Guild Wars 2

I just got done reading the no true dedicated healing class article and I’m honestly confused… why?! No really why would you not include a dedicated healer?

I realize the answer comes from the death system and how when your health reaches zero you go into a “downed” position. So when you kill an enemy you rally and and go back in the fight. But there are so many problems I can think of this system that it really is sad.

I know most of you know this but (let me for the sake of getting this off my chest) there is this thing called the holy trinity of roles. Which is the Tank, DPS, and Healer. This is the normal set up in a group, seems simple enough. The tank runs in gets aggro, the DPS begins their onslaught, and the Healer sits back and heals the tank, and or DPS if need be. A very clean and effective way to engage the enemy or boss.

Why is this the norm for most MMO’s? Because it works. I see no more effective way to engage an enemy in an MMO other than the Holy trinity system. Here comes the questions, Why change it? Why reinvent the wheel? Why is there no dedicated healing class? Why ’o god WHY not?!

I was playing earlier and just got to level 30 (did most of the tasks and explored a lot). I see that I am now able to do a dungeon “AC.” I jump at the chance because I’m always down to run an instance. So me being a Warrior, get in a group with a Thief, Guardian, Ranger, and an Elementalist. Needless to say, it was a horrible experience. Everyone was dying, and getting picked up only to die again, and getting picked up again only to go back down once more.

Me playing as a Warrior(someone who wears heavy armor and can take the brunt of a lot of attacks) I was afraid to engage the enemy. I felt fragile because I knew if I gained aggro I would just go back down again only to get frustrated. And since there is no dedicated healer how are we supposed survive through fights? If I’m not supposed to tank in this game, then who is taking the brunt of the enemies damage.

I just think the bottom line is they tried something new with this “when you hp reaches zero you go in a downed state.” However I find it 100x more frustrating then just simply dying and restarting a fight. Because lets be real, who wants to fight a boss where everyone is scrambling around reviving everyone just to be knocked back down again, or not knowing what to truly do because there are no roles.

Edit: Sorry for the rant, and I apologize again if this topic has already come up.

Thank you for reading.

i love the lack of healer and having to depend on myself for it. the downed state for warriors is awesome because of the self-rally. that’s just amazingly good. it’s kept my warrior alive through many scrapes i would have died in with another class.

i think the big problem with some players dying “too fast” is getting stuck in the mentality of most other mmos which require less awareness of your positioning. you need to move around a lot more, and when dodging, ensuring you’re moving (say) backwards toward an area you’ve already cleared.

as i said, i still see rangers and elementalists in particular, standing still while shooting and casting. i love seeing that in pvp, because it’s an easy kill. but i can see those people struggling in pve during the hard fights.

with warrior, i’m pretty bad at melee classes when they get confusing. so, how i manage with warrior is i use the gun to open the fight and slap it down with the two-hand sword or hammer to finish. the hammer’s brilliant against harder fights (i use it a lot in my personal quests) because it has a lot of stuns and knockbacks/knockdowns (comparative).

if i have to, i try for some range with a knockdown and double-dodge before switching to gun and doing a lot of running while my heal finishes its cooldown.

i feel most mmos have made us lazy over the years. we’re not used to seriously being multi-faceted in our fights. gw2 forces you to consider what you’re doing and, essentially, playing the role of tank/heal/dps with one class. all the time. i really believe if the classes were rebuilt to a more formal “role” oriented style, we’d all have been so bored by now. because this kind of fighting means you’re always on edge.

and that, my friend, is both the challenge and the fun.

I can understand your point of view, but I don’t agree with it. I am so tired of the holy trinity. It’s been done to death. The way GW2 does it is refreshing imo. For my 6 piece bonus I will be taking “Of the Flock” which heals people around me whenever I heal myself. I like the little things like that much better than blaming the healer for failing when it was the tank who stacked health instead of… blah blah blah..

But that’s what an MMORPG is all about choosing a “role” and doing it. Why make something harder than it needs to be. What’s wrong with the holy trinity system, please enlighten me.

It’s possible to make fights hard using the holy trinity system, just look at almost every other MMO and how they do it.

Honestly though man, I didn’t have fun in the dungeon. I know that fun is subjective and that other people might have had fun. I don’t see the fun in being a Warrior who is normally the tank because he can wear heavy armor, dying repeatedly only to get picked up to go back down again.

The system is frustrating, how am I supposed to survive a fight, really tell me. If this is how high-end instances are played I really might not like this game.

It sounds to me like you are trying to play the tank. You have a ranged weapon that you should be using when are getting steamrolled in melee range. Weapon swap when appropriate.

