Guild Wars 2

I’ve heard some people here and perhaps Anet too say that the game is supposed to be balanced around team play and not 1v1. I beg to disagree.

1v1 is all that really matters.

If you balance for dueling, team balance will take care of itself. I win a good majority of my matchup on my mesmer and seriously wonder why warriors are even played anymore. Forget teamwork. If I can consistently win over another class 1v1 with absolutely no effort on my part, something is wrong.

I like to think I’m skilled, but there’s no way I can be that good. It’s clearly a class issue. I can take down most thieves easy, but I’ve heard Anet say that thieves are the “ultimate duelists”. That’s nonsense. Every class should be awesome in duels. Teamwork is less important that 1v1.

Lately Anet seems to be introducing more teamwork mechanics. I think that’s wrong. It should be designed such that everyone acting in their own best interests creates the optimal strategy.

No point in team matches if you want perfect 1v1 balance. Lets play chess with only pawns.

team games have to be balanced around teams.

kirito.4138:

No point in team matches if you want perfect 1v1 balance. Lets play chess with only pawns.

Chess is a balanced 1v1 game lol.
I agree with the OP, team fights will still be interesting with balanced 1v1, but the rest of the game would be so much more dynamic; imagine not having to roll a dedicated bunker, if everyone had crazy 1v1’s on the off-nodes and there was more emphasis on global positioning/map control rather just plugging 2 players into the “bunker” role and having 1 of them sit idle for 1/2 the match, then the other 2-3 into “roamer” who actually get to participate actively and have influence throughout the entire game.

tldr: balancing for 1v1 actually DOES make a huge difference, could you imagine if the devs at Riot Games decided to bump up leblanc’s hp 1000% and just said “team game, strategize noobs”?

youre missing the point of what hes saying. chess is a 1v1 game, but a queen vs a pawn is not a balanced 1v1, yet the 2 “teams of pieces” are equally balanced

JesseBensen.4817:

youre missing the point of what hes saying. chess is a 1v1 game, but a queen vs a pawn is not a balanced 1v1, yet the 2 “teams of pieces” are equally balanced

Your missing MY point lol, queens and pawns are controlled by one player; pieces are relative to class abilities. If white got a piece that could move like a queen and destroy everything around it in an aoe where it lands, and black got a piece that could move like a knight and could never be captured, the game would be where GW2 is now in terms of balance.
It’s more ethical to balance for 1v1 in a team based game, rather than to compare the element of strategy (which would be more potent in balanced environments) to an RTS. -MMORPG combat will never reach the depth of strategy-based games, it’s too fast paced. Negating balance for strategy is just a mistake to the overall design of what rpg combat is about.

bhagwad.4281:

I’ve heard some people here and perhaps Anet too say that the game is supposed to be balanced around team play and not 1v1

That’s just an excuse cos they weren’t able to balance the game around 1v1. There’s no way to balance a game around team play imo, there will always be op and up classes.
Class design in this game is good for some classes and terrible for others. Too bad devs are strong in their position. They will never admitt the thief class (just an ex here) was poorly designed. It’s like that in every game i’ve played.
Dev 1: “hey we should let mesmers teleport away and swap with their clones, let’s give them some inv skills too. Too c0000l”
Dev 2: “wait this way the game will be terribly unbalanced 1v1, what can a poor warrior do against that?”
Dev 1: “nah you just don’t understand, this game is balanced around team play, who cares if the warrior has no way to win 1v1. This idea is too c0000l we must do this”.
Dev 2: “how about thieves? Their ini mechanic is too noob friendly imo, also their stealth seems a bit op”
Dev 1: “pvp in this game is about flag capping, and this game should be balanced around that game mode. Thieves cannot cap points while stealthed so who cares. They are assassins! They must be invisible! That’s c0000l”

Fjandi.2516:

bhagwad.4281:

I’ve heard some people here and perhaps Anet too say that the game is supposed to be balanced around team play and not 1v1

That’s just an excuse cos they weren’t able to balance the game around 1v1. There’s no way to balance a game around team play imo, there will always be op and up classes.
Class design in this game is good for some classes and terrible for others. Too bad devs are strong in their position. They will never admitt the thief class (just an ex here) was poorly designed. It’s like that in every game i’ve played.
Dev 1: “hey we should let mesmers teleport away and swap with their clones, let’s give them some inv skills too. Too c0000l”
Dev 2: “wait this way the game will be terribly unbalanced 1v1, what can a poor warrior do against that?”
Dev 1: “nah you just don’t understand, this game is balanced around team play, who cares if the warrior has no way to win 1v1. This idea is too c0000l we must do this”.
Dev 2: “how about thieves? Their ini mechanic is too noob friendly imo, also their stealth seems a bit op”
Dev 1: “pvp in this game is about flag capping, and this game should be balanced around that game mode. Thieves cannot cap points while stealthed so who cares. They are assassins! They must be invisible! That’s c0000l”

It was more like; “Hey lets give class x this ability because it’s super c00l and fun to use!” -and they repeated this for every class, without thinking about how it would impact the player on the receiving end of the ability (not fun at all). It’s kind of the bi-product of overzealous creativity during ability creation phase of designing a multiplayer game.

The result is that GW2 ended up with very little counter play options for most 1v1 scenarios (what can you do if you get perma chilled as a warrior you know?). Because of this, they’ve tried to leave it up to the players to create a “meta” for them to balance around, which has yielded some hilarious results.

