Guild Wars 2

To preface this, I do not want a combative thread where people complain about this or that, I just want a simple question answered.

I played GW1 for a while, and I’ve played GW2 since launch. I haven’t played any other MMO (unless you count that one night of Man vs. Machine). I always see people saying that they want the endgame to include raids. What is implied by “raid”? Is it just the much larger group, or is there something deeper I haven’t gathered yet?

Erasculio.2914:

What is implied when someone says “I want raids” is “I want one more WoW clone, with content made to a small minority of players who want to join a 40 people instance with tanks and DPS and healers, in which the goal is to defeat a boss to roll under a 0,001% chance that someone in our group will get the piece of loot we are all looking for; we want to get that loot as fast as possible, but of course this kind of content needs to be gated so it’s only available once per week”.

I and many others who want “Raids” in this game have not made such statements. Your depiction of “Raiders” wanting something akin to WoW seems to boil down to your “Hatred” of that game. Which shouldn’t be given as an excuse not to have such content in game. If you want to adhere to your claim about “Raiders” here I would like too see some quotations at least supporting what you’re saying.

So, maybe instead of asserting something too be true about a collective group of people why not simply ask what their position is like the OP? I as a former Guildwars 1 would like to experience the “Raiding/Elite” content similiar to what was set up in Guildwars 1. Which rewarded players who wanted to do “Hard” content with aesthetically pleasing items and a “Good” chance at rare mats and other things of value. This however is not implying that we want a “Gear Treadmill” because I like many others don’t want this for the game. I want to go into further detail with a list of things I would like to see in these “Raids”.

1. Content tailored for “Maximum” difficulty.
2. Larger Groups (Preferably 10-12)Instanced to stop Zerging
3. Aesthetically pleasing equipment (Sellable exclusive skins. Example: Dhuums Scythe)
4. “Rare” Materials/Tokens,Ascended.
5. Guild rewards.
6. Boss mechanics not hindered by “Open” world.

P.S – To answer the OPs questions, “Raids” in layman terms is “Large Grouped” difficult content. And not necessarily the emotional baggage that many ascribe to it.

What is implied when someone says “I want raids” is “I want one more WoW clone, with content made to a small minority of players who want to join a 40 people instance with tanks and DPS and healers, in which the goal is to defeat a boss to roll under a 0,001% chance that someone in our group will get the piece of loot we are all looking for; we want to get that loot as fast as possible, but of course this kind of content needs to be gated so it’s only available once per week”.

Da Sonic.6521:

To preface this, I do not want a combative thread where people complain about this or that, I just want a simple question answered.

I played GW1 for a while, and I’ve played GW2 since launch. I haven’t played any other MMO (unless you count that one night of Man vs. Machine). I always see people saying that they want the endgame to include raids. What is implied by “raid”? Is it just the much larger group, or is there something deeper I haven’t gathered yet?

This may be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_%28gaming%29 =)

Erasculio.2914:

What is implied when someone says “I want raids” is “I want one more WoW clone, with content made to a small minority of players who want to join a 40 people instance with tanks and DPS and healers, in which the goal is to defeat a boss to roll under a 0,001% chance that someone in our group will get the piece of loot we are all looking for; we want to get that loot as fast as possible, but of course this kind of content needs to be gated so it’s only available once per week”.

is that Fotm and world event you talking about? except its daily and the fact that world event is one of the worst raid kind. i guess this game is already a wow clone according to what you said. oh and that 0.001% chance of getting an item we all looking for, is that precursor i sense?

To be fair, most people only have experience with raids as done in wow and wow clones. When most people, not all people, ask for a raid, that’s the image they have in their minds. They don’t have another image in their mind because there are very few (if any) other images available. And if the Guild Wars 2 raid is substantively different from the raids they’re talking about, they won’t necessarily be satisified.

There are people who want a different kind of group content, a non-wow type raid, but they are by far the exception to the rule. Because people who think outside the box are the exception (or they wouldn’t be outside the box).

I have very little against group content made challenging and for larger groups. But I also believe the gaming community has been trained by years of not just wow, but wow clones. As such they’ve come to expect WoW style games. A lot of the dissatisfaction people experience with Guild Wars 2 is that it’s not a wow clone.

