Guild Wars 2

mtpelion.4562:

crimlet.9872:

Trading post doesn’t have ability to trade with individual players. It’s meant for trading publicly. Hence your argument is completely invalid.

All transactions on the Trading post occur when an individual player buys or sells to another individual player.

You’ve created an imaginary distinction (public versus individual) and are using it as the basis for your entire argument. That renders your conclusions and arguments illogical because your basic premise is just flat out wrong.

There is absolutely no point to have a player to player trading interface because there is already a MUCH BETTER player to player trading interface in the game.

Wrong. There is no secure interface for trading between individual players. Hence the need for an interface to do so. It’s clear in how the game works. There is no imaginary distinction. The auction house is solely for trading to the public. You cannot use it to trade with individual players. It is currently not possible to trade with another player without using the mail system. Once one player gets a item, there is nothing to stop him from leaving without fulfilling his end of the bargain.

If you really think you can do it on the BLT, then go in the game, and find another player you want to trade with on your imaginary interface. In actual reality, it’s impossible as the BLT only allows you to list items for sale to public that all players have access to.

crimlet.9872:

Wrong. There is no secure interface for trading between individual players. Hence the need for an interface to do so. It’s clear in how the game works. There is no imaginary distinction. The auction house is solely for trading to the public. You cannot use it to trade with individual players. It is currently not possible to trade with another player without using the mail system. Once one player gets a item, there is nothing to stop him from leaving without fulfilling his end of the bargain.

If you really think you can do it on the BLT, then go in the game, and find another player you want to trade with on your imaginary interface. In actual reality, it’s impossible as the BLT only allows you to list items for sale to public that all players have access to.

The fact that you don’t know who the individual player you are dealing with is doesn’t change the fact that you are trading with an individual player.

If you want to trade items with a specific player, then you have to use the mail system. If you can’t trust that player to not cheat you, then it would be pretty stupid of you to want to trade with them in the first place.

I think we’re getting to the point that this discussion is going nowhere. The OP doesn’t seem to get that his points are nonsensical and when it’s refuted he changes his argument. Before this gets anymore circular, can a moderator please close this?

Azrael.4960:

I think we’re getting to the point that this discussion is going nowhere. The OP doesn’t seem to get that his points are nonsensical and when it’s refuted he changes his argument. Before this gets anymore circular, can a moderator please close this?

Actually when he is refuted or someone brings up a counterpoint, he waves his hands, says “your argument is illogical,” and considers that a rebuttal.

mtpelion.4562:

crimlet.9872:

Wrong. There is no secure interface for trading between individual players. Hence the need for an interface to do so. It’s clear in how the game works. There is no imaginary distinction. The auction house is solely for trading to the public. You cannot use it to trade with individual players. It is currently not possible to trade with another player without using the mail system. Once one player gets a item, there is nothing to stop him from leaving without fulfilling his end of the bargain.

If you really think you can do it on the BLT, then go in the game, and find another player you want to trade with on your imaginary interface. In actual reality, it’s impossible as the BLT only allows you to list items for sale to public that all players have access to.

The fact that you don’t know who the individual player you are dealing with is doesn’t change the fact that you are trading with an individual player.

If you want to trade items with a specific player, then you have to use the mail system. If you can’t trust that player to not cheat you, then it would be pretty stupid of you to want to trade with them in the first place.

Incorrect. BLT has no interface for individual trades as there is none in the game. As for you and only you considering it stupid to want to trade with a player you don’t trust. How about not play mmorpg period unless you want to trust everybody with your account info and password. Maybe you should trust them with your social security number?

I found another site that says the same thing. There is no way trade with another player. Anybody saying you can do so in the BLT, I’d like to see it.
Here is the link:
http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/87124/how-to-trade-with-another-player

@crimlet

“Incorrect. BLT has no interface for individual trades as there is none in the game. As for you and only you considering it stupid to want to trade with a player you don’t trust. How about not play mmorpg period unless you want to trust everybody with your account info and password. Maybe you should trust them with your social security number?”

