Guild Wars 2

I can’t seem to find any interface to trade with another player. Such as in every mmo game. I don’t get it.

Like other than putting stuff in the BLT for public auction, there’s no way to trade with actual players?

You can mail items to other players – if that accounts for anything. But you only have (I think) like 5 slots per item. And you can send gold as well. With gold I’d be careful, they might mistake you passing on gold as gold selling.

There is, you can mail one item and the said player sends you the payment, for example. I believe that’s how it used to work during the beta when there was no TP – but im not sure since i didn’t play back then, just saw someone talkin about it.

As you can imagine, while this can solve your problem it also got some risks, it is up to the player to either decide to do it or not.

There is no way to trade with other players. The closest you can get is one player sending the items/gold by mail and then the other player sends his part of the trade. If you can trust the player who sends second.

As for why this is done, that’s simple. With no way to trade directly with other players there is no incentive for WTS spam.
Can you think of a better way to keep map chat free of WTS spam ?

I know about the item mailing thing. That’s completely different. It’s not an interface for trading. You can send somebody something, and they can run off without ever sending you anything back.

Preventing players from trading is probably the worst way of preventing wts spam. If any sort of spamming is against TOS, then simply ban anybody who is doing it. Every game, players are able to trade with each other through an actual interface.

The BLT is enough to eliminate wts in chat lines. Just stick it on there to sell. But if players actually want to trade with each other, then any idea of WTS is not a valid reason for stopping them from being able to do that.

crimlet.9872:

Preventing players from trading is probably the worst way of preventing wts spam.

Obviously that isn’t true, as we don’t see WTS spams with the current lack of a user trade interface

Im not sure if that’s the reason, but it may be, i always saw it more like they forced players on TP as an efficient way of sinking gold. I don’t think it is wrong, and if you happen to sell or buy a really expensive item you could always use the said mail option. I wouldn’t be surprised if they added a trande option sometime later on, but right now it can’t be helped.

I don’t understand why they don’t have an option to trade in the first place, mailing opens up a window for scamming

Unfortunately there isn’t any C.O.D trading feature in this game, the only way to do fair trade is via trading post.

Trading post serves as a gold sink system in this game as it removes currency from the game (the transaction fee).

OK. I hopefully they fix it so we can have a way to trade with each other. Because the mail system isn’t setup for actual secure trading.

Pokecenter.3548:

crimlet.9872:

Preventing players from trading is probably the worst way of preventing wts spam.

Obviously that isn’t true, as we don’t see WTS spams with the current lack of a user trade interface

Im not sure if that’s the reason, but it may be, i always saw it more like they forced players on TP as an efficient way of sinking gold. I don’t think it is wrong, and if you happen to sell or buy a really expensive item you could always use the said mail option. I wouldn’t be surprised if they added a trande option sometime later on, but right now it can’t be helped.

At best that is a minor part of it. It has more to do with not having to deal with(or at least less of them) scams, at least that is what Gaile mentioned in one of her posts. It was a pretty long time a go if you want to dig it up. WTS spam isn’t actually a big issue. In GW1 they automatically redirected all WTS/WTB/WTT message to the trade channel so they could have done something similar if that was the main concern.

It is highly unlikely that they will ever put in player to player trading. Not only is it a major gold sink but it keeps the number of scams to a minimum as you can see from what Gaile has to say about it.

Gaile Gray
ArenaNet Support Liaison
“Yes. Please use the Trading Post. Please tell your friends — even your sworn enemies — to use the Trading Post. If we all use the Trading Post, scammers are out of business in the blink of an eye!”

And:
“The devs created the Trading Post to give you a safe and secure means of trading and selling items. I consider TP fees as “insurance that the other player will play fairly” so I don’t try to avoid them. I encourage you and every player to use the TP for all transactions.”

Ya BLT is a good way to publicly trade items. But there is no valid reason to not let players trade between each other. It can’t be done on BLT. If there’s any problems with scammers, then find other solutions. Not get rid of a standard game dynamic that allows players to trade with eachother one to one.

crimlet.9872:

OK. I hopefully they fix it so we can have a way to trade with each other. Because the mail system isn’t setup for actual secure trading.

Nothing is broken, so there is nothing to fix. This is a game design decision, not an oversight or mistake. (For the same reason, it is not possible to drop items on the ground either.)

Indeed, the mailing system is not a secure way for trading. It is meant for players to give gifts to their friends.

Only the trading post is a safe (though anonymous) way to trade with strangers. It is effortless, as you don’t need to wait or even stay online to sell an item. Additionally, the trading post is a single system across all servers, so it is not limited (as you are) to the instance you happen to be in.

Most of the advantages of not having a personal player-to-player trading option have been listed above already, but bear repeating:
- No WTS spam in mapchat. Also, no WTB spam in mapchat either.
- No scamming between players (unless you are gullible enough to trade through in-game mail).
- No hacking/duping attempts by players trying to deliberately abuse their game client with a trade window open.
- Tradepost fees (15% of all sales) keep the in-game economy healthy, by preventing exponential inflation of in-game currency over time.

This will not be fixed. They intended that player to player (secure) trades not be possible. I completely eliminates the possibility of player scamming.

shadowpass.4236:

I don’t understand why they don’t have an option to trade in the first place, mailing opens up a window for scamming

Because they want everything to be sold through the TP, with the TP tax.

crimlet.9872:

Ya BLT is a good way to publicly trade items. But there is no valid reason to not let players trade between each other. It can’t be done on BLT. If there’s any problems with scammers, then find other solutions. Not get rid of a standard game dynamic that allows players to trade with eachother one to one.

