Guild Wars 2

Boredom, genuinly interested and it keeps me from posting salty threads;

What do you people think was the worst and most annoying spec to fight?
The old Decap Engineer – who became imune to conditions thanks to Automated Response, used Flamethrower to degrade people by shoving them off-point, and needed about 2-3 people to succesfully take down depending on their builds

Or the most recent Turret Engineer, whoms Thumper Turret got a bit of a nerf, while the Rocket Turret became a more reliable projectile than Arcane Blast – CC’s which are both AI controlled as well as needing some interraction of said Engineer… A build which cannot be encountered by anything wearing paper armour, as the AI will shred them to pieces…

Now personally, I was a ton more frustrated about the Decap Engineers… Reason why was because it was so freaking succesful in it’s role – you jumped to a point, got it contested indeffinately, and the enemy team was behind 100, 150pts before you knew it…
The immunity on Automated Response was incredibly bad design and made this build nearly unkillable
You would argue that the AI from the turrets do not require skill, and I am not saying it does not – but a good Decap Engineer could make you want to curse at puppies once you got it nearly downed for the bazzilionth time

So what are your thoughts?

Both are bad and should not exist
/thread

Old decap was way more annoying. Turret is ezpz to play against.

jportell.2197:

Both are bad and should not exist
/thread

Oh come on man, don’t break my heart like this after I put so much work into it :<

The thing about the Automated Decap Engineers is that they didn’t do damage and could never kill you too fast. It was annoying for Pure Condition classes, but otherwise they never shined in high levels of play against people with a brain.

With Turret Engineers you have AI that do more damage the the player itself, which should never be the case. So I would say Turret Engineers are more annoying.

Both are terrible mechanics though.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

The thing about the Automated Decap Engineers is that they didn’t do damage and could never kill you too fast. It was annoying for Pure Condition classes, but otherwise they never shined in high levels of play against people with a brain.

With Turret Engineers you have AI that do more damage the the player itself, which should never be the case. So I would say Turret Engineers are more annoying.

Both are terrible mechanics though.

Insightful and honest answer, also true, a Decapper was not a killer – though I have a question…

Wasn’t Decap Engineer run in an important tournament at one point? I did not play much when it initially dropped, but I seem to remember people complaining about the lowest low in GW2 “Esports” history (Lyssa Hambow, Dhuumfire Necro, Spirit Ranger and Decap Engineer being about)

The AI of turrets does not do more damage then player himself unless player went full on defense and is using pistol with power amulet.

The point is that turrets act independantly, and rocket turret which is biggest damage disher is often planted away from engi. So while you can and often will successfuly mitigate engi’s own attacks, the turrets will land theirs, and thus the conviction that turrets do more damage then engi.

But as i play turret hybrid engi (not full tureteer) i can tell you it’s nothing funny when your turrets go on 50s cooldown when you die. Also mobility is an issue, because much of your support is stationary, so gotta think twice about moving away from your spot. Every stick has two ends.

For being annoying? Old decap engi has my vote here. They were annoying as hell if I forget to change the build of my bunker guardian and to take tons of stability.

Turreters are not a big deal when you play in organized team. They just deal big damage to the community in a long run. I’ll explain.

All the new PvP’ers meet them. They quickly realize how easy & effective this build is, and many of them either get too frustrated and quit PvP, or reroll to turret engi. In both cases they’re lost for the PvP community. In this way turret engies directly lower the PvP playerbase. That’s what I think.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

The thing about the Automated Decap Engineers is that they didn’t do damage and could never kill you too fast. It was annoying for Pure Condition classes, but otherwise they never shined in high levels of play against people with a brain.

With Turret Engineers you have AI that do more damage the the player itself, which should never be the case. So I would say Turret Engineers are more annoying.

Both are terrible mechanics though.

Insightful and honest answer, also true, a Decapper was not a killer – though I have a question…

Wasn’t Decap Engineer run in an important tournament at one point? I did not play much when it initially dropped, but I seem to remember people complaining about the lowest low in GW2 “Esports” history (Lyssa Hambow, Dhuumfire Necro, Spirit Ranger and Decap Engineer being about)

I think the one team that I remember who ran a Decap Enginner was Vision Valor Victory [vVv], and that player was Lady Steamhawke, an old veteran back in his prime.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

The thing about the Automated Decap Engineers is that they didn’t do damage and could never kill you too fast. It was annoying for Pure Condition classes, but otherwise they never shined in high levels of play against people with a brain.