On a lighter note though, at least they are trying. We are very fortunate to have a dev team that cares so much about the success of the game and its PvP.

The best classes in 1v1 have always been the most desirable in teams in just about any MMORPG.
The balance in this game is not bad, there is no need for any major changes… just implement some counters to stealths, tone down bunker builds and buff the bad weapons.

Zodian.6597:

On a lighter note though, at least they are trying. We are very fortunate to have a dev team that cares so much about the success of the game and its PvP.

That’s true. J Sharp in particular seems like a smart guy and he definitely does care about the game. Let’s just hope the changes they are working on will improve pvp. Last but not least i also hope those changes will be introduced in this decade, and not too late.

1vs1 balance is bsaically impossible.

5vs5 is more reasonable goal. Besides rock paper scissors prevents this.

Ie, a bunker will beat a power dps in 1on1, all things being equal.
A condition necro will beat a bunker all things equal, in the long run.

A condition necro will (more often than 50%) lose to a power dps 1on1. ( minus power warrior who will die face flat to the necro).

there has never, in the history of any game , ever, been a game that managed 1vs1 balance with class diversity. yes it would be ideal, the problem is, its not possible.
Team balance is managable.

Honestly, no matter what happens (most) people will cry about balance when they lose. It’s just the way it is. Instead of trying to figure out how it works and what to do against it, they just want it nerfed. It’s silly, but it’s just the way it is.

This is just one example, but no one in the competitive community (NA side) changed their build/comp to bring projectile reflection when everyone was saying how overpowered rangers were. I saw 2 people use projectile reflection in their build, but I believe that was just what they always used.

bhagwad.4281:

I’ve heard some people here and perhaps Anet too say that the game is supposed to be balanced around team play and not 1v1. I beg to disagree.

1v1 is all that really matters.

If you balance for dueling, team balance will take care of itself. I win a good majority of my matchup on my mesmer and seriously wonder why warriors are even played anymore. Forget teamwork. If I can consistently win over another class 1v1 with absolutely no effort on my part, something is wrong.

I like to think I’m skilled, but there’s no way I can be that good. It’s clearly a class issue. I can take down most thieves easy, but I’ve heard Anet say that thieves are the “ultimate duelists”. That’s nonsense. Every class should be awesome in duels. Teamwork is less important that 1v1.

Lately Anet seems to be introducing more teamwork mechanics. I think that’s wrong. It should be designed such that everyone acting in their own best interests creates the optimal strategy.

Maybe, try playing another class and realise balancing around 1×1 is just silly?

Fjandi.2516:

That’s just an excuse cos they weren’t able to balance the game around 1v1. There’s no way to balance a game around team play imo, there will always be op and up classes.

Dota/HoN/LoL says hi.

Mesmer is overpowered, what’s new?

Follidus.8027:

Honestly, no matter what happens (most) people will cry about balance when they lose. It’s just the way it is. Instead of trying to figure out how it works and what to do against it, they just want it nerfed. It’s silly, but it’s just the way it is.

This is just one example, but no one in the competitive community (NA side) changed their build/comp to bring projectile reflection when everyone was saying how overpowered rangers were. I saw 2 people use projectile reflection in their build, but I believe that was just what they always used.

Seriously? Whenever I see a ranger I switch to that on my mesmer, otherwise I get pew pewed. This got brought up all the time on wow, the only way to get 1v1 balance is to make every class the same. It’s an MMorpg, you’re supposed to be playing with a group.

This thread is an embarrassing pile of whiny kitten.

If every class was balanced to be a master duelist people would get bored and leave. Rotating balance, along with dynamic team compositions is what keeps people interested. Stop crying that you lost 1v1 to a duelist class, that’s their job, learn how to play the game.

Adding in a balance on whether the class or spec is better at 1v1 or team fighting adds another level to professions as well as pvp matches and the game in general. People don’t want to sit there with their thumb up their kitten and pick from a Ford Focus and a Honda Civic, they want to pick from a variety and feel special for doing so. Oh no a Suzuki Ninja cant carry four passengers comfortably like the Focus, kitten the Ninja it shouldn’t be allowed on the road. Oh also, kitten the rednecks that want a pickup. Screw their desire to drive that half ton of dirt they dug up to roast a pig into the sunset so their 18 sons can build a jump for their ancient dirt bike.

Sampi.5079:

This thread is an embarrassing pile of whiny kitten.

If every class was balanced to be a master duelist people would get bored and leave. Rotating balance, along with dynamic team compositions is what keeps people interested. Stop crying that you lost 1v1 to a duelist class, that’s their job, learn how to play the game.

Adding in a balance on whether the class or spec is better at 1v1 or team fighting adds another level to professions as well as pvp matches and the game in general. People don’t want to sit there with their thumb up their kitten and pick from a Ford Focus and a Honda Civic, they want to pick from a variety and feel special for doing so. Oh no a Suzuki Ninja cant carry four passengers comfortably like the Focus, kitten the Ninja it shouldn’t be allowed on the road. Oh also, kitten the rednecks that want a pickup. Screw their desire to drive that half ton of dirt they dug up to roast a pig into the sunset so their 18 sons can build a jump for their ancient dirt bike.

What you and arenanet want is rock, paper, scissors… that would be fine and dandy, except its currently rock, paper, scissors, and Goku. Goku has close to no counters.. because of that, everyone wants to be Goku. Everyone thinks Goku is how all classes should be.