Why would you want to trade with players that you can’t trust enough to use the mail system?

Trading is obsolete. You’re basically asking for them to give you an abacus because you prefer not to use the calculator.

Lankybrit.4598:

shadowpass.4236:

I don’t understand why they don’t have an option to trade in the first place, mailing opens up a window for scamming

Because they want everything to be sold through the TP, with the TP tax.

Anet does not earn any revenue from the TP tax….it’s just a gold sink (that ALL MMOs need to have). Not having to handle scammer support tickets DOES cost them less overhead, however.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Lankybrit.4598:

shadowpass.4236:

I don’t understand why they don’t have an option to trade in the first place, mailing opens up a window for scamming

Because they want everything to be sold through the TP, with the TP tax.

Anet does not earn any revenue from the TP tax….it’s just a gold sink (that ALL MMOs need to have). Not having to handle scammer support tickets DOES cost them less overhead, however.

Yeah, that’s what I meant. They want you to consider the tax when selling, and want to have the gold sink there.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Most of the advantages of not having a personal player-to-player trading option have been listed above already, but bear repeating:
- No WTS spam in mapchat. Also, no WTB spam in mapchat either.
- No scamming between players (unless you are gullible enough to trade through in-game mail).
- No hacking/duping attempts by players trying to deliberately abuse their game client with a trade window open.
- Tradepost fees (15% of all sales) keep the in-game economy healthy, by preventing exponential inflation of in-game currency over time.

-Having an auction is what has significant effect on limiting wts spam. Not taking away trade between players. Even if the effect were remotely significant, it’s not as worthwhile as actually being able to trade between players.

-It does the opposite of preventing scamming. Without a secure way to trade it is far far easier to scam players. All you have to do is tell them you will give them something in return once you receive what they give you. Then don’t give them anything. Individual trading interface prevents this.

-Effect on keeping the economy healthy is incorrect. Those fees sink money when buying and selling on public auction. It doesn’t mean it affects economy in negative way if players are able to trade between each other individually without any money getting sunk. It’s not a valid reason to prevent players from being able to trade with eachother. It doesn’t make the economy any more or less healthier to prevent players from trading with each other.

I’m not sure what source your getting your reasons from, but I’d definitely like to see it.

mtpelion.4562:

Why would you want to trade with players that you can’t trust enough to use the mail system?

Same reason you would trade anything on the planet.

crimlet.9872

-It does the opposite of preventing scamming. Without a secure way to trade it is far far easier to scam players. All you have to do is tell them you will give them something in return once you receive what they give you. Then don’t give them anything. Individual trading interface prevents this.

That is what I meant by “gullible”. Do you ever buy anything on the internet that requires payment in advance, when the seller is anonymous and cannot be traced (reliably) to either a person or company that can be held liable in case of non-delivery?

crimlet.9872

I’m not sure what source your getting your reasons from, but I’d definitely like to see it.

At least I presented some arguments. The arguments you give amount to little:

• “Other games have it.”
  Guild Wars 2 is not “other games”. This is Guild Wars 2, and it has a policy of not blindly including elements from “other games” that are really just stale elements of the genre, and allow various kinds of abuse (both of other players and of the game economy in general).

• “I want it.”
  Guild Wars 2 offers three viable alternative to do the same thing (i.e. trading with other players).
  One is the trading post, which offers reduced risk. The only costs are a 15% seller tax, and the fact that you can no longer choose who you are trading with.
  The other is in-game mail, which allows you to gift and trade items with players whom you actually trust enough to use insecure means.
  Yet a third is the guild bank, which allows a guild to manage permissions about who is allowed to deposit and/or withdraw which items from guild storage.
  What functionality exactly would a trade window add to this? (Other than “I want it”?)

There is no valid argument for not having a trade interface. The argument for having it is that it prevents players from getting scammed out of their money/items. The only reason any game has a trading interface is to prevent scamming.

There are games with no auction house. This game has it. Why? Because it makes it easy and convenient put stuff up for sale, and find items you need that other players might have. Whether they have some sort of fee to sink money or not. It’s a good feature.

So in any game, action house and ability to trade with individually with each other are standard things that games implement for player interaction. Just like having a party system.

A trading interface makes it safe and easy for players to trade items with each other with less risk of somebody running off with what you give them. Trading interface or not, liability or tracing anybody has nothing to do with it.

Nobody is held liable for any trades that go on within the game interface because there’s nothing to be held liable for. It’s not against Terms of Use to promise somebody something in return for something else. Then take what they give you without giving back what you promise in return. Scam or not, it’s not what the Terms of Use considers when referring to scamming players for account information.

You can take what people give you, and run. Without giving back what you promised in return. It’s perfectly fine in any game and not a violation of anything. There’s no need to trace them because there’s nothing to report as they haven’t violated any actual rules of conduct according to what scamming actually is which has to do with stealing accounts or portraying staff in order to fish for personally identifying information.

As for so called ‘scamming’ during game play with trading between players, it is completely opposite logic to say it’s easier to scam somebody if there is a trade interface. When the whole purpose of any game even having a trade interface is to prevent that sort of scamming. With a trade interface, both players have to put both of their items/money in. And both have to accept what’s locked in there in order for the trade to go through. This is done specifically for no other reason than to prevent players form getting scammed.

So your whole argument about a trading interface increasing scamming is like saying putting locks on the car make it easier to steal. Or putting locks on your house or safe make it easier to break into.