You’re totally entitled to your opinion, and you’ve laid it out sensibly. That said, I disagree with you.

I’ve played a lot of MMOs, and spent most of my years as a dedicated tank. When I got bored of tanking, I healed. So I know whereof I speak. Having a tank/healer in a group of five, basically gives 3 people the right to be asleep at the wheel. Did you get hit and die? Blame the tank for not holding aggro. Did you die because you stood in the fire? Blame the healer for not keeping you alive.

The holy trinity shunts responsibility for group succcess to two members of the party, while the other three get a free ride.

GW2’s system means YOU are responsible for your survival. Did the boss one shot you? That’s your fault for not dodging out of the way. You actually have to watch the boss animations now.

Your first dungeon experience sounds similar to mine, lots of zerging and dying. The difference is, I blame myself for most of our problems. As a warrior, I put all my points and gearing into precision, which means I had almost no toughness. I was a glass cannon. I also had no abilities on but signets, which means I was helping nobody else in the party. I suspect the rest of my party did likewise.

I’m willing to bet that a group of people who changes their abilities to banners and group buffs will have a MUCH easier time.

In the holy trinity, two people watch out for everybody, and if anything goes wrong they get the blame.

In a bad GW2 group, everybody watches out for themselves and if anything goes wrong it’s their own fault.

In a good GW2 group, people work on supporting each other. And this is the kind of game I want to be playing.

The problem it would seem, would not be in the game’s lack of healing classes, but in the people playing’s lack of adjustment to the change. What is so wrong with taking responsibility for yourself? Having been in quite a few MMOs as the “dedicated healer”, I am actually relieved that ArenaNet took this approach. Everyone has a heal, everyone can use their heal, everyone can take the responsibility for keeping themselves alive… those of us who used to be the dedicated healer classes who have taken professions that can aid in healing, still can feel that sense of accomplishment keeping the group alive, as well as switching roles on the fly.

I have seen enough boss fights in this particular game in the last couple of weeks that indicate to me that most folks are starting to “get it”. Fighting is fluid. Instead of relying on ONE person who does nominal damage but can hold the aggro indefinitely, then to be supported by one other person whose sole job is to keep the first person alive long enough for the others to whittle the enemy down, we have a system where you can bounce in and out of aggro. No one says you HAVE to stand there and take all the punishment. Move like ocean water, ebb and flow with the tide of battle. If you are taking too much damage, dodge back, and let someone else step in to hold the mob’s attention. As you are regaining strength, if you happen to have heals that can be used on others, USE em! Revive people if needed… then hop back in there so that the other person or persons can roll out.

You would be dying if you are simply expecting someone to keep you healed up. You cannot think that way in this game. It does not work.

In the dungeon runs I have done, it is usually with a guild (mine or my friends), and we practice this method a lot. Your first line of defense is yourself… And for the record, I have seen thieves and rangers take up the mantle of tanking (holding aggro), and be quite successful at it, using their dodges. This is quite an achievement considering both use MEDIUM armor, not heavy.

I am sorry that you had that particular experience with a dungeon run, but what you experienced was NOT “the norm” for THIS game.

I would suggest rethinking what it means to be in the group setting. The holy trinity may be “the norm” for other games, but it does not, and will not work as well here. Think outside the box, and you may find that this system that has been set up works quite well. If it is not working for you, or you cannot adapt to the different style of playing, perhaps you might reevaluate playing this particular game, because I highly doubt ANet is going to change the crux of their combat system, just to keep up with “the norm”.

Change is not always a bad thing my friend…

So as a warrior I should switch to a ranged weapon and start doing damage? There’s a reason I picked a Warrior…

Warx.8495:

So as a warrior I should switch to a ranged weapon and start doing damage? There’s a reason I picked a Warrior…

You should if you are taking too much damage in melee. No one should be staying with 1 weapon fulltime. (Well- ele’s but you know what I mean)

If you want to stand in one spot, using one weapon, and take all the damage that the enemies can put out, you’re playing the wrong game.

Warx.8495:

But that’s what an MMORPG is all about choosing a “role” and doing it. Why make something harder than it needs to be. What’s wrong with the holy trinity system, please enlighten me.

It’s possible to make fights hard using the holy trinity system, just look at almost every other MMO and how they do it.

Honestly though man, I didn’t have fun in the dungeon. I know that fun is subjective and that other people might have had fun. I don’t see the fun in being a Warrior who is normally the tank because he can wear heavy armor, dying repeatedly only to get picked up to go back down again.

