Guild Wars 2

Hey,

So I’ve come up with a list of 5 action-items for Engineer to add build diversity and shift the status quo away from full-tank bunker Scrapper. The plan is to fulfil a bruiser/carry role in PvP, and not be imbalanced in other game modes. Main goals to achieve are to increase Melee up-time/pressure which is currently below par, especially now that Slick Shoes can’t apply pressure, and reintroduce weapons other than hammer.

Preface: (Known issue, Final Salvo bugfixed to correctly grant stability when using F-Gyro)

1.) Functionality changes to Gyros & Final Salvo.

Gyro Self-Destruct – Gyro Self Destruct Daze & Damage now occurs on the Scrapper’s location. This increases the responsiveness and accuracy of Gyro dazing.

Final Salvo – Field Effect is established on the Engineer’s location as he travels. Visual noise reduced! This allows the Scrapper to be mobile without being punished, and apply super speed to allies better.

2.) Improved Crippling ability to Elixir Gun.

Glob Shot – Projectile Speed increased 20%, projectile tracking added so projectiles won’t be walked away from.

These changes will allow the Engineer to catch fleeing opponents better.

3.) Shocking Speed never being used in any game mode – Instead of the current effects, When hit while under the effects of super speed: stuns nearby attacking foes with an electric shock (only once per 10 seconds for each attacker).

This trait could be utilized well by offensive non-hammer Scrappers to recover some slipperiness/counter pressure.

4.) Expert Examination never being used in any game mode – Stunning or dazing a foe causes damage in addition to it’s current effects. 400 base damage at level80, (1000 power), .40 power scaling.

Providing a damage option for offensive Scrappers not wanting to stack healing effects / Stability in the Master Tier

5.) Buffs to accuracy / power / cooldowns of various Pistol/Rifle/Shield skills. Goal is to have interchangeable weapon options outside Hammer.

Non-Hammer weapons are completely lacking in overall budget, even with recent pistol tweaks. Hammer leading in damage, utility, and defense really highlights this.

Fragmentation Shot and Poison Dart Volley should be at least a minor threat if unchecked, when used by a full carry/might stacked bruiser build. Recommended highly increased power scaling, increased the bleed/poison stacks from 1-2 per hit

Glue Shot should actually restrict enemies. Immobilize increased from 1-2 seconds, and residual cripple from 1-3.

Rifle’s Net Shot and Jump Shot should complete faster and more accurately. Jump Shot and Blunderbuss top end damage is behind, considering there is no point other than to nuke. Recommend projectile tracking to net shot, and jump shot cast time reduced 1-.75 cast time. Increased scaling for Blunderbuss and Jump Shot.

Shield should be the premier defensive weapon, yet it’s the farthest behind. Recommended: Halving the cooldowns of Shield 4 & 5, and making the over-shield trait apply protection when the shield goes on cooldown (not during) would even be a reasonable suggestion.

Thanks for reading,

Support making Engineer not-lame non-bunkers again.

At this point I think it is a fair assumption that Engineer =/= Scrapper. Treating them as synonymous is the root of the problem that resulted in Healing Turret being “adjusted” as a measure to bring Scrapper’s sustain in line (somehow?). Meanwhile, none of the other healing options have even been hinted at being brought into line as more reliable healing alternatives; disturbing, considering the very noticeable lack of condition removal or extreme conditional factors imposed. If I am to believe that you would implore for Engineer to be brought up to pace, then I am all for having the core mechanics being revisited; 2 utterly useless utility lines is appalling and MUST BE CORRECTED. But at this point in time, I feel that Scrapper needs to receive less attention than our core profession, which would allow us to escape from 2 nearly mandatory trait lines that only serve as complimentary aspects of our powerhouse alter-ego.

4FS, we either need turrets/gadgets removed entirely or given a complete overhaul. If the mods ever read our side of the forum, they would see some of the reasonable ideas we have tried to propose over the years… YEARS! As you suggested. A positive adjustment to our standard weapons would be the first step in this VERY lengthy and LONG OVERDUE process.