Lets all have lockers at the gym and not allow locks on them because it will make it easier for people to steal what you put into your locker.

crimlet.9872:

There is no valid argument for not having a trade interface.

I already gave you the most valid argument. Player to Player Trading is unnecessary because it is obsolete.

Get with the times man, the Trading Post is how you trade things in today’s world.

NEVER trade by email, you’ll most likely get scammed and when you do don’t come creating support tickets.

In GW1, a trade interface was added to the LFG interface. This was invariably packed full and virtually impossible to navigate. It was also limited to the city that you happened to be in since the game was instance and you would only run into other people in outposts. To do a trade you would message the player and then you’d meet up and open a trade window and only when both players had accepted the trade would a trade go through. Seeing as the items in GW1 had more randomness in stats vs skins it meant that it was very hard to get duplicates of items unless they were obtained from merchants or crafted.

At GW2 pre-release, the TP didn’t work and the market hadn’t been established so the only way to trade was to WTS spam at any congregation of players. So this could be in Black Citadel, the Grove, LA, Rata Sum, but also at the various crafting outposts in Plains of Ashford, Queensdale etc. As the game was new and people tended to run into one another a lot there was a great deal of trust in each other. I played from pre-release and made a number of trades with players and had no issues.

The way that items work in GW2 mean that you more or less must have a centralised trading platform. The main argument for this is economical. In GW1, you could get weapons with one skin but completely different stats that were randomly generated. In GW2, the ability to craft weapons with stats of your choice means it is easy to have vast quantities of weapons with the same stat. I.e they become bulk, low individual value commodities. The trading company acts as a bulk commodities trading market, much like what you’d find in stock exchanges around the world, where you can buy large quantities of things like iron, wool etc.

One could argue that in the real world there is also the ability to conduct person to person trades of single high value items like homes and cars so why not have one where you could trade things like precursors and legendries? As with real world trades, there is a significantly higher chance of fraud. Also, not having something to suck out a currency from a market, as we see with trading company commissions, is one step towards hyperinflation as there will be an enormous amount of gold floating about. Waypoint costs are paltry compared to a players income. Repair costs, as low as they were, have been removed from the game. TC fees were the biggest built in currency sink in the game.
Precursors are pricey now for their rarity, but can you imagine their price in a market where the players had access to limitless amounts of gold without anything to spend it on? A real world example of this level of hyperinflation occurred in Zimbabwe where a pair of pants cost 500billion Zimbabwean dollars and a loaf of bread cost 20billion. The exchange rate of the Zimbabwean dollar to USD was 1 quadrillion ZD to 100 USD. This happened because the government kept printing money and putting it into the economy.

Economics aren’t my specialty but a cursory understanding of economics make obvious the advantages of a trading company over the advantages of being able to conduct player to player trades.

The OP obviously has an agenda and is making blatantly nonfactual and illogical claims to prove an invalid point. His arguments are so bad I’m not sure if he is trolling or just unable to grasp the concept that something that is not needed is simply not needed.

If you are truly serious about this issue, go post it as a suggestion in the BL forum (and I’ll get some snacks to watch the fireworks).

It’s simple really, you have two options:

1) If you want to trade with a stranger you can use the trading post. You list the item you want to sell, or search for the one you want to buy and trade it. Because the transaction is anonymous and the two sides are distinct from each other it’s even more scam-proof than a trade window. Scammers can’t swap in a different item at the last moment or make false claims about the item they’re selling because the buyer will have searched for exactly the item they want.

2) If you want to trade with a friend you can use mail. It’s not secure but since they’re your friends you should be able to trust them.

I can’t imagine a situation where you’d want to trade with a specific person who is also a completely stranger you don’t know if you can trust, so the absence of a trade window shouldn’t be an issue.

Danikat.8537:

I can’t imagine a situation where you’d want to trade with a specific person who is also a completely stranger you don’t know if you can trust

Just because you can’t imagine a situation where players would want to trade individually with any player in the game doesn’t mean that situation doesn’t exist. Even if you actually have friends who play the game, it’s illogical to say there’s no such thing as a case where they will rip you off, and run away with what you give them.

Dean Calaway.9718:

NEVER trade by email, you’ll most likely get scammed and when you do don’t come creating support tickets.

Right.

Azrael.4960:

cursory understanding of economics make obvious the advantages of a trading company over the advantages of being able to conduct player to player trades.

Incorrect. You’re comparing 2 completely different trading interfaces as if one should be used and another shouldn’t. BLT is for public trading publicly. I never said we should get rid of BLT. It’s a way for players to put their items up for sale, and easily shop for items they’re looking for.

Yet if 2 players want to trade something as individuals, there is no secure interface for doing so. This isn’t about replacing BLT.

mtpelion.4562:

crimlet.9872:

There is no valid argument for not having a trade interface.

I already gave you the most valid argument. Player to Player Trading is unnecessary because it is obsolete.

Get with the times man, the Trading Post is how you trade things in today’s world.

Trading post doesn’t have ability to trade with individual players. It’s meant for trading publicly. Hence your argument is completely invalid.

1. An interface for trading with individual players makes it safe and easy to trade with eachother. There is no valid reason not to have it as it reduces scamming, and therefore, reduces invalid support tickets. It is illogical to claim that scamming will increase as a result of implementing such a feature that reduces scamming. Just like saying locks on your door will increase your probability of getting robbed.

