hate mechanic just yet, I do agree that it’s definantly NOT a “GW2 Combat System 101” subject since it’s more of an advance level.

Also I didnt put any info on “Combo Fields” or “Combo Finisher” because Those I feel will be for Advanced play. This thread is really for the Basics. But I guess I’ll think about editing it in? Like I said before, I dont know if I want this thread to be longer.

If you guys want, you can explain how it works on this thread though. Feel free to comment. =)

I agree in principle with most of this, though I would beg to differ on the control thing, but it’s mostly about semantics, and it’s worthless to debate about such things. So the comment below is not an argument, but rather my personal opinion which you may freely disagree with.

In short, I just don’t believe that the goal of "control is “not getting hit”, because some professions can take hits better than others. I run in circles with ranged damage around dangerous melee combatants, and even then try to sneak in a few melee hits when I can (when blocks/aegis are recharged with Guardian.) But I see no reason to run all the time at melee range, as you will be hit anyway at such short range. Add to this the mess that some big battles can be (I almost can’t see my character, and have to rely on my damage numbers to see where I am), and moving while on melee range seems counter-intuitive. Thus, not running/evading all the time is not playing badly (“losing control” because you got hit), it all depends on your profession, build, gear, and encounter at hand (plus evading has to be done wisely, since it’s limited by stamina-better be hit by semi strong attacks than by the huge attack.)

That said, I agree there’s no role at all, and there’s no reason you shouldn’t experiment with uncommon builds/traits/gear that may favor your particular playstyle, rather than doing what everybody else does because it’s supposed to be “effective”. I also dislike how some people are bent into believing that, since there’s no trinity, DPS is all that matters-not at all, and not what ANet intended (basically, it’s like saying that tanks and healers are dead, but not so DPS, so now there is only one role: “DPS”-which is a false conclusion, since there’s so much to do besides dealing damage, as discussed by the OP and many posters above.)

(I also don’t believe in damage/support/control as an alternate trinity, as the 3 will on many ocassions overlap each other, even on a single party member-I think that’s what the OP is getting at in any case. Being mostly “support” doesn’t mean that you won’t be able to damage the enemy either-something that most DPS-lovers would do well to understand.)

Star Ace.5207:

But I see no reason to run all the time at melee range, as you will be hit anyway at such short range.

Circle strafing in melee range reduces damage taken by anywhere from 50% to 100%, depending on the fight.

AC SM for instance, most of the big bads can be almost entirely negated by simply circling them.

Star Ace.5207:

I agree in principle with most of this, though I would beg to differ on the control thing, but it’s mostly about semantics, and it’s worthless to debate about such things. So the comment below is not an argument, but rather my personal opinion which you may freely disagree with.

In short, I just don’t believe that the goal of "control is “not getting hit”, because some professions can take hits better than others. I run in circles with ranged damage around dangerous melee combatants, and even then try to sneak in a few melee hits when I can (when blocks/aegis are recharged with Guardian.) But I see no reason to run all the time at melee range, as you will be hit anyway at such short range. Add to this the mess that some big battles can be (I almost can’t see my character, and have to rely on my damage numbers to see where I am), and moving while on melee range seems counter-intuitive. Thus, not running/evading all the time is not playing badly (“losing control” because you got hit), it all depends on your profession, build, gear, and encounter at hand (plus evading has to be done wisely, since it’s limited by stamina-better be hit by semi strong attacks than by the huge attack.)

That said, I agree there’s no role at all, and there’s no reason you shouldn’t experiment with uncommon builds/traits/gear that may favor your particular playstyle, rather than doing what everybody else does because it’s supposed to be “effective”. I also dislike how some people are bent into believing that, since there’s no trinity, DPS is all that matters-not at all, and not what ANet intended (basically, it’s like saying that tanks and healers are dead, but not so DPS, so now there is only one role: “DPS”-which is a false conclusion, since there’s so much to do besides dealing damage, as discussed by the OP and many posters above.)

(I also don’t believe in damage/support/control as an alternate trinity, as the 3 will on many ocassions overlap each other, even on a single party member-I think that’s what the OP is getting at in any case. Being mostly “support” doesn’t mean that you won’t be able to damage the enemy either-something that most DPS-lovers would do well to understand.)