I didn’t like WoW, and I’m tired of every MMO coming out being a version of WoW more or less, that I’m tickled pink Guild Wars 2 isn’t a WoW clone. It has tons of flaws, as do most MMOs…but at least even with the flaws, it’s different enough from WoW for me to enjoy it.

Raids may start out as something that’s different from WoW raids, but as soon as raids enter the game, people will start wanting the better gear rewards that raids provided and they’ll want other people not to have them. Most hard core WoW players love being the haves, while most people in the game were the have nots. And that’s not really what Guild Wars 2 is about.

Vayne.8563:

To be fair, most people only have experience with raids as done in wow and wow clones. When most people, not all people, ask for a raid, that’s the image they have in their minds. They don’t have another image in their mind because there are very few (if any) other images available. And if the Guild Wars 2 raid is substantively different from the raids they’re talking about, they won’t necessarily be satisified.

There are people who want a different kind of group content, a non-wow type raid, but they are by far the exception to the rule. Because people who think outside the box are the exception (or they wouldn’t be outside the box).

I have very little against group content made challenging and for larger groups. But I also believe the gaming community has been trained by years of not just wow, but wow clones. As such they’ve come to expect WoW style games. A lot of the dissatisfaction people experience with Guild Wars 2 is that it’s not a wow clone.

I didn’t like WoW, and I’m tired of every MMO coming out being a version of WoW more or less, that I’m tickled pink Guild Wars 2 isn’t a WoW clone. It has tons of flaws, as do most MMOs…but at least even with the flaws, it’s different enough from WoW for me to enjoy it.

Raids may start out as something that’s different from WoW raids, but as soon as raids enter the game, people will start wanting the better gear rewards that raids provided and they’ll want other people not to have them. Most hard core WoW players love being the haves, while most people in the game were the have nots. And that’s not really what Guild Wars 2 is about.

I agree that “Many” will think of “Raids” along the lines of World of Warcraft I think this fact is blatant by the repetitive biased comments made towards “Raids” being implemented. However this comment to you won’t be solely on that point. I would like to talk about your usage of the phrase “WoW Clone” and what exactly the implications of this phrase means. I think what many like yourself have been doing is mistaking “Industry Standards” to “Clones”. Certainly you could say “Many” games seem to mirror WoW in the effort to garner some attention because of its success but that doesn’t however mean that the game has been copied “Key to Key or Analog to Analog”. I will list some questions below (If you’re willing to answer) I don’t want to detract from the topic at hand.

1. What key “Elements” are inspired by World of Warcraft.
2. Would these “Elements” always make another game a clone?
3. Would these “Elements” be bad to implement in other Mmos?
4. Given World of Warcraft success do you think the “Industry” has adopted these “Elements” to make successful games?

(Back on topic) I “Happy” in the fact that you are not against “Challenging” group content; I think this game could greatly benefit from such content. In your comment here you stated " as soon as raids enter the game, people will start wanting the better gear rewards that raids provided and they’ll want other people not to have them. " But I think that is rather trivial; So what if people want these features? It would go against what has been stated by Arenanet.

My use of the term WoW clone is based on the WOW model of a raid-centric PvE end game, that is centered around an ever increasing gear treadmill that never ends. Where you need gear from X to get to Y. Gear from Y to get to Z. And you have to repeat that content over and over to get that gear to get to the next raid.

More to the point, it’s a skinner box model to keep people playing, and spending the subscription.

WoW clones are obviously people copying how WOW does things to make a part of the money that WoW makes. It’s quite obvious both Rift and SWToR went this route. Rift was more successful than SWToR but had a lower overhead, and didn’t need as much money to run.

In the end, though, Rift got most of it’s new players from WoW who wanted more of the same stuff but with a different, prettier skin.

In the end, I’ve played well over a dozen themepark MMOs and every one of them was pretty much the same on the level of raiding and gearing up for those end game offerings. Guild Wars 2 is different and that’s why I like it.

And you can see it on the forums. No end game. Not enough end game. Nothing to do at end game. Some of us don’t want end game. We like the game…why would we want it to end? lol

Vayne.8563:

My use of the term WoW clone is based on the WOW model of a raid-centric PvE end game, that is centered around an ever increasing gear treadmill that never ends. Where you need gear from X to get to Y. Gear from Y to get to Z. And you have to repeat that content over and over to get that gear to get to the next raid.

More to the point, it’s a skinner box model to keep people playing, and spending the subscription.