2. Any insignificant effect that having such an interface has on the economy will never be more significant than the benefit of being able to do it. Solely because players have an ability to trade items individually makes it beneficial to the purpose of economy.

3. WTS spamming has little to do with individual trades. It occurs because there’s no public interface for trading. WTS spam is negligible because of the existence of a public auction house in the game. Either way, reducing WTS spam is not a valid reason to not have ability to trade individually.

4. A trading interface significantly reduces the amount of fraud and scams. Because both players would have to accept the trade, the person who gets the item first can’t run away with it.

ILLOGICAL – Just because auction house is secure, players trading individually doesn’t need to be secure. And providing secure measures for players to trade individually will make it easier for them to get robbed/scammed than without secure trading interface. Just because trading on auction house is secure.

@crimlet

It’s not really the players that you need to convince, it’s ANet. For them the current setup has two big pluses. One is the gold sink to keep inflation down. The other is the decreased business cost to them from zero scams when people use the TP.

Your idea would cost them several ways. One is the need to more closely monitor inflation and possibly decrease rewards for everyone if a substantial number use player to player trades. The other is the increased number of scams, as no personal trading can be made scam free. So they would have an increased workload for support, increased payroll, increased numbers of people banned for scamming and possibly decreased rewards to all players to offset inflation.

Any suggestion you make needs to be worth the costs to them.

A player to player trade interface also wouldn’t completely eliminate scamming. GW1 had this system too, and plenty of people still got scammed. There will always be people who are naive or not paying attention. Here’s a few methods scammers used:

1. Put an item that has an identical icon in the trade window, but is a much cheaper or worthless item. In GW2, imagine if somebody was offering to sell Dusk, but instead put in the much cheaper Naegling (that shares the same skin and icon), and a player just glanced at it (or are blinded by the thought of getting Dusk for cheaper) and accepted it.

2. They put the coin in gold instead of platinum (platinum was the higher currency in GW1). This was easily missed if you weren’t paying attention.

3. Some icons made it difficult to read the exact quantity of the item due to colour schemes etc. Scammers would put lower quantities of the item knowing it was harder for the buyer to see exactly how much they were getting.

GW2’s TP completely eliminates scamming if all players used it, so why would ANet hamper themselves by introducing player-to-player trading and opening them up to support tickets and extra work?

And as Astral pointed out above, the TP serves a vital secondary function by acting as the game’s main gold sink, helping to keep inflation in check. If most or all players bypassed it, the economy would be in a much worse state. (Or if you kept the taxes even on player to player trades, then what would be the point of having individual trading?)

Astral Projections.7320:

@crimlet

It’s not really the players that you need to convince, it’s ANet. For them the current setup has two big pluses. One is the gold sink to keep inflation down. The other is the decreased business cost to them from zero scams when people use the TP.

Your idea would cost them several ways. One is the need to more closely monitor inflation and possibly decrease rewards for everyone if a substantial number use player to player trades. The other is the increased number of scams, as no personal trading can be made scam free. So they would have an increased workload for support, increased payroll, increased numbers of people banned for scamming and possibly decreased rewards to all players to offset inflation.

Any suggestion you make needs to be worth the costs to them.

None of those are actually an effect of having trade interface between players that reduces the ability to scam players. I already discussed this. Scamming in the Terms of Use has to do with people getting scammed for accounts/account information. As I already thoroughly elaborated on.

Again as I already elaborated on thoroughly. Scamming in terms of items and trade has nothing to do with Terms of Service and trade interface reduces that sort of ‘scamming’ anyway because it forces the person you’re trading with to actually put their items in before the trade goes through. As I completely elaborated already.

It’s completely illogical to claim that scamming will increase if an interface is implemented solely to prevent scamming. That’s like saying putting locks on your locker/house/car will increase the chance of items in there getting stolen. I’ve already went over this.

A. If any player feels like they’re getting scammed in term normal disputes with other players regarding items and currency. And it has nothing to do with personal info or account scamming. Then there is no point in reporting it because it’s not against Terms of Use/Rules of Conduct.

B. Having a secure trading interface will reduce any sort of reports as it makes it more difficult for players to get scammed out of their money/gear.

I already went over this. You’re just repeating the same illogical argument that making it more difficult to get robbed will increase amount of players getting robbed.

As for economy, the cost to the company will not change in any significant way by developing and implementing a simple method for individual trades which happens to be a beneficial part of the economy making trades between players secure.

All you’re doing is developing an interface so players can trade with each other without getting scammed/robbed. It’s not expensive or complicated. It’s a standard aspect of any mmo, and benefits players ability to safely trade with each other. Other than the small cost of development, any sort of cost of monitoring the game economy remains unchanged. The BLT will still sink gold.

Zaxares.5419:

A player to player trade interface also wouldn’t completely eliminate scamming.

Where did I say that having a safe way to trade completely eliminates scamming? Does putting locks on your house/car completely eliminate houses and cars from getting robbed? Those examples you pointed out are correct, but Irrelevant. As you say, people can get scammed on a trade interface just like anywhere. Irrelevant.

A trade interface still significantly reduces players from getting robbed/scammed. Which therefore, reduces invalid support tickets (as other players doing that form of scamming isn’t against Terms of Use).

As I explained and elaborated on thoroughly, it significantly reduces that sort of scamming which is exponentially more probable without a secure interface for trade. Trading interface, reduces invalid support tickets. I already completely explained this thoroughly. It is illogical to claim that something that specifically reduces scamming will increase invalid support tickets about scamming. I already completely explained this thoroughly. Stop repeating the same illogical argument.

