Guild Wars 2

ele still broken as kitten plz fix

Reaper counters Tempest with a coordinated team. As long as you have someone else to focus DPS the tempest and get it down past its passive condition immunity, a reaper condition and poison spamming a tempest will eventually be enough to take it down which is fine. Tempest has a counter, Chrono did not.

Interpretor.3091:

Reaper counters Tempest with a coordinated team. As long as you have someone else to focus DPS the tempest and get it down past its passive condition immunity, a reaper condition and poison spamming a tempest will eventually be enough to take it down which is fine. Tempest has a counter, Chrono did not.

Reaper and DH were the counter to Chrono. We’ve gone from 2 counters to 1.

When are people going to admit it was never about how strong the builds were, just that Mesmer was in the meta.

Interpretor.3091:

Reaper counters Tempest with a coordinated team. As long as you have someone else to focus DPS the tempest and get it down past its passive condition immunity, a reaper condition and poison spamming a tempest will eventually be enough to take it down which is fine. Tempest has a counter, Chrono did not.

So,… what if ! Tempest has a coordinated team as well ?

Hilarious when people bring up a “teamplay” card and suddenly forget, that teamplay works both ways.

Guys, we should all welcome necro back to the meta

Yea healing from auras is 2 much

Levetty.1279:

Interpretor.3091:

Reaper counters Tempest with a coordinated team. As long as you have someone else to focus DPS the tempest and get it down past its passive condition immunity, a reaper condition and poison spamming a tempest will eventually be enough to take it down which is fine. Tempest has a counter, Chrono did not.

Reaper and DH were the counter to Chrono. We’ve gone from 2 counters to 1.

When are people going to admit it was never about how strong the builds were, just that Mesmer was in the meta.

Reaper and DH barely countered Chronomancer, only be being able to daze and chill through shield blocks, but not blurred frenzy or precog.

I’m a necro main so I know what I’m talking about. Just because I showed up to a fight didn’t necessarily mean that the chronomancer bunking mid would die in a reasonable time frame. The only way it would happen would be if he was running all wells and blew all of his cooldowns while I still had corrupt boon or well of corruption or what have you. Those bunker mesmers running null field, heal mantra, or temporal enchanter were much harder to take down because they had better condi clear and access to higher amounts of resistance, which is often too much general boon production to strip. Add a tempest with soldier runes and the condis will have even a lesser chance to stick.

I’ve won 1v1s against bunker mesmers, but it took over three minutes to happen. Yeah 3 minutes to bait out cooldowns until one side gives in sure sounds like an extreme hardcounter in the favor of the reaper to me. I mean at that point the fight would probably be turned by allies if there wasn’t bunker tumor metastes going on elsewhere..

Furthermore DH/reaper were pushed out of the meta by a combination of atributes from condi rev and tempest, including diamond skin, perma resistance, perma protection, and high group projectile hate and better condi pressure. I mean don’t get me wrong, tempest and rev need nerfs too, as do the majority of elite specs, except for maybe berserker.

But I encourage you to see beyond your blatant mesmer bias and see how pre-nerf bunker mesmer ruined to fun in pvp for anyone playing against it.

nearlight.3064:

Levetty.1279:

Interpretor.3091:

Reaper counters Tempest with a coordinated team. As long as you have someone else to focus DPS the tempest and get it down past its passive condition immunity, a reaper condition and poison spamming a tempest will eventually be enough to take it down which is fine. Tempest has a counter, Chrono did not.

Reaper and DH were the counter to Chrono. We’ve gone from 2 counters to 1.

When are people going to admit it was never about how strong the builds were, just that Mesmer was in the meta.

Reaper and DH barely countered Chronomancer, only be being able to daze and chill through shield blocks, but not blurred frenzy or precog.

I’m a necro main so I know what I’m talking about. Just because I showed up to a fight didn’t necessarily mean that the chronomancer bunking mid would die in a reasonable time frame. The only way it would happen would be if he was running all wells and blew all of his cooldowns while I still had corrupt boon or well of corruption or what have you. Those bunker mesmers running null field, heal mantra, or temporal enchanter were much harder to take down because they had better condi clear and access to higher amounts of resistance, which is often too much general boon production to quit. Add a tempest with soldier runes and the condis will have even a lesser chance to stick.