We players want to win because of our skill, not because I played the appropiate class. Balancing for 1v1 is the only way to go.

aaron.7850:

Sampi.5079:

This thread is an embarrassing pile of whiny kitten.

If every class was balanced to be a master duelist people would get bored and leave. Rotating balance, along with dynamic team compositions is what keeps people interested. Stop crying that you lost 1v1 to a duelist class, that’s their job, learn how to play the game.

Adding in a balance on whether the class or spec is better at 1v1 or team fighting adds another level to professions as well as pvp matches and the game in general. People don’t want to sit there with their thumb up their kitten and pick from a Ford Focus and a Honda Civic, they want to pick from a variety and feel special for doing so. Oh no a Suzuki Ninja cant carry four passengers comfortably like the Focus, kitten the Ninja it shouldn’t be allowed on the road. Oh also, kitten the rednecks that want a pickup. Screw their desire to drive that half ton of dirt they dug up to roast a pig into the sunset so their 18 sons can build a jump for their ancient dirt bike.

What you and arenanet want is rock, paper, scissors… that would be fine and dandy, except its currently rock, paper, scissors, and Goku. Goku has close to no counters.. because of that, everyone wants to be Goku. Everyone thinks Goku is how all classes should be.

We players want to win because of our skill, not because I played the appropiate class. Balancing for 1v1 is the only way to go.

Then should you not be asking for rock paper scissors?

Asking for Goku vs Goku is only going to make things worse and shorten the lifespan of this game.

You can’t win in league of legends by bringing all ad carries, you can’t win in starcraft by bringing only marauders, and you cant win in counter strike by only buying scouts.

If these people wanted to play 1v1 then they would have bought capcom vs marvel, not GW2 the Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Role Playing Game. Multiplayer games are built around playing with a team and a balanced around playing with a team.

If you enjoy duels, good on ya. Wait for the custom arenas and have fun. All i’m saying is stop trying to ruin it for the rest of us because you refuse to recognize that team composition is part of the decision making process that is pvp in this game. Being prepared for a fight is just as important as performing well during the fight. Roles that specs can fill is a complicated and interesting part of that preparation and taking that away leaves pvp dull and flat. When it comes down to a pure, one on one, absolute skill match, why bother with variables for people to whine about. Why have different characters available, different builds available, different weapons available, different maps available, and team mates to further multiply the options in front of you. Your better off 1v1 fox only no items final destination…

Honestly the OP point is being bashed down, but he has one point.

The games combat is not like Leauge of legends or any strategy game of that nature for one core difference. League of legends is designed around the eventual 5on5 team fight which makes up the last phase of the game.

Guild wars 2 is not like other games in the sense the team fight never happens. So there is no need for balancing around it. Instead fights will happen mostly in 1on1’s 2on2’s occasionally 3on3’s and rarely anything higher.

Now your left with very few roles where a game like league of legends needs a tank/initiator a ranged ad carry, an ap carry, and a jungler, and a support. Each have clearly defined roles that work together to help for great success in the game through all the phases.

What are GW2 roles? Its bunker or people trying to take a point away from a bunker. there a few combinational strategys but there is not 5 roles to fill and the matches are not built around large team combat. So in the end, the balancing has to be built towards the typical fights that will happen.

basicly, just because the matches are 5on5 doesnt mean you should balance around 5on5 fights that never happen.

Balancing for 1on1 WOULD be the way to go, if it was remotely possible.

No game, with different class diversity has EVER balanced succesfully for 1on1.

Not world of warcraft, not league of legends, not dota2.

None of them. 5vs5 balance is managable as individual class issues wash out more and more in team games. 5vs5 balance is what shoudl be aimed for because 5v5 balance IS POSSIBLE.

Zinwrath.2049:

Honestly the OP point is being bashed down, but he has one point.

The games combat is not like Leauge of legends or any strategy game of that nature for one core difference. League of legends is designed around the eventual 5on5 team fight which makes up the last phase of the game.

Guild wars 2 is not like other games in the sense the team fight never happens. So there is no need for balancing around it. Instead fights will happen mostly in 1on1’s 2on2’s occasionally 3on3’s and rarely anything higher.

Now your left with very few roles where a game like league of legends needs a tank/initiator a ranged ad carry, an ap carry, and a jungler, and a support. Each have clearly defined roles that work together to help for great success in the game through all the phases.

What are GW2 roles? Its bunker or people trying to take a point away from a bunker. there a few combinational strategys but there is not 5 roles to fill and the matches are not built around large team combat. So in the end, the balancing has to be built towards the typical fights that will happen.

basicly, just because the matches are 5on5 doesnt mean you should balance around 5on5 fights that never happen.

Lol’s roles took a long time to become as defined as they are, and even then every tournament showed the world a new meta to follow. Gw2 is no where near that far progressed. Also, try talking to some of the higherups in spvp, they can list off quite a few important roles that should be addressed when creating a team comp.

aaron.7850:

The best classes in 1v1 have always been the most desirable in teams in just about any MMORPG.

Plenty of games have had poor 1v1 classes that were dominant group classes.

Look at Shadowbane. Warrior, priest and bard were poor 1v1 duelists. But they were the core of most groups for much of the game’s existence. Six warrior, two priests, a bard and an assassin could easily beat 2-3 times their number of the strong duelist classes.