WoW clones are obviously people copying how WOW does things to make a part of the money that WoW makes. It’s quite obvious both Rift and SWToR went this route. Rift was more successful than SWToR but had a lower overhead, and didn’t need as much money to run.

In the end, though, Rift got most of it’s new players from WoW who wanted more of the same stuff but with a different, prettier skin.

In the end, I’ve played well over a dozen themepark MMOs and every one of them was pretty much the same on the level of raiding and gearing up for those end game offerings. Guild Wars 2 is different and that’s why I like it.

And you can see it on the forums. No end game. Not enough end game. Nothing to do at end game. Some of us don’t want end game. We like the game…why would we want it to end? lol

While you “Tried”, I don’t think you answered my questions in the depth I would have liked. Although you’re under no obligation I would like to see you address them more thoroughly, my main “Emphasis” was to coerce what “Elements” made a WoW clone. I think this will allow me to understand exactly what you are “Claiming”. Especially when you state that both SWTOR and Rift are clones of WoW, Which I would have to disagree; just because they share similarities doesn’t make them a replicate. Which even needs more explanation as we haven’t defined what WoW “Elements” have been replicated.

“Some of us don’t want end game. We like the game…why would we want it to end?lol” This isn’t a serious response is it? “End Game” is simply relevant content “Exclusive/Appropriate” for those who have reached max level. This content is usually “Difficult” and rewards players in a manner reflecting it’s challenge. While I wouldn’t say Guildwars 2 lacks “End Game” I would say that what is currently in game does not facilitate the role of being: Rewarding or challenging. (Maximally)

I very very highly doubt “raids” will be made available in this game due to a number of things -
1. Raids are effectively dungeons with a lot of people which they can introduce in different ways.
2. Loot the way it is would be hard to balance in such instances without it being exactly the same as the dungeons that already exist and without making the items BiS.
3. I think a lot would have to be done with culling etc before we even consider raiding a possibility.

Raids are just glorified dungeons with a lot of people. It would use the same loot system, same boss mechanics (obviously room for variation but virtually the same), same dungeon progression as in several paths, different bosses per path etc. If you really take a step back and think about it, if ANet upped the player entry to standard dungeons to 10 or 20, and name them “hard mode” but used the exact same dungeon templates – they would be considered raids.

Then comes the problem where a hard mode would need a good reward for running it. The people who generally want raids are those who are all for gear progression rather than skin progression, therefore to satisfy that part of the community they would need BiS equipment as rewards which will divide the community. If they did it with just awesome skins though, I’m all for it! I reckon it could work if done right, but in the form of that hard-mode and not separate, designated “raids”.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne.8563:

My use of the term WoW clone is based on the WOW model of a raid-centric PvE end game, that is centered around an ever increasing gear treadmill that never ends. Where you need gear from X to get to Y. Gear from Y to get to Z. And you have to repeat that content over and over to get that gear to get to the next raid.

More to the point, it’s a skinner box model to keep people playing, and spending the subscription.

WoW clones are obviously people copying how WOW does things to make a part of the money that WoW makes. It’s quite obvious both Rift and SWToR went this route. Rift was more successful than SWToR but had a lower overhead, and didn’t need as much money to run.

In the end, though, Rift got most of it’s new players from WoW who wanted more of the same stuff but with a different, prettier skin.

In the end, I’ve played well over a dozen themepark MMOs and every one of them was pretty much the same on the level of raiding and gearing up for those end game offerings. Guild Wars 2 is different and that’s why I like it.

And you can see it on the forums. No end game. Not enough end game. Nothing to do at end game. Some of us don’t want end game. We like the game…why would we want it to end? lol

While you “Tried”, I don’t think you answered my questions in the depth I would have liked. Although you’re under no obligation I would like to see you address them more thoroughly, my main “Emphasis” was to coerce what “Elements” made a WoW clone. I think this will allow me to understand exactly what you are “Claiming”. Especially when you state that both SWTOR and Rift are clones of WoW, Which I would have to disagree; just because they share similarities doesn’t make them a replicate. Which even needs more explanation as we haven’t defined what WoW “Elements” have been replicated.

