Guild Wars 2

I entered Ascalonian Catacombs and I started hating it. Even though its gonna pass in a few minutes I have to get my rage out.

I do understand that the mechanics are different (no tanks/healers) even though I do feel like I am doing mainly healing and trying to keep everyone alive with slows and heals but oh well. But I think it was a poor decision to make AC as hard as they have, considering its the first dungeon where players familiarise themselves with the new system in group play.

As it is the only dungeon I have played I cannot really comment on how the other ones are but I do think its relevant to tune down AC a little as it is the “entrance” into the GW dungeon system.

If you don’t want to tune it down at least abolish repair costs in those dungeons. I do understand that synergy and co-operation between group members is vital here, but that is hard to achieve in a PUG, and even if you do, the reward for killing mobs is gear that your class cant even use (as was the case for me and all the loot that I got).

The difficulty of AC being the first dungeon is a little high for my taste and the rewards do not compensate for that at all.

Last but not least “kitten”…..there….I am vented but surely I am not the only one with such an opinion.

You’re certainly not alone. But at the same time, there’s an equally large group of people who feel the opposite, of which I am a part. We’re just a bit more quiet about it.

I am HAPPY to have a dungeon that challenges me. That makes me work for victory. For which victory is not assured! I hope the rest of the dungeons are as difficult if not more so. And I sincerely hope that Anet doesn’t reduce the difficulty.

Your first problem was trying to keep everyone alive with heals. Everyone in the group needs to utilize their conditions and CC as well as dodging and self healing at the right times. People also need to get people up when they are downed. Don’t just tell them to run back.

Yes, AC was difficult but the explorable mode there (at least the part with the Asura) was very difficult. I’m not sure what we were doing wrong besides not hitting the hitbox of the graveling mounds. I think things should be tuned a little better, but people need to learn this new party system and bring the right weapons and skills.

Dont ever do explorable if you feel that way about Story mode…

asura path is the most cheesy thing ive experienced in this game so far, as a lvl 80 mesmer getting 30copper almost never, and some blues lvl 35+ but my repair cost 12s its not worth it.<

shaidyn.4016:

You’re certainly not alone. But at the same time, there’s an equally large group of people who feel the opposite, of which I am a part. We’re just a bit more quiet about it.

I am HAPPY to have a dungeon that challenges me. That makes me work for victory. For which victory is not assured! I hope the rest of the dungeons are as difficult if not more so. And I sincerely hope that Anet doesn’t reduce the difficulty.

I most definitely see your point of killing a boss as rewarding and I do not want it to be as easy as some of the WoW dungeons/raids that I played. And I am up for a challenge but a different kind of challenge.

I do find it fun to die in an attempt to down a boss/mob to a certain extent, but AC for a new player makes it more frustrating than challenging. What I understand is that you are able to learn from your mistakes and adapt to a change. But its not really fun nor good if you die in a matter of seconds and you don’t even know what happened or what it was.

Since there is no tanking in this game per se, aggro is determined by other means than taunts and increased threat from certain classes. In order to mitigate for such things as no taunts, there is the ability dodge. However, with no tanks, you cannot be certain whether you are getting attacked by a particular mob, lets say ranged.

If you do not know whether you are the target of the add, and it hits you for 1,3k whilst having 2.5k health, dodge is irrelevant if you don’t know that you are supposed to dodge. Now this is not that much of an issue for melee mobs if you are a ranged class or there is only one add, but I can imagine it getting a little confusing for melee classes if there are more than one melee add, which one is going to attack me and how will I know.

The other thing is, you said that it was rewarding, but quite frankly it is not. From the 3 bosses that we killed…I didn’t get one single drop from my class. What is the reward for spending 20 silver for repairs (at least) and you don’t even get a drop that you can actually use? Other than selling it to a vendor for 2 silver altogether.

I am up for challenging content, but that needs to be supported with just rewards and not random “if you get lucky you get lucky” drops.