The problem with GW2 balancing around group vs. group, is that they designed their maps in a way that splits everyone up and forces a lot of 1v1 fights. They need to go back and look at WAR to see how they designed the maps to keep groups together.

I beg to differ. I’ve play my share of games that both team play and duels, and the difference is very noticeable. Some things that are balanced in team fights are over powered in duels, and the inverse is very true too.
In GW2, a good example would be Bladetrail. An okay ranged attack on a single target, but it maxes out it’s effectiveness when there are two opponents, then it’s effectiveness decreases as you add more opponents.
Another example would be P/P thieves. They’re pretty weak against groups but they become much better against single targets. (Even if they still are arguably sub-par)

People pushing for team balance and developers having this mindset is a pretty good reason why the interest in this game is nowhere where it should be. Losing to facerolling builds in 1v1 situations just makes you wanna log off and play something else. 1v1 balance can never be perfect but it should come reasonably close if this game is ever to be taken seriously.

Balance is the least of this games concerns and is pretty good.

I made a thief and a Mesmer yesterday (normally play a DPS GS Guard and a axe/mace warrior).

Now I’m rackin 300 points per hotjoin game and actually winnin Tourny’s as a solo que instead of making my team feel 4v5 with me in there.

I know this might make me seem terribly elitist and uninterested in working with a team (which isn’t the case), but 1v1 capability is the primary thing I look for in any build. I don’t need to kill anyone, but I do want a chance to at least survive against one other opponent if I play my cards right.

That said, this game is probably closer to being balanced in terms of 1v1 than any other MMORPG I’ve played. For instance, staff eles are terrible 1v1, but they can still build defensively so that they can hold their own against an enemy and adopt a more support-oriented role.

daydream.2938:

1vs1 balance is bsaically impossible.

5vs5 is more reasonable goal. Besides rock paper scissors prevents this.

Ie, a bunker will beat a power dps in 1on1, all things being equal.
A condition necro will beat a bunker all things equal, in the long run.

A condition necro will (more often than 50%) lose to a power dps 1on1. ( minus power warrior who will die face flat to the necro).

there has never, in the history of any game , ever, been a game that managed 1vs1 balance with class diversity. yes it would be ideal, the problem is, its not possible.
Team balance is managable.

Well if that’s the case why there are individual classes in pvp? there should be a team like a football team that consists of a forward a defender a goalie and a midfielder .. they are all football players same class but different roles.. if you have different classes you should have a 1vs1 balance end of story.

I completely agree with the OP.
I’d like to note though, that if you actually meet another guy who has specced a 1v1 build, you will not take him down easily. You experience this gap more than others because you’re playing mesmer, and they are EXTREMELY good at 1v1’s compared to most other classes.
Take a ranger, guardian or elementalist and match them with equal 1v1 builds, those fights will take forever and be very exciting. These are the classes that i currently have experience with, and i dont feel a huge imbalance between them. The problem is that most people suck at creating builds. No wonder rangers that have only specced condition damage will suck.
(Elementalists are still a little OP, and some of the ranger weapon-sets needs a huge buff. Looking at you axes!)
But overall all classes can actually spec for a good 1v1 build, the problem is that the current game-type is favoring bunkers way too much. And if you’ve specced for a 1v1 build, you will never take down a bunker alone.

This is a very silly thread.

This game was very clearly designed with teamplay in mind. Ignoring most of the standard arguments I could make about most MMO’s, no other game I’ve ever played has the concept of combo fields and combo finishers.

First about chess. If u pro player u know that white side has advantages at black. Because they make first step. Black have to play more defensive. But that’s why they play a lot of matches at championship. So this game is pretty balanced. (compared to MMO u have skills and the opponent have the same skills… like Counter Strike – this game is balanced 1×1)

Second about LoL. It said it is teamplay game. Yes it is But it becomes teamplay after 15 minut of staying 1×1 or 2×2 at ur line. So every meta based on champions who strong against 1×1 (expept AoE setup but it’s rare to see because of snowball pick on mid or top). If u pick ur role and enemy compleatly dominate u – u will be useless in late game (cheaper gear, no tanky, no dmg). And that’s why game will end like 4.5 against 5.5.

So the OP is right. This game needs 1×1 proper balance. Someone compares about WoW but sometiems they has smth which looked like 1×1 balance. Some classes was up maybe near op but patches did their work. And there was no champions who can go in hit hard and go away (if they are in the same gear). Because of hard CC from every class.

Try to find good thief, or run for ele. This both is impossible to do.

And PvP for warrior it is so awfull.

P.S. Sry for bad English. But i like the ideas and how the game was made. But their realisation is not even normal.

You’re all missing the kittening point. When I say this is a team game and needs to be considered and balanced as such, it’s not because there are no 1v1s going on and the game is all about teamfights.

Think about it, what will actually happen if they try to make every class balanced to 1v1? It will all become static, and then you will have no dynamics, no propper roles, NOTHING, just balanced builds for every1 which is utterly boring.

You’ll stop having people and classes specializing in what they actually were built for. Thieves won’t be there to provide the extra burst, guardian won’t be there to hold points (cus supposedly he’ll need some damage for the 1v1s l0l), necros won’t be going for condi or power well, just every kitten class will be looking for one balanced build where they can fight every other class.
Guess what? team games don’t work like that, contrary to popular belief team games don’t exactly rely on individual plays, you see the top teams playing in any online game, and what makes them be the best or beat other top teams isn’t individual skills, it’s their teamwork and the specialization on what they do that benefits the team.