Yeh, many rework ideas proposed to universally garbo utilities. However, having fun now with available options would be cool

Herein lies the heart of the issue you detailed. We witness an omnipresent quantity of “available” options, but are severely lacking in the department of viable ones. That is not to say that everyone else is not in the same position, but rather the core professions as a whole have a lot of catching up to do before we see any more balancing concerning the HoT counterparts. However, having “fun” with what we currently have appears to be a novelty only experienced between PvP seasons and the occasional hotjoin that doesn’t instantly succumb to the Mad Hatter’s game of musical chairs.

Let it be known, that generally speaking, I am inclined to your position as to increasing the appeal of those options that we could consider “available” to us right now, but would choose to ignore instead because of their deplorable state. I would like to state directly to the mods/devs/gods or whoever the kitten reads this that this DOES NOT mean reducing the functionality of what is currently popular to the level of everything else currently avoided. As that IS NOT conducive of how reworking the overall performance of professions should be approached. More options vs more mandatories.

Available options, ie, not perma trash Gadgets, or Warrior Phys skills, Spirit weapons, y’know

The options that are one or two tweaks from being fun, usable options, once were fun and usable. Usually not ones that need full overhauls and have always been useless.

Power nades, condi, pistols, rifle, DPS Scrapper even, that’s fun.

I remember before the patch I’d always stalemate scrappers with my tempest only winning very occasionally while my revenant and druid needed precise timing to finish them off after their invulnerable superspeed phase before the big heal so beating them was satisfying. However, if you miss that precise window you’re at a disadvantage since you’d need to blow some cooldowns to reach that point. On druid it was especially tough since longbow against a projectile hate class on top of a nine second weapon swap window made scrapper duels hella precise. The onus of precision is on the druid, the scrapper has a few reflects and lots of sustain. The druid also has lots of sustain and nice dazes and AoE slow, but the longbow single target damage seems to be missing. At best you could bait out reflects with autoattacks or rapid fire against a better scrapper so the bristleback skill can be activated with much less risk after baiting the reflect and stowing weapon. The problem with such a matchup however is if you’re dueling on that node you’re taking yourself out of the game, and since it’s usually far the +1 will likely be his.

I have run into so few scrappers lately so this feel for timing I’ve developed for fighting them might atrophy :( By the time scrapper become meta again the proc duration would likely be different obsoleting it however.

Agemnon.4608:

I remember before the patch I’d always stalemate scrappers with my tempest only winning very occasionally while my revenant and druid needed precise timing to finish them off after their invulnerable superspeed phase before the big heal so beating them was satisfying. However, if you miss that precise window you’re at a disadvantage since you’d need to blow some cooldowns to reach that point. On druid it was especially tough since longbow against a projectile hate class on top of a nine second weapon swap window made scrapper duels hella precise. The onus of precision is on the druid, the scrapper has a few reflects and lots of sustain. The druid also has lots of sustain and nice dazes and AoE slow, but the longbow single target damage seems to be missing. At best you could bait out reflects with autoattacks or rapid fire against a better scrapper so the bristleback skill can be activated with much less risk after baiting the reflect and stowing weapon. The problem with such a matchup however is if you’re dueling on that node you’re taking yourself out of the game, and since it’s usually far the +1 will likely be his.

I have run into so few scrappers lately so this feel for timing I’ve developed for fighting them might atrophy By the time scrapper become meta again the proc duration would likely be different obsoleting it however.

Yeah, it’s an interesting matchup. Ideally higher stakes for both parties in the future

Mnemesis.8257:

At this point I think it is a fair assumption that Engineer =/= Scrapper. Treating them as synonymous is the root of the problem that resulted in Healing Turret being “adjusted” as a measure to bring Scrapper’s sustain in line (somehow?). Meanwhile, none of the other healing options have even been hinted at being brought into line as more reliable healing alternatives; disturbing, considering the very noticeable lack of condition removal or extreme conditional factors imposed.