The system is frustrating, how am I supposed to survive a fight, really tell me. If this is how high-end instances are played I really might not like this game.

that’s the thing, though. everyone still has the mentality of a warrior being a “tank”. but look at the damage you can do with the warrior in gw2. he’s hardly a tank. that greatsword damage. man, it makes my eyes pop each time i see it chop out health points from enemies.

the key is working together. i don’t know if you have anyone you play regular with, but my wife and i are always fighting together. we’re working on getting our combo fields going and try to synch everything. when it comes off, it’s awesome. the difference to this game is that even though you’re playing 3 roles, you still have to work together to control the mob. it’s a jigsaw.

i agree, it’s very different. but that’s the point, really. those old roles of t/d/h are too cliche now. too tired and worn. this way is more dynamic. more fluid. it’s hairier, for sure. the fights can be close. but isn’t that fun? to succeed when the odds look stacked against you? knowing you won because of how well you worked together, rather than just because you had one good player who was the healer?

i really think wow made everyone lazy. it was too easy to succeed in wow in every aspect of the game. all you needed was one good player and no one else had to try. you could spam one or two buttons while standing still. you seldom had to think.

for me, if you spend a few minutes really looking at your skills and really testing your weapons/spells, you might find there’s some real surprises there for you. especially with combo fields and the like. and really getting the hang of moving, too.

You are not supposed to stand still and tank damage in this game. Learn to dodge.

The reason I grouped up was to work as a team and clear the content. Why would I spend all that time searching for people only to forget about them during a fight, or say not “rely” on someone?

In my opinion this just trivializes a very important aspect of RPG’s and thats the “Role” aspect.

This is a response to the people saying that groups are every-man for himself.

Warx.8495:

So as a warrior I should switch to a ranged weapon and start doing damage? There’s a reason I picked a Warrior…

No, you should get gear that has +toughness on it if you want to take more punishment.

Does your gear have that on it right now? Did you take any traits that give +toughness?

If not, it shouldn’t be any surprise that you tank as effectively as a ford focus instead of an M-1 Abrams…

Warx.8495:

So as a warrior I should switch to a ranged weapon and start doing damage? There’s a reason I picked a Warrior…

You may have to reevaluate WHAT a Warrior means to you, because I think what you are thinking is not what you are actually playing or trying to play. On my warrior I use my rifle a LOT. When the distance closes, I go melee (usually greatsword), and get down and dirty… the ability to change on the fly and adapt to the battle is the hallmark of being a true warrior.

Warx.8495:

So as a warrior I should switch to a ranged weapon and start doing damage? There’s a reason I picked a Warrior…

give a warrior a gun and he won’t use it as a doorstop.

nysta.6713:

Warx.8495:

But that’s what an MMORPG is all about choosing a “role” and doing it. Why make something harder than it needs to be. What’s wrong with the holy trinity system, please enlighten me.

It’s possible to make fights hard using the holy trinity system, just look at almost every other MMO and how they do it.

Honestly though man, I didn’t have fun in the dungeon. I know that fun is subjective and that other people might have had fun. I don’t see the fun in being a Warrior who is normally the tank because he can wear heavy armor, dying repeatedly only to get picked up to go back down again.

The system is frustrating, how am I supposed to survive a fight, really tell me. If this is how high-end instances are played I really might not like this game.

that’s the thing, though. everyone still has the mentality of a warrior being a “tank”. but look at the damage you can do with the warrior in gw2. he’s hardly a tank. that greatsword damage. man, it makes my eyes pop each time i see it chop out health points from enemies.

the key is working together. i don’t know if you have anyone you play regular with, but my wife and i are always fighting together. we’re working on getting our combo fields going and try to synch everything. when it comes off, it’s awesome. the difference to this game is that even though you’re playing 3 roles, you still have to work together to control the mob. it’s a jigsaw.

i agree, it’s very different. but that’s the point, really. those old roles of t/d/h are too cliche now. too tired and worn. this way is more dynamic. more fluid. it’s hairier, for sure. the fights can be close. but isn’t that fun? to succeed when the odds look stacked against you? knowing you won because of how well you worked together, rather than just because you had one good player who was the healer?

i really think wow made everyone lazy. it was too easy to succeed in wow in every aspect of the game. all you needed was one good player and no one else had to try. you could spam one or two buttons while standing still. you seldom had to think.

for me, if you spend a few minutes really looking at your skills and really testing your weapons/spells, you might find there’s some real surprises there for you. especially with combo fields and the like. and really getting the hang of moving, too.

If a warrior isn’t supposed to be the tank, whats the niche for heavy armor then? If there are no tanks, why am I wearing heavy armor, for what purpose. If there are no tanks, why is would I ever want to use a sword and shield. Why not just always use a two-hander to do the most damage?