Team games naturally have specializations, thats why you have a goalkeeper, a defender, attacker etc on soccer games, you don’t see defenders trying to be goalkeepers and stuff like that! You don’t see ad carries trying to be AP carries, because that’s not what they have been traniing and specializing for. Really just picture how boring it would be to have every1 play balanced 1v1 builds.

I don’t wanna see headless people running around thinking they can do everything, kill people 1v1, hold points, tank, burst etc.

I’ll go into another topic to clear ideas up about thieves.

Get this through your head people, just because your getting killed by a thief, it doesn’t mean they are overpowered, it might mean you had a bad play, or you haven’t figured out how to fight him, or he was just plain better than you.

Thieves can’t fight by themselves against every class and there’s people actually acting like it (obviously if you’re a great player you’ll be able to perform good). Thieves have a hard time fighting trap rangers, condi engies, mesmers, etcetcetc.

Matter of fact thieves aren’t really a 1v1 class. Because of their low health pool and low sustain, they can’t fight for a long time, they just rely on quick burst and if it fails, thers not much to it, the longer the ’’1v1’’ drags on, the worse for the thief. So definetely not a 1v1 class.

Thieves are there to provide bursts and kills IN a team environment, people who think thief is a solo class that u can just go around and kill every1 in 1v1 are dead wrong and are bad players. They usually help side points and engange on 2v1’s or teamfights in general rather than going for 1v1s, believe that, there’s no arguement about that here. Obviously in hotjoins its a different story, but who the kitten cares anyways, we’r talking about actually STRUCTURED PvP here.

Hugo.9743:

You’re all missing the kittening point. When I say this is a team game and needs to be considered and balanced as such, it’s not because there are no 1v1s going on and the game is all about teamfights.

Think about it, what will actually happen if they try to make every class balanced to 1v1? It will all become static, and then you will have no dynamics, no propper roles, NOTHING, just balanced builds for every1 which is utterly boring.

You’ll stop having people and classes specializing in what they actually were built for. Thieves won’t be there to provide the extra burst, guardian won’t be there to hold points (cus supposedly he’ll need some damage for the 1v1s l0l), necros won’t be going for condi or power well, just every kitten class will be looking for one balanced build where they can fight every other class.
Guess what? team games don’t work like that, contrary to popular belief team games don’t exactly rely on individual plays, you see the top teams playing in any online game, and what makes them be the best or beat other top teams isn’t individual skills, it’s their teamwork and the specialization on what they do that benefits the team.

Team games naturally have specializations, thats why you have a goalkeeper, a defender, attacker etc on soccer games, you don’t see defenders trying to be goalkeepers and stuff like that! You don’t see ad carries trying to be AP carries, because that’s not what they have been traniing and specializing for. Really just picture how boring it would be to have every1 play balanced 1v1 builds.

I don’t wanna see headless people running around thinking they can do everything, kill people 1v1, hold points, tank, burst etc.

I’ll go into another topic to clear ideas up about thieves.

Get this through your head people, just because your getting killed by a thief, it doesn’t mean they are overpowered, it might mean you had a bad play, or you haven’t figured out how to fight him, or he was just plain better than you.

Thieves can’t fight by themselves against every class and there’s people actually acting like it (obviously if you’re a great player you’ll be able to perform good). Thieves have a hard time fighting trap rangers, condi engies, mesmers, etcetcetc.

Matter of fact thieves aren’t really a 1v1 class. Because of their low health pool and low sustain, they can’t fight for a long time, they just rely on quick burst and if it fails, thers not much to it, the longer the ’’1v1’’ drags on, the worse for the thief. So definetely not a 1v1 class.

Thieves are there to provide bursts and kills IN a team environment, people who think thief is a solo class that u can just go around and kill every1 in 1v1 are dead wrong and are bad players. They usually help side points and engange on 2v1’s or teamfights in general rather than going for 1v1s, believe that, there’s no arguement about that here. Obviously in hotjoins its a different story, but who the kitten cares anyways, we’r talking about actually STRUCTURED PvP here.

Hotjoins are probably the most important aspect of PvP. You have to cater to hotjoins first and tournaments second. And for that, 1v1 is the only thing that matters.

I don’t think you’ve read my post, I’ve just explained what happens when you try to make an MMO, team game, a 1v1 oriented game. Read it again and give me something I can work with.

I’ll still address the hotjoin situation: The only importance I see for hotjoins, is only it being a platform for people to start playing, getting to know the game, and meet other people. That’s it. Not even casual gamers are supposed to be on hotjoins, the way i see it the goal here is to have that ladder/ratings and matchmaking sorted out. And if we got those things lined and polished, casual gamers WILL solo queue and have fun with it, and that’s what you’re trying to apply to hotjoins, which is wrong and unappliable.

Hotjoins is just a place to get to know the game and meet other people .You’re supposed to jump off from that ASAP. If you don’t then you’re not bringing anything competitive to the game and will never influence the game in ANY way, you’re worth is 0 for the community – Think about it: you’re just a random bot playing in hotjoins, why do we need that type of people anywhere else? We do need the ones that have potential and that will stick/glue to the game, and those will get out of hotjoins ASAP. The game won’t grow out of hotjoins, it will grow out of good decisions for sPvP and competitiveness wise. Competition and good level of playing attracts other players too.