Also, Elixir C is noticeably awesome now that the CD of the toss is 16s with HgH.

Medic Gyro and Elixir C combination is highly effective.

Many utility slots are dedicated for basic survival, Engineer needs to have strong base weapons now to be competitive.

Chaith.8256:

Also, Elixir C is noticeably awesome now that the CD of the toss is 16s with HgH.

Medic Gyro and Elixir C combination is highly effective.

Many utility slots are dedicated for basic survival, Engineer needs to have strong base weapons now to be competitive.

Judging by the blatantly myopic changes recently, when considering the current mainstream builds both present and likely to be near future, it becomes evident that we are going to be left behind. The very fact that we are forced into supplementing utilities in order to overcome poor healing options is tantamount of poor balance, especially when this is considering that our current weapon options are stale and underwhelming. I maintain my opinion on the matter, which was described in great detail during the so-called “initiative” to reach out to the community; with only 1/2 of (viable) utilities to draw upon =/= a “good place” for us, as it was shamelessly proclaimed.

I am not here to refute your claims. As it is indeed possible to find ways around many of our current faults, but as you boldly revealed in your opening statement this is counterproductive to our infamous role as a traditional bruiser, severely gimping our damage potential and pushing us further into the realm of tanks. Something weapons alone are unlikely to fix, but will serve as a platform for more advanced corrections.

Chaith.8256:

Main goals to achieve are to increase Melee up-time/pressure which is currently below par

I am just attempting to shine some light on the farther spectrum of this issue you illustrated. Rather than a melee centric balance, we need to pressure the devs into conceding IT IS NO LONGER OK TO PICK THE “LOW HANGING FRUIT”. The majority of the harvest has been left to rot for nearly 4 years now. This is unacceptable, unprofessional and a blatant slap to the face to every player that purchased this game. There comes a time when you have to accept that you kittened up and begin SERIOUS attempts to correct the problems that are abound; the product of pure negligence on their end. It is one thing to make simple corrections via time constraints, but another to entirely abandon mechanics through lack of imagination or willpower.

@Mnemesis,

It’s not the purpose of this thread to dwell on developer negligence, lacking philosophies, or abandoning imagination.

The purpose is for diversity updates to all classes, please. It’s impossible to balance core and elite specs, if we could horizontally expand the compatible play styles with elite specs, that’d be hella awesome, and worth doing as a priority now.

Chaith.8256:

The purpose is for diversity updates to all classes, please.

I am all for the possibility of improving diversity. However, leaving this simply to a hail mary in regards to weapon QoL adjustments is a mere band-aid that has left many professions in these supposed “good place” assessments for too long. Having identical builds, save for a simple weapon replacement, is hardly what we could call a diverse play style. Scrapper AND Engineer are at the mercy of Alchemy due to the sheer amount of condition generation and random CC currently in use, something that has not changed since the massive trait overhaul. True diversity means that we need to look beyond the weapon availability and factor in trait/utility diversity, which is what will truly drive this pseudo Renaissance.

Chaith.8256:

It’s impossible to balance core and elite specs, if we could horizontally expand the compatible play styles with elite specs, that’d be hella awesome, and worth doing as a priority now.

If this is what you truly believe, then it is impossible and simply futile to even propose changes in the first place. The elite specs ARE TIED to their core counterparts. This is something that is not going to change any time soon. Voting to abandon positive adjustments to the core professions is (in essence) requesting no change.

I understand your position that a quick and easy change would go a long way to ease some of our immediate concerns on the matter, but it is also the same mentality that has gotten us into this position time and time again, from beta through today; thus my unusually bitter reluctance for it. I want more than anything in this game to see a period where each profession is not provided a suicide notice every time they try to jump out of those keystone traits/utilities. I concede that you are right on that account, as it is unlikely to (fully) come to fruition. Weapons ARE a good launching point, but one that I do not want to be seen as the cure-all by those concerned in the balancing department.

