Guild Wars 2

I have a lvl 51 mesmer. I’m working through my PS, in which I had to protect a village of hylek against the undead. We lost the village but saved the villagers. Then I had to protect a Lionguard fort….again, we lost the fort (and my partner) but saved some soldiers. Then I had to fight off undead from the shoreline of Lion’s Arch. We “won” but Lion’s Arch is being evacuated pending an overwhelming attack.

Could I have done better, i.e., saved the village, the fort, etc. or would this have been the case with any profession? I feel like I failed, and I have a really tough time playing the mesmer effectively in a mob. I’m using staff and sword/sword. I actually went to bed depressed last night about my poor performance.

Not it’s part of the story, things will turn around soon

It’s part of the story, but mesmer is indeed a weak class before level 80, and a not so good solo class. They do have all the tools needed for soloing, but their DPS is pretty bad especially in encounters where phantasms die (= about everywhere). It’s more of a defensive support class with great niche utilities for dungeon running. This doesn’t apply to pvp-related gamemodes, including WwW.

Those parts of the PS are supposed to be rough. The instance for the Hylek village will have you losing the village and evacuating the citizens regardless, for example. Same thing with LA instance and pretty much the Lionguard. In many cases you will lose certain things as the story demands, regardless of whether you could actually succeed. So I wouldn’t take it personally nor worry about it much.

oxtred.7658:

It’s part of the story, but mesmer is indeed a weak class before level 80, and a not so good solo class. They do have all the tools needed for soloing, but their DPS is pretty bad especially in encounters where phantasms die (= about everywhere). It’s more of a defensive support class with great niche utilities for dungeon running. This doesn’t apply to pvp-related gamemodes, including WwW.

I have to say… I disagree. I have two level 80 Mesmers and I loved the class within the first couple levels for the first I made. I don’t find them to be a weak class at all. While it took a little bit of time for me to really understand the mechanics of the class, I did grow accustomed to it and had no difficulty with it.

One of mine I leveled with a friend and the other I solo’ed to 80 – I didn’t have any difficulty with either case. I found it to be one of the better solo classes, my damage output is quite good, and I had no difficulty handling groups of mobs with the right management of illusions and phantasms.

I have one set up for a more supportive role for group play, and on her I use staff and sword/focus. My other Mesmer, who is the better damage dealer and more effective solo fighter between the two, wield scepter/pistol and greatsword.

Mesmers definitely have a power / killing slump around the level you are at, OP.

It will get better, but you have to “suffer” thru it. You will start getting better when your Trait points start rolling in around 66. Many of the Mesmer’s best traits are Grandmaaster and you won’t get access to those until 80 (now).

I must say, the Trait changes hit the Mesmer the hardest.

There’s no difficulty in open world. But leveling a mesmer is much more of a pain than leveling, say, a warrior or an ele, especially at low levels.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I found that leveling my Ele was more difficult and a pain than my Mesmers. So was Thief. But both Ele and Thief are not the classes I am the best at playing, so naturally it was harder on me.

Not everyone can play every class well, so where one person may find one class sucky to level with, someone else will have a perfectly easy and good time with it. Saying ‘this class isn’t great at x aspect of the game’ is really more of a personal opinion than fact.

Nah. Facts are that 1) you’re a good mesmer and 2) they still have leveling problems. This is due to low base damage and lack of burst skills wich are really important while leveling, along with little multipliers at low levels. Phantasms doesn’t hit hard enough either, and they aren’t really suited to the pace of open world combats. The lack of Aoes also makes hearth tedious since cleaving with the weak AA takes ages. The problem doesn’t lie in the difficulty, as I said: mesmer is durable. It lies in the time taken to kill things.

oxtred.7658:

There’s no difficulty in open world. But leveling a mesmer is much more of a pain than leveling, say, a warrior or an ele, especially at low levels.

Who mentioned difficulty or low levels? Why are you insistent on insulting PvE players with your comments?

The problem is that clones and phantasms (and their associated shatters) do not come into full power until near LVL 80 (or AT 80) and the Mesmer’s damage potential lies squarely with that mechanic (that is lacking at levels 40-70).