Bel Geode.8129:

Warx.8495:

So as a warrior I should switch to a ranged weapon and start doing damage? There’s a reason I picked a Warrior…

You may have to reevaluate WHAT a Warrior means to you, because I think what you are thinking is not what you are actually playing or trying to play. On my warrior I use my rifle a LOT. When the distance closes, I go melee (usually greatsword), and get down and dirty… the ability to change on the fly and adapt to the battle is the hallmark of being a true warrior.

I picked a Warrior because I wanted to be the person who does damage at melee range, wears heavy armor and can take a beating. If I’m not supposed to take a beating, then why am I able to wear heavy armor and use a sword/shield?

Warx.8495:

The reason I grouped up was to work as a team and clear the content. Why would I spend all that time searching for people only to forget about them during a fight, or say not “rely” on someone?

In my opinion this just trivializes a very important aspect of RPG’s and thats the “Role” aspect.

This is a response to the people saying that groups are every-man for himself.

The teamwork in this game is now about setting up combo fields and healing fields for bonuses, and using your party buffs efficiently. There’s no “Mark of the Wild” for a buff you throw up once an hour. You get “+20% crit for 5 seconds.” BETTER MAKE IT COUNT!!!
Use teamwork by rotating your abilities to keep everyone in good health and the mobs debuffed.

If you’re looking for “tank stands in boss face and eats swings, healer stands in a corner pressing ‘heal’, and DPS just pushes rotations,” you should be going back to Mists of Pandaria…

I dont think OP understands that this game was ment to eradicate the holy trinity, to give players freedom of what they want to do in the game.

You can make anyclass a healer/support, nubs

Warx.8495:

Bel Geode.8129:

Warx.8495:

So as a warrior I should switch to a ranged weapon and start doing damage? There’s a reason I picked a Warrior…

You may have to reevaluate WHAT a Warrior means to you, because I think what you are thinking is not what you are actually playing or trying to play. On my warrior I use my rifle a LOT. When the distance closes, I go melee (usually greatsword), and get down and dirty… the ability to change on the fly and adapt to the battle is the hallmark of being a true warrior.

I picked a Warrior because I wanted to be the person who does damage at melee range, wears heavy armor and can take a beating. If I’m not supposed to take a beating, then why am I able to wear heavy armor and use a sword/shield?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness

^^ How much of this do you have?

While you’re never going to be “the tank” for the whole fight, you can substantially increase the amount of damage you can soak by getting more toughness.

Warx.8495:

The reason I grouped up was to work as a team and clear the content. Why would I spend all that time searching for people only to forget about them during a fight, or say not “rely” on someone?

In my opinion this just trivializes a very important aspect of RPG’s and thats the “Role” aspect.

This is a response to the people saying that groups are every-man for himself.

I think you may be misunderstanding what we are saying. Having a heal means you are primarily responsible for keeping yourself alive. It does not mean you are on your own. Just about every class has something that can heal other people, and are willing to use it if needed. The point of being in a group IS to work together. If your group is not doing that, that is on them. They should be doing solo play if that is the case.

Working together in this instance means that we all have THREE ROLES that we can swap in and out of in the heat of battle- Contol, Support, and Damage.

So yes, Guild Wars 2 very much has the roles you expect to see in a roleplaying game… You just need to think about it differently.

As Master Yoda would say- “You must unlearn what you have learned”. If you stick to the WoW mentality of what a group is, you will likely find frustration and disappointment in this game.

DangerMonkey.3158:

I dont think OP understands that this game was ment to eradicate the holy trinity, to give players freedom of what they want to do in the game.

You can make anyclass a healer/support, nubs

I apparently did not know that. “To give players freedom to do what they want in the game.” And you’re saying that a game like WoW or SW:ToR didn’t have freedom when “choosing” what you want to be? I’d called that freedom.

Moonthrower.1406:

Warx.8495:

Bel Geode.8129:

Warx.8495:

So as a warrior I should switch to a ranged weapon and start doing damage? There’s a reason I picked a Warrior…

You may have to reevaluate WHAT a Warrior means to you, because I think what you are thinking is not what you are actually playing or trying to play. On my warrior I use my rifle a LOT. When the distance closes, I go melee (usually greatsword), and get down and dirty… the ability to change on the fly and adapt to the battle is the hallmark of being a true warrior.

I picked a Warrior because I wanted to be the person who does damage at melee range, wears heavy armor and can take a beating. If I’m not supposed to take a beating, then why am I able to wear heavy armor and use a sword/shield?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness

^^ How much of this do you have?