P.S
My apologies if you were looking for a simple “yes man” mentality. I realize that my opinions are often construed as combative and somewhat offensive, which is not the direction I intend to take. I simply prefer to observe things from a macroscopic vs microscopic view. [/hijack]

I very much disagree with the proposed egun changes. It’s the engineer’s best source of weakness and that is my favorite part about it. You sacrifice doing burst to prevent the burst of other players which gives it usefulness on every build, not only condition stacking builds.

I stopped playing scrapper ages ago because it got too boring to play in the first 2 weeks of having it so I’m not going to comment on any other proposed changes but I will leave this here:

What needs to happen to increase build diversity is to create a sacrifice based system, you get what you invest in. If you build for tank why should you do any damage? And if you build full damage why should you be able to tank 3 people at once? We need to get away from this system of allowing everyone to create their ideal ultimate build. Too many things are too close to unkillable with ridiculous amounts of damage, utility, group support, aoe, cc, etc. So what I’m proposing is overall reduction is base everything and increase the scaling it has so people who try to build for everything can do everything but only barely enough to get by.

Add onto that the need to remove passive cc from the game, trait overdependence, design flaws with especs, etc. Build diversity on engineer can’t exist just by tweaking stuff on the engineer, there are large game wide things that have to be addressed before focusing solely on individual classes.

The only problem is hammer, the weapon is way too strong compared to pistol and rifle, scrapper with hammer is already a counter to his core weapons

I wouldn’t say Hammer is the “only problem”, but it is indeed the leading contender in this issue. In order for additional weapon choices to become a realistic goal they not only have to be brought up to par, but their respective traits and trait lines need to become more appealing vs current bunkering options.

good stuff except tranq dart is fine as is. the weakness helps a ton. just increase the velocity of glob shot by 100% and make it actually bounce instead of being sidestepped or whatever like you said.
other wise 10/10 would bang.

Ranged auto-attack cripple doesn’t sound broken at all.

4 is also broken.

What about breaking down all the classes to their bare essentials (behind the scenes on a test server not necessarily in the live game) then starting from scratch all over again with elite specs in mind? I’m not familiar with engineer or scrapper apart from playing with and against other players so I can’t comment there specifically but each class should have something entirely unique to it or at the very least feel different on a mechanical level than other classes.

Like I mentioned elsewhere there are five players per team and since class stacking is allowed we use combination instead of permutation for the formula. In 1v1 a formula would look like this:

y(x) =x(x+1)/2 and let’s say that x =3 since it would be easy to validate 3 with a concrete example afterwards:

3(4)/2=6 potential matchups: Ryu vs Ken, Ryu vs Belrog, Ryu vs Ryu, Ken vs Ken, Belrog vs Belrog, Ken vs Belrog

But in a 5v5 game with countless class combinations we have:

If there are nine classes in 5v5 then the number of combinations is obviously much bigger. The formula could be read as follows since classes can be repeated combination formulas apply rather than permutation and put some factorial operations to work:
(9 nCr 5)² / 2 + (9 nCr 5) / 2 =
9C5=9!/(5!*(9-5)!)
362,880/(120*(9-5)!)
362,880/(120*4!)
362,880/120*24
362,880/2,880
=126

So 126²/2 + (126)/2= 8,001 potential matchups. I posted this over the weekend (but carelessly forgot to factorial the four leading to a grossly inflated number) in another thread but it’s relevant here too. With all those combinations it’s hard to balance just one class individually as it’ll have a big unintended impact on other matchups. Ideally, diminishing returns on a class should go past one, meaning two of any class should be a liability compared to five different classes in general. This would be easier to achieve if classes were simplified across the board and complexity built on top of that wouldn’t invalidate the initial goal and would be careful to avoid homogenization and power creep.

What if Einstein played tic-tac-toe with an average person? They’d continuously tie because Einstein’s genius would be redundant in solving the game’s problems. However, in chess Einstein would destroy the average person because his exceptional problem solving skills would benefit from the game’s strategic depth, but in chess rules are simple, it’s the relationship between those mechanics that adds complexity and genuine depth.