There are some single skills that do “Damage/Control” or “Support/Control” or all 3 at the same time.

For example:
Ranger uses a Shortbow Skill3 that does “Damage” but also evades by rolling backwards for staying in “Control” while giving your the Swiftness Effect for faster movement speed as "Support.

So yes, Certain Skills can do all 3 and if this is what you mean by “overlap” then I think I understand what you are getting at.

I also agree that you’ll always take hits, “Lose Control”, wether you are Meele or Ranged, however, Movement and Dodge in both Meele and Ranged Weapons can reduce tons of damage since Positioning is key

I have used lots of Meele attks on certain enemies without ever taking 1 hit only because I was Moving around attking enemy’s blind sides and Dodging away from bigger attks or adjusting my position between me and the enemy Close Range.

Even though in bigger chaotic battle field, [Movement] and [Dodge] helps you evade tons of attks, which means you’ll reduce the amount of possible damage you take even if you do take hits.

The Control Mechanic is to help you stay in Control over the enemy.
Look at what Control “Skills” do for a sec:

Control = Movement, Dodge, Cripple, Daze, Stun, Knowckback, Knowckdown, Pull Blind, Immobilize, etc.

This is important since it helps you alter the enemy’s movements and attks, Making it extremely difficult for the enemy to attk you

While Support Helps you take the upper advantage using buffs to increase your performance different ways. Take a look at this for a sec:

Support = Heal, Protect, Mighty, Swiftness, Fury, Block, Regen, Invulnerability, Retaliation, etc.

And of course, we all know how important it is to contribute dealing Damage!

I’m not disagreeing with you entirely, I’m just trying to explain what I am trying to present.
Either way, Playing effectivly is taking advantage of your class’s full capabilities and knowing how to stay on your toes with these 3 mechanics in mind. Even if you dont agree with the terms being used, As long as you know what you are doing in combat, that’s all it matters really. This is just to help people who need it. =)

looks at thread feels forced to pop someone’s bubble

While there may not be a normal “trinity” it isn’t too difficult to run a warrior as a tank and a guardian as a heal/support for the warrior which allows 3 full DPS people to melt w/e the target is. We have been doing that since headstart … just sayin. Of course that is ranged DPS not melee … don’t get me wrong glass cannon warriors are a blast to watch as they die.

Just a Mesmer perspective after almost 1,200 hours with the same group. Your mileage will no doubt vary.

leprekan.7248:

looks at thread feels forced to pop someone’s bubble

While there may not be a normal “trinity” it isn’t too difficult to run a warrior as a tank and a guardian as a heal/support for the warrior which allows 3 full DPS people to melt w/e the target is. We have been doing that since headstart … just sayin. Of course that is ranged DPS not melee … don’t get me wrong glass cannon warriors are a blast to watch as they die.

Just a Mesmer perspective after almost 1,200 hours with the same group. Your mileage will no doubt vary.

A Glass cannon Tank would only end up dying if he/she decides to stand still, and intentionally soak damage for no other reason but to soak damage.
I dont find it “Fun” to watch my team mates die when in dungoens.
And I definantly wont revive someone who intentionally gets himself killed either.

Tanking just doesnt work. I’ve done it with people who try it, making it difficult for us to run dungoens smoothly, and I’ve done it with a group of people who actually tries to coordinate Suppot/Control while contributing in damage with the Team which really results in a much smoother Dungoen experience.

Same with A Healer/Support build. If you dont try to contribute in dealing “Damage”, then the enemies will only take longer to kill. Contributing is important with in a team. Sure, in Dynamic Events or WvW groups of people zerging, shouldnt be a problem. But when doing Dungoens and soloing champions, good luck.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

leprekan.7248:

looks at thread feels forced to pop someone’s bubble

While there may not be a normal “trinity” it isn’t too difficult to run a warrior as a tank and a guardian as a heal/support for the warrior which allows 3 full DPS people to melt w/e the target is. We have been doing that since headstart … just sayin. Of course that is ranged DPS not melee … don’t get me wrong glass cannon warriors are a blast to watch as they die.