And the other point I was making is the fact that it is the first dungeon. If they introduced one earlier that would have been easier and given time to train on it then I would understand, but considering the difficult mechanics that are in the dungeon (certain mobs) and (Lovers) for example this should be an advanced dungeon and not beginners.

I dunno I just think the challenge factor should be staggered and not just rubbed into your face. Even though some say being thrown into a pool is the best way to learn how to swim (hard way), a game should still be more enjoyable than frustrating (talking just about the dungeon, I love everything else)

The problem i run into is that people dont watch there own back and as such end up getting the whole party wiped not realizing the part they play actually is vital to the group surviving. My favorite is warriors and guards standing at ranged doing nothing while mobs are encased in bad stuff with people downed and not reviving them. Or just standing in the bad stuff and getting them self’s killed. followed by mob wiping rest of the party. Then complain about how they have repair bills. I’ve ran cm and ac. I’ve ran Multiple times and never died more than 3 times.

Ennarian.4620:

Your first problem was trying to keep everyone alive with heals. Everyone in the group needs to utilize their conditions and CC as well as dodging and self healing at the right times. People also need to get people up when they are downed. Don’t just tell them to run back.

I see your point and understand what you are getting at, but I was trying to make out my point that the group was taking so much damage (no tanking, no certainty of being the target, therefore making dodging a little more tricky, etc) that werent it for my supporting healing and slowing down and immobilising of mobs the fight could have probably been even shorter than it was in some cases.

Furthermore the level of coordination required surpasses the ability of a general PUG. It might be possible in a group of guildies with TS or a group of already experienced players but not in a group of randomers that have entered the dungeon for the first time. I do like the thought of story/explorable modes but maybe they should introduce a mode that is doable also by the general PUG, yet keep the options to make it more challenging

Mato, imo the reason this first dungeon is so hard for some and perfectly doable for others is that you can’t compensate much for bad players. You could be the weak link, or it could be a teammate/teammates. In a lot of games 4 good players could easily compensate for one bad one, but that doesn’t work here.

The other thing is you’re trying to heal too much. I know, I’m a healer in most games too, but in GW2 mitigating/preventing damage is FAR FAR superior to healing it after the fact. Protection boon is awesome, as are things like Aegis/Blind/Weakness and of course knockdowns/snares to make kiting easier.

When you ARE healing, are you making use of blast finishers (if you play ele/ranger…only two that generate water fields I can think of offhand)? Are your teammates? Do you tell them what to look for, so they know where they should be using their finishers to gain an extra burst heal? Does your team have adequate condition removal?

EDIT: Also keep in mind this doesn’t all fall on you. Your whole team should be contributing to the support effort in some way, be it debilitating foes or buffing allies.

Mato.1345:

Ennarian.4620:

Your first problem was trying to keep everyone alive with heals. Everyone in the group needs to utilize their conditions and CC as well as dodging and self healing at the right times. People also need to get people up when they are downed. Don’t just tell them to run back.

I see your point and understand what you are getting at, but I was trying to make out my point that the group was taking so much damage (no tanking, no certainty of being the target, therefore making dodging a little more tricky, etc) that werent it for my supporting healing and slowing down and immobilising of mobs the fight could have probably been even shorter than it was in some cases.

Furthermore the level of coordination required surpasses the ability of a general PUG. It might be possible in a group of guildies with TS or a group of already experienced players but not in a group of randomers that have entered the dungeon for the first time. I do like the thought of story/explorable modes but maybe they should introduce a mode that is doable also by the general PUG, yet keep the options to make it more challenging

One thing i do when going into a instance is talk with all my team mates. I find out what there specced to do. Once we do this we come up with a strat to handle different mobs and desinate one person to call targets. Normally in mine thats me since i fill more of a tanky/support type role and keep the mobs locked down as best i can. This makes it a lot easier for even a new zone with a pug as were not guessing what each other is built for.

Mato.1345:

Ennarian.4620:

Your first problem was trying to keep everyone alive with heals. Everyone in the group needs to utilize their conditions and CC as well as dodging and self healing at the right times. People also need to get people up when they are downed. Don’t just tell them to run back.