“Some of us don’t want end game. We like the game…why would we want it to end?lol” This isn’t a serious response is it? “End Game” is simply relevant content “Exclusive/Appropriate” for those who have reached max level. This content is usually “Difficult” and rewards players in a manner reflecting it’s challenge. While I wouldn’t say Guildwars 2 lacks “End Game” I would say that what is currently in game does not facilitate the role of being: Rewarding or challenging. (Maximally)

A clone, in the sense of a video game doesn’t mean a clone in the sense of human or genetic cloning. You’re trying to take the literal definition of a clone and apply it to a specialized area.

Take a look at SWToR. They added something to the WoW formula. They added a story, the kind of which Bioware was famous for. So it’s a hybrid of a bioware story and a WoW clone back end. Just about everything in the game can be found in WoW, down the way you progression SPvP.

Let’s look at Rift at launch (I can’t talk about it now because I don’t play it now). When you go into a battleground, you PvP with other people. You get certain benefits from your PvP level. So that as you play longer, you’re harder to kill and you can kill others more easily. The same was true in WoW PvP. The longer you play, the more skill you have but also the more in game advantage you have on top of your skill. New players would enter those arenas and die repeatedly because there was no way to stand against someone who had a higher rating. You couldn’t even damage them.

When I tried WoW PvP, I had the same experience. Guild Wars 2’s PvP is completely different.

The whole runnning back to your body from a graveyard is in WoW and Rift. This isn’t a self-evident truth that should be in all MMOs. This is something that was copied, directly, and not to the benefit of the game if you ask me.

The way quests work, down to the way dailies quests were given, including the faction reward for doing those quests was very much the same.

The dungeons, the way you grouped for them, the way loot was handled. Mob tagging, waiting for bosses to respawn.

People on the forums called Rift WoW 2.0 for a reason. Sure there was a layer of things added on top of the game to make it “different”. Rifts, which were eventually ignored by the playerbase (and had nothing really to do with the game anyway, they were like minigames) and zone wide events, which were better, but in the end, weren’t enough to make it more than a WoW clone.

Everyone throws in their own feature to make the game “theirs”. But when you strip away the excess, what the game boiled down to was WoW.

Jaall.3420:

I very very highly doubt “raids” will be made available in this game due to a number of things -
1. Raids are effectively dungeons with a lot of people which they can introduce in different ways.
2. Loot the way it is would be hard to balance in such instances without it being exactly the same as the dungeons that already exist and without making the items BiS.
3. I think a lot would have to be done with culling etc before we even consider raiding a possibility.

Raids are just glorified dungeons with a lot of people. It would use the same loot system, same boss mechanics (obviously room for variation but virtually the same), same dungeon progression as in several paths, different bosses per path etc. If you really take a step back and think about it, if ANet upped the player entry to standard dungeons to 10 or 20, and name them “hard mode” but used the exact same dungeon templates – they would be considered raids.

Then comes the problem where a hard mode would need a good reward for running it. The people who generally want raids are those who are all for gear progression rather than skin progression, therefore to satisfy that part of the community they would need BiS equipment as rewards which will divide the community. If they did it with just awesome skins though, I’m all for it! I reckon it could work if done right, but in the form of that hard-mode and not separate, designated “raids”.

Going to evaluate some of the points you made in this comment until I am ready to make a full reply.

“Raids are effectively dungeons with a lot of people which they can introduce in different ways.” So? The same could be said in response to "Regular"Dynamic Events (Being required) and Meta Events. Does this however detract from the existence of Meta events?

“Loot the way it is would be hard to balance in such instances without it being exactly the same as the dungeons that already exist and without making the items BiS.” What exactly are you referring too here? Why would it be “Hard” to balance/What needs to be balanced? The way I see it “Loot” does not necessarily need to be any different than what we see in other “Raid/Elite” type structures in this game (Referring to Meta Events/Fractals). I however I think “Guaranteed” (Such as Rare’s) rewards would be optimal for this content.

" I think a lot would have to be done with culling etc before we even consider raiding a possibility." Culling is currently being fixed, so I don’t see any issue with this. Secondly; Raid’s do not need to contain a vast amount of people. A Raid can comprise 10 or 12 people possibly more but it’s not necessary that their be 40 people on screen.

“The people who generally want raids are those who are all for gear progression” Do you have statistics proving this? I want raids; but I don’t want Gear Progression. We had “Raids” in Guildwars 1 and that didn’t have Gear progression so I’m quite positive Some if not Most Guildwars 1 players who want raids think along the same lines.