Just a Mesmer perspective after almost 1,200 hours with the same group. Your mileage will no doubt vary.

A Glass cannon Tank would only end up dying if he/she decides to stand still, and intentionally soak damage for no other reason but to soak damage.
I dont find it “Fun” to watch my team mates die when in dungoens.
And I definantly wont revive someone who intentionally gets himself killed either.

Tanking just doesnt work. I’ve done it with people who try it, making it difficult for us to run dungoens smoothly, and I’ve done it with a group of people who actually tries to coordinate Suppot/Control while contributing in damage with the Team which really results in a much smoother Dungoen experience.

Same with A Healer/Support build. If you dont try to contribute in dealing “Damage”, then the enemies will only take longer to kill. Contributing is important with in a team. Sure, in Dynamic Events or WvW groups of people zerging, shouldnt be a problem. But when doing Dungoens and soloing champions, good luck.

So you think in the 1,200 hours we have been doing this we haven’t run into a dungeon or a champion? Arrogant much? I was pointing out an obvious … your way is not the only way. Btw, a “tank” spec warrior still does average DPS because that class is so “balanced”.

You are an Engineer right? Soloing a champion because your turrets are doing the tanking is not something to brag about. Aside from the obvious of why would anyone want to spend the time to solo a champion when they drop next to nothing … why even bring it up?

The combat mechanics in this game leave a lot to be desired. I have honestly never felt this limited in a game when it came to builds since everything is tied to the weapon I am using. But it is what it is.

Want to give solid advice to new people? Leave them with this … don’t think in terms of what your skillbar does for you … think in terms of what the collective skillbars do for the group. Map the R key to your dodge roll .. you will look like a pro even when you oops and hit it

leprekan.7248:

Want to give solid advice to new people? Leave them with this … don’t think in terms of what your skillbar does for you … think in terms of what the collective skillbars do for the group. Map the R key to your dodge roll .. you will look like a pro even when you oops and hit it

I prefer Shift.

Don’t even have to move my fingers as my pinky naturally rests on shift from it being sprint in all other games.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Well, No offense but if you where doing dungoens with me and all you did was auto attk, I wouldnt be partying with you. =( Cause I actually use all my skills when I need them to contribute. I dont use them just because “im bored”.

You are contributing less if all you do is spam skills and auto attk.
You are right that movement and dodging is key but if you are not contributing in coordination of Control & Support then replacement might be in consideration. =(

No offence taken, since I know you are just assuming things here. The GS auto attack for mesmer does more damage reliably then any other skill in a GS/Staff build. I just drop a couple of clones and go auto attack. It’s the best I can do for damage.

I also specifically talk about boss encounters and not the whole dungeon. That’s another mistake in your reasoning. Some thrash mobs are tougher fights than bosses. Also an interesting point. But still I believe that dodging damage and ressing quickly is far more efficient than any control/support skills you might add.

This is because most boss fights have very simply mechanics and are imbalanced due to one shot skills and a gazillion hp/toughness rating making boss fights boring.

It’s just the way it works. And trust me, I did fine in dungeons. Runs were generally very smooth. But it’s the set up that makes most of the skills unneeded. I could cast a skill that makes everybody in the area attack faster for 10 seconds but then the cooldown is over 3 minutes. It barely makes a dent in the bosses hp. So why bother?

I can cast it. I can use it, but it doesn’t really make a noticeable difference. That’s the point. At least half of the skills hardly make a difference because they are not needed. Just move, dodge and ress.

You should really add LoS (line of sight) to your OP, because I don’t see enough people use it enough and it is one of the most useful tools in your arsenal especially if you are being focused. If you see a rock or pillar, basically any object in the world you can hide behind it to get that damage off you.

Also, always have a ranged set on you. Some bosses are specifically designed for ranged. Like the boss in CM where a bunch of rangers are up top and you have to hide behind the door and range him down, when I was still newish to the game this hurt me bad because I did a bunch of fights just standing there and reviving team mates because I thought GW2 said “play your way” but the truth is, ALWAYS have a range set on you.