I guess what I’m trying to say is the game should just simplify where appropriate but increase the scope for meaningful decision making, risk, and make bad decisions less forgiving. This would mean skill plays a bigger role in outcomes.

Hammerguard.9834:

Ranged auto-attack cripple doesn’t sound broken at all.

That’s what we said about ranged auto attack boon corrupt, haha.

But really, it’s just an idea which even I’m not completely in love with. Glob Shot doing its job should be enough!

Whilst I dont disagree with your changes Chaith, I would say that they dont attack the real issue that is plaguing the engie. The real problem with the Engie is build diversity. It’s one thing for the Engie to have a build that works but if that’s the only build, people will get bored after a month and I don’t see your post addressing that issue.

Here are my solutions that I think could back yours up a bit;

Step 1: Fix the boring Explosives line

I stated this when they released the new trait system. The explosives line does very little for the engie. There’s only one build it works well for and that’s grenades. Other weapons CANNOT (and let me stress the CANNOT once more) take advantage of that line like the grenade can.
A few months later, no one is using the Explosives line, why? Because it does NOTHING interesting.

Here are my suggestions; Time for some mergers and acquisitions.

ADEPT TIER
Minor remains the same, Grenadier remains the same.
Merge Explosive Descent and Glass Cannon. – Do this in order to make Explosive descent feel like less of a useless trait in almost all game modes.

New Trait: Thermite powder
Explosions apply twice the vulnerability. You explode when downed, knocking targets back – This trait is an enabler to another trait that I concocted in the Grandmaster Tier.

MASTER TIER:
Modify Minor trait Steel-Packed Powder to include Thermobaric Detonation – Thermobaric Detonation on it’s own, is not a good trait that does anything for the engineer. It’s currently not even used for style points either. Moving it to being a minor trait in the Master tier just feels right.

Merge Aim-assisted rocket with Shaped charge, gives us space for another new trait.

Sticky Grenade Hitting targets in Melee range places a sticky charge on them that explodes after 1s. The explosion applies 5 stacks of vuln dazes them and is unblockable. ICD (10s). – I suggest this mainly to have something that rewards us for how we play on different ranges. This trait would also synergize with Grenadier and Thermite Powder.

Modify Short Fuse; Bombs Explode faster and have a faster cooldown. Big Ol’ Bomb now applies 10 stacks of vulnerability.

GRANDMASTER TIER Are you ready?

Minor trait Explosive Powder remains the same.

Siege Rounds remains the same.

Replace Shrapnel with Forceful Explosives: Blast Finishers knockdown and apply 3 stacks of bleed, 3 stacks of vuln and cripples foes in the area of it’s activation. Blast Finishers also strip 2 boons on 30s cooldown. (Reasoning: With the rise of the Warrior and even the Necro, I’ve come to find that one of the things lacking in the engineer’s kit is boon stripping. Giving them the potential to strip boons can be crucial for them to stay in the meta without getting schooled.)

Move Thermobaric Detonation to Minor trait master tier, merged with Steel-Packed Powder as said earlier. This gives us space for a new trait.

Concussive Blast;
Hitting a foe that has vuln above the threshold [15 stacks] with an explosive applies 5 stacks of Bleeding, 5 stacks of confusion, weakness for 5s. [ICD 10s] Foes that block your explosives when they have 15 stacks of vuln are dazed for 1s. (Reasoning: I felt that there was no incentive to use skills like the Bomb Kit and some other obscure utilities and traits. Since this trait synergizes with my suggested trait in the Master Tier, sticky grenade, it allows for almost any build to use this trait as long as it can reach 15 stacks of vuln).

I think the suggestions above would do wonders for the Engie’s build viability. If you imagine them on the trait table right now, you can see how synergistic the traits are with current traits and utilies. For example; Flamethrower gets a knockdown with Forceful explosives. I’m not sure about meta viability but making changes like this to any class, puts it into the meta. Especially if those changes allow for a cool combination.