With Turret Engineers you have AI that do more damage the the player itself, which should never be the case. So I would say Turret Engineers are more annoying.

Both are terrible mechanics though.

Insightful and honest answer, also true, a Decapper was not a killer – though I have a question…

Wasn’t Decap Engineer run in an important tournament at one point? I did not play much when it initially dropped, but I seem to remember people complaining about the lowest low in GW2 “Esports” history (Lyssa Hambow, Dhuumfire Necro, Spirit Ranger and Decap Engineer being about)

I think the one team that I remember who ran a Decap Enginner was Vision Valor Victory [vVv], and that player was Lady Steamhawke, an old veteran back in his prime.

Can confirm, it was vVv who ran it. Playing against it them was always tricky but your team could manage it with proper rotations and the right 1v1 against it.

Decap Engineer was much more troublesome. Playing as a Condi Necro was nightmare, if you didn’t stack ton of conditions before they reached their cool zone, it would go over and over, reset after reset.

I’d rather see a decap engi than a turret engi. At least they had a role in competitive PvP, could rotate (albeit practically limited), didn’t rely on AI, and couldn’t almost kill players while being on the other side of the map, afk, or doing figure eights on the point with 0 awareness. Turret engi hurts the community. Decap engi was a part of the meta, and thus contributed to its evolution. I’m not saying I would want a decap engi on my team - they have drawbacks too. I’m saying I can appreciate the creation and use of the build, while turret engineer just shouldn’t exist. It’s nothing against engis either; I feel the same way about all AI builds, including spirit weapon guardian and minion master necro. I don’t count spirit ranger as an AI build since the NPCs just follow him around providing passives and have some activatable skills - basically signets with physical form and can therefore be killed, and the strength of those passives as the balance to that fact.

Decap was much worse imo. As fun as it was to troll people with, and get players upset for a good laugh after a hard day… It’s naturally toxic, since I was clearly the only one having fun.

I haven’t tried turret but I’ve faught and rotated around it enough to know it’s pretty much the same vibe just obviously a lot easier rotating around.

… Well atleast until teams started running more than one… God I hate conquest.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Boredom, genuinly interested and it keeps me from posting salty threads;

What do you people think was the worst and most annoying spec to fight?
The old Decap Engineer – who became imune to conditions thanks to Automated Response, used Flamethrower to degrade people by shoving them off-point, and needed about 2-3 people to succesfully take down depending on their builds

Or the most recent Turret Engineer, whoms Thumper Turret got a bit of a nerf, while the Rocket Turret became a more reliable projectile than Arcane Blast – CC’s which are both AI controlled as well as needing some interraction of said Engineer… A build which cannot be encountered by anything wearing paper armour, as the AI will shred them to pieces…

---

Now personally, I was a ton more frustrated about the Decap Engineers… Reason why was because it was so freaking succesful in it’s role – you jumped to a point, got it contested indeffinately, and the enemy team was behind 100, 150pts before you knew it…
The immunity on Automated Response was incredibly bad design and made this build nearly unkillable
You would argue that the AI from the turrets do not require skill, and I am not saying it does not – but a good Decap Engineer could make you want to curse at puppies once you got it nearly downed for the bazzilionth time

So what are your thoughts?

I guess they need to give ppl braindead specs from time to time otherwise pve heroes wouldn’t do kitten on anything requiring any amount skill and eventually leave pvp

Decap and turrets just let them feel to be decent even if they totally suck, so they stick to the game, buy gems, economy rolls and everyone is happy (Everyone at anet ofc)

Working as intended

^ except kills our competitive community…

Although adding to the conspiracy theories…
I blame grouch >=(

Daishi.6027:

^ except kills our competitive community…

Although adding to the conspiracy theories…
I blame grouch >=(

Edit: it seems surprisingly even between the two specs…

I don’t remember people running any more than 1 decap eng, yesterday half the premades I ran into ran 2 turret engis, one even had 3 kitten . Mind you I managed to win all those games but my pug team also usually had at least one turret eng.