Your argument is illogical.

Not wanting to add another layer of trading that players think is ANet approved but is susceptible to scamming is not the same as giving random people on the internet your SS number and account information.

crimlet.9872:

Incorrect. BLT has no interface for individual trades as there is none in the game. As for you and only you considering it stupid to want to trade with a player you don’t trust. How about not play mmorpg period unless you want to trust everybody with your account info and password. Maybe you should trust them with your social security number?

I was going to suggest that perhaps the reason you aren’t getting it is due to a language barrier, but then you used “social security number” which tells me you actually use English as a primary language which means the words aren’t the problem here.

You’ve already been given your answer, the fact that you can’t understand it or don’t like it is irrelevant at this juncture.

Astral Projections.7320:

@crimlet

“Incorrect. BLT has no interface for individual trades as there is none in the game. As for you and only you considering it stupid to want to trade with a player you don’t trust. How about not play mmorpg period unless you want to trust everybody with your account info and password. Maybe you should trust them with your social security number?”

Your argument is illogical.

Not wanting to add another layer of trading that players think is ANet approved but is susceptible to scamming is not the same as giving random people on the internet your SS number and account information.

I never said it was.

If you want to buy/sell items easily and securely, the auction house is great. However, if you want to do a trade with another player, neither the auction house nor the mail system are adequate. The auction house has no interface for trading between individual players. The mail system has interface for sending items to individual players, but has no interface to secure trades. It’s that simple. An interface for secure trade can easily be implemented into the mail system, BLT, or just be a separate interface.

This has been explained over and over. It’s not that difficult to comprehend. No illogical rebuttals or twisting of definitions can change the fact that an interface for secure trading benefits economic interactivity, and reduces risk of getting scammed/robbed.

SOME ILLOGICAL ARGUMENTS

ARGUMENT 1: Auction house is a secure way to trade publicly. Therefore, players can’t get scammed when trading with eachother individually outside of the auction house. Therefore, creating a secure trade interface that can be used instead of the mail system when players trade individually with each other will increase the probability for scamming.

ARGUMENT 2: Whoever wants to trade with another player is stupid.

ARGUMENT 3: A beneficial standard aspect of mmorpg economic interactivity between players is a trade interface where players can trade with eachother. Therefore, implementing a player to player trade interface will have such a significant effect that the in-game economy will be destroyed.

ARGUMENT 4: Using a secure trade interface for individual trade is less risky than trading through the mail system. Therefore, more people will get scammed if a secure trade interface is implemented. Therefore, there will be more reports and need for monitoring from developer.

The fact that the OP continually uses words incorrectly (like ILLOGICAL), brings all his arguments into question.

Seriously, this is a dead issue if for no other reason than there is no REASON for someone to need to trade directly with a stranger. The other reason is that Anet has made it abundantly clear this is not even something they would consider adding to the game (mostly because it is not needed). The OP needs to PROVE it is needed, not ask us to PROVE why it is not (can’t prove a negative).

Brother Grimm.5176:

The fact that the OP continually uses words incorrectly (like ILLOGICAL), brings all his arguments into question.

Seriously, this is a dead issue if for no other reason than there is no REASON for someone to need to trade directly with a stranger. The other reason is that Anet has made it abundantly clear this is not even something they would consider adding to the game (mostly because it is not needed). The OP needs to PROVE it is needed, not ask us to PROVE why it is not (can’t prove a negative).

Trading with others directly can be a more psychologically rewarding experience than trading with a faceless market. There’s also less Choice Paralysis than when dealing with the TP, if someone has something they want to buy or sell. Especially if it’s going to use immediately.

If you want a “warm fuzzy” just give the item away. If you want to try and make money on it, sell it on TP. This is not a difficult concept.

Again, this will NEVER be put in place so this discussion is wasted bandwidth. The reasons have been given multiple times above.

^ I agree.