Vayne (Can’t quote)

The term “Clone” can only be understood at least from my perspective in one way. Meaning that it is has been wholly been copied; Which is a in my mind is a claim to know the truth about the intent of a developer/company. I would agree that there are similarities in these games as I have stated. But in all intent and purposes Rift and SWTOR are different games than WoW. These companies produce games for the same “Crowd” and they do accept standards of what a “Good” mmo should be. However I will concede my point and agree with you here as I want to keep this conversation on track.

So I will just ask you a question to you at this point. (I feel like I’ve had this conversation with you before)
1. Would you support the “Raid/Elite” content implemented in Guildwars 1 being re-introduced in Guildwars 2?

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne (Can’t quote)

The term “Clone” can only be understood at least from my perspective in one way. Meaning that it is has been wholly been copied; Which is a in my mind is a claim to know the truth about the intent of a developer/company. I would agree that there are similarities in these games as I have stated. But in all intent and purposes Rift and SWTOR are different games than WoW. These companies produce games for the same “Crowd” and they do accept standards of what a “Good” mmo should be. However I will concede my point and agree with you here as I want to keep this conversation on track.

So I will just ask you a question to you at this point. (I feel like I’ve had this conversation with you before)
1. Would you support the “Raid/Elite” content implemented in Guildwars 1 being re-introduced in Guildwars 2?

I worked in the game industry for many years (on the buying end for a computer store). We all knew what was meant when we said doom clones. You can take it any way you want. Do you use the word mob in game to mean one creature or a group of creatures? Because when I look up mob in the dictionary it’s a group of creatures.

Obviously there’s no such thing as a clone game in the literal sense, because it would be the same game. A clone is more like a reskin. It’s the same essential game reskinned. There were Doom clones that played much like Doom, but they weren’t exact clones. But everyone knew what you meant when you said a doom clone. Marketers from companies would actually tell me that a new game was a doom clone.

Every industry develops it’s own specialized use of the language. You can argue with me all day about dictionary definitions but it’s irrelevant, because we’re talking a specialized gaming language that has developed over the years.

If you don’t want to understand what’s meant by clone, that’s perfectly okay. But most people do know what it means.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne (Can’t quote)

The term “Clone” can only be understood at least from my perspective in one way. Meaning that it is has been wholly been copied; Which is a in my mind is a claim to know the truth about the intent of a developer/company.

Serious question: are you a high functioning autistic? I think that I am, and it can make communicating with other people difficult at times.

Because words have more than one meaning, particularly when used as “slang” terms. The term “WoW-Clone” means a game inspired by and borrowing elements from World of Warcraft, not a line-by-line copy of the game. That is absurd, because it is the property of a specific company and any other company that released a direct copy of the game would be subjected to a lawsuit and cease and desist order immediately. Therefore anyone using this term CANNOT be using it in the only way that you can understand the term.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Erasculio.2914:

What is implied when someone says “I want raids” is “I want one more WoW clone, with content made to a small minority of players who want to join a 40 people instance with tanks and DPS and healers, in which the goal is to defeat a boss to roll under a 0,001% chance that someone in our group will get the piece of loot we are all looking for; we want to get that loot as fast as possible, but of course this kind of content needs to be gated so it’s only available once per week”.

I and many others who want “Raids” in this game have not made such statements. Your depiction of “Raiders” wanting something akin to WoW seems to boil down to your “Hatred” of that game. Which shouldn’t be given as an excuse not to have such content in game. If you want to adhere to your claim about “Raiders” here I would like too see some quotations at least supporting what you’re saying.

So, maybe instead of asserting something too be true about a collective group of people why not simply ask what their position is like the OP? I as a former Guildwars 1 would like to experience the “Raiding/Elite” content similiar to what was set up in Guildwars 1. Which rewarded players who wanted to do “Hard” content with aesthetically pleasing items and a “Good” chance at rare mats and other things of value. This however is not implying that we want a “Gear Treadmill” because I like many others don’t want this for the game. I want to go into further detail with a list of things I would like to see in these “Raids”.

1. Content tailored for “Maximum” difficulty.
2. Larger Groups (Preferably 10-12)Instanced to stop Zerging
3. Aesthetically pleasing equipment (Sellable exclusive skins. Example: Dhuums Scythe)
4. “Rare” Materials/Tokens,Ascended.
5. Guild rewards.
6. Boss mechanics not hindered by “Open” world.