I’ve won 1v1s against bunker mesmers, but it took over three minutes to happen. Yeah 3 minutes to bait out cooldowns until one side gives in sure sounds like an extreme hardcounter in the favor of the reaper to me. I mean at that point the fight would probably be turned by allies if there wasn’t bunker tumor metastes going on elsewhere..

Furthermore DH/reaper were pushed out of the meta by a combination of atributes from condi rev and tempest, including diamond skin, perma resistance, perma protection, and high group projectile hate and better condi pressure. I mean don’t get me wrong, tempest and rev need nerfs too, as do the majority of elite specs, except for maybe berserker.

But I encourage you to see beyond your blatant mesmer bias and see how pre-nerf bunker mesmer ruined to fun in pvp for anyone playing against it.

Well said.

lloydst.6985:

ele still broken as kitten plz fix

As someone who played bunker chrono A LOT, I love it but deep down I know something had to change. Yeah I was strong, but something wasn’t right. Then I realized, this meta is actually really, really boring.

I think chronos should be allowed to tank in a more balanced way, but in a meta where nearly everything is a tank in tier 1 it becomes stale. It’s kinda like watching 5 AH guards fight each otherthat can do slightly more damage. Slow, repetitive and no variety.

I never really saw reaper or DH as a counter, I could handle them quite nicely. I actually think condi revenant was my best counter in 1v1s. Tempest does have notable flaws including average mobility, but we need more dps professions. We need something that can hit hard, we need our power shiro, we need our thieves, we need our warriors, DHs, etc. something for some variety.

nearlight.3064:

1v1s against bunker mesmers

Well I was going to stop at this because complaining 1v1ing a bunker takes a long time is very stupid but I’m glad I carried on because I got to the even more ridiculous ‘Reapers and DH can’t beat revs and Tempests so lets nerf Mesmers to get more Tempests into PvP’.

Now if you can get over your blatant anti-mesmer bias you will see my only bias is about people like you, and how your refusal to actually learn how to play, are removing all complexity out of the game to the point PvP becomes a laughing stock among competitive games and PvE becomes spam 1 event zergs because Anet can’t make any class more complicated (thus can’t make any fight more complicated) then that without facing the wrath of this disgusting community and their selfish whines about one tiny mode in the game.

DrDivine.5378:

lloydst.6985:

ele still broken as kitten plz fix

As someone who played bunker chrono A LOT, I love it but deep down I know something had to change. Yeah I was strong, but something wasn’t right. Then I realized, this meta is actually really, really boring.

I think chronos should be allowed to tank in a more balanced way, but in a meta where nearly everything is a tank in tier 1 it becomes stale. It’s kinda like watching 5 AH guards fight each otherthat can do slightly more damage. Slow, repetitive and no variety.

I never really saw reaper or DH as a counter, I could handle them quite nicely. I actually think condi revenant was my best counter in 1v1s. Tempest does have notable flaws including average mobility, but we need more dps professions. We need something that can hit hard, we need our power shiro, we need our thieves, we need our warriors, DHs, etc. something for some variety.

So Chrono Bunker has to take one for the greater good, while other tanky builds are allow to exist, such as Ele that has been part of meta for so long? Good to know…

Tempest needs looked at as well. It isn’t about fixing all of the metas problems at once though. They are pretty clear about that. They aren’t going to micro manage the balance mid season. If something is glaringly wrong (like condi and mesmers were) they will address it.

Tempest is on borrowed time I imagine. They are either facing some nerfs as well within the next month, or other professions will be changed to deal with bunker builds better. Either way I haven’t seen anything bad here and the two classes I play most are mesmer and rev lol. The greater good is the greater good.

Levetty.1279:

nearlight.3064:

1v1s against bunker mesmers

Well I was going to stop at this because complaining 1v1ing a bunker takes a long time is very stupid but I’m glad I carried on because I got to the even more ridiculous ‘Reapers and DH can’t beat revs and Tempests so lets nerf Mesmers to get more Tempests into PvP’.