Zaxares.5419:

GW2’s TP completely eliminates scamming if all players used it, so why would ANet hamper themselves by introducing player-to-player trading and opening them up to support tickets and extra work?

Illogical. Currently without trading interface, it’s easier for players to get scammed when attempting to trade individually as explained thoroughly.
Individual trading interface = less invalid support tickets.

Zaxares.5419:

If most or all players bypassed it, the economy would be in a much worse state.

Yet players overall aren’t bypassing it. The occasions in which a player wants to trade specifically with another player have never and will never have any significant effect on the BLT. With a legitimate individual trading interface implemented or currently without one.

@crimlet

As you yourself said
4. A trading interface significantly reduces the amount of fraud and scams. Because both players would have to accept the trade, the person who gets the item first can’t run away with it.

The number of fraud and scams using the trading post is zero. Even if a trading interface “significantly reduces the number of fraud and scams” it will be still higher than zero. Any increase in fraud and scams means more tickets to support. More workload. More cost to the company in terms of work hours and payroll. More people who get banned for scamming others.

In return your arguments that are needed to convince ANet are
1) I want. Not convincing as one person saying ‘I don’t want’ counterbalances your vote.
2) other games have it. Not convincing as all games don’t need to have all features and ANet feels their trading post positives outweighs the negatives.
3) the scam rate will be low. Not convincing as the scam rate with the TP post is zero.

Astral Projections.7320:

@crimlet

As you yourself said
4. A trading interface significantly reduces the amount of fraud and scams. Because both players would have to accept the trade, the person who gets the item first can’t run away with it.

The number of fraud and scams using the trading post is zero. Even if a trading interface “significantly reduces the number of fraud and scams” it will be still higher than zero. Any increase in fraud and scams means more tickets to support. More workload. More cost to the company in terms of work hours and payroll. More people who get banned for scamming others.

In return your arguments that are needed to convince ANet are
1) I want. Not convincing as one person saying ‘I don’t want’ counterbalances your vote.
2) other games have it. Not convincing as all games don’t need to have all features and ANet feels their trading post positives outweighs the negatives.
3) the scam rate will be low. Not convincing as the scam rate with the TP post is zero.

Completely wrong. I’ve already explained. Individual trading interface reduces scams. It’s far easier for players to get scammed in individual trades without a secure trading interface. I’ve already explained and elaborated on why this is so. Stop repeating the same illogical argument that an interface that specifically reduces scams/invalid support tickets will increase it.

Also, trading post doesn’t allow for individual trades. So has little to do with current amount of scamming occurring when attempting to trade individually without a secure trading interface.

ANet has a system put in that has zero % chance of scams and that’s what they want you to use.

Gaile Gray
ArenaNet Support Liaison
“Yes. Please use the Trading Post. Please tell your friends — even your sworn enemies — to use the Trading Post. If we all use the Trading Post, scammers are out of business in the blink of an eye!”

Any argument you use for an additional system for them to put in that by its nature is not scam proof needs to address this.

Astral Projections.7320:

ANet has a system put in that has zero % chance of scams and that’s what they want you to use.

Gaile Gray
ArenaNet Support Liaison
“Yes. Please use the Trading Post. Please tell your friends — even your sworn enemies — to use the Trading Post. If we all use the Trading Post, scammers are out of business in the blink of an eye!”

Any argument you use for an additional system for them to put in that by its nature is not scam proof needs to address this.

ILLOGICAL – Just because auction house is secure, players trading individually doesn’t need to be secure. And providing secure measures for players to trade individually will make it easier for them to get robbed/scammed than without secure trading interface. Just because trading on auction house is secure.

The fact of the matter is, regardless of how secure the BLT is when conducting public trades, there is no secure interface for individiual trades. Hence the whole point of this thread.

The auction house is a benefit for GW2 and most mmos to have as it makes it convenient and safe for players to buy and sell gear publicly. Rather than trying to use some outside means of trading with one another.

CONVENIENCE – For example, it is far more convenient to post something you want to sell, than to spam the chat to seek buyers for everything you’re selling.

SECURITY – Public trades conducted within the BLT are anonymous and secure because players must put the items into it in order to sell it.

However the BLT or any auction in any game doesn’t in any way shape or form reduce scams when trading individually as it has nothing to do with individual trades between players. Which is currently done through the mail system. Meaning far larger increase in scamming during individual trades.

As stated and explained to death over and over again, an interface that protects players from getting scammed when trading individually reduces scams and support tickets. As proven over and over again to death, claiming that such an interface increases scams and support tickets is illogical.

Then why trade individually? If you want to send gold and gifts between friends, the mail system lets you do that perfectly fine. If you want to buy/sell something at a specific price, the TP already lets you do that (although you may need to wait longer if your price is not near equilibrium). The only obvious reason I can see for wanting a personal player-to-player trading system is a desire to avoid paying the TP tax, which as you yourself agree, is needed for the game’s overall health.

Zaxares.5419:

Then why trade individually?

The point of your question doesn’t make sense. Why want to trade publicly? Why even play the game? Such questions could have multiple different answers. The easiest way to answer that question is that the reason depends on the individual player.

It’s not that complicated.

As you stated yourself there is a tax involved when using BLT. Players wanting to trade with eachother would be taxed if using the BLT so there would be a loss involved during the trade that isn’t even a public trade. The loss is fine when trading publicly/anonymously when considering the convenience the BLT provides in terms of pricing and putting items up for sale.

There’s no reason to tax 2 players who just want to trade with eachother.