I see your point and understand what you are getting at, but I was trying to make out my point that the group was taking so much damage (no tanking, no certainty of being the target, therefore making dodging a little more tricky, etc) that werent it for my supporting healing and slowing down and immobilising of mobs the fight could have probably been even shorter than it was in some cases.

Furthermore the level of coordination required surpasses the ability of a general PUG. It might be possible in a group of guildies with TS or a group of already experienced players but not in a group of randomers that have entered the dungeon for the first time. I do like the thought of story/explorable modes but maybe they should introduce a mode that is doable also by the general PUG, yet keep the options to make it more challenging

I tried to look at the combat log to see what killed me, but it seemed lacking in information. With PuG’s, communication is even more important. I play a thief and as such I don’t have a lot of CC. I can slow and I can daze but that’s about it. I went sword / pistol for a spammable daze. It seemed to help somewhat.

Bosses are easier than trash (except Lovers…) and I think the main reason is because your pugmates only have 1 target to hit. The mobs do have tells before they hit you, but for the average person, they’ll never see it because they tunnel vision into auto attacking.

I think some sort of tuning is in order, but the biggest thing is for people to learn how to play this game and break the old habits from the other mmo’s they came from.

Here’s a good article, done by the fine people at Gamebreaker.tv, about players needing to relearn the way they do groups.
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild-wars-2-adjustment-period/

AC is fun when you’re with a good team of 5 friends you know, and you guys communicate. In my opinion, dungeons are for people who know the meaning of TEAMWORK

I tried to look at the combat log to see what killed me, but it seemed lacking in information. With PuG’s, communication is even more important. I play a thief and as such I don’t have a lot of CC. I can slow and I can daze but that’s about it. I went sword / pistol for a spammable daze. It seemed to help somewhat.

Well thats what I kept finding myself doing most of the time, throwing heals, slowing down mobs, stunning, immobilizing and pushing away, which left me no room for doing much damage which I am specced into (traited into? what would be the expressions?) Therefore making me an ineffective player I guess. But seeing as I have the option to heal and “CC” I feel wrong not using it but maybe that is my flawed game play and I will have to learn to leave group mates to their own judgement for healing and CCing. I am running as a staff ele and what I usually did was making sure that when the group charges in that the mobs get slowed, then I change to air, try to blind, then I see group getting lower on hp I change to water and deliver a little healing support, then I slow down again if ranged are being chased, by that time earth is up and its CC when that is done I can heal agian…its a neverending circle that I cannot get out of even though I am specced into dpsing haha.

Bosses are easier than trash (except Lovers…) and I think the main reason is because your pugmates only have 1 target to hit. The mobs do have tells before they hit you, but for the average person, they’ll never see it because they tunnel vision into auto attacking.

Yes they are, with a boss its usually easy to tell when he is going to hit you and you can avoid damage by various means, especially melee, its usually ranged that give me trouble and yes the worst are Lovers. One time we ran into it someone accidentally pulled and even before I knew what happened I was downed.

I think some sort of tuning is in order, but the biggest thing is for people to learn how to play this game and break the old habits from the other mmo’s they came from.

Absolutely agree 100%, the biggest thing is for people to learn but I think the learning curve is a bit too steep with AC. The higher you get the more challenging it should be for sure, that what makes games interesting and players interested, but its my personal opinion, that for the first instance that players get into, the dungeon should be more for training at acceptable losses and not the extremes of frustration as it causes now.
By the end we were joking around about being more dead than alive and that we might as well join the ghosts being dead all the time

The first and only time I did was also a pain to get done. But I enjoyed it greatly.

Instead of being a simple “spam 1, run to the next mob, spam 1 again”, it’s actually a challenge which will ALWAYS be challenging no matter your level.
People will have to work together and put some of their rusty playerskill (from playing easier MMOs) to use to get it done.

I just hope they add more dungeons in the end, so many so many with so many paths that people don’t get bored about not having “endgame” content.