P.S – To answer the OPs questions, “Raids” in layman terms is “Large Grouped” difficult content. And not necessarily the emotional baggage that many ascribe to it.

3, 4 and 5 are the things I don’t want to see in any type of “raid” content if it ever would be added. Of course I’m against any type of content that segregates the community.

Okay. Thanks to the people who kept with my wishes for this not to explode into a forum war. Pretty much what I gathered is it’s just more people than typical, usually in a more difficult instanced setting. The rewards and such seem moot to the general idea of a raid, so I won’t really go further into that.

Vayne.8563:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne (Can’t quote)

The term “Clone” can only be understood at least from my perspective in one way. Meaning that it is has been wholly been copied; Which is a in my mind is a claim to know the truth about the intent of a developer/company. I would agree that there are similarities in these games as I have stated. But in all intent and purposes Rift and SWTOR are different games than WoW. These companies produce games for the same “Crowd” and they do accept standards of what a “Good” mmo should be. However I will concede my point and agree with you here as I want to keep this conversation on track.

So I will just ask you a question to you at this point. (I feel like I’ve had this conversation with you before)
1. Would you support the “Raid/Elite” content implemented in Guildwars 1 being re-introduced in Guildwars 2?

I worked in the game industry for many years (on the buying end for a computer store). We all knew what was meant when we said doom clones. You can take it any way you want. Do you use the word mob in game to mean one creature or a group of creatures? Because when I look up mob in the dictionary it’s a group of creatures.

Obviously there’s no such thing as a clone game in the literal sense, because it would be the same game. A clone is more like a reskin. It’s the same essential game reskinned. There were Doom clones that played much like Doom, but they weren’t exact clones. But everyone knew what you meant when you said a doom clone. Marketers from companies would actually tell me that a new game was a doom clone.

Every industry develops it’s own specialized use of the language. You can argue with me all day about dictionary definitions but it’s irrelevant, because we’re talking a specialized gaming language that has developed over the years.

If you don’t want to understand what’s meant by clone, that’s perfectly okay. But most people do know what it means.

“Do you use the word mob in game to mean one creature or a group of creatures?” A Mob is a group . I thought this particular conversation would end when I said that I concede my point. However I guess I was wrong; so I will further explain myself. I am indeed aware of the meaning of “Clone” in the gaming industry. Its is a game which intends to copy most “Major” features of a game to accumulate the same audience(More can be stated). I don’t doubt that WoW clones exist; Look no further to games like Runes of Magic,Alganon or Allods online. However my opinion of Rift and SWTOR is that they are not currently WoW clones. Many game’s build upon the foundation of their predecessors in an attempt to correct or make a feature better, But this doesn’t warrant the game itself to be called a “Clone”.

Not even WoW is excluded from this cycle; from what I hear as I’ve never played Everquest 1 WoW has implemented similar features. But you wouldn’t state that WoW is an Everquest clone would you?

tolunart.2095:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Vayne (Can’t quote)

The term “Clone” can only be understood at least from my perspective in one way. Meaning that it is has been wholly been copied; Which is a in my mind is a claim to know the truth about the intent of a developer/company.

Serious question: are you a high functioning autistic? I think that I am, and it can make communicating with other people difficult at times.

Because words have more than one meaning, particularly when used as “slang” terms. The term “WoW-Clone” means a game inspired by and borrowing elements from World of Warcraft, not a line-by-line copy of the game. That is absurd, because it is the property of a specific company and any other company that released a direct copy of the game would be subjected to a lawsuit and cease and desist order immediately. Therefore anyone using this term CANNOT be using it in the only way that you can understand the term.

No I am not autistic. Either way I think I may have embellished a bit in my comment when using the word “Wholly”. What I meant to describe was in the form of features or content and not necessarily every aspect of the game.

Edit: Reread what you stated.

Conner.4702:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Erasculio.2914:

What is implied when someone says “I want raids” is “I want one more WoW clone, with content made to a small minority of players who want to join a 40 people instance with tanks and DPS and healers, in which the goal is to defeat a boss to roll under a 0,001% chance that someone in our group will get the piece of loot we are all looking for; we want to get that loot as fast as possible, but of course this kind of content needs to be gated so it’s only available once per week”.