Another reason is trades that don’t involve currency. Players who just want to trade items can’t do so on the BLT because they have to use currency.

The BLT is for public trading. The BLT or GW2 in general has no interface for players who want to trade with each other individually for reasons that could go on and on to infinity.

Whatever the reason, players who wish to trade with each other outside of an anonymous public auction house should be able to do so using a secure interface that is standard in every mmo. It will not increase scams. It will not have a bad effect on the economy. In fact it is a normal part of the purpose of even having an economy and reduces scams.

Fundamentally there’s no reason why players trading on the TP should be taxed either, but the tax was put in as GW2’s primary means of fighting inflation. (And considering the horror show that was D3 before the latest expansion came out, GW2 has been incredibly successful in that regard.) Ergo, in GW2, trade is intended to be taxed. Players who want to circumvent this should be discouraged.

I am adamant in my belief that allowing players an in-built player-to-player trading system WILL increase scams, because scammers will immediately start using it to try and hook unwary or greedy players. (It’s just the way the world works, sadly.) Currently the default response of players seeing someone trying to trade outside of the TP is, “Are you trying to scam someone?” It’s unfortunate, but as I see it, it’s the lesser of two evils.

There is another point you haven’t addressed.

ANet has a scam proof way to trade between people. At this point when someone does get scammed, while ANet does punish the scammer their policy is to not get back the scammed item as those items are commonly sold, salvaged or given away by the time the ticket works it’s way through the system.

So if ANet puts in another system of trading then it’s a system they put their seal of approval on. People who get scammed using a player to player trading system that ANet specifically puts in for the purpose of bypassing the TP will reasonably expect to get their items and gold back. This means that anet will have to research the claims of what was scammed and where it went, which will increase the amount of work support has to do and how long it takes to clear a ticket.

And how will ANet return the items and gold? Many items will be sold to others or salvaged. Should they make the items out of thin air, contributing to inflation? Should the items sold to people innocently buying them be taken away? If the scammer bought items with scammed gold, should the sales be reversed? What about people who innocently sold to a scammer and got scammed gold and then bought items with that gold?

It’s not as easy as you might think.

Danikat.8537:

It’s simple really, you have two options:

1) If you want to trade with a stranger you can use the trading post. You list the item you want to sell, or search for the one you want to buy and trade it. Because the transaction is anonymous and the two sides are distinct from each other it’s even more scam-proof than a trade window. Scammers can’t swap in a different item at the last moment or make false claims about the item they’re selling because the buyer will have searched for exactly the item they want.

2) If you want to trade with a friend you can use mail. It’s not secure but since they’re your friends you should be able to trust them.

I can’t imagine a situation where you’d want to trade with a specific person who is also a completely stranger you don’t know if you can trust, so the absence of a trade window shouldn’t be an issue.

I can think of several cases where I don’t fully know someone, but would love to trade with them. One of the best parts of Guild Wars 2 is the “Casual Community and grouping.” Being able to trade with other players when crafting in major cities or out in other crafting stations in the world would be good. Trading loot and consumables with people in a Zerg/Train during downtime between runs.

Then again… sending a random low-level character I meet a level-appropriate high-quality sword in a mail titled “It’s Dangerous to go Alone” is something I really need to try some day.

Zaxares.5419:

Fundamentally there’s no reason why players trading on the TP should be taxed either, but the tax was put in as GW2’s primary means of fighting inflation. (And considering the horror show that was D3 before the latest expansion came out, GW2 has been incredibly successful in that regard.) Ergo, in GW2, trade is intended to be taxed. Players who want to circumvent this should be discouraged.

I am adamant in my belief that allowing players an in-built player-to-player trading system WILL increase scams, because scammers will immediately start using it to try and hook unwary or greedy players. (It’s just the way the world works, sadly.) Currently the default response of players seeing someone trying to trade outside of the TP is, “Are you trying to scam someone?” It’s unfortunate, but as I see it, it’s the lesser of two evils.

Any flaws D3 may have had has no relevance to GW2 which is an mmorpg not a single player rpg with co-op capability. Each player in D3 is in their own world. There is no need for a trade function in a single player rpg because there is no other player in the game environment other than the npcs.

MMORPGs with players interacting in an open environment is completely different from a single player rpg. A secure trading interface not only benefits any mmorpg, it’s pretty much expected and known as a standard aspect of any mmorpg. It will especially be good for GW2 as it reduces scamming which reduces amount of invalid reports to developer.

Trading interface also reduces questions of people asking if you’re trying to scam somebody. Without a secure trade interface, every player that wants to trade with another player will be ask if they intend to rob them. Because without a trade interface, they can do that. without any problem. Just take the players items and run.

No mmorpg taxes individual trades between players because it’s not necessary. It’s a standard aspect of mmorpg economy that benefits every player. There is absolutely no benefit in not having one.

As it stands, without a trade interface, a player cannot safely trade with another player without a huge risk of getting robbed period. It makes it practically impossible for players to trade with each other on an individual basis. No imaginary benefit to any sort of economy is worth not having a major important feature of a game economy.

Astral Projections.7320:

There is another point you haven’t addressed.

ANet has a scam proof way to trade between people. At this point when someone does get scammed, while ANet does punish the scammer their policy is to not get back the scammed item as those items are commonly sold, salvaged or given away by the time the ticket works it’s way through the system.