The dungeons in this game are not what I would call challenging. I imagine a challenge to be something that presents a serious threat but can be overcome if you play well. Some of these fights are beat your head against the wall easy and others are impossible without the correct composition or zerging.

I like a good challenge. I like that they present the mechanics of a lot of mobs and bosses on the mob so I know what I’m getting into, but frankly it’s often not enough. For example, Lovers is a wonderfully mechanical fight. You have to separate them with boulders provided and then you have to keep them occupied at opposite ends of the room. Unfortunately that’s where the fun challenge ends and the pain begins. The elementalist does so much damage that is nigh impossible to avoid. The mesmer doesn’t present as much of a challenge but you still have to deal with keeping him away on top of all of her mechanics. Frankly it would be challenging (for story mode at least) to have you just fight her alone.

Next dungeon: CM. What a joke this was to go through. Mobs did practically zero damage, almost nothing to avoid. It was like night and day. Unfortunately this was also extremely boring because there wasn’t a challenge at all.

I skipped the 50 dungeon and did the 60 dungeon. It’s really not bad until Kudu. Kudu… the second fire golem. Why why why is this boss designed the way he is… it just makes no sense. He has two reasonably avoidable abilities: single target fireball and spinny flame attack. His third ability is not challenging… it’s not even fair. He launches 10 fireballs at random (but seemingly always at someone) in two spurts so that you have to dodge twice every time he does it and they leave behind fire circles. He does this every 5-10 seconds. The room isn’t designed for line of sight either so there are few sweet spots to hide behind and resume damaging. On top of that he gives a big middle finger to anyone using conditions by consuming them to heal.

Frankly, these dungeons need some major tuning and I have some suggestions that don’t involve going back to the holy trinity.

1. Story mode should be story mode. I came to story mode for the story and I want to see what happens. I do not want to bang my head against the wall in the “easy mode” of the dungeon. Story mode should be puggable and should not be extremely challenging. Scale the loot down to compensate, but story mode should not be as difficult as it is.

2. Damage in some places is too high and unavoidable. Fights like the Lovers and the 2nd golem of Kudu have attacks that do massive damage and do not even put red circles on the ground to warn you ahead of time. If you get hit by the initial attack, you will suffer for it and there wasn’t even a warning for you to get out. If you want to make damage that high, put the red circle out first and give me more than half a second to run out. Let’s just imagine that you do get hit by this attack. The damage should not be so great that if you still “get out of the bad” you don’t burn to death afterwards.

3. Control is fun when you get to interrupt a big attack; control is not fun when you have to spam it an entire fight to get through it alive. Daze and stun spamming is about the only thing you can do to get through some fights. It’s not a fun mechanic and it doesn’t make the fight challenging to require it. Instead of determination there should be a small window when a boss is charging an attack where daze or stun will work, but otherwise they won’t.

In closing, I think the dungeons have potential and you don’t need to have healers and tanks to make them work, but you are left with one option for pretty much every fight to make it challenging: stay out of the red.

TL;DR: Dungeons challenge isn’t well tuned. In order to fix it they need to 1) Make story mode a lot easier to ease the learning curve, 2) Give proper warning when major damage attacks are incoming and make them legitimately avoidable by a reasonably skilled player, 3) Remove the need for control spam and put in small windows during a charging attack where you can daze or stun the boss, but not at any other time.

I’m with Elrim on this one. This game’s dungeons aren’t tuned well. I like a challenge that can be overcome with skill. But most dungeon fights aren’t skill based. They’re simply chaos with no “correct” way to do them, which bothers me. I like when there is a correct way to do something. It gives me something to strive for and it allows me to know precisely when I am and aren’t performing well. As it is currently, dungeons feel like a buggy alpha stage. Some bosses are interesting and some are boring as a box of nails. I hope ANet seriously rethinks their dungeon designs and manages to create challenging dungeons, not pure chaos-fests.

Edit: I forgot to add, dungeons need more appeal to them than just “cool looking apparel”. Give us rare crafting material perhaps, or even better; gems. At this rate, most people will hardly find any reason to play dungeons due to their lack of rewards and chaotic design.