Let me answer that with another question. If there is no tank, why would anyone want “Toughness”?

Warx.8495:

The reason I grouped up was to work as a team and clear the content. Why would I spend all that time searching for people only to forget about them during a fight, or say not “rely” on someone?

In my opinion this just trivializes a very important aspect of RPG’s and thats the “Role” aspect.

This is a response to the people saying that groups are every-man for himself.

there’s the thing, though. “work as a team”.

it doesn’t have to mean the holy trinity in every mmo. it means, simply, being more cohesive with your skills. work together. when you’re taking too much damage, you should be rolling out and letting someone else take their turn. everyone should be working to control the enemy as much as killing it.

you might like to see using your ranged gun as not being a sign of not being a wow-style warrior, but more about supporting your team by being able to dodge out and still keep contributing. your gun, too, can knockback and cripple your mob. brilliant stuff. it also pumps enough dmg to not be considered a waste of time.

you say you don’t want to forget your team. that’s great! but isn’t being a tank in wow, pretty much forgetting your team? you jump in, thwack the badguy and hope the healer’s paying attention. rinse. repeat.

this way there’s all sorts of things to keep up on. are you dying? roll out. oh, look, someone’s down. how about healing them while your own heals cooldown and others take the punishment while you get your breath? then you can jump back in fresh and big and nasty? that guy you healed won’t be saying, “wow what a tank!” he’ll be thinking you’re a nice guy as well as a great player. and that’s how teams are made.

a guy tried healing me in a fight the other day. he was at full health when he started. was on maybe 1/5 when he finished because he got hit on by adds. i managed to peel the adds off him and he healed and finished smashing them with me before we dumped back on the boss. for me, that was an awesome moment, because he could have just ignored me. could have just kept doing his “role” of dps. but he didn’t. he tried to do what was best for the team.

if you really want a role, i think the best thing to do here is make your own role. just make it a good one.

Bel Geode.8129:

Warx.8495:

The reason I grouped up was to work as a team and clear the content. Why would I spend all that time searching for people only to forget about them during a fight, or say not “rely” on someone?

In my opinion this just trivializes a very important aspect of RPG’s and thats the “Role” aspect.

This is a response to the people saying that groups are every-man for himself.

I think you may be misunderstanding what we are saying. Having a heal means you are primarily responsible for keeping yourself alive. It does not mean you are on your own. Just about every class has something that can heal other people, and are willing to use it if needed. The point of being in a group IS to work together. If your group is not doing that, that is on them. They should be doing solo play if that is the case.

Working together in this instance means that we all have THREE ROLES that we can swap in and out of in the heat of battle- Contol, Support, and Damage.

So yes, Guild Wars 2 very much has the roles you expect to see in a roleplaying game… You just need to think about it differently.

As Master Yoda would say- “You must unlearn what you have learned”. If you stick to the WoW mentality of what a group is, you will likely find frustration and disappointment in this game.

Very well stated. I just really don’t like how we don’t have dedicated roles. Where basically anyone can do anything. In my opinion that cheapens and trivializes roles and throws a huge cog in what an MMO is.

Warx.8495:

And you’re saying that a game like WoW or SW:ToR didn’t have freedom when “choosing” what you want to be? I’d called that freedom.

If you want to make a dungeon group in WoW with 5 rogues, you can’t. Two warlocks, a priest, a hunter, and a rogue? Nope, can’t do that either. Warrior, DK, hunter, Mage, warlock? Sorry, not allowed.

In order to complete content in “holy trinity” games, you NEED tanks and you NEED healers. In a game like GW2, you need 5 skilled players. Any profession, any skills. As long as all 5 people know what the hell they’re doing, you’re golden.

I’m reading everything you’re saying, and I can see your side of the story. But really, REALLY, you shouldn’t be playing GW2. It doesn’t have what you want. You can rail and complain and mope about it, but they’re not changing their entire design philosophy to embrace a point of view they’re actively avoiding.

Sorry.

Toughness helps every class. If you want to be in melee range you will want more than someone who wants to be ranged.

Warx.8495:

I picked a Warrior because I wanted to be the person who does damage at melee range, wears heavy armor and can take a beating. If I’m not supposed to take a beating, then why am I able to wear heavy armor and use a sword/shield?

You will find very quickly that one trick ponies in this game end up dead… Gotta learn to be versatile to survive. No one says you CANNOT be the guy with heavy armor, lots of TOUGHNESS stats, and use the sword and board set up. However you will find that the nature of combat in this game requires you to think on your feet. What if you are being attacked across a small chasm that you cannot leap to by say… a ghostly ranger? Now what… throw your sword?