Slightly off topic but I feel it’s an important part of combat.

Combat is not just range or just melee, it’s both, although you’ll never find a mob that favors melee.

Gehenna.3625:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Well, No offense but if you where doing dungoens with me and all you did was auto attk, I wouldnt be partying with you. =( Cause I actually use all my skills when I need them to contribute. I dont use them just because “im bored”.

You are contributing less if all you do is spam skills and auto attk.
You are right that movement and dodging is key but if you are not contributing in coordination of Control & Support then replacement might be in consideration. =(

No offence taken, since I know you are just assuming things here. The GS auto attack for mesmer does more damage reliably then any other skill in a GS/Staff build. I just drop a couple of clones and go auto attack. It’s the best I can do for damage.

I also specifically talk about boss encounters and not the whole dungeon. That’s another mistake in your reasoning. Some thrash mobs are tougher fights than bosses. Also an interesting point. But still I believe that dodging damage and ressing quickly is far more efficient than any control/support skills you might add.

This is because most boss fights have very simply mechanics and are imbalanced due to one shot skills and a gazillion hp/toughness rating making boss fights boring.

It’s just the way it works. And trust me, I did fine in dungeons. Runs were generally very smooth. But it’s the set up that makes most of the skills unneeded. I could cast a skill that makes everybody in the area attack faster for 10 seconds but then the cooldown is over 3 minutes. It barely makes a dent in the bosses hp. So why bother?

I can cast it. I can use it, but it doesn’t really make a noticeable difference. That’s the point. At least half of the skills hardly make a difference because they are not needed. Just move, dodge and ress.

This brings to my mind that the game is tuned around sPVP, not WvW/PVE. And to compensate for that in PVE Anet chose the simple way and upped the body count or bulk of the encounters, rather than attempt to do an AI that could mimic a PVP encounter.

And when i say tuned around sPVP i mean that everything is set up so that encounters are quick, and the tide of the fight can flip in an instant. This to produce exiting, always on the edge experiences for onlookers in a esport setting.

The only things needed in pve here are damage and awareness. Well and a little knowledge about how mobs think (generally speaking, exploiting game mechanics in a legal way)
There is good amount of self-targeted control. But thats it, and real control is not just about that. If in gw1 you could take a melee destroyer build against heavy melee boss, caster hate against caster boss etc in gw2 nothing of that exists. You just come and do damage.
Bosses in dungeons are so overstatted in health and resists that most of the time sacrificing even a bit of damage for more control is just slowing yourself down. As long as you have that awareness.
As for support – in this game it is broken. It does not have a solid foundation. Instead it comes in some small pieces here and there, with almost no distinction between support and utility.
For example. A so called support-focused ele. Boons, heals, removes conditions. But, again – limited to 5 allies – makes sense there are 5 man parties. So at least one of 5 people in party is sacrificing damage for support. And lets see where is goes in game:
You need to stay together to benefit from support fully – but you need to spread from boss damage
You want to heal people – but they must stay away from damage
You want to save that guy who just misdodged and got hit for half hp – but you don’t have directs heals or boons to give him.
That is exactly what happens to support later in game, exactly what happened to me.
You come in and say – ill be support. It works wonders at start, but then people start to dodge, hide, move. Start to bring self-boons. And you turn from a pug-savior you were into a “we don’t have enough damage”.
A minor investment into utility on a more or less glassy but CANNON on every party member is by far better that one person dedicated to that.
A simple calculation – you need to be able to maintain crazy amounts of might and fury on whole party to compensate your damage loss on support oriented build. Most likely you don’t even have to be in a support build to give those boons out. Than why roll one?
Sadly, in terms of contribution, the best support for any kind of pve in almost any situation is a zero support investment engi. 24 stacks of vuln 24/7 beats everything.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

GW2’s Combat System is based on:
Damage/Control/Support

Also known as “DPS/Tanking/Healing”, just under a different light? Lol.

Thought so!