So if ANet puts in another system of trading then it’s a system they put their seal of approval on. People who get scammed using a player to player trading system that ANet specifically puts in for the purpose of bypassing the TP will reasonably expect to get their items and gold back. This means that anet will have to research the claims of what was scammed and where it went, which will increase the amount of work support has to do and how long it takes to clear a ticket.

And how will ANet return the items and gold? Many items will be sold to others or salvaged. Should they make the items out of thin air, contributing to inflation? Should the items sold to people innocently buying them be taken away? If the scammer bought items with scammed gold, should the sales be reversed? What about people who innocently sold to a scammer and got scammed gold and then bought items with that gold?

It’s not as easy as you might think.

As explained profusely on this thread, interface for secure individual trade bypasses nothing. BLT has no interface for individual trades. You cannot bypass something that doesn’t exist.

The whole point of having an interface for individuals to trade with each other is to reduce scams.

Also as explained profusely, there is nothing valid to report. As losing your gear in a trade that went sour doesn’t mean anybody has violated the Terms of Use. All you’re doing is restating the same illogical arguments that have already been explained.

An interface for individuals to trade cannot and will not bypass or stop anybody from trading on the public auction. The only way to stop players from trading on the BLT is to actually shut it down. Individual trading on BLT cannot be bypassed with implementation of individual trading interface as there is no individual trading on the BLT.

As it stands, without a trade interface, a player cannot safely trade with another player without a huge risk of getting robbed period. It makes it practically impossible for players to trade with each other on an individual basis. No imaginary benefit to any sort of economy is worth not having a major important feature of a game economy.

It’s pretty simple. An auction interface for trading items publicly improves the overall state of economic interactivity between players. Any mmorpg without one suffers considerably in terms of economic interactivity because not having one makes it considerably more difficult and more risky to trade items/currency publicly.

The same exact thing goes for having an interface for players to trade with eachother on an individual basis. I have explained in great length and detail it does nothing, but benefit economic interactivity between players. As it makes it far more secure to trade with other players.

Both an in-game auction house and an individual trade interface do nothing other than improve players ability to conduct economic transactions with one another much safer and easier than without one of them or without both of them.

If you want to trade publicly use the auction. If you want to trade individually, there currently is no safe way to do that.

It is just as illogical to claim that it benefits economic interactivity between players to have no individual trade interface as it is to claim that it benefits economic interactivity between players to have no auction house.

crimlet.9872:

Zaxares.5419:

Then why trade individually?

The point of your question doesn’t make sense. Why want to trade publicly? Why even play the game? Such questions could have multiple different answers. The easiest way to answer that question is that the reason depends on the individual player.

It’s not that complicated.

As you stated yourself there is a tax involved when using BLT. Players wanting to trade with eachother would be taxed if using the BLT so there would be a loss involved during the trade that isn’t even a public trade. The loss is fine when trading publicly/anonymously when considering the convenience the BLT provides in terms of pricing and putting items up for sale.

There’s no reason to tax 2 players who just want to trade with eachother.

Another reason is trades that don’t involve currency. Players who just want to trade items can’t do so on the BLT because they have to use currency.

The BLT is for public trading. The BLT or GW2 in general has no interface for players who want to trade with each other individually for reasons that could go on and on to infinity.

Whatever the reason, players who wish to trade with each other outside of an anonymous public auction house should be able to do so using a secure interface that is standard in every mmo. It will not increase scams. It will not have a bad effect on the economy. In fact it is a normal part of the purpose of even having an economy and reduces scams.

An individual-to-individual trading interface has been proven time and time again in past games to never be unscammable. Anet spent an enormous amount of time in GW1 working and reworking the individual trading system because of repeated exploits and scams. The single thing that the vast majority of GW1 players, who did a lot of trading, asked for most was a single trading post. However, that wasn’t possible given the way the game worked so that had to be put off until GW2. The single biggest flaw in an individual-to-individual trading system is that no matter how secure Anet can try to make it, people will inevitably find a way to scam others. This is the nature of those sorts
of people. The trading company is 100% scam proof.

HOWEVER!

My suggestion would be for a direct player-to-player trading system, that would run through the trading company, for a reduced fee of course.

As an example. I list Dusk on the item trading post and ask for another item, say Zap, in return. Another player who decides that this swap is worth their while decides to take up the trade and responds to my post by clicking on the Trade button and popping in Zap, then completing the trade. The trading company then applies a small charge to both players, which could be linked to the item quality, for the use of the TC as an intermediary. This would retain the utility and security of the TC while also keeping a check on inflation.

This could also work for people seeking to complete T6 mats stacks. For example: I need 100 vials of powerful blood to complete my stack but I have surplus vicious fangs, vicious claws, ancient bones and armored scale. I list up a total of 100 of those mats in return for 100 blood. Someone who has surplus blood but a shortage of those mats would certainly jump at the chance to get their hands on some. Again, the BLTC charges a small fee for this trade, but significantly less than the standard 15%.

I believe that introducing a barter economy will improve the balance of wealth in the game. The market economy, as it stands now, the benefits go to hardcore farmers who can amass the quantities they need to make gold but also have the capital to buy out the lower priced goods to artificially bump up the price. This squeezes out a lot of players. Whereas, including a barter economy, especially for the high end goods, will mean that players can choose to trade item for item based on their subjective perceived worth as opposed to the artificial value imposed by the market. Marketeers will be forced to lower their prices as more people will go towards barter to obtain the goods they need, this in turn means that items listed on the open market will be more accessible to players without huge quantities of gold who may only need the item, have the gold but have nothing to trade for barter.