I hate that turret engineers give the class such a bad name, they are my favourite class and a ton of fun. Hopefully if and when Anet decides to nerf something they just nerf turrets and maybe IP and don’t go nerfing things that aren’t ridiculous.

i think the new meta with turret is more annoying. Atleast the decap engi require some player skills whereas now you let AI controlled turrents do the work.

Also now since the pvp community grew there are more counters to the decap engis.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Hopefully if and when Anet decides to nerf something they just nerf turrets and maybe IP and don’t go nerfing things that aren’t ridiculous.

Why should turrets be nerfed? It’s not even that good. Hell, cele rifle is WAY more OP but you want turrets nerfed? If turret needs to be nerfed and is SO OP, then why does no one run turrets in tourneys?

Hachiman.2470:

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Hopefully if and when Anet decides to nerf something they just nerf turrets and maybe IP and don’t go nerfing things that aren’t ridiculous.

Why should turrets be nerfed? It’s not even that good. Hell, cele rifle is WAY more OP but you want turrets nerfed? If turret needs to be nerfed and is SO OP, then why does no one run turrets in tourneys?

The reason why no one runs turret in tournament is because they are banned. There are certain builds that are not allowed. Now you know why they are so OP. Escially a zerg of them

?? Where on the ESL tourney rules does it state you cannot play turrets?

Hachiman.2470:

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Hopefully if and when Anet decides to nerf something they just nerf turrets and maybe IP and don’t go nerfing things that aren’t ridiculous.

Why should turrets be nerfed? It’s not even that good. Hell, cele rifle is WAY more OP but you want turrets nerfed? If turret needs to be nerfed and is SO OP, then why does no one run turrets in tourneys?

It depends what you call OP. Turreter is a better 1v1 build than cele rifle. It’s a bunker with a cray damage output. Sure, it is easy to out-rotate, but the game is designed in a way that most good builds can either reasonable 1v1 every one (most warrior builds can), or have more of a paper/rock/scissors balance (engineer). But there is no weakness in dueling for a turret engineer. I played one last night (I main engineer), just to see if it was as OP as everyone said. I’ve been playing a lot of shatter mesmer recently, so I have no real difficulty with them. But yesterday, I didn’t loose a single 1v1, and won at least half of my 1v2. The build has weaknesses, but it’s not really fun to have a build in the game for which the best strategy is to avoid it. Especially in a game where most people queue solo.

By the way, cele rifle was never buffed. It just became good in the current 5 roamers meta (well, not so current anymore, but you get it), because it’s a roamer that can hold a 1v1 on a point for some time. It’s just like bunker guardian used to be: the best at his role. And yet, not every team play with an engi, and every team used to play with a guardian. That didn’t make it OP.

Hachiman.2470:

?? Where on the ESL tourney rules does it state you cannot play turrets?

They don’t. Turrets are just not optimal for organized play. It only works in soloq, which is already bad enough.

Sorel.4870:

By the way, cele rifle was never buffed.

Well i’d say the mere introduction of the cele amulet is what has made rifle part of the meta as well as the other cele classes. All of which are better than turrets.

Sorel.4870:

They don’t. Turrets are just not optimal for organized play. It only works in soloq, which is already bad enough.

Yeah I know it doesn’t say you can’t use turrets. That was kind of my point since other guy seemed to think it was banned. I agree, in soloq it is strong but that is because of a lack of team play/organization in soloq. I think that is a different argument all together. If you want to say it is strong in soloq that is fine but some peoples blanket statement that its so OP and needs to be nerfed when it is really only viable in soloq is an exaggeration.

Hachiman.2470:

Sorel.4870:

By the way, cele rifle was never buffed.

Well i’d say the mere introduction of the cele amulet is what has made rifle part of the meta as well as the other cele classes. All of which are better than turrets.

Not immediately. Cele rifle became meta just after the warrior nerf. Before that, condi was still the norm (it only made it out off metabattle in the beginning of 2015). And it’s easy to understand why: cele rifle is a build that relies on CC to be effective, and when warriors had easy access to stability and there were two of them in every team, rifle on engi was just not an option. Plus, with the bunker meta, there was not need for a somewhat tanky roamers. And you had these pesky axebow everywhere…

Nowadays, guardians play medi, warriors play shouts, and we barely remember what stability looks like anymore (except for the occasional Plague Form). No wonder celestial engineer is so strong. By the way, engineer was always extremely strong in 1v1, in its condi version. In the current meta, it just found its role.