I tend to agree that Eles can be more of a pain to level but mostly because they are less forgiving of mistakes and while Open World is not “difficult” you can easily overextend an Ele and bite off more than you can chew. When you do that, they are very quick to hit the dirt.

Should of made a warrior, that’s how Anet would want it.

@Grimm

Maethor.2810:

I don’t find them to be a weak class at all. While it took a little bit of time for me to really understand the mechanics of the class, I did grow accustomed to it and had no difficulty with it.

One of mine I leveled with a friend and the other I solo’ed to 80 – I didn’t have any difficulty with either case. I found it to be one of the better solo classes, my damage output is quite good, and I had no difficulty handling groups of mobs with the right management of illusions and phantasms.

Maybe there, but I don’t know. I’m not insulting open world players, I’m making a difference between the class learning curve and its strenght. Having an easy to play class doesn’t make it strong.

Mesmer is not easy to play, a point made in the GW2 guide.

oxtred.7658:

There’s no difficulty in open world. But leveling a mesmer is much more of a pain than leveling, say, a warrior or an ele, especially at low levels.

I disagree. I guess it comes down to what one considers a pain.

Leveling a mesmer is the most fun I’ve had in the game. I’ve got 3 level 80 mesmers. They were all fun to level, although this last one not so much. My second one I couldn’t wait to get to level 40 so I could get clone on dodge. My 3rd one was started before April so all traits were grandfathered in but I had to wait a lot longer to get that clone on dodge.

If to you pain means not killing something as fast as possible then mesmer may not be for you. Although in open world pve when approaching a mob from a distance my mesmer’s GS skills will often kill the mob before the warrior in the party gets to them to get in a hit.

Edit: Also although I love playing my elementalist it was more of a pain leveling than a mesmer because I died more frequently. Still both of them were more fun leveling than a warrior for me. I’m certainly glad I did not pay attention to any negative classifications of the professions so I could enjoy playing all of them and deciding which ones I liked for myself.

oxtred.7658:

Maybe there, but I don’t know. I’m not insulting open world players, I’m making a difference between the class learning curve and its strenght. Having an easy to play class doesn’t make it strong.

Neat trick, time travel….what I quoted was posted 5 minutes before what you said you were referencing….

While not a direct insult, your ‘facts’ certainly sound insulting (and a tad obnoxious). Might not be your intent, but that’s how I’m reading it.

For those claiming how easy it is to level Mesmers….have you done so since the Trait changes? There is a definite slump in damage output between LVL 40 and LVL 65 (and on to LVL 80) that makes leveling (in open world) much slower than with other classes (from my experience).

Not having Grandmaster traits until 80 reallly HURTS a mesmer DPS.

Ardyth.9286:

Mesmer is not easy to play, a point made in the GW2 guide.

That doesn’t mean that Arenanet should make it intentionally harder to play by “balancing” it and “giving it more build diversity” which actually translates to nerfing and reducing build diversity.

Yes, since release I have become a much better Mesmer player. It’s true. On the other hand, I do a lot less damage, even though I pay attention to a lot more, react much better, memorize animations, and play mind-games with opponents.

Of my 5 lvl 80’s, mesmer was by far the most annoying to level. For me, there was nothing ‘fun’ about. It was my 3rd toon, so I had lots of in-game experience, but this did not help while leveling a class that simply does not have the proper skills and tools at low-mid levels.

I used whatever tombs, scrolls, exp boosters I had on hand and maxed 3 crafts to get over the leveling ‘hump’. Once at lvl 60-something, I finished off by running the Queensdale champ train. Dreadfully boring, but it got the job done.

As for doing the the personal story on a mesmer, my advice is wait until you are at least 10-15 levels above the PS story level before attempting the next segment.

Mesmers aren’t that bad in the early levels, the traits I run tend to merely reduce cooldowns or add slight damage bonuses. Builds do matter, though – the clone dodge shatter builds are entirely unusable at early levels.

Trait unlocking now is beyond annoying however.

Clone on dodge can be very useful no matter what build your mesmer has.