Dirame.8521:

Whilst I dont disagree with your changes Chaith, I would say that they dont attack the real issue that is plaguing the engie. The real problem with the Engie is build diversity. It’s one thing for the Engie to have a build that works but if that’s the only build, people will get bored after a month and I don’t see your post addressing that issue.

Here are my solutions that I think could back yours up a bit;

Step 1: Fix the boring Explosives line

I stated this when they released the new trait system. The explosives line does very little for the engie. There’s only one build it works well for and that’s grenades. Other weapons CANNOT (and let me stress the CANNOT once more) take advantage of that line like the grenade can.
A few months later, no one is using the Explosives line, why? Because it does NOTHING interesting.

Here are my suggestions; Time for some mergers and acquisitions.

ADEPT TIER
Minor remains the same, Grenadier remains the same.
Merge Explosive Descent and Glass Cannon. – Do this in order to make Explosive descent feel like less of a useless trait in almost all game modes.

New Trait: Thermite powder
Explosions apply twice the vulnerability. You explode when downed, knocking targets back – This trait is an enabler to another trait that I concocted in the Grandmaster Tier.

MASTER TIER:
Modify Minor trait Steel-Packed Powder to include Thermobaric Detonation – Thermobaric Detonation on it’s own, is not a good trait that does anything for the engineer. It’s currently not even used for style points either. Moving it to being a minor trait in the Master tier just feels right.

Merge Aim-assisted rocket with Shaped charge, gives us space for another new trait.

Sticky Grenade Hitting targets in Melee range places a sticky charge on them that explodes after 1s. The explosion applies 5 stacks of vuln dazes them and is unblockable. ICD (10s). – I suggest this mainly to have something that rewards us for how we play on different ranges. This trait would also synergize with Grenadier and Thermite Powder.

Modify Short Fuse; Bombs Explode faster and have a faster cooldown. Big Ol’ Bomb now applies 10 stacks of vulnerability.

GRANDMASTER TIER Are you ready?

Minor trait Explosive Powder remains the same.

Siege Rounds remains the same.

Replace Shrapnel with Forceful Explosives: Blast Finishers knockdown and apply 3 stacks of bleed, 3 stacks of vuln and cripples foes in the area of it’s activation. Blast Finishers also strip 2 boons on 30s cooldown. (Reasoning: With the rise of the Warrior and even the Necro, I’ve come to find that one of the things lacking in the engineer’s kit is boon stripping. Giving them the potential to strip boons can be crucial for them to stay in the meta without getting schooled.)

Move Thermobaric Detonation to Minor trait master tier, merged with Steel-Packed Powder as said earlier. This gives us space for a new trait.

Concussive Blast;
Hitting a foe that has vuln above the threshold [15 stacks] with an explosive applies 5 stacks of Bleeding, 5 stacks of confusion, weakness for 5s. [ICD 10s] Foes that block your explosives when they have 15 stacks of vuln are dazed for 1s. (Reasoning: I felt that there was no incentive to use skills like the Bomb Kit and some other obscure utilities and traits. Since this trait synergizes with my suggested trait in the Master Tier, sticky grenade, it allows for almost any build to use this trait as long as it can reach 15 stacks of vuln).

I think the suggestions above would do wonders for the Engie’s build viability. If you imagine them on the trait table right now, you can see how synergistic the traits are with current traits and utilies. For example; Flamethrower gets a knockdown with Forceful explosives. I’m not sure about meta viability but making changes like this to any class, puts it into the meta. Especially if those changes allow for a cool combination.

Agreed on all, it’s true, in conjunction with buffs to Pistols/Rifle, changes to Explosives and Firearms are necessary to allow another play style to be considered outside of triple defensive trait lines. I’ve done extensive testing, taking a huge mechanical handicap such as dropping hammer for Pistols/Rifle, you can’t overcome that huge handicap with Explosives/Firearms lacking Pistol/Rifle synergy.

Due to space in my post, I couldn’t really get into it.
Apart from Explosives, Firearms is in the same boat. Lacking impactful traits to synergize with using… Firearms.