When is “Taunt” skill being added again? lol.

leprekan.7248:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

leprekan.7248:

looks at thread feels forced to pop someone’s bubble

While there may not be a normal “trinity” it isn’t too difficult to run a warrior as a tank and a guardian as a heal/support for the warrior which allows 3 full DPS people to melt w/e the target is. We have been doing that since headstart … just sayin. Of course that is ranged DPS not melee … don’t get me wrong glass cannon warriors are a blast to watch as they die.

Just a Mesmer perspective after almost 1,200 hours with the same group. Your mileage will no doubt vary.

A Glass cannon Tank would only end up dying if he/she decides to stand still, and intentionally soak damage for no other reason but to soak damage.
I dont find it “Fun” to watch my team mates die when in dungoens.
And I definantly wont revive someone who intentionally gets himself killed either.

Tanking just doesnt work. I’ve done it with people who try it, making it difficult for us to run dungoens smoothly, and I’ve done it with a group of people who actually tries to coordinate Suppot/Control while contributing in damage with the Team which really results in a much smoother Dungoen experience.

Same with A Healer/Support build. If you dont try to contribute in dealing “Damage”, then the enemies will only take longer to kill. Contributing is important with in a team. Sure, in Dynamic Events or WvW groups of people zerging, shouldnt be a problem. But when doing Dungoens and soloing champions, good luck.

So you think in the 1,200 hours we have been doing this we haven’t run into a dungeon or a champion? Arrogant much? I was pointing out an obvious … your way is not the only way. Btw, a “tank” spec warrior still does average DPS because that class is so “balanced”.

You are an Engineer right? Soloing a champion because your turrets are doing the tanking is not something to brag about. Aside from the obvious of why would anyone want to spend the time to solo a champion when they drop next to nothing … why even bring it up?

The combat mechanics in this game leave a lot to be desired. I have honestly never felt this limited in a game when it came to builds since everything is tied to the weapon I am using. But it is what it is.

Want to give solid advice to new people? Leave them with this … don’t think in terms of what your skillbar does for you … think in terms of what the collective skillbars do for the group. Map the R key to your dodge roll .. you will look like a pro even when you oops and hit it

It’s not my way, its the combat mechanics and my experience with it. I’m giving people knowledge of how the mechanics work and how they can take advantage of it.

Also, keep in mind, playing for 1000000 Hours doesnt mean a player is good or bad. It only shows how long you have been ingame. I seen players in other games who played for soo long and yet, they arnt even close to good or knowledgable as others who spend less or the same amount of time.

I bring up Soloing champions because it is FUN to challenge yourself and your capabilities in succeeding in the fight that is designed for group content. The fact of knowing what ur skills do and how to take full advantage of them as a player makes it enjoyable to challenge yourself this way and of course, “Other ways” as well.

After all For some people, Challenging yourself is “Fun” and I bring this up mainly because to prove a point that knowing this knowledge and experience proves it works well. I have seen many people spec for tank and die in Dungoens. Those are people I avoid now a days because of my recent success without those soo called “Tanks”.

If you like to soak damage for fun, great! Go ahead!

But note that this isnt a trinity based game. The Combat mechanics allows you to do Damage/Control/Support very effectivly without limitations. You only limit youself by forcing the trinity into the system.

Snowy.9580:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

GW2’s Combat System is based on:
Damage/Control/Support

Also known as “DPS/Tanking/Healing”, just under a different light? Lol.

Thought so!

When is “Taunt” skill being added again? lol.

DPS/Tank/Healer

Tanking = soaking damage and reying on your armor/trait defense and keeping agro
Healing = Healing… The party to make sure of party’s survival
DPS = just focusing on Damaging till enemy is dead.

Usually designed for class specific characters.

Damage/Control/Support

Damage = Dealing damage
Control = Making it difficut for enemy to attk: Knowckback, Immobilize, Cripple, etc.
Support = Helps you with survival such as healing, and buffing skills as well as Blocking

Similar to ARPG games, where 1 character needs to apply all 3 in combat to be self effeciant while coordinating attks and skills. Kinda like StarOcean as an example.

And boy.. do I LOVE StarOcean! =P

Damag

People tend to forget to start from the beginning.
To be successful, what do you need?
You need to be able to do damage. You need to be able to increase your damage on demand to do enough of it.
You need to be able to avoid damage. You need to be able to reduce damage you cannot avoid. You need to be able to outheal the damage that gets through.
From this point of view, almost any build of any class in gw2 is perfect. Sadly, only for as long as only one person is considered.