You guys still don’t understand that if turret engis are nerfed, everyone will just migrate to the nade spamming cele spec. Engi is just overly strong right now in general.

ANET likes easy fixes. If they want to balance engi, it can be done with one easy change: remove the water field from the healing turret. It is sustain that makes both the turret engi spec and the nade cele spec so strong. This will reduce that sustain.

My vote for more annoying would be turret engie for sure! Decap was very annoying, but if you find the right fence/corner to hug you could just let them ping-pong you right there and hold the point indefinitely. Also, a bad decap engie would straight up die in a fight.

A turret engie has enough damage to fight off all but the most bunkery builds, and the turreter’s individual skill isn’t very relevant. A bad turret engie is just about as tanky as a good one. This is where the frustration comes from – you essentially have to play your butt off to kill someone who is afk, and even if they are completely afk you will end up eating at least half your life and take a good minute doing it.

In the end, however, both are about equally toxic for the game. They are incredibly low-skill builds that require a very high amount of skill (and the right build) to take down. While having simple classes is a good thing to draw in new players, turrets are such an effective “first order optimal strategy” and any other build takes so much more skill to pull off, most newer players get scared off. If you are a new pvp-er you either play turrets (and never anything else b/c you never learn) or you get farmed by turrets and quit.

When the question becomes decap engie vs. turret engie with floating turrets (the new rage), it most definitely goes to the latter.

Finally, while others are complaining about cele engie (which are a bit OP atm), at least they require some semblance of skill to play. A bad cele engie will be useless to his team and get farmed.

Hachiman.2470:

Sorel.4870:

They don’t. Turrets are just not optimal for organized play. It only works in soloq, which is already bad enough.

Yeah I know it doesn’t say you can’t use turrets. That was kind of my point since other guy seemed to think it was banned. I agree, in soloq it is strong but that is because of a lack of team play/organization in soloq. I think that is a different argument all together. If you want to say it is strong in soloq that is fine but some peoples blanket statement that its so OP and needs to be nerfed when it is really only viable in soloq is an exaggeration.

You’re absolutely right. What is really on the table here is different visions about balance. For example, I like balance changes that make players want to try weapons or traits they never used because they were bad. For example, I really liked the changes about engineer’s shield, ranger’s torch, or mesmer’s sword for example. Maim the dillusioned or the recent Foot in the Grave trait for necros were also good changes.

In the same idea, I don’t think balance should only be about top teams and top players. Even those of us who play reasonably well like to soloq from time to time, and I’m sure everyone gets people in his team who find clever to duel a turret engi on a point. For those people, I think a change in turret engi would be a good sign, for example reducing the damage and the health pool of the turrets a bit, while reducing the CD, to make is more mobile and less insane in 1v1 on a point.

But again, that’s just an opinion. On this forum, you can read a lot of threads about people wanting to nerf/buff meta team builds over and over again, to shake things up. It’s an open debate.

Daishi.6027:

^ except kills our competitive community…

Although adding to the conspiracy theories…
I blame grouch >=(

Blaming grouch is definately the way to go xD

He didn’t even let me and xerrex in when they were testing stronghold arenas…shame on you grouch .__.

I like how turret engineers think its okay that their counter is ignoring them. Yesterday every game I played had 1 or 2 turret engineers on both teams, its just not fun. I would rather play an “OP” cele engineer than a turret engineer because at least I am fighting another person.

I have been seeing a lot of premades the last few days running 2 or even 3 turret engis and it doesn’t make for fun matches.

Imo btw

I do feel old decap although requiring a moderate amount of skill (which to be fair isn’t realllly saying much esp compared to what we’re comparing it to) is objectively a stronger build…

But this meta is more annoying because teams are stacking them, and it wasn’t often you’d run into 3 decap engies outside of hotjoin.

The question is similar to compairing old
Valk d/d Ele to cel d/d Ele.

So atleast we are making some Progress balance wise lol… But 2 years in same problems diffent context

Sorel.4870:

Hachiman.2470:

?? Where on the ESL tourney rules does it state you cannot play turrets?