However there are FEW reasons to open trade with another player. I’ve done it a few times with my guildies, but thats about it. Having a secure channel to do that would be redundant and useless. And there is the FACT that there WILL be scammers. In one way or another. And even though it may not be against the ToS, there will still be tickets by those players who have been scammed. And ANET will have to go through and investigate each one, as they crop up. Resulting in a much larger work load, sifting through legit claims, and not. Which of course is an increase of moeny spent on ANETs part. It’s just not worth it.

pdavis.8031:

^ I agree.

However there are FEW reasons to open trade with another player. I’ve done it a few times with my guildies, but thats about it. Having a secure channel to do that would be redundant and useless. And there is the FACT that there WILL be scammers. In one way or another. And even though it may not be against the ToS, there will still be tickets by those players who have been scammed. And ANET will have to go through and investigate each one, as they crop up. Resulting in a much larger work load, sifting through legit claims, and not. Which of course is an increase of moeny spent on ANETs part. It’s just not worth it.

This is incorrect. Scamming is far easier through mail system. Trade interface reduces scamming, and therefore less reports. Therefore, less developer workload. I’ve already explained this.

Just to put it in perspective, I have never played an MMO that allowed personal trade between individual characters, that did not have an issue with players exploiting the system to create duplicate money or items. The system in place now limits trade to either the general public, or only players you trust enough to do a mail exchange. Though the mail exchange opens you up to personal exploitation.

Anyway, that should help some folk understand why they were wise enough not to implement a personal trading system in GW2. One of the reasons anyway.

A trade system that allows players to create duplicate money/items is a problem. On that doesn’t allow this is not a problem.

One thing that you need to realize is that any trading system that you would implement would have to have the same taxes as the BLTP.

That alone makes item-for-item trading in any form impossible. How are you going to take 15% out of a trade that consists of Legendary A item and Legendary B item?

Back in the day (months and months ago), this same argument was made by someone. The economist hired by ANet pretty much said: “Wanting to trade player-to-player kinda means you want to scam someone somewhere by paying a low amount for their item or having them pay high for your item.” Similarly, ANet has said in the past that any “trading” happening via the mail system is not considered “trading” by ANet, but rather “gifting”.

Also, it does not matter how secure a player-to-player trading system is. People will still try and succeed at scamming by swapping items that have identical icons but vastly different prices.

The only valid argument for a player-to-player trading is trading different goods. That argument doesn’t really hold too well because the global TP assures that access to almost any resource in the game is easy.

If you look at almost any MMORPG out there, you’ll see that one of the biggest reasons for having player-to-player trading is ridiculous inflation. The ingame currencies tend to be so deflated that the most expensive items cost more in currency than a character can carry around, resulting in people needing to use something more valuable as a trading medium. This is not a problem that exists in any form in Guild Wars 2.

Olba.5376:

One thing that you need to realize is that any trading system that you would implement would have to have the same taxes as the BLTP.

Completely false. There is no basis for this. The tax on the BLT is fine. There is no need to also tax players who wish to trade with eachother. This is as completely illogical as claiming that player should be charged a fee just for giving something to another player through the mail system.

Olba.5376:

“Wanting to trade player-to-player kinda means you want to scam someone somewhere by paying a low amount for their item or having them pay high for your item.”

False. There is no basis for this as well. A player who wants to trade with another player simply means they want to trade something with each other. It is compeletely and utterly illogical to claim that they necessarily want to scam each other.

In any case, an interface that prevents people from scamming/robbing other players prevents it from happening.

Olba.5376:

If you look at almost any MMORPG out there, you’ll see that one of the biggest reasons for having player-to-player trading is ridiculous inflation.

This is totally incorrect. All mmorpgs have player to player trade because it makes economic interaction safer and more convenient for players. Same reason there is an auction.

If there was no auction or individual trade interface, players would still have the capability of mailing items to eachother. Players would either use offline site or wts chat to sell anonymously. BLT solves this by creating an interface right in the game where player can sell publicly safely and conveniently. Thereby reducing many scams and hassles. What it doesn’t solve is that there is still no safe/secure way for players to trade individually with each other. GW2 has not solved this. The problem is easily solved with an interface that allows players to trade with one another. Thereby reducing the risk of getting robbed/scammed when conducting individual trades.