Now if you can get over your blatant anti-mesmer bias you will see my only bias is about people like you, and how your refusal to actually learn how to play, are removing all complexity out of the game to the point PvP becomes a laughing stock among competitive games and PvE becomes spam 1 event zergs because Anet can’t make any class more complicated (thus can’t make any fight more complicated) then that without facing the wrath of this disgusting community and their selfish whines about one tiny mode in the game.

Look at my signature. Would someone who displays the fact that they have a champion illusionist title have an anti-mesmer bias? The only reason you have a blatant mesmer bias is because you’re blindly defending it. I on the other hand want the best for this game. If you asked me how I’d think of nerfing reaper chill damage from my main, I’d agree if it would help the health of the game.

When I mentioned 1v1ing a bunker mesmer, I meant in a situation where you do it to either prevent them from decapping your point (they may try to force decaps with gravity wells) or to prevent them from fullcapping a neutral point. I would never 1v1 a bunker mesmer on a point that they owned.

About rev and tempest. After the rev nerf, its more feasible to beat rev as a necromancer. Tempests are also able to be beaten as a necromancer if you just have help to strip the diamond skin. Tempests will die when focused far quicker than when mesmers are focused because they typically only one invuln (which prevents capture point contrib) instead of 1 evade skill, 2 blocks on a low cooldown and 2 distortions on a longer cooldown (formerly 2 evades and 1 distort of course).

You also seem upset that mesmer was slightly nerfed at tanking in PvE, based on your other posts in the mesmer forums. Well I’m sorry about that, but PvE is not competitive, and if anet refuses to split skill balance, PvP should take precendence, as real money is on the line in tournamnets. Do you think its fair that all these scrub teams would get a huge advantage over the better teams like the abjured for running bunker mes back when they didn’t? Do you think its healthy to have tournament games decided by whoever gets the first cap? I mean if that continued with tempests as the super bunker, you might have an argument, but since tempest is much easier to kill in a teamfight, I doubt that this will be the case.

As an ele/tempest main, I agree that tempest, just like just about all other elite specs, need to be toned down to be more in line with core specs.

However, your attempts to make it a “kill mesmer” conspiracy is also going too far.

Any decent PvPer can tell you that the problem with chrono bunker was that they could negate an absurd amount of incoming damage while contesting the capture points, not to mention the boons they’re constantly sharing. A single chrono-bunker can 1 v 2 or 1 v 3 for an unreasonable time. There were simply a general lack of counterplays to them.

With a tempest, there were and still are counterplays. Tempests heal a lot and have high damage reduction, but you can easily CC → boon corrupt/strip → kill. They don’t have blocks, they don’t have utility skills that give them evades, and they definitely have a lack of stunbreaks/stability if they’re running support. Even a carefully played daredevil can actually effectively deal with a tempest.

Long story short, tempests should and will get nerfed, but even now there are still more counterplays against them than there ever was against the chrono-bunker. Balance may not be perfect, but this is better than before

Tempests need shaving, NOT outright nukes, to their bunker capability. They always had more counterplay than bunker Chrono ever did, and still have counterplay today (in any situation besides a 1v1 against a pure condi build.)

The people defending the pre-nerf bunker Chrono are either genuinely or willfully ignorant. It’s not like bunker Chrono has been nerfed to the ground.

nearlight.3064:

You also seem upset that mesmer was slightly nerfed at tanking in PvE, based on your other posts in the mesmer forums. Well I’m sorry about that, but PvE is not competitive, and if anet refuses to split skill balance, PvP should take precendence, as real money is on the line in tournamnets. Do you think its fair that all these scrub teams would get a huge advantage over the better teams like the abjured for running bunker mes back when they didn’t? Do you think its healthy to have tournament games decided by whoever gets the first cap? I mean if that continued with tempests as the super bunker, you might have an argument, but since tempest is much easier to kill in a teamfight, I doubt that this will be the case.

I’ve had 3 years of Mesmer being at the bottom of the PvE pole and still recieve nerfs due to PvP whines. Now that Mesmer is acutally fun and useful in PvE (and behind kitten paywall) I have zero tolerance to PvP trying to ruin it again. It might be a slight decrease in tanking now but people still won’t be happy and come January it will be their Alacrity and Quickness ability then a hot fix to their boon sharing and then in April it will be cooldown on wells and Time Marches On.