No… switch to rifle or longbow and chew him up, till he decides to hop over to you, then swap back to sword and board and get all up in his face.

I am, of course speaking of Master Ranger Nente- in Ascalon Catacombs. He is a perfect example of why ONLY being a sword and boarder is largely pointless.

Again, think outside the box… and don’t forget you have four other people with you who are also supposed to be swapping around. They can all see your health bar, they should be stepping up to the plate and taking aggro if you are getting low, and you need to be falling back to get your strength up again.

No one class has the monopoly on aggro here. Everyone is going to be rewarded anyway once the battle is done, so learn to adapt.

I promise you… it DOES work!

Freedom from one set role IS freedom!

shaidyn.4016:

Warx.8495:

And you’re saying that a game like WoW or SW:ToR didn’t have freedom when “choosing” what you want to be? I’d called that freedom.

If you want to make a dungeon group in WoW with 5 rogues, you can’t. Two warlocks, a priest, a hunter, and a rogue? Nope, can’t do that either. Warrior, DK, hunter, Mage, warlock? Sorry, not allowed.

In order to complete content in “holy trinity” games, you NEED tanks and you NEED healers. In a game like GW2, you need 5 skilled players. Any profession, any skills. As long as all 5 people know what the hell they’re doing, you’re golden.

I’m reading everything you’re saying, and I can see your side of the story. But really, REALLY, you shouldn’t be playing GW2. It doesn’t have what you want. You can rail and complain and mope about it, but they’re not changing their entire design philosophy to embrace a point of view they’re actively avoiding.

Sorry.

Well yea, that’s why you normally have 1 tank, 1 healer and the rest DPS. What is the problem with that? Why reinvent the wheel?

Last part: I know, and I’m honestly thinking about it. But thanks anyway for providing this information guys.

redacted

as the guy said. if you want to be melee, you’ll need it. if you don’t, you won’t as much. as you wanted to be in melee range, i think he figured you’d like to spec for it.

up to you if you take the advice. i think you need to look into the game in terms of what its attributes do. it might extend your survivability problems.

Warx.8495:

shaidyn.4016:

Warx.8495:

And you’re saying that a game like WoW or SW:ToR didn’t have freedom when “choosing” what you want to be? I’d called that freedom.

If you want to make a dungeon group in WoW with 5 rogues, you can’t. Two warlocks, a priest, a hunter, and a rogue? Nope, can’t do that either. Warrior, DK, hunter, Mage, warlock? Sorry, not allowed.

In order to complete content in “holy trinity” games, you NEED tanks and you NEED healers. In a game like GW2, you need 5 skilled players. Any profession, any skills. As long as all 5 people know what the hell they’re doing, you’re golden.

I’m reading everything you’re saying, and I can see your side of the story. But really, REALLY, you shouldn’t be playing GW2. It doesn’t have what you want. You can rail and complain and mope about it, but they’re not changing their entire design philosophy to embrace a point of view they’re actively avoiding.

Sorry.

Well yea, that’s why you normally have 1 tank, 1 healer and the rest DPS. What is the problem with that? Why reinvent the wheel?

because you’ll go faster with tyres than on old rickety wooden ones?

Warx.8495:

Well yea, that’s why you normally have 1 tank, 1 healer and the rest DPS. What is the problem with that? Why reinvent the wheel?

I think this is the central point that all of us here are trying to express, and one you need to grasp:

Guild Wars 2 is not a wheel.

You’re absolutely right, game companies should not reinvent the wheel. But that analogy only applies IF they’re creating wheels in the first place. This is an entirely different experience from wow. You can’t come into this game and say “Where are the tanks? Where are the healers?”. There aren’t any. There don’t NEED to be any. The game is simply built differently.

Why is it built differently? Because innovation happens, in any industry.

Warx.8495:

shaidyn.4016:

Warx.8495:

And you’re saying that a game like WoW or SW:ToR didn’t have freedom when “choosing” what you want to be? I’d called that freedom.

If you want to make a dungeon group in WoW with 5 rogues, you can’t. Two warlocks, a priest, a hunter, and a rogue? Nope, can’t do that either. Warrior, DK, hunter, Mage, warlock? Sorry, not allowed.

In order to complete content in “holy trinity” games, you NEED tanks and you NEED healers. In a game like GW2, you need 5 skilled players. Any profession, any skills. As long as all 5 people know what the hell they’re doing, you’re golden.

I’m reading everything you’re saying, and I can see your side of the story. But really, REALLY, you shouldn’t be playing GW2. It doesn’t have what you want. You can rail and complain and mope about it, but they’re not changing their entire design philosophy to embrace a point of view they’re actively avoiding.