When running through an area that you don’t want to stop and fight the mobs, dodge forward by double tapping “w” to leave a sacrificial decoy behind when under attack. The real mesmer usually evades and the clone takes aggro so you’re not pulling a whole train of mobs behind.

Many skills and traits have added power or benefit for each illusion up so try to keep 3 up at all times (edit: during a fight). You could swap weapon sets but if the weapon set you have is the one you really want then don’t swap just dodge to get another illusion if your current skills are in cool down.

And then of course shattering is great to finish off a mob or to use periodically (edit: only after your cool downs are over and you are ready to pop up 3 more illusions) during a big boss fight.

EDIT: But Hayashi and others are right. Leveling a mesmer with this new trait system wouldn’t be much fun at all. It was bad enough just having the tier unlocks pushed back so many levels and all traits grandfathered in.

bri.2359:

Of my 5 lvl 80’s, mesmer was by far the most annoying to level. For me, there was nothing ‘fun’ about. It was my 3rd toon, so I had lots of in-game experience, but this did not help while leveling a class that simply does not have the proper skills and tools at low-mid levels.

I used whatever tombs, scrolls, exp boosters I had on hand and maxed 3 crafts to get over the leveling ‘hump’. Once at lvl 60-something, I finished off by running the Queensdale champ train. Dreadfully boring, but it got the job done.

As for doing the the personal story on a mesmer, my advice is wait until you are at least 10-15 levels above the PS story level before attempting the next segment.

I can only say, you must have been doing something wrong as Mesmer is NOT that difficult to level. It CAN be a lengthy process (and nobody can tell anyone else what is boring or not) as your DPS is not stellar, but it is not impossible to kill (just not possible to kill quickly at certain levels in same level areas).

No matter what method you focused on to deal damage (confusion, shattering, conditions, phantasms, ect.), you should NOT be expecting GS # 1 nor Sword # 3 to deal the majority of your damage. The best damage skills for a Mesmer generate clones / phantasms and THOSE deal your damage (via a variety of direct and indirect means).

If you don’t have 3 illusions out almost ALL the time in combat (or you just shattered 3 illusions), you are definitely doing it wrong. Note that there are a few exceptions to that statement, but they are mostly limited to specific WvW roaming builds or PvP builds that you should not even be attempting before LVL 80.

Sword 3 is a clone leap, it does nearly no damage. The greatest phantasm-baesd sustained single target dps for a mesmer in direct mode is 3x staff phantasms with 8+ conditions constantly on a target, but given how rare this occurs, 3x Sword 5 phantasms is a close second that always works well. 3x berserker phantasms from the GS also works, but more for AoE damage centred on a boss target to wipe out its summons/minions with.

Pistol phantasms are popular as they do high burst on initiation. But they’re actually inferior over a longer term because of the time between their shots. They are very useful for WvW content, but you’d generally want a Focus or Sword offhand for PvE, for additional projectile reflection (traited) or additional damage respectively, to accompany the mainhand sword.

Also worth noting that phantasm HP isn’t very high and they can’t survive deadly AoEs. If you’re dodging one, also make sure you use a Shatter skill so they’re not wasted.

Once the phantasms are set the next things to care about is your personal damage. The highest is Sword autoattacks in melee range, which very slightly outdamage Sword 2 in dps. Use sword 2 for evades, not damage – as usual, most mesmers have the misconception that its dps is higher because it loads the damage more consistently, relative to the sword AA chain where most of the damage is loaded on the third hit.

Lastly, you need to consider combo-based damage. A basic skill is Feedback on an enemy projectile user, which not only reflects their projectile, but combos with their projectile to inflict damage plus confusion back on its user. Allies firing projectiles through ethereal fields also stack confusion, as do allies using whirl finishers within the field. Your 4 fields are staff 5, feedback, null field and time warp. Know all 4 of these, have as many as your build can allow, and place them when you see an ally about to initiate Rapid Fire or some other related skill.

Between whether to take a greatsword or staff, the earlier does more ranged direct damage in a solo situation, the second harmonises better with larger groups.