Core engy builds are good, have great mobility, decent stealth and can dish out a lot of damage. You just need to know how to use the class properly.

infinitenoah.8296:

Core engy builds are good, have great mobility, decent stealth and can dish out a lot of damage. You just need to know how to use the class properly.

Core Engineer definitely not playable in a serious environment. Looking at the Engineer profession from a holistic point of view, right now the serious builds are pointing in a very clear direction.

I understand what you are trying to achieve but unless hammer gets nerfed (whether utility or dmg) severely there should be no buffs to engi. Some of your proposed changes will make scrapper even stronger and it is last thing that should happen, imo.

Engis suffer from same issue as every single class: elites are broken and overshadow core. Can’t really buff cores since it will be buff to elite anyway. Elites need nerfs, period.

Also, most cringe worthy line i read today:
“Main goals to achieve are to increase Melee up-time/pressure which is currently below par”

Cynz.9437:

I understand what you are trying to achieve but unless hammer gets nerfed (whether utility or dmg) severely there should be no buffs to engi. Some of your proposed changes will make scrapper even stronger and it is last thing that should happen, imo.

Engis suffer from same issue as every single class: elites are broken and overshadow core. Can’t really buff cores since it will be buff to elite anyway. Elites need nerfs, period.

Also, most cringe worthy line i read today:
“Main goals to achieve are to increase Melee up-time/pressure which is currently below par”

I respect your opinion, I however see things quite differently. Losing Slick Shoes completely on top of the nerfs to Sneak Gyro, Rapid Regen, Rocket Charge, Healing Turret has dropped Engineer out of the top 5 completely.

I predict 0 Engineers in the S2 Finals, as with 0 Warriors, and 0 Guardians.

Here’s this patch’s Tier list in descending order – my opinion as someone who actively researches and participates with my pro GW2 teammates in building an optimal Pro League comp. Currently, my preparing for the S2 finals and beyond is rolling Revenant

Mesmer, Revenant, Druid, Ele, Thief, Necro > Engi, Warrior, Guardian.

Basically the shortcoming of Scrapper in a competitive environment is that it’s attempting to be a bruiser, bringing good levels of raw damage, with far less support than Ele/Druid. That sounds great, but the problem is that it’s no longer able to contribute to getting kills in group fights without Slick Shoes. Hence why I suggested minorly increasing options to stay up on targets better to mitigate that!

But again, even with the ability to potentially even kill a meta build, Engineer would be a lot more fun if it was doing so with Pistols/Rifle/ Kits instead of Hammer. I think a lot of people feel this way as well. Cheers

Oh noes, engi is not top 5 because you said it? What about thieves and wars being trash for 2 seasons straight, where were you? Ohhhh rrright like every top player you skyped with devs and the result was horrendous meta for 2 seasons straight.

My point stands, any buff to core is buff to elite (heck, you even ask for gyro buff). Unless elites get nerfed any buffs would just lead to more powercreep. And engis are by far are not WORST class our there.
What does your experience and research matter? Every single player is biased. You ask to buff elite spec of you main class. Mindblown.

I know i am salty and i have every right to do so. I am sick and tired of having only counter to engis FOR YEARS (which is still the case): bring necro (which was bad pick and walking rallybot), zerg them or just avoid fighting them all together.

Chaith.8256:

Agreed on all, it’s true, in conjunction with buffs to Pistols/Rifle, changes to Explosives and Firearms are necessary to allow another play style to be considered outside of triple defensive trait lines. I’ve done extensive testing, taking a huge mechanical handicap such as dropping hammer for Pistols/Rifle, you can’t overcome that huge handicap with Explosives/Firearms lacking Pistol/Rifle synergy.

Due to space in my post, I couldn’t really get into it.
Apart from Explosives, Firearms is in the same boat. Lacking impactful traits to synergize with using… Firearms.

Glad you found nothing to disagree with. I put a lot of thought into that post.