Sorry.

Well yea, that’s why you normally have 1 tank, 1 healer and the rest DPS. What is the problem with that? Why reinvent the wheel?

I didn’t enjoy waiting for a tank and healer before I could do a dungeon in other games. It also tended to make tanks and healers primo donnas. They had demands etc. “ohh don’t make the healer or tank mad or they will leave!” HATED that. (I mostly healed though and was not like that. But when I leveled DPS classes I saw how it was)

shaidyn.4016:

Warx.8495:

Well yea, that’s why you normally have 1 tank, 1 healer and the rest DPS. What is the problem with that? Why reinvent the wheel?

I think this is the central point that all of us here are trying to express, and one you need to grasp:

Guild Wars 2 is not a wheel.

You’re absolutely right, game companies should not reinvent the wheel. But that analogy only applies IF they’re creating wheels in the first place. This is an entirely different experience from wow. You can’t come into this game and say “Where are the tanks? Where are the healers?”. There aren’t any. There don’t NEED to be any. The game is simply built differently.

Why is it built differently? Because innovation happens, in any industry.

Fair enough, I guess I was just expecting one thing and got something else. You and Bel Geode have really addressed my concerns. Thanks.

Warx.8495:

Well yea, that’s why you normally have 1 tank, 1 healer and the rest DPS. What is the problem with that? Why reinvent the wheel?

Says who? The same people who decided that today should be Thursday?

I don’t follow your logic on this one. Just because “other games” do it, or have done it for years, does not instantly invalidate what is being done here. I’m telling you that once people embrace the idea of being fluid in combat, this thing works, and works well.. I live it every day with my guild (largely composed of ex SWG players).

I personally am happy with the label “Engineer”… I do not need any other labels attached to me. If I want to tank, I go close in and tank, if I want to heal, I swap kits and heal, if I want to do damage, I break out the grenades, bombs or the flamethrower. I have the CHOICE… It is not dictated to me what “role” to play, I am playing the “role” of an engineer… and doing it well.

But to each their own. One of two things will happen. Either you will give it a shot and adapt, thus finding a better gameplay experience for yourself and those you choose to group with…. Or you will choose NOT to adapt, and shortly be no longer playing GW2. Luckily for you, there is no monthly sub to cancel. If it ain’t working for you, I am sure you can find something that does.

Personally, I hope you stay… You sound like the kind of guy who can hold his own in a fight… just don’t expect to do it alone… you have 4 other people who can also hold their own, if you will work with them and not expect them to cater to you as a “tank”.

First off, there is a ton of research done from the beta that shows that armor and toughness are pretty worthless. So unless that has changed significantly, its still not that good as a statistic.

Second, in regard to this game removing the holy trinity, they left 2 aspects, healing and damage, and removed tanking. Thats all they did, and the system is bad because of it. As has been pointed out in above posts, WHAT is the purpose of different types of armor if they all amount to the same thing? mobs 1 shot you. There is no taunting or tanking, or keeping aggro without dying, so instead of a cohesive unit with tactics and whatnot, you get a chaotic mess of everyone running in and out of combat. No one stands apart in anyway from each other. Melee classes forced to used ranged abilities because melee is too dangerous or some fights just flat out dont allow it. Every battle has boiled down to some gimmick fight.

Combat is completely stale after getting all your weapon abilities, and that takes maybe 2 hours tops? and most of that is probably trying to find a weapon merchant early on?

There is no sense of progression at all with any character, your not unlocking any new abilities with leveling up, you get a few talent points and some passives, but really no new abilites, nothing that defines any class. Why bother making classes at all and just make everything based on weapon type instead?

This game is not everything it was cracked up to be, and has fallen flat in alot of areas. Unless they make combat more meaningful and fun, the only reason this game has people playing is because its free, and its the new thing. Remember SWTOR? same thing will happen here.

Warx.8495:

Fair enough, I guess I was just expecting one thing and got something else. You’re the one in this thread who has really addressed my concerns.

It wasn’t that hard, they were the same concerns I had. I’m a tank by nature, not just by gameplay, and not being able to be the tank concerned me. I like being in the front of the group, calling the shots, making the pulls, taking the hits. And I can’t do that any more.