If 2 players want to do a trade with each other, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are or aren’t trying to scam each other. There are 2 possibilities.
1. Both of them want to scam the other.
2. One of them wants to scam the other.
3. Neither of them are trying to scam each other. They just want to do a simple trade.

Either way, they don’t know the intention of the other player.

It’s nonsensical to tell them to use the mail interface which has no capability of securing trades.

It’s nonsensical to tell them to use the BLT because as soon as they put something in there, it is open for anybody to purchase. Not to mention the whole deal of having to go through all that extra hassle is more inconvenience than any player needs.

With a trade interface, it doesn’t matter what the intentions of the other player are, trade cannot go through until both players accept the trade.

The fact that there is no trade interface increases scams. It decreases player safety and convenience of trading with each other.

i use mail to trade with another player. it is working fine because they are my trusted friend.

i can’t think of any reason to trade with a specific player i don’t know. you can buy anything from TP.

I think nobody will trade with individual for item that is more expensive than TP. Maybe the only reason is to bypass the TP tax and buy the item cheaper than TP. If thats the case, player should risk being scammed for not using TP.

Crossaber.8934:

i use mail to trade with another player. it is working fine because they are my trusted friend.

i can’t think of any reason to trade with a specific player i don’t know. you can buy anything from TP.

I think nobody will trade with individual for item that is more expensive than TP. Maybe the only reason is to bypass the TP tax and buy the item cheaper than TP. If thats the case, player should risk being scammed for not using TP.

This is completely wrong:
a: The tax on BLT have no relevance. 0 tax on BLT still doesn’t mean players are able to trade individually.

b: What you’re saying is as illogical as anybody who says you shouldn’t play any mmorpg if you can’t trust other players in the game with your password or social security number. You have to trade only with people you trust. You have to play mmorpgs with only people you trust. It’s not realistic.

crimlet.9872:

Crossaber.8934:

i use mail to trade with another player. it is working fine because they are my trusted friend.

i can’t think of any reason to trade with a specific player i don’t know. you can buy anything from TP.

I think nobody will trade with individual for item that is more expensive than TP. Maybe the only reason is to bypass the TP tax and buy the item cheaper than TP. If thats the case, player should risk being scammed for not using TP.

This is completely wrong:
a: The tax on BLT have no relevance. 0 tax on BLT still doesn’t mean players are able to trade individually.

b: What you’re saying is as illogical as anybody who says you shouldn’t play any mmorpg if you can’t trust other players in the game with your password or social security number. You have to trade only with people you trust. You have to play mmorpgs with only people you trust. It’s not realistic.

1) Tp tax is by design a gold sink in the first hand, will they allow players to bypass the gold sink by any mean? it is completely wrong if they allow a bypass. If even if they add a direct trade, the charge should be much higher.

2) Did you play a MMO for trading items? i don’t, i play for coop and it makes no difference there is direct or not. if everyone use direct trade to bypass tax, there will be none using the TP for expensive item and all player will have to enduce the WTS spam in lion’s arch again.

People, please stop feeding those that dwell ’neath bridges.

mtpelion.4562:

People, please stop feeding those that dwell ’neath bridges.

And now we wait for the inevitable reply:

“ILLOGICAL. This is completely false and incorrect, for reasons I’ve already explained.”

Frankly, it is rather boring and predictable that each and every post that does not fully agree with the OP is met with a variant of the above response. Debating with someone who does not know how to, is not a fruitful activity.

crimlet.9872:

pdavis.8031:

^ I agree.

However there are FEW reasons to open trade with another player. I’ve done it a few times with my guildies, but thats about it. Having a secure channel to do that would be redundant and useless. And there is the FACT that there WILL be scammers. In one way or another. And even though it may not be against the ToS, there will still be tickets by those players who have been scammed. And ANET will have to go through and investigate each one, as they crop up. Resulting in a much larger work load, sifting through legit claims, and not. Which of course is an increase of moeny spent on ANETs part. It’s just not worth it.