TL:DR Idea basically boils down to. “I have this item, I want that item, I am willing to give you this item in exchange if we share the same opinion that the two items are of equal value in our subjective view.”

As a final note to the OP: My previous post said nothing about you wanting to replace the BLTC with an individual trading system. It was pointing out the benefits of what the system does, and what the old system did, vs. your intention.

Azrael.4960:

An individual-to-individual trading interface has been proven time and time again in past games to never be unscammable. Anet spent an enormous amount of time in GW1 working and reworking the individual trading system because of repeated exploits and scams. The single thing that the vast majority of GW1 players, who did a lot of trading, asked for most was a single trading post. However, that wasn’t possible given the way the game worked so that had to be put off until GW2. The single biggest flaw in an individual-to-individual trading system is that no matter how secure Anet can try to make it, people will inevitably find a way to scam others. This is the nature of those sorts
of people. The trading company is 100% scam proof.

Completely and utterly incorrect. The auction house is good only for public trades. But has no feature for individual trades. There is no option for players who wish conduct a specific trade with a specific player.

As far as I know GW1 didn’t even have an action house. So any point your making about so-called problems in GW1 cannot be related to GW2 as those problems could have been easily solved by implementing an in-game auction house. Not by getting rid of individual trading interface.

An in-game auction house considerably reduces scamming as I have explained completely. There is no need for me to go over again how much benefit there is in terms of safety and convenience for players to be able to use an auction house as well as an individual trade interface.

Azrael.4960:

My suggestion would be for a direct player-to-player trading system, that would run through the trading company, for a reduced fee of course.

As an example. I list Dusk on the item trading post and ask for another item, say Zap, in return. Another player who decides that this swap is worth their while decides to take up the trade and responds to my post by clicking on the Trade button and popping in Zap, then completing the trade. The trading company then applies a small charge to both players, which could be linked to the item quality, for the use of the TC as an intermediary. This would retain the utility and security of the TC while also keeping a check on inflation.

This could also work for people seeking to complete T6 mats stacks. For example: I need 100 vials of powerful blood to complete my stack but I have surplus vicious fangs, vicious claws, ancient bones and armored scale. I list up a total of 100 of those mats in return for 100 blood. Someone who has surplus blood but a shortage of those mats would certainly jump at the chance to get their hands on some. Again, the BLTC charges a small fee for this trade, but significantly less than the standard 15%.

I believe that introducing a barter economy will improve the balance of wealth in the game. The market economy, as it stands now, the benefits go to hardcore farmers who can amass the quantities they need to make gold but also have the capital to buy out the lower priced goods to artificially bump up the price. This squeezes out a lot of players. Whereas, including a barter economy, especially for the high end goods, will mean that players can choose to trade item for item based on their subjective perceived worth as opposed to the artificial value imposed by the market. Marketeers will be forced to lower their prices as more people will go towards barter to obtain the goods they need, this in turn means that items listed on the open market will be more accessible to players without huge quantities of gold who may only need the item, have the gold but have nothing to trade for barter.

TL:DR Idea basically boils down to. “I have this item, I want that item, I am willing to give you this item in exchange if we share the same opinion that the two items are of equal value in our subjective view.”

I disagree with this suggestion.
1. It unnecessarily over complicates the BLT. The BLT as it is makes it easy. If have something, but want something, just sell it at market price. Then buy the other thing that you want at market price.

2. It doesn’t solve the problem of players having no capability of securely trading items with another specific player.

Azrael.4960:

As a final note to the OP: My previous post said nothing about you wanting to replace the BLTC with an individual trading system.

How so? Even from this post describing how GW1 works, you make it seem adding an individual trade interface will replace the auction house. You described all kinds of problems related to GW1. Yet none of the problems you describe have anything to do with having an individual trading interface. All of those problems have to do with not having a public trading interface as well.

I’ve stated clearly and thoroughly over and over how adding an individual trading interface cannot and will not have any significant effect on the commerce that occurs through the auction house. For reasons I have explained multiple times with no need to repeat.

Over and over I explained the same thing. If you want to trade anonymously to the public, players can use auction house for that. A player who wants to trade something specific with another specific player currently has no option to do so without a huge risk of getting scammed/robbed.

Having no individual trading interface does not and will never solve the problem GW1 had. Having an auction for public anonymous trade does.

You are absolutely free to trade with anyone in game any item that can be bought or sold. If you want a guarantee that the product exists or that the money exists to pay for it use the TP. Really don’t understand your insistence that they must build a completely new system to do what the present system already does.

Yargesh.4965:

You are absolutely free to trade with anyone in game any item that can be bought or sold. If you want a guarantee that the product exists or that the money exists to pay for it use the TP. Really don’t understand your insistence that they must build a completely new system to do what the present system already does.

I never said to build a completely new system. Where did I say that? And the present system does not allow for players to trade with eachother individually. Individual trade hasn’t been added to the system. As it stands, you cannot use the TP to do individual trades. There is no feature within the TP or anywhere in the game for that. There is no valid reason why it shouldn’t be added.

crimlet.9872:

Trading post doesn’t have ability to trade with individual players. It’s meant for trading publicly. Hence your argument is completely invalid.

All transactions on the Trading post occur when an individual player buys or sells to another individual player.

You’ve created an imaginary distinction (public versus individual) and are using it as the basis for your entire argument. That renders your conclusions and arguments illogical because your basic premise is just flat out wrong.

There is absolutely no point to have a player to player trading interface because there is already a MUCH BETTER player to player trading interface in the game.