EDIT: Put it like this, the game doesn’t have to be attractive on hotjoins because at that level and during that period players just don’t give a kitten, they are trying to learn the game, their char and every other basic individual aspect. IT DOES need to be attractive on solo queues and team tourneys because that’s where the casual and competitive scene will or SHOULD land. The reason it hasn’t been like that it’s just because Anet hasn’t reached that goal yet, and solo queues suck kitten and we don’t have a ladder or ratings yet.

Hugo.9743:

It will all become static, and then you will have no dynamics, no propper roles, NOTHING, just balanced builds for every1 which is utterly boring.

So we agree here , that we shouldnt nerf any more Ele and Guardians and w8 in the far far future , for a new spec to show up (when they buff the useles talents)
I wonder how many times will will try to chop the developers heads , if they wont nerf Ele :P

Edit:

If you don’t then you’re not bringing anything competitive to the game and will never influence the game in ANY way, you’re worth is 0 for the community

If u have a plan to bring up 5.ooo-10.000 competitive players asap , i am all ears
Ohterwise those <<scrubs>> can use used as
a) Paying Scrubs > fule thos money for live tournies> more competitive player
b) viweres> larger money prize from the twitch

We need those scrubs
Or we should try to gather 50.000 dollars from the current playerbase+500 competive player that want the e-sport fetures to join again+ 500/1000 scrubs that havent playd cause of those missing features

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Hugo.9743:

It will all become static, and then you will have no dynamics, no propper roles, NOTHING, just balanced builds for every1 which is utterly boring.

So we agree here , that we shouldnt nerf any more Ele and Guardians and w8 in the far far future , for a new spec to show up (when they buff the useles talents)
I wonder how many times will will try to chop the developers heads , if they wont nerf Ele :P

I personally don’t think eles and guardians need nerfs, but if they do it HAS to be some really minor stuff, if they nerf it hard we take the risk of making either those classes useless or making them change the roles and dynamics of the game (which can be good or bad). The important thing here is to make changes (nerf or empower) with “this is a teamgame/role based” mentality and not the 1v1 one, if it’s done like that I don’t think I’ll have problems unless it’s something ridiculous.

As for originality and preventing the game from being static, besides what i said ther’s other things like reworking skills and making other weapons viable, etcetcetc.

EDIT: Well first of all, when you see new people going on hotjoins they’ve already injected money into the company, there’s no going back on that from that point on. Also they won’t or shouldn’t be worried about anything else but learning how to play the basics aspects of the game.

And it’s not like people won’t buy the game because THEY KNOW that hotjoins suck, because well they don’t and because thers much more to it when you consider on buying a game lol.

Theres a chance that they can <<rent>>a custom arena with real money or buy PvP skins or whaterver the company will create later on
LoL with skins is very profitable :P

I always like it when hotjoin heroes give their most valuable input.

Hugo.9743:

I don’t think you’ve read my post, I’ve just explained what happens when you try to make an MMO, team game, a 1v1 oriented game. Read it again and give me something I can work with.

I’ll still address the hotjoin situation: The only importance I see for hotjoins, is only it being a platform for people to start playing, getting to know the game, and meet other people. That’s it. Not even casual gamers are supposed to be on hotjoins, the way i see it the goal here is to have that ladder/ratings and matchmaking sorted out. And if we got those things lined and polished, casual gamers WILL solo queue and have fun with it, and that’s what you’re trying to apply to hotjoins, which is wrong and unappliable.

Hotjoins is just a place to get to know the game and meet other people .You’re supposed to jump off from that ASAP. If you don’t then you’re not bringing anything competitive to the game and will never influence the game in ANY way, you’re worth is 0 for the community – Think about it: you’re just a random bot playing in hotjoins, why do we need that type of people anywhere else? We do need the ones that have potential and that will stick/glue to the game, and those will get out of hotjoins ASAP. The game won’t grow out of hotjoins, it will grow out of good decisions for sPvP and competitiveness wise. Competition and good level of playing attracts other players too.

EDIT: Put it like this, the game doesn’t have to be attractive on hotjoins because at that level and during that period players just don’t give a kitten, they are trying to learn the game, their char and every other basic individual aspect. IT DOES need to be attractive on solo queues and team tourneys because that’s where the casual and competitive scene will or SHOULD land. The reason it hasn’t been like that it’s just because Anet hasn’t reached that goal yet, and solo queues suck kitten and we don’t have a ladder or ratings yet.

At r32, I play hotjoins exclusively. And even if they implement a solo queue, I want 1v1 balance because honestly I get more satisfaction from killing and not dying than from holding a kitten point.

I am what you may call a “professional hot join player”. I don’t do it to “learn my character” or “try things out”. I do it to get glory. And I get more glory from hotjoins than tourneys because I don’t get points for just sitting on a point defending it.

Most people just want to log in and play. Teamwork that arises spontaneously out of everyone already doing what’s best for them is the most effective. Sure, solo queues will be a huge improvement, but even then it takes 2 minutes to start a game during which time I can be earning glory in hotjoin. It’s a waste.

I’m looking forward to solo queues and will definitely use them when they come up. But that doesn’t negate the need for 1v1 balance. I want to feel powerful and capable and for that I need to hold my own against any class in the game. 1 on 1. Teamwork and secondary goals come later.

And the fact that I get more glory from hotjoins is proof that this is how the game is meant to be played. Hotjoins first and foremost. Teamwork and tournaments are afterthoughts for those who want to play a different kind of game.