Note that reflected projectiles use their caster’s Power rating so your Power is irrelevant, but they use your critrate and critdmg%, so your Precision and Ferocity matters.

It’s possible to load quite a lot of damage as a mesmer, though it’s inherently far more complicated than ‘use skills 2,4 then autoattack until the cooldowns are over’ on a a/m warrior. It’s not hard to play as in actions per second, but requires more active thought to use properly.

Assuming you’re soloing or your party has no access to bleeds (aka doesn’t override your bleeds), it’s possible for 3x Duelist to outdps Swordsman.

Reasoning? Sharper Images. With 3 Duelists, assuming 1 of them isn’t attacking at the same time as the other two (aka you can have 2 synced, although it’s preferable to have them staggered similar to Wardens but not necessary), you can easily maintain 21-24 stacks of Bleeding with the standard A/R armorset. This gives you an additional 1,000 dps assuming no condition damage bonuses are applied other than through traits (200 from Illusions).

With Phantasmal Haste, the total time of one attack cycle (attack + delay) is 6.6s for Duelist and 4s for Swordsman.

Assuming no Bloodlust is being applied, the Duelist will hit for around 4-5k and the Swordsman will hit for around 3-5k. I assumed both were dealing 5k damage over one attack cycle. Swordsman will add up to 1 stack of Bleeding whereas Duelist will add up to 8 stacks.

The bleeding from Sharper Images will last for 6.5s or roughly around when the Duelist starts attacking again (or allowing the Swordsman to maintain 1.5 stacks each).

Roughly, the Duelists 21-24 stacks of Bleeding will maintain an additional dps of 1,000.

Roughly, the Swordsmans 4.5 stacks of Bleeding will maintain 175-200 dps.

This is not easily tested/shown in the Mists due to stat limitations (you’re not going to be hitting 90+% crit chance in the Mists on a Mesmer solo).

If you’re going purely to improve your Duelists, running Precision Food and Nourishment will help greatly, boosting Critical Chance to just under 100%. If you choose to run Slaying Food instead, you’ll lose up to 7% Critical Chance depending on how strong the Nourishment you run is.

Note: By Nourishment, I mean Potions. That’s just how I refer to them.

While I do love running Offhand Sword (for the Block and Line Daze, since it’s more controlled than Magic Bullet), the Phantasm isn’t always the go-to Phantasm for top-dps. Between Warlock when the enemy has Conditions, Duelist when the enemy has no Bleeds, Berserker when the enemy is against a wall (actually, this is a burst, not sustained dps), Swordsman isn’t the best.

Tl;dr: If nobody is applying Bleeds, running 3 Duelists in a sustained battle may net you more dps in addition to getting Projectile Finishes.

Also, 2 Wardens can maintain an average of 18 stacks of Bleed peaking at 24 depending on how they’re synced/staggered. 3 staggered Wardens will maintain 25 stacks of Bleed.

I was mainly focusing on direct damage calculations because of the max-condition-stack nature many combats seem to be in nowadays in PvE, but Esplen’s post above is absolutely correct otherwise. Timing the finishers with any Chaos field can add additional confusion (he mentioned this in the tldr part) – it’s only 20% chance per shot, but each duelist fires 8 times, and a confusion5-stack every 5 seconds is certainly a good addition. This can be very useful in WvW, even if somewhat less so for fights in the PvE context due to an overly low condition cap.

Berserker when against a wall still loses to Swordsman in direct damage terms however, since it’s 2.2 multiplier every 6 seconds relative to the swordsman’s 1.925 every 4 seconds. For it to be better against a single target you’d have to have enough condition damage for the bleed to make more of a difference, or to time the whirl with ethereal combo fields so they proc Confusion. I mentioned Berserker even under direct terms because its 2.2 multiplier (0.55 for each of 4 hits) Cleaves, whereas the Swordsman’s one doesn’t, making it very notable. The only other Cleaving phantasm is the Warden, but that phantasm does very horrid direct damage, and is better used for projectile nullification and condition builds.

With the new changes coming out, there will be some builds now that are capable of stacking bleed via wardens, confusion by dropping ethereal fields on said wardens and sceptre 3, and then stacking torment in addition to that with autoattacks and/or clones making the buffed mesmer a possible competitor to the necromancer for max condition damage output.