But I adapted. ctrl+t puts a ‘mark’ on an enemy mob, and tells the group what to hit. So even though I’m not the tank, I still mark the skull. And I use my warrior abilities to rush into combat and get the first hits. The difference is, once I’ve used up my great sword abilities, I dodge away twice, and switch to rifle. I slow the target down until they switch aggro. Signet of healing tops my health up. Then I dodge back in, switch to great sword, and lay down more damage. It’s a much, MUCH, more rewarding playstyle than ‘stand still and hit buttons until mobs are dead.’

ps: The easiest way to get through to someone who disagrees with you is to agree with them where they’re right, rather than pointing out all the areas they’re wrong. Find a common ground, and build on it.

Bel Geode.8129:

Warx.8495:

Well yea, that’s why you normally have 1 tank, 1 healer and the rest DPS. What is the problem with that? Why reinvent the wheel?

Says who? The same people who decided that today should be Thursday?

I don’t follow your logic on this one. Just because “other games” do it, or have done it for years, does not instantly invalidate what is being done here. I’m telling you that once people embrace the idea of being fluid in combat, this thing works, and works well.. I live it every day with my guild (largely composed of ex SWG players).

I personally am happy with the label “Engineer”… I do not need any other labels attached to me. If I want to tank, I go close in and tank, if I want to heal, I swap kits and heal, if I want to do damage, I break out the grenades, bombs or the flamethrower. I have the CHOICE… It is not dictated to me what “role” to play, I am playing the “role” of an engineer… and doing it well.

But to each their own. One of two things will happen. Either you will give it a shot and adapt, thus finding a better gameplay experience for yourself and those you choose to group with…. Or you will choose NOT to adapt, and shortly be no longer playing GW2. Luckily for you, there is no monthly sub to cancel. If it ain’t working for you, I am sure you can find something that does.

Personally, I hope you stay… You sound like the kind of guy who can hold his own in a fight… just don’t expect to do it alone… you have 4 other people who can also hold their own, if you will work with them and not expect them to cater to you as a “tank”.

I honestly get what your trying to say, and this is how Guild Wars does it. I may not be a fan of any class can do anything, but I see this is the direction that Guild Wars 2 has gone. Thanks.

op, i think you’re missing a lot, and probably didn’t really research the game before you purchased it, which is kinda sad. but here’s my $.02 worth.

i’ve played mainly heals, secondarily tank, for most of my mmo career. as a healer, i’m not involved in the fight, i just stand back and watch health bars. as a tank, i’m more aware of the fight, because i have to be, and i just stand there, throw +threat hits, and keep the baddies focused on me.

gw2 changed that, and have said from way-back-when that they were eliminating the holy trinity. they wanted to do a couple of things: 1) make people responsible for their OWN survival, their OWN take-downs, their OWN everything; 2) enable everyone to be an active participant in all the fights 3) stop the reliance on a tank to hold threat, or a healer to heal.

they’ve succeeded, and then some.

at the beginning, i was hesitant about playing a game where i couldn’t be a dedicated healer, or tank. then, i discovered the guardian, and the elementalist. and the ranger. and so on and so on. i delight now in the fact that >>i<< must remain aware of the fights. i must be aware of the aoe on the ground. i must be aware of the mobs that toss the aoe, and strive to beat them. my team, my group, my whatever, EACH has their own role to play, but it isn’t tank/heals/dps. it’s what they do best. four of my guildies and i went into ac for the first time the other day; two thieves, an ele, an eng, and a ranger. we really didn’t die a lot, considering it was our first time in. we found out that the eng could be a spot tank, for a brief period; my thief had scorpion wire, so i could pull mobs to me; the ranger and ele both had aoe healing effect spells … through the run, we learned how to function together, and well.

granted, we’ve gamed together for a long time. further? we were in teamspeak, so we could chatter back and forth. yet further? we weren’t afraid to try different things, when something didn’t work.

if you bought this game thinking it was a re-work of what’s been done, then you didn’t do your research. you ask, why should you wear heavy armor? ever play rift? they have rogue tanks there — medium armor, based on lots of dodge and evasion. everything DOESN’T have to be the same as what came before to be enjoyable, and if you want to successfully do a dungeon, i recommend first learning everything you can about your classes’ abilities in THIS game and second, getting a good, cohesive group together to do it with.

you’ll die. that’s a truth. but i bet when you L2PYC, you’ll die less. when you undo the rigid mindset that past mmos have created for you, you’ll die less. when you embrace what IS rather than what you think should be, your enjoyment will go up.

in the end, it’s on you. i hope you come to love the changes in this game as much as i have. i hope you’ll realize that some of us healers really enjoy being a part of the action, and still able to toss out a heal or two here or there (my ele, for instance! and my ranger!). but if you don’t, then this may not be the game for you. those of us who love it love it PRECISELY because of how anet has set it apart from everything that came before.

i wish you luck.

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