I think u missed the point. Teamplay balance is starting with 1×1 balance. WoW started to do 2×2 3×3 5×5 and what do we see? Some DD class can forget about killing heal class in same gear. And they have to runing aroung for 30 minutes. So interesting.

Yes, it is utopia to make excelent 1×1 balance in MMO. But this is not mean not to try do it. Some classes always be up some down. But patches fix it (like in LoL (whatch Eve’s patch notes for example), or WoW as a Aren MMO game).

But what we can see in this game. Good thief can play God mode in WwWwW (look wideos on Youtube). Can any class do the same? Answer – Not even close.

Compare to 1×1 play for warrior against good opponent – u even can’t dmg him for halp of his hp. Or u just can do it using all ur CD, and if u missed with smth – u will be failed.

Compare it to ele who can go in cast a lot of AOE and go out. I can say the only one thing this game needs to be rebalanced so hard.

balance me some guardian bunker with burst thief.
then the same 2 classes after the balance with a romaing ele, then with a mesmer and ranger….explain me how to do that kind of 1v1 balance

Shukran.4851:

balance me some guardian bunker with burst thief.
then the same 2 classes after the balance with a romaing ele, then with a mesmer and ranger….explain me how to do that kind of 1v1 balance

Why do you think it’s difficult? Or even impossible? All we’re saying is that it should be a fair and entertaining 1v1 fight with equal chances for either side to win. That’s not a hard concept to grasp.

It shouldn’t be a faceroll one way or the other.

bhagwad.4281:

Hugo.9743:

I don’t think you’ve read my post, I’ve just explained what happens when you try to make an MMO, team game, a 1v1 oriented game. Read it again and give me something I can work with.

I’ll still address the hotjoin situation: The only importance I see for hotjoins, is only it being a platform for people to start playing, getting to know the game, and meet other people. That’s it. Not even casual gamers are supposed to be on hotjoins, the way i see it the goal here is to have that ladder/ratings and matchmaking sorted out. And if we got those things lined and polished, casual gamers WILL solo queue and have fun with it, and that’s what you’re trying to apply to hotjoins, which is wrong and unappliable.

Hotjoins is just a place to get to know the game and meet other people .You’re supposed to jump off from that ASAP. If you don’t then you’re not bringing anything competitive to the game and will never influence the game in ANY way, you’re worth is 0 for the community – Think about it: you’re just a random bot playing in hotjoins, why do we need that type of people anywhere else? We do need the ones that have potential and that will stick/glue to the game, and those will get out of hotjoins ASAP. The game won’t grow out of hotjoins, it will grow out of good decisions for sPvP and competitiveness wise. Competition and good level of playing attracts other players too.

EDIT: Put it like this, the game doesn’t have to be attractive on hotjoins because at that level and during that period players just don’t give a kitten, they are trying to learn the game, their char and every other basic individual aspect. IT DOES need to be attractive on solo queues and team tourneys because that’s where the casual and competitive scene will or SHOULD land. The reason it hasn’t been like that it’s just because Anet hasn’t reached that goal yet, and solo queues suck kitten and we don’t have a ladder or ratings yet.

At r32, I play hotjoins exclusively. And even if they implement a solo queue, I want 1v1 balance because honestly I get more satisfaction from killing and not dying than from holding a kitten point.

I am what you may call a “professional hot join player”. I don’t do it to “learn my character” or “try things out”. I do it to get glory. And I get more glory from hotjoins than tourneys because I don’t get points for just sitting on a point defending it.

Most people just want to log in and play. Teamwork that arises spontaneously out of everyone already doing what’s best for them is the most effective. Sure, solo queues will be a huge improvement, but even then it takes 2 minutes to start a game during which time I can be earning glory in hotjoin. It’s a waste.

I’m looking forward to solo queues and will definitely use them when they come up. But that doesn’t negate the need for 1v1 balance. I want to feel powerful and capable and for that I need to hold my own against any class in the game. 1 on 1. Teamwork and secondary goals come later.

And the fact that I get more glory from hotjoins is proof that this is how the game is meant to be played. Hotjoins first and foremost. Teamwork and tournaments are afterthoughts for those who want to play a different kind of game.

If all you care about is 1v1 then you should have NO problem with all of this. You can build 1v1 oriented builds with any class right now and be sucessful with it, ill put my hands on this. Every class has enough traits, weapon sets, breakstuns, heals, stats for you to work something out and give a fight to any class out there.

Mind you, you want to feel powerful and 1v1, but bear in mind you can’t, won’t and shouldn’t feel invencible. Classes have their weaknesses just aswell as they have strong points. And there’s always gonna be better and worse players.

You can’t really tell me you won’t play solo queue because you’ll have to wait 2 minutes. Can’t wait 2 minutes for a match that will give u more quality than in hotjoins? And well I have to say it got me thinking if you say you’re winning more glory in hotjoins because you don’t every tournament you enter (just a thought) and if you actually consider that a bad thing. The fact you win more glory in hotjoins doesn’t prove anything, at all to be honest.

Now, I hope you do realise you’re looking at this game in a very twisted and different way. hotjoins IS DEFINETELY NOT the goal of anet, it’s rather insulting to say something even remotely similar to that.