I feel the same for all classes.

If they refuse to split skills then no, they have to go with the side that has the majority of players not the nearly dead mode full of people wanting to strip away all fun and complexity from all modes out of spite.

Glenstorm.4059:

The people defending the pre-nerf bunker Chrono are either genuinely or willfully ignorant. It’s not like bunker Chrono has been nerfed to the ground.

Trying to explain that to them is like pulling teeth. Still a very strong build. Will likely still be used even at the pro level.

I agree with tempest as well. It doesn’t need a hammer to the head. Shaving is a good way to put it.

Levetty.1279:

nearlight.3064:

You also seem upset that mesmer was slightly nerfed at tanking in PvE, based on your other posts in the mesmer forums. Well I’m sorry about that, but PvE is not competitive, and if anet refuses to split skill balance, PvP should take precendence, as real money is on the line in tournamnets. Do you think its fair that all these scrub teams would get a huge advantage over the better teams like the abjured for running bunker mes back when they didn’t? Do you think its healthy to have tournament games decided by whoever gets the first cap? I mean if that continued with tempests as the super bunker, you might have an argument, but since tempest is much easier to kill in a teamfight, I doubt that this will be the case.

I’ve had 3 years of Mesmer being at the bottom of the PvE pole and still recieve nerfs due to PvP whines. Now that Mesmer is acutally fun and useful in PvE (and behind kitten paywall) I have zero tolerance to PvP trying to ruin it again. It might be a slight decrease in tanking now but people still won’t be happy and come January it will be their Alacrity and Quickness ability then a hot fix to their boon sharing and then in April it will be cooldown on wells and Time Marches On.

I feel the same for all classes.

If they refuse to split skills then no, they have to go with the side that has the majority of players not the nearly dead mode full of people wanting to strip away all fun and complexity from all modes out of spite.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

You’re being irrational here. Bunker Chrono needed this “nerf” (technically a buff in PvE builds).

Levetty.1279:

nearlight.3064:

You also seem upset that mesmer was slightly nerfed at tanking in PvE, based on your other posts in the mesmer forums. Well I’m sorry about that, but PvE is not competitive, and if anet refuses to split skill balance, PvP should take precendence, as real money is on the line in tournamnets. Do you think its fair that all these scrub teams would get a huge advantage over the better teams like the abjured for running bunker mes back when they didn’t? Do you think its healthy to have tournament games decided by whoever gets the first cap? I mean if that continued with tempests as the super bunker, you might have an argument, but since tempest is much easier to kill in a teamfight, I doubt that this will be the case.

I’ve had 3 years of Mesmer being at the bottom of the PvE pole and still recieve nerfs due to PvP whines. Now that Mesmer is acutally fun and useful in PvE (and behind kitten paywall) I have zero tolerance to PvP trying to ruin it again. It might be a slight decrease in tanking now but people still won’t be happy and come January it will be their Alacrity and Quickness ability then a hot fix to their boon sharing and then in April it will be cooldown on wells and Time Marches On.

I feel the same for all classes.

If they refuse to split skills then no, they have to go with the side that has the majority of players not the nearly dead mode full of people wanting to strip away all fun and complexity from all modes out of spite.

Utilitarianism is no way to balance a game. You need to look at the relative value of each game mode, the number of people involved is irrelevant if its value is small. PvP has more value for the game than PvE because:

1. It has a lot of money tied up in its a prize pool.

2. Proleague is the marketing division’s biggest way to try and market the game to new players.

3. PvP has been confirmed as the fastest growing sector of the game and the way by which most new players are being attracted to the game. Why would we want to turn them away from horribly imbalanced gameplay?

So I think you’re out of ammunition for your arguments Levetty. I also seriously doubt that you ever really watched pro league matches or played game either as a bunker mesmer or against them. You’re arguing that you’re upset that mesmer can’t be king of the world because it had to be at the bottom, but two wrongs don’t make a right. Being the best class in the game doesn’t make up for being one of the worst for a while, all it does is just shift the legacy of imbalance somewhere else. You have to look at the bigger picture.