I and many others who want “Raids” in this game have not made such statements. Your depiction of “Raiders” wanting something akin to WoW seems to boil down to your “Hatred” of that game. Which shouldn’t be given as an excuse not to have such content in game. If you want to adhere to your claim about “Raiders” here I would like too see some quotations at least supporting what you’re saying.

So, maybe instead of asserting something too be true about a collective group of people why not simply ask what their position is like the OP? I as a former Guildwars 1 would like to experience the “Raiding/Elite” content similiar to what was set up in Guildwars 1. Which rewarded players who wanted to do “Hard” content with aesthetically pleasing items and a “Good” chance at rare mats and other things of value. This however is not implying that we want a “Gear Treadmill” because I like many others don’t want this for the game. I want to go into further detail with a list of things I would like to see in these “Raids”.

1. Content tailored for “Maximum” difficulty.
2. Larger Groups (Preferably 10-12)Instanced to stop Zerging
3. Aesthetically pleasing equipment (Sellable exclusive skins. Example: Dhuums Scythe)
4. “Rare” Materials/Tokens,Ascended.
5. Guild rewards.
6. Boss mechanics not hindered by “Open” world.

P.S – To answer the OPs questions, “Raids” in layman terms is “Large Grouped” difficult content. And not necessarily the emotional baggage that many ascribe to it.

3, 4 and 5 are the things I don’t want to see in any type of “raid” content if it ever would be added. Of course I’m against any type of content that segregates the community.

3,4,5 are all currently in game; and are apart of “Raid/Elite” content which is emplaced in Guildwars 2. Think about it; 3,4 and 5 can all be found in Guild Missions. While 3,4 can be found in Meta Events and Fractals (excluding Guild Influence). But as you stated it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Going to evaluate some of the points you made in this comment until I am ready to make a full reply.

“Raids are effectively dungeons with a lot of people which they can introduce in different ways.” So? The same could be said in response to "Regular"Dynamic Events (Being required) and Meta Events. Does this however detract from the existence of Meta events?

“Loot the way it is would be hard to balance in such instances without it being exactly the same as the dungeons that already exist and without making the items BiS.” What exactly are you referring too here? Why would it be “Hard” to balance/What needs to be balanced? The way I see it “Loot” does not necessarily need to be any different than what we see in other “Raid/Elite” type structures in this game (Referring to Meta Events/Fractals). I however I think “Guaranteed” (Such as Rare’s) rewards would be optimal for this content.

" I think a lot would have to be done with culling etc before we even consider raiding a possibility." Culling is currently being fixed, so I don’t see any issue with this. Secondly; Raid’s do not need to contain a vast amount of people. A Raid can comprise 10 or 12 people possibly more but it’s not necessary that their be 40 people on screen.

“The people who generally want raids are those who are all for gear progression” Do you have statistics proving this? I want raids; but I don’t want Gear Progression. We had “Raids” in Guildwars 1 and that didn’t have Gear progression so I’m quite positive Some if not Most Guildwars 1 players who want raids think along the same lines.

You seem like you’re making arguments for the sake of making an argument. I am just pointing out the obvious issues with raiding, and I am not against adding raids. Raids in a sense are instances separate from dungeons or at least that’s what people imply they want, and not dungeons we already have but with more players.

Loot in raids would have to be better than those in dungeons if the difficulty is harder. I can quite happily say people will not be happy with harder content that needs a lot of co-ordination and team work/effort if the rewards are the same as farming cof in 5 mins or doing a meta event. The only rewards they could offer would be better stats therefore dividing the committed players and the casual players. Another way is to have more money or better skins and is entirely possible however it would be difficult to balance because firstly whether a skin is good or bad is subjective and differs from person to person, and secondly more money rewards seems to be a touchy subject to ANet.

Culling is being sorted but it is an issue that could be a problem with raids and like I said, causing an argument for the sake of causing an argument. It’s not the case of simple culling, it’s also the case of refining the game to a point where it can handle 20 players using a lot of particle effects against the same boss with little lag on the majority of pc’s available today. I should have said game polishing instead of culling but culling is a big part of that.

I have no statistics but I think it’s fairly obvious that those who want raids come from a WoW type mmo background where gear treadmills are the norm. Also note I said generally, I never meant everyone. Of course there are going to be people who do raids for the sake of them being raids, and for the fun but as we can see from cof farming etc, a lot of people solely do content for the rewards. There seem to be a lot of people on this forum who want to change what GW2 is completely and bring back trinity or a gear treadmill.