I agree with Elrim and Amiron. the main problem with dungeon fights in this game is that thy use a different combat mechanics then exploring the land, it need better teamplay better tactics and better understanding of the game mechanics. the fist story mode dungeon should give the player the ability to understand and adapt to this new mechanics, every fight should be a bit harder and a bit smarter then the other. Ive been in the catacombs for the first time few days ago i didn’t understood the mechanics i died countless times, i tried to understand what I’ve done wrong sometimes i could and sometimes well it was unavoidable. receiving a spike trap at the second i leave downed state is not fun, i never had the time to even dodge away from it. I love dungeons i lead countless dungeon runs in GW1 and i loved every one of them, in this game after my first frustrating defeat the only thing i do is try to avoid it.

I hate the dungeons so far. I have played Ascalonian Catacombs and the Manor one. The difficulty is way too high. It is rediculous. There is no tank to hold the agro, so the agro switches between us all and it sucks to have light armour! We have died countless times in those stupid dungeons and I don’t enjoy them at all.

And looking for people for groups sucks. There is no party-up feature and you have to ask in chat for people to join and then your messages get blocked for spamming!

Kestrel just sounds like you been playing with bad players. I’ve never had issues holding agro in those zones and i’ve yet to die in cm story mode.

AC was a huge breath of fresh air for out group. Yes, it is difficult the first time thru, especially if you are used to the tank n spank type of raids. If everyone just DPS’s it will not be a successful run. Everyone needs to be very aware of their surroundings (insert note about crazy npc ranger damage here) and needs to be using all of their skills appropriately. Timing rezzes is crucial as well.

You will need to have a few of your group running supportive type classes “IE Guardian/Ele” and have them dropping heals and boons whenever they can. Blind build thiefs are particularly helpful.

A few tips learned from out 10+ runs.
Eir Stegalkin room 1 is pretty straight forward, he forecasts his melee hits.
“Ctrl + T” will mark a burn target (make sure you are focusing one on packs of 3, even if you only kill that one, you will only have 2 after you rez), party members can select the marked target by pressing “T”
Line of sight Ranger Mobs, and pushback/slow/cripple all but one.
Once you get a second waypoint, when a party member dies, do not waste time rezzing them, it’s faster, and less dangerous for them to waypoint and run back.
Master Ranger Nente – Assign 1 person to boulder duty, as he can be knocked down, assign 1 ranged class to kite wolves when he teleports to melee.
Ralena and Vassar – We found it easiest for me (Guardian) to tank Vassar, and separate him from Ralena, while the group focuses Ralena, whoever tanks seperate must be very good at staying alive.
Kasha Blackblood – Uses her pets to heal, burn them ASAP, she does massive ground targeted damage, avoid the red circles.
King Adelbern – Pretty straightforward, stay out of blue fire.

Hopefully this helps a little, happy dungeon crawling.

I had the same initial experience with dungeons. I would say AC Story mode needs slight nerfs, but CM story is so cake, it’s silly. Story should be tuned somewhere between the two, with each subsequent dungeon getting mildly tougher.

I feel explore is fine, as it’s supposed to be the ultimate PvE challenge; I can already do AC and CM without dying, and am working on TA. When you master these runs, they take about 40 minutes, and provide huge profits. It’s worth it if you invest the time and money to learn it. However, they should explain that exploration mode is intended for hardcore PvE’rs.

The problem, as I’ve seen it, is players are spoiled by the huge amount of zerg going on in the outdoor zones. They never learn to play their class correctly. The basics should be mastered before doing dungeons. That means, learning to dodge big monster attacks, learning all your combo fields and finishers, and creating a balanced build. The first time, I went in with my pure glass thief and ended up zerging until we just gave up. I came back with a little toughness & vit, read my skills in depth, understood combo field/finisher, coordinated with the team a lil, and completed it with maybe 5 deaths. It just got better from there. Eventually, I bet food buffs & even sigils will become important. I really compare this to the raiding culture in traditional MMOs.