Also, I doubt these nerfs will have much, if any real impact on PvE. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you don’t have to stand in capture points in raids in anyway that precog would be needed to avoid major damage. And the loss in block duration isn’t a huge loss because it makes you pump out the shield phantasm faster.

Nearlight, I think that I remember when I said to be careful not to give too much goodies to Tempest like baseline stability on overload. You told me that you did not agree about that. I am taking that your opinion changed on the subject?

Alekt.5803:

Nearlight, I think that I remember when I said to be careful not to give too much goodies to Tempest like baseline stability on overload. You told me that you did not agree about that. I am taking that your opinion changed on the subject?

Was that about stability to overload? I’m pretty sure I was always in agreement about that. I think I was mostly concerned with people asking for overall tempest buffs so much because tempest was ridiculed in the betas and then it turned out to be fairly strong in the game, so further buffing would be a little controversial outside of key QoL things. I still think that stability on overload is fine, as are warhorn buffs, but I do think certain aspects of the class, namely diamond skin and infinite protection might be worth looking into.

give us more boon stripping so there is strategy involved, don’t overnerf the bunkers they have their place, but currently, the boon stripping is so weak and far between that the balance is off.

nearlight.3064:

Alekt.5803:

Nearlight, I think that I remember when I said to be careful not to give too much goodies to Tempest like baseline stability on overload. You told me that you did not agree about that. I am taking that your opinion changed on the subject?

Was that about stability to overload? I’m pretty sure I was always in agreement about that. I think I was mostly concerned with people asking for overall tempest buffs so much because tempest was ridiculed in the betas and then it turned out to be fairly strong in the game, so further buffing would be a little controversial outside of key QoL things. I still think that stability on overload is fine, as are warhorn buffs, but I do think certain aspects of the class, namely diamond skin and infinite protection might be worth looking into.

Okay. As for protection uptime. The protection of the Earth Overload should be the same for allies as it is for the elementalist: 1 second of protection pulse, 3 (or is it 4) seconds pulses when overload completed. This usually gives a 15 seconds of protection to the elementalist (minus Hardy conduit) compared to a 30 seconds on allies. This is where you could nerf.

To compensate, give 4 seconds of protection to Hardy Conduit up from 3.

Other than that, I don’t see how it would be okay to nerf Elemental Shielding without hitting the core spec. Reducing the protection duration just seems wrong here.

Snorcha.7586:

give us more boon stripping so there is strategy involved, don’t overnerf the bunkers they have their place, but currently, the boon stripping is so weak and far between that the balance is off.

Boon stripping is very, very weak. A shatter mesmer can strip boons every few seconds but any class relying on boons can just reapply them a second later. Unless we get a mechanic that punishs boon application, we will not get anywhere by getting more boon strip.
The other way would be to reduce the boon spam of certain classes, mainly ele, the worst offender.

Ppl like to play safe,that is why you see so many bunker builds and game mode requires bunker for win,it is also safer if playing pug games to play bunker
Pro teams contribute to this notion by also playing safe ,they play for big money prises so no wonder.
There are counters but no one is willing to take risk (shater mesmers counters bunker mes realy well and will win in reasonable time ,just an example)
Top take this risk you have to have cooridnated team,but then why would you when its safer …

Ele was op for long time but no1 ever mentioned DS since very few used it,problem is perma protection with -40% dmg reductionin range of 360 its -10% more

Anet keeps ignoring all logic and suggestions from players for a few more $$ and keeps creating unbalanced and flawor of the day builds.

Just go back and read some post in suggestion area and you will see how they can pervert good ideas .

Tempest needs some fixes, along with most other elite specs, but they are not nearly as broken as bunker mesmers were before the precog nerf, mainly because if you strip their protection and CC/burst them, they can be killed quickly. Unfortunately, revenant was designed in a way that completely counters burst builds, but if you’re brave enough, a thief or a shatter mesmer is a very good tool to have in your team to counter tempests.

I keep seeing that the 20% better Protection conferred by Hardy Conduit also affects allies, but I don’t know if it actually does since the Trait’s description is vague.

Has anyone actually tested to see if the improved Protection is given to allies as well, or to just the Tempest?

Because if it’s to just the Tempest, then it certainly is nowhere near OP.