This is incorrect. Scamming is far easier through mail system. Trade interface reduces scamming, and therefore less reports. Therefore, less developer workload. I’ve already explained this.

True. While a trade interface will REDUCE scamming and reports, it does create the possibility of scamming. As it is now, the TP completely eliminates scamming. So adding a player to player trade function brings the chances for scamming UP from 0%, to say 5% or higher. Any player to player interaction has the possibility of being exploited and used for malicious purposes. Even the chat, with gold sellers, griefing, spamming, etc. There is no way to make player to player trading 100% secure and safe. If player A has an item player B wants, and Player B has what A wants. Both should sell their respective items on the TP, and then with the money gained from the sale, buy the item they want. 100% safe, secure, and no one risks getting scammed in some way.

And before you cry incorrect or illogical, show a way that the TP is NOT 100% secure, and how a trading interface can be implemented and utilized in such a way that CANNOT be exploited, ever.

pdavis.8031:

crimlet.9872:

pdavis.8031:

^ I agree.

However there are FEW reasons to open trade with another player. I’ve done it a few times with my guildies, but thats about it. Having a secure channel to do that would be redundant and useless. And there is the FACT that there WILL be scammers. In one way or another. And even though it may not be against the ToS, there will still be tickets by those players who have been scammed. And ANET will have to go through and investigate each one, as they crop up. Resulting in a much larger work load, sifting through legit claims, and not. Which of course is an increase of moeny spent on ANETs part. It’s just not worth it.

This is incorrect. Scamming is far easier through mail system. Trade interface reduces scamming, and therefore less reports. Therefore, less developer workload. I’ve already explained this.

True. While a trade interface will REDUCE scamming and reports, it does create the possibility of scamming. As it is now, the TP completely eliminates scamming. So adding a player to player trade function brings the chances for scamming UP from 0%, to say 5% or higher. Any player to player interaction has the possibility of being exploited and used for malicious purposes. Even the chat, with gold sellers, griefing, spamming, etc. There is no way to make player to player trading 100% secure and safe. If player A has an item player B wants, and Player B has what A wants. Both should sell their respective items on the TP, and then with the money gained from the sale, buy the item they want. 100% safe, secure, and no one risks getting scammed in some way.

And before you cry incorrect or illogical, show a way that the TP is NOT 100% secure, and how a trading interface can be implemented and utilized in such a way that CANNOT be exploited, ever.

People have already tried this with him. His argument will be that the email trading system is way too scammable and a player to player system will be more secure.

What he fails to understand is that there will be a net increase in scams even with a more secure system as a higher percentage of players will use it, thinking that it’s secure because it’s specifically designed for trading.

He doesn’t understand that a lower failure rate together with a higher rate of use means more scams, not less.

Any attempt to explain this to him results in him saying illogical and ignoring the point.

^
Yeah I’ve been noticing that trend from the OP as well. But I’m bored at work and this gives me something to do :P

crimlet.9872:

This is incorrect. Scamming is far easier through mail system.

Not unless you are not too bright….simply don’t do it. It’s that simple.

Astral Projections.7320:

People have already tried this with him. His argument will be that the email trading system is way too scammable and a player to player system will be more secure.

What he fails to understand is that there will be a net increase in scams even with a more secure system as a higher percentage of players will use it, thinking that it’s secure because it’s specifically designed for trading.

He doesn’t understand that a lower failure rate together with a higher rate of use means more scams, not less.

Any attempt to explain this to him results in him saying illogical and ignoring the point.

The problem is that the OP tends to compare a player-to-player trade window option to the strawman alternative that makes it look more favourable. Some examples:

- If people mention disadvantage X about trade windows, then he will compare trade windows to in-game mail transactions, which are even worse at X (ignoring any comparison with the trade post, which eliminates X.)