Not sure why some people are acting like you have to sacrifice damage to do support/control and that it is somehow detrimental.

Damage is almost entirely based on armor. Traits, for many classes, make only a small difference. On that same note, support and control come mostly from runes, sigils, and traits.

Yes, people trying to ONLY support or control are generally going to fail hard. Healing Power, I’m looking at you. Healing Power in it’s current state is nothing but a detriment to the game and serves as a noob trap.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

I have seen many people spec for tank and die in Dungoens. Those are people I avoid now a days because of my recent success without those soo called “Tanks”.

If you like to soak damage for fun, great! Go ahead!

But note that this isnt a trinity based game. The Combat mechanics allows you to do Damage/Control/Support very effectivly without limitations. You only limit youself by forcing the trinity into the system.

I’m going to bite and call BS on this one. Sorry, but you’ve obviously just been with some horrible players. The ‘trinity system’ is still alive and well in Guild Wars 2 despite arguments to the contrary. People naturally fall into healing, tanking or DPS categories simply because that’s the way you have to build your characters. You can try to be ‘well rounded’ about it, but ultimately you just end up useless in all categories.

To use your own argument, tanks. Let’s say for the sake of argument that these players were indeed properly built to tank. Now let’s assume that someone who’s not built ‘tanky’ gets hit by the same attacks. Who’s going to fare better? The fact is your ‘tanks’ were probably letting themselves get hit because they thought armour is all they need to survive. In other words, they had no skill.

I have several characters, and I’ve played around with a lot of builds. My ‘tank’ is built like a fortress with decent healing, and strong vitality and toughness. I can march through a hail of arrows with barely a scratch and survive some of the most powerful attacks in the game. But, do I ignore that red targeting cursor? Do I walk into the jaws of oblivion? Heck no! I dodge, I fight and I throw up every defensive skill in the book, because thats how you win!

Generally my groups appreciate that I can take the hits and keep the mobs attention, because it gives them the space they need to unload their attacks without constantly worrying about their own survival.

There’s an old phrase which is pertinent to this game. Jack of all trades, master of none. You can try and be everything at once and fail horribly, or you can play to your strengths and succeed. Not every class was built equal, so why treat them as such?

digiowl.9620:

This brings to my mind that the game is tuned around sPVP, not WvW/PVE. And to compensate for that in PVE Anet chose the simple way and upped the body count or bulk of the encounters, rather than attempt to do an AI that could mimic a PVP encounter.

And when i say tuned around sPVP i mean that everything is set up so that encounters are quick, and the tide of the fight can flip in an instant. This to produce exiting, always on the edge experiences for onlookers in a esport setting.

I totally agree with you. In PvP, and even to some degree in WvW, the skill bar is much more interesting. A number of the skills I would never use in PvE are actually quite useful in PvP. Where in PvP some of these skills are very powerful, in PvE they barely make a difference.

So yes, I do believe it’s really balanced around sPvP.

In essence, what I’ve seen is that Anet have “learned” from GW1 because it was probably quite a hell for them to balance everything. Unfortunately they just made it easier on themselves by sacrificing PvE gameplay for the sake of sPvP balance.

As in GW1 they should’ve made a difference between PvE and PvP skills more than they did.

I also think that one thing that could help GW2 that might make me reconsider leaving GW2, is that weapons give different skills in PvE and sPvP. They seem fine for PvP but pointless in PvE half the time. Also more elites that make an actual difference in PvE would be part of that. All in all, PvE needs an overhaul and by keeping PvE separate from PvP it wouldn’t need to affect sPvP.

When MMO’s start thinking they are Tomb raider, then it’s time to stop.
Players, companys and many developers have lost all sight of what AD&D was before it jumped into PCs.
We even have Super Mario jumping now, I can’t help but wonder what the next great innovation will be… Maybe characters could stand at the bottom of a hill and have a large ape roll barrels at them? Oh wait! Nevermind!

thanks dude this really helped thanks