They don’t. Turrets are just not optimal for organized play. It only works in soloq, which is already bad enough.

let alone everyone is gonna flame you forever….for obvious and totally legit reasons

Archaon.9524:

let alone everyone is gonna flame you forever….for obvious and totally legit reasons

I don’t know about that. Every team was more than happy to play 1-2 spirit rangers for months prior to the nerf, so if turret engi fitted in a good composition, you can bet your boots it would be played.

I did not realize this thread would cause such a debate, and frankly, it is really interesting…

Everyone here gives compellng arguements as to why they dislike or even sympathize more with a certain build…

On the other hand, I lean a lot towards Daishi’s comment about making progress, yet running into the same issues… It is also shown by the amount of metabuilds that shifted around – of which some professions did not see a shift for nearly as long as the game started

Sorel.4870:

Archaon.9524:

let alone everyone is gonna flame you forever….for obvious and totally legit reasons

I don’t know about that. Every team was more than happy to play 1-2 spirit rangers for months prior to the nerf, so if turret engi fitted in a good composition, you can bet your boots it would be played.

Trust me spirit ranger still required more skill than turret engi…enough said i guess…

Archaon.9524:

Trust me spirit ranger still required more skill than turret engi…enough said i guess…

Its sad that the game has evolved to the point where builds way easier than spirit ranger were played at high levels and were very effective. Heck a 2x turret team almost beat Apex (won 1 game, lost 2nd game to lord rush, and threw the 3rd game).

Archaon.9524:

Trust me spirit ranger still required more skill than turret engi…enough said i guess…

Hardly. I played both, and frankly turreter seems a bit more complicated, since positioning is more difficult (you can’t just run to the nearest team fight without your turrets). And spirit ranger was definitely a stronger build. It got nerfed, and it was about time. I wish turreter will meet the same fate. But I find funny that players who had no shame in playing spirit ranger are so prude about turreters.

I don’t mind playing the villain while abusing and proving how braindead turrets are. I will show on livestream, if I do make in higher brackets in ESL, that Turrets are braindead and requires absolutely no skill and that ANET devs need to rethink their pathetic balancing principles.

Sorel.4870:

Archaon.9524:

Trust me spirit ranger still required more skill than turret engi…enough said i guess…

Hardly. I played both, and frankly turreter seems a bit more complicated, since positioning is more difficult (you can’t just run to the nearest team fight without your turrets). And spirit ranger was definitely a stronger build. It got nerfed, and it was about time. I wish turreter will meet the same fate. But I find funny that players who had no shame in playing spirit ranger are so prude about turreters.

So basically, brain dead spec vs slightly more brain dead spec. Once ANET hires a balance team, I’m sure this will be resolved.

Archaon.9524:

Sorel.4870:

Archaon.9524:

let alone everyone is gonna flame you forever….for obvious and totally legit reasons

I don’t know about that. Every team was more than happy to play 1-2 spirit rangers for months prior to the nerf, so if turret engi fitted in a good composition, you can bet your boots it would be played.

Trust me spirit ranger still required more skill than turret engi…enough said i guess…

I would argue with its previous itteration, literally getting enough pressure by keep auto-attacking on SB :P

Though when pressured, it had some neat tricks as self-reviving, the use of Sw/D, interrupt on SB to let heals be on cooldown…

And even activating the Spirits had some neat effects, though most people did not use them at all

should probably just delete engineers from the game. They are the cancer class and game would be more balanced without them.

hue.

Reikou.7068:

should probably just delete engineers from the game. They are the cancer class and game would be more balanced without them.

hue.

To be fair, they are incredibly flawed in their design… though narrowing it down a bit;

Turrets having Area Control is nothing new, a certain game has practiced it for years – though unlike this game, it always maintained a R-P-S kind of balance, where other classes were build around shutting down things like these… Also, the build variety within that game is far more limited than GW2

So obviously there were some ideas as to what the profession should be, but it went haywire somewhere…
Though all professions suffer a bit from being designed in the oddest way possible… I mean for real
Mesmers are a mere shade of the glorious being they were in the first game – being transformed into etheral pink cheerleader spawning “bursty” profession with some torment here and there (like seriously), Warriors are… Paragons? Guardians took a page out of the Smiting Monks’ book and devoured it whole, though have literally been unphased ever since the start of the game etc. etc.

Luckily Anet learned, and thus Revenant will have nearly 0 oddities within it’s design… Have fun