- If people mention disadvantage Y about trade windows, then he will compare trade windows to the trade post, which has disadvantage Z in comparison to trade windows (and ignoring any further mention of disadvantage Y, as well as any mention of in-game mail or guildbanks, which happen to not have disadvantage Z at all.)

This is false rhetoric, and more aimed at illegitimately disqualifying all other opinions, in order to reach the “inevitable” solution that there is only a single possible valid opinion, which happens to be the one held by the OP.

To argue against such a “debater” (in a loose sense of the word) is pointless, as any argument you present will be misconstrued, turned into a strawman, and dismissed out of hand over the course of an abrasive rant.

Frankly, I am even wondering why this thread is not in the “Black Lion Trade Post” forum, or even in “General Discussion”. The “Players Helping Players” forum is just about the last place to choose in order to post a suggestion to the game developers. After all, it is mostly frequented by helpful players who are friendly enough to point out potential flaws in such suggestions/opinions.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Frankly, I am even wondering why this thread is not in the “Black Lion Trade Post” forum, or even in “General Discussion”. The “Players Helping Players” forum is just about the last place to choose in order to post a suggestion to the game developers. After all, it is mostly frequented by helpful players who are friendly enough to point out potential flaws in such suggestions/opinions.

I’m wondering why it isn’t in the “Trashcan” forum.

mtpelion.4562:

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Frankly, I am even wondering why this thread is not in the “Black Lion Trade Post” forum, or even in “General Discussion”. The “Players Helping Players” forum is just about the last place to choose in order to post a suggestion to the game developers. After all, it is mostly frequented by helpful players who are friendly enough to point out potential flaws in such suggestions/opinions.

I’m wondering why it isn’t in the “Trashcan” forum.

“ILLOGICAL. This is completely false and incorrect, for reasons I’ve already explained.”

Lol.

(Sorry, couldn’t resist)

crimlet.9872:

If 2 players want to do a trade with each other, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are or aren’t trying to scam each other. There are 2 possibilities.
1. Both of them want to scam the other.
2. One of them wants to scam the other.
3. Neither of them are trying to scam each other. They just want to do a simple trade.

Either way, they don’t know the intention of the other player.
…….

Ok….one last time (for the difficult to understand).

1) & 2) can’t happen with the TP.
3) is not necessary with the TP.
Their intentions are meaningless on the TP (meaning nobody has to worry about them).

AGAIN, this discussion is pointless.

LOL

Seriously though, the more I think about it, the more I see a scenario like this.

Player A: "WTT [exotic greatsword x], looking for exotic pistol y
Player B: oooo pretty I want!!
Player B: PM: What do you want for it? I have [exotic pistol w] or [exotic pistol z]
Player A: PM: I’ll take exotic pistol z.
Player A opens trade window and adds greatsword.
Player B adds transmuted pistol c with same skin as z
Players A and B accept trade.
Player A: PM: WTF!? this isn’t pistol z!!!
Player B: no response

I don’t know if transmuted items become soul bound or not (never use the skins) but with the ease of adding skins to items this would be a prime example of how the player to player trading WOULD be exploited.

edited to reflect items that would be unusable by a certain professions for the sake of realism and my OCD

Brother Grimm.5176:

crimlet.9872:

If 2 players want to do a trade with each other, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are or aren’t trying to scam each other. There are 2 possibilities.
1. Both of them want to scam the other.
2. One of them wants to scam the other.
3. Neither of them are trying to scam each other. They just want to do a simple trade.

Either way, they don’t know the intention of the other player.
…….

Ok….one last time (for the difficult to understand).

1) & 2) can’t happen with the TP.
3) is not necessary with the TP.
Their intentions are meaningless on the TP (meaning nobody has to worry about them).

AGAIN, this discussion is pointless.

I think the problem is, is that the OP is basing his argument on emotional reasons why someone wants to trade and people are arguing against it based on logic. This causes a disconnect because the two sides are not discussing the same things.