I’m sure people can see for themselves how complicated the situation can get from just these few posts. Mesmer gameplay contains a lot of this for max effectiveness.

Yeah for the Berserker, I did try to note that it was a burst and not sustained DPS. Berserker is never better than Swordsman unless you’re cleaving or need the cripple/range.

Also, Warden is very, very useful for Condition clearing with no need to synergize with anything other than the weapon it comes on. Simply drop down a Warden and then put the Curtain on top of the Warden and watch as conditions disappear! Of course, this prevents the knockdown-Warden combo unless you’re doing it mid-fight while Wardens are already up.

As for the condition stack with Scepter Focus, I don’t particularly see that being nearly as useful as a typical Scepter/Pistol Staff build. IE getting fixed will improve Confusion on Pistol in addition to doubling your clone condition damage output (potentially kittens on one target now becomes 8). It also doesn’t require your target to stand still for 6 seconds, no offense.

And I meant Sword 2 (not Sword 3)…..sword 3 is good to close a gap to set up sword 2 and set up a shatter after the leap.

Also, you guys are arguing about best DPS builds at LVL 80 when the discussion is about a distinct lack of killing DPS WHILE leveling….sub LVL 80…..

I do see the Scepter Torment change being useful for lower level Memsmers as in PvE, you can use Torment to a huge advantage by simply dodging and kiting a bit.

We’re not arguing at all I don’t think. Merely discussing strengths and potentially tactics/uses of various Mesmer skills.

Ok….discussing, then.

The OP states he’s level 51….I’m sure he would appreciate discussion that is relevant to that, not banter about PvP and WvW options…..just saying.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Ok….discussing, then.

The OP states he’s level 51….I’m sure he would appreciate discussion that is relevant to that, not banter about PvP and WvW options…..just saying.

Combos are part of all gameplay, no matter your level (unless they prevent you from making combos until you unlock them, sarcasm).

Stating which Phantasms optimize damage output is also effective at all levels, in addition to talking about strategies which can be relevant and utilized at his level. He’s level 51, which means he has access to 4 trait points.

If he slots in Compounding Power, then my points relating to Compounding Power and Sword3 tricks are relevant.

If he slots in Sharper Images, then the choices of his Phantasms that he drops on enemies, notably for fights longer than 30 seconds, can make a bigger impact on his fights.

You might not have been able to read past all of the endgame content being discussed, but the points are still there, while using endgame examples to incorporate everyone.

Summation of our “argument”
Ignoring everything but clone generation, Sword3 works well with Compounding Power when combined with casting a Phantasm. Can mix in a shatter before casting Sword3 or finishing casting the Phantasm.

Sharper Images allows Duelists to out-dps Swordsman.

Berserker is more of a burst and not sustained dps. Particularly only useful for a cripple or if you want to fight from afar.

Warlock is the highest possible dps in the right conditions (get it, it requires around 8… conditions).

Warden has interesting combinations.

Utilize combos and effects of skills to produce devastating effects (arenanets words, not mine).

I still proclaim what I stated in beta, mesmer clones should have four tricks to work with their clones, not four different types of explosions. They are illusions, not bombs.

If they levelgate combos, that would seriously cripple mesmers in the early game. Luckily they haven’t released any plans to do so yet, but we’ll watch that…

We’re not arguing rather, but throwing several options out for the OP to consider to increase said mesmer performance based on our experiences. Aside from certain traits (sharper images for instance, available at lvl 60), a lot of what we’re saying is relevant regardless of what level someone is at. I’d think we’re on the same side here.

Again…he’s LVL 51 (NOT LVL 60) and has likely never SEEN the Sharper Images trait…..

I’m not saying the advice is bad or wrong, just not applicable to the OPs current situation.

My point was that maybe you guys were talking a bit over the OP’s head and just don’t realize it since you are used to discussing LVL 80 builds in the Mesmer forum.

Oops, forgot that master minors aren’t available at level 51. :/ I don’t like the new system, so confusing.