But hey I respect your way of playing this game, I’m not gonna sit here and flame hotjoin heroes and all that, but it’s just… well it’s not supposed to happen in my opinion. Solo queue, with the right workouts, should be what you are portrating or want to portrait as hotjoins, with actually better skill level.

bhagwad.4281:

Shukran.4851:

balance me some guardian bunker with burst thief.
then the same 2 classes after the balance with a romaing ele, then with a mesmer and ranger….explain me how to do that kind of 1v1 balance

Why do you think it’s difficult? Or even impossible? All we’re saying is that it should be a fair and entertaining 1v1 fight with equal chances for either side to win. That’s not a hard concept to grasp.

It shouldn’t be a faceroll one way or the other.

ok.
so u make now some theorycraft and convic me u are right. maybe im blind. should be possible. i will read it all.

Hugo.9743:

You’re all missing the kittening point. When I say this is a team game and needs to be considered and balanced as such, it’s not because there are no 1v1s going on and the game is all about teamfights.

Think about it, what will actually happen if they try to make every class balanced to 1v1? It will all become static, and then you will have no dynamics, no propper roles, NOTHING, just balanced builds for every1 which is utterly boring.

You’ll stop having people and classes specializing in what they actually were built for. Thieves won’t be there to provide the extra burst, guardian won’t be there to hold points (cus supposedly he’ll need some damage for the 1v1s l0l), necros won’t be going for condi or power well, just every kitten class will be looking for one balanced build where they can fight every other class.
Guess what? team games don’t work like that, contrary to popular belief team games don’t exactly rely on individual plays, you see the top teams playing in any online game, and what makes them be the best or beat other top teams isn’t individual skills, it’s their teamwork and the specialization on what they do that benefits the team.

Team games naturally have specializations, thats why you have a goalkeeper, a defender, attacker etc on soccer games, you don’t see defenders trying to be goalkeepers and stuff like that! You don’t see ad carries trying to be AP carries, because that’s not what they have been traniing and specializing for. Really just picture how boring it would be to have every1 play balanced 1v1 builds.

I don’t wanna see headless people running around thinking they can do everything, kill people 1v1, hold points, tank, burst etc.

I’ll go into another topic to clear ideas up about thieves.

Get this through your head people, just because your getting killed by a thief, it doesn’t mean they are overpowered, it might mean you had a bad play, or you haven’t figured out how to fight him, or he was just plain better than you.

Thieves can’t fight by themselves against every class and there’s people actually acting like it (obviously if you’re a great player you’ll be able to perform good). Thieves have a hard time fighting trap rangers, condi engies, mesmers, etcetcetc.

Matter of fact thieves aren’t really a 1v1 class. Because of their low health pool and low sustain, they can’t fight for a long time, they just rely on quick burst and if it fails, thers not much to it, the longer the ’’1v1’’ drags on, the worse for the thief. So definetely not a 1v1 class.

Thieves are there to provide bursts and kills IN a team environment, people who think thief is a solo class that u can just go around and kill every1 in 1v1 are dead wrong and are bad players. They usually help side points and engange on 2v1’s or teamfights in general rather than going for 1v1s, believe that, there’s no arguement about that here. Obviously in hotjoins its a different story, but who the kitten cares anyways, we’r talking about actually STRUCTURED PvP here.

This.

Thank god dev teams dont go to public forums for paradigm.

Hugo.9743 : i agree your statement. but my mind is locked to gw1. there were not nuke builds. just dps builds. the 8team build called “spikes” was a teamplay strategy to focus dmg at the same time.
etcetc i think/hope u played gw1 so you already know my pov.

probably it is a matter of map objective= cap points = no gw1 style.

Yeah I know how it was on GW1, you never really had the roles you have in here, and come to think of it, the way the maps were designed and everything actually oriented to teamplay a lot. The necro and ele spike teams, the trapper teams and everything… But the game design was different, It’s hard for me to point out exactly what and how it is different, but it is. It’s a different game with different mechanics, different maps, strategies and etc.

Bear in mind I’m in no way comparing the two games and none of the two are superior, it’s just different with, again, pros and cons.
We work with what we got (I’m sure we all like the game anyways or we wouldn’t be wasting time talking about it)!

we LIKED the game and because of the time and money and mind we spent on it we are here to scream anet to do something smart, for once. for pvp.
that’s all.

As a warrior i have to say:

If they continue to “balance” game around 5v5 have fun. Thees a reason why we see many mesmers, d/d eles and so on. Its all cause they are extremely strong in 1v1.

Those ppl don’t post here, they don’t care about it either, they jus want to be strong in 1v1 and rely on themself like i do, but i can’t cause my class sux donkey balls. By that i have abandomed GW2 pvp, and if i want play pvp i goes to Crysis 3.

A game should be based on invidual skill, the current meta don’t promotes that, instead punishing for it – if u want to be good at 1v1 roll op class.

Its not fun for me, not fun for others, and u guys wonder why pvp is dead.

Like i said if they continue balancing this game around 5v5 have fun..with urself

And keep in mind that 1v1 balance is superior to 5v5.

Teamwork? U will keep that easily with balance around 1v1, and maybe we will also see something diff than 2x d/d ele, mesmer and something else.

so u have a warrior. u can answer my post too.

Shukran.4851:

ok.
so u make now some theorycraft and convic me u are right. maybe im blind. should be possible. i will read it all.

Althow 1v1 seems correct , sadly it aint. Balancing for 1v1 will eventually lead to some OP composition & combos.