(crimlet-snipped lines from posts)

“But if players actually want to trade with each other then any idea of WTS is not a valid reason for stopping them from being able to do that.”

“Even if the effect were remotely significant, it’s not as worthwhile as actually being able to trade between players.”

“Just because you can’t imagine a situation where players would want to trade individually with any player in the game doesn’t mean that situation doesn’t exist.”

“No imaginary benefit to any sort of economy is worth not having a major important feature of a game economy.”

If I’m right, then all the arguments will continue to be circular. He is not impressed by a logical argument against it since his argument for it is based on how he feels about trading.

…other than misusing the word “illogical”, in a rather ironic way (thus creating endless yet annoying entertainment…..thus my theory he just might be trolling this along in a masterful way).

Brother Grimm.5176:

…other than misusing the word “illogical”, in a rather ironic way (thus creating endless yet annoying entertainment…..thus my theory he just might be trolling this along in a masterful way).

“ILLOGICAL. This is completely false and incorrect, for reasons I’ve already explained.”

Hmmm. This might be my new signature. It has a certain flair and charm to it.

“Illlogical”

Jornophelanthas.1475:

The problem is that the OP tends to compare a player-to-player trade window option to the strawman alternative that makes it look more favourable. Some examples:

- If people mention disadvantage X about trade windows, then he will compare trade windows to in-game mail transactions, which are even worse at X (ignoring any comparison with the trade post, which eliminates X.)

- If people mention disadvantage Y about trade windows, then he will compare trade windows to the trade post, which has disadvantage Z in comparison to trade windows (and ignoring any further mention of disadvantage Y, as well as any mention of in-game mail or guildbanks, which happen to not have disadvantage Z at all.)

This is false rhetoric, and more aimed at illegitimately disqualifying all other opinions, in order to reach the “inevitable” solution that there is only a single possible valid opinion, which happens to be the one held by the OP.

Really? It’s pretty clear that he’s saying that the mail system and BLT both have disadvantages a proper inter-player trading system doesn’t have. While a player-to-player trade system would have disadvantages over Mail and BLT, it also has advantages over both. It’s only “False rhetoric” and “Illegitimately disqualifying all other opinions” to reach a “single possible valid opinion” if he were advocating replacing mail and BLT with an inter-player trade system.

Then again, a trade system does invalidate several advantages of the BLT, such as WTSpam

Sartharina.3542:

Then again, a trade system does invalidate several advantages of the BLT, such as WTSpam

Since a trade window would get used to some extent, and would attract some use at the expense of sales that could otherwise have gone through the BLTP, I would say:

- The role of tradepost tax as a major goldsink diminishes —> increased risk of inflation of the game economy;
- Scamming increases as trade window offers more abuse opportunities than tradepost;
- Hackers/dupers try to abuse trade window to dupe expensive items (as has been done in other games) and sell these on the tradepost --> more damage to game economy;
- The efficiency of the tradepost server is that it only needs to connect to one player at a time for each transaction, which hardly interferes with the game server. Trade window requires simultaneous synchronized connection to two players —> cannot be done efficiently through a separate server --> more load on game servers;
- In addition to the above point, now add overflows/megaservers and people from different game servers wanting to trade —> separate game servers that need to synchronize --> even more server load (And you thought guild banks were sluggish…);
- WTS spam in chat appears, and pollutes chat channes;
- WTS spam in chat encourages more players to use trade windows instead of trading post —> snowball effect, strengthening all the above;

(Of course, all these arguments are illogical, for reasons already explained.)

Great points!

I think that the illogical tag is going to be used with almost every post now though

(Which is illogical for reasons already explained)

pdavis.8031:

Great points!

I think that the illogical tag is going to be used with almost every post now though

(Which is illogical for reasons already explained)

Somehow I don’t think OP will see the justice of it if he writes another “rebuttal” and the only answers are response posts of

“ILLOGICAL. This is completely false and incorrect, for reasons I’ve already explained.”

Lets bring some evidence into the discussion. Because evidence trumps theory.