I never once said I was against raids and it would add a new level to the game, however there are issues that have to be overcome first and a few of them go against what ANet seems to want this game to be. Of course if they can overcome these and create a hard-mode for every dungeon then that would be great, I’m simply saying I doubt it will be soon, if at all what people consider “raids”. The term raid has an incredibly wide definition and what some people would consider a raid, others won’t.

Jaall.3420:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Going to evaluate some of the points you made in this comment until I am ready to make a full reply.

“Raids are effectively dungeons with a lot of people which they can introduce in different ways.” So? The same could be said in response to "Regular"Dynamic Events (Being required) and Meta Events. Does this however detract from the existence of Meta events?

“Loot the way it is would be hard to balance in such instances without it being exactly the same as the dungeons that already exist and without making the items BiS.” What exactly are you referring too here? Why would it be “Hard” to balance/What needs to be balanced? The way I see it “Loot” does not necessarily need to be any different than what we see in other “Raid/Elite” type structures in this game (Referring to Meta Events/Fractals). I however I think “Guaranteed” (Such as Rare’s) rewards would be optimal for this content.

" I think a lot would have to be done with culling etc before we even consider raiding a possibility." Culling is currently being fixed, so I don’t see any issue with this. Secondly; Raid’s do not need to contain a vast amount of people. A Raid can comprise 10 or 12 people possibly more but it’s not necessary that their be 40 people on screen.

“The people who generally want raids are those who are all for gear progression” Do you have statistics proving this? I want raids; but I don’t want Gear Progression. We had “Raids” in Guildwars 1 and that didn’t have Gear progression so I’m quite positive Some if not Most Guildwars 1 players who want raids think along the same lines.

You seem like you’re making arguments for the sake of making an argument. I am just pointing out the obvious issues with raiding, and I am not against adding raids. Raids in a sense are instances separate from dungeons or at least that’s what people imply they want, and not dungeons we already have but with more players.

Loot in raids would have to be better than those in dungeons if the difficulty is harder. I can quite happily say people will not be happy with harder content that needs a lot of co-ordination and team work/effort if the rewards are the same as farming cof in 5 mins or doing a meta event. The only rewards they could offer would be better stats therefore dividing the committed players and the casual players. Another way is to have more money or better skins and is entirely possible however it would be difficult to balance because firstly whether a skin is good or bad is subjective and differs from person to person, and secondly more money rewards seems to be a touchy subject to ANet.

Culling is being sorted but it is an issue that could be a problem with raids and like I said, causing an argument for the sake of causing an argument. It’s not the case of simple culling, it’s also the case of refining the game to a point where it can handle 20 players using a lot of particle effects against the same boss with little lag on the majority of pc’s available today. I should have said game polishing instead of culling but culling is a big part of that.

I have no statistics but I think it’s fairly obvious that those who want raids come from a WoW type mmo background where gear treadmills are the norm. Also note I said generally, I never meant everyone. Of course there are going to be people who do raids for the sake of them being raids, and for the fun but as we can see from cof farming etc, a lot of people solely do content for the rewards. There seem to be a lot of people on this forum who want to change what GW2 is completely and bring back trinity or a gear treadmill.

I never once said I was against raids and it would add a new level to the game, however there are issues that have to be overcome first and a few of them go against what ANet seems to want this game to be. Of course if they can overcome these and create a hard-mode for every dungeon then that would be great, I’m simply saying I doubt it will be soon, if at all what people consider “raids”. The term raid has an incredibly wide definition and what some people would consider a raid, others won’t.

This topic has been moved; So I don’t see it fit to actually comment to the text you’ve written given the topic of the forum. Take it however you want; I however will respond to your first sentence. “You seem like you’re making arguments for the sake of making an argument.” I disagreed with your points you made; this was cause enough for me to reply this is my reasoning for discussion.

Vayne.8563:

To be fair, most people only have experience with raids as done in wow and wow clones.

You mean with Everquest and Everquest-Clones like WoW

Martin The Brave.8731:

2. Larger Groups (Preferably 10-12)Instanced to stop Zerging

P.S – To answer the OPs questions, “Raids” in layman terms is “Large Grouped” difficult ontent. And not necessarily the emotional baggage that many ascribe to it.

If you haven’t read this article you need to especially the paragraph entitled “Zergs:”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/devon-carver-on-the-future-of-world-vs-world/