1. An interface for trading with individual players makes it safe and easy to trade with eachother. There is no valid reason not to have it as it reduces scamming, and therefore, reduces invalid support tickets.

Eve Online shows how wrong you are on this point. Item exchange contracts are a secure player to player trading system. One player creates the contract, saying what they are offering and the specific things the other player will give them. Then another player comes along, reads the contract which says exactly what’s on offer. They hit accept, everything changes hands.
That’s as secure as player to player trading can get. It’s used for most of the scams that happen in Eve. The only major scam that doesn’t is ISK doubling (give me some ISK, I’ll give you twice that back)

3. WTS spamming has little to do with individual trades. It occurs because there’s no public interface for trading. WTS spam is negligible because of the existence of a public auction house in the game.

Eve Online once again shows that you are wrong. The trading post was copied from Eve’s market. But if you travel to Jita, the main trade hub of Eve Online, all you will see in local chat is the trade spam. Or scam spam, because this is Eve Online.

Either way, reducing WTS spam is not a valid reason to not have ability to trade individually.

How is “It works” not a valid reason ?
Because it does work to kill trade spam.

Now I’d like to see evidence about how good a secure player to player trading system will be for GW2 as a whole.

False and illogical, for reasons already explained.

Now that that’s out of the way. I also would like to see a real life example of a PtP trade sytem that is not vulnerable to misuse and abuse. I have played games with such a system (that is PtP trading) and seen nothing but chat spam, even outside of trade channel. Path of Exile is one. The whole system is based on PtP trading and a barter system. While cool, there is nothing to determine the value of the item. The one time I used it, was pretty sure I got scammed (ripped off) as the other player knew more of the value than I did having just started the game.

Although I will say, a game without any form of money other than loot was pretty cool.

^ That happened lots of times in GW1 too. Without a central trading post to instantly see the current value of the item you were selling, many unscrupulous traders tried to take advantage of newbies by offering to buy items at a price far below their real market value. (And you can bet that it would continue to happen if a PtP system were introduced since a lot of players would be too lazy to look up the TP to see what their item was worth first. Heck, I consider myself an experienced player and trader and even I don’t always bother looking up an item’s trade history all the time to see what the real price point is, just because I don’t have time.)

Astral Projections.7320:

Brother Grimm.5176:

…other than misusing the word “illogical”, in a rather ironic way (thus creating endless yet annoying entertainment…..thus my theory he just might be trolling this along in a masterful way).

“ILLOGICAL. This is completely false and incorrect, for reasons I’ve already explained.”

Hmmm. This might be my new signature. It has a certain flair and charm to it.

Maybe if we use this enough, it will become a new meme. When the OP used it, I ground my teeth and face desked, but now it brings a smile.

But then, that’s ILLOGICAL for reasons I’ve already explained.

Because the internet certainly needs more endless yet annoying entertainment….

….that is ILLOGICAL and completely false for reasons I’ve already explained.

(meh…..might be wearing a bit thin).

straying into being nasty just to be nasty.

Yargesh.4965:

straying into being nasty just to be nasty.

False. That is completely illogical for reasons already explained.

We are not being nasty, just to be nasty. We are trying to have a reasonable and intelligent discussion about the need and viability of introducing a player to player trading system. The OP can’t come up with a valid argument other than that statement to every rebuttal. The way the majority sees it, having a PtP trading system would be a bad idea, for very reasonable and logic reasons. We would welcome some other view points on the matter, but so far thats all we’ve seen.

(Plus it’s funny, not to make fun of the OP but it can apply to almost ANYTHING)

Yargesh.4965:

straying into being nasty just to be nasty.

For some obscure reason it annoys people a little when they put in a post laying out the flaws in his argument concerning the effects on inflation or the number of scams and he responds with

ILLOGICAL. This is completely false and incorrect, for reasons I’ve already explained.”

When it was the “reasons he had already explained” that they were showing as false and incorrect. If someone won’t put in an honest effort to address counter arguments, it’s not surprising the thread goes downhill.