And I agree with you about Firearms. My main issue with the Firearms line is High Caliber, No Scope and Modified Ammunition. I rarely, if ever, take those traits. Doesn’t matter if I’m using Hammer, Rifle or Pistol, those traits do little to nothing for me. Chemical Rounds, Pinpoint Distribution, Incendiary powder, Skilled Marksman and Heavy armour exploit, are the traits I spend more time with. I don’t mind if those traits get changed (all except Incendiary Powder, I need that, please don’t change it!) The other slots could be blank and it wouldn’t make a difference.

And here is my suggestion for fixing the Firearms line as well; let’s do what we’ve done for all the other classes, have each trait synergize with the next trait on the same level.
So the first line: Chemical Rounds – Pinpoint Distribution – Incendiary Powder would be the line built for Pistol/Conditions

Second Line: Heavy Armour Exploit – Skilled Marksman – Modified Ammunition but in order for the line to synergize. Skilled Marksman has to do more. Here’s a suggestion for there to be more synergy;

Skilled Marksman – Reduce Rifle/Harpoon damage by 10%. Rifle skills now apply additional conditions, attack faster and have lower cooldowns. Hip Shot applies Bleed, Net Shot applies 5 stacks of Vulnerability, Blunderbuss applies blind, Overcharged shot Applies 10 stacks of Vulnerability and Jump Shot no longer applies vuln but now applies Cripple and Bleeds.

Calculating each unique condition from the above trait using Modified ammunition (immob, vuln, bleed, blind and cripple) without counting the damage added by vuln, you pretty much get your 10% damage back, barring any condi removal from your target. I think it would be the perfect solution to making Rifle and Modified Ammunition an interesting choice. It doesn’t fix the problem with Rifle, which I’ll get to in a bit, but it definitely makes the rifle a great power weapon and potentially a good condi weapon because of the diversity of cover conditions.

Third Line: High Caliber – No Scope – Juggernaut

Juggernaut can remain the same, I don’t have any qualms with it but the other traits need to change because they do nothing for the viability of the engie. And they definitely don’t synergize with ANYTHING in this line, talk less of any other trait on the engie. So here’s how I think it should change;

Replace High Caliber with
Bullet Penetration (move this to master tier and bring No Scope to adept): Your flamethrower and projectile attacks become unblockable for 5s after they are first resisted (30s cooldown) (Reasoning: This is me trying to get to the core of the Rifle’s viability problem. In the meta now there is so much projectile reflect, deflect and blocks that it’s extremely difficult for the Engie to play anything other than Hammer. Creating a trait that targets that meta, gives the Engie a fighting chance.)

Replace No Scope with
Steady Marksman: Whilst you have stability, your attacks have 15% critical chance. (Reasoning: It synergizes well with the GM trait, Juggernaut and consequently, quite a few other builds on the engie. Also gives the engie more gearing options)

Cynz.9437:

Oh noes, engi is not top 5 because you said it? What about thieves and wars being trash for 2 seasons straight, where were you? Ohhhh rrright like every top player you skyped with devs and the result was horrendous meta for 2 seasons straight.

My point stands, any buff to core is buff to elite. Unless elites get nerfed any buffs would just lead to more powercreep. And engis are by far are not WORST class our there.

I know i am salty and i have every right to do so. I am sick and tired of having only following counters to engis FOR YEARS: bring necro (which was bad pick generally), zerg them or just avoid fighting them all together.

How about balance and fun builds instead of saltiness and poorly supported opinions?

Chaith.8256:

Cynz.9437:

Oh noes, engi is not top 5 because you said it? What about thieves and wars being trash for 2 seasons straight, where were you? Ohhhh rrright like every top player you skyped with devs and the result was horrendous meta for 2 seasons straight.

My point stands, any buff to core is buff to elite. Unless elites get nerfed any buffs would just lead to more powercreep. And engis are by far are not WORST class our there.

I know i am salty and i have every right to do so. I am sick and tired of having only following counters to engis FOR YEARS: bring necro (which was bad pick generally), zerg them or just avoid fighting them all together.

How about balance and fun builds instead of saltiness and poorly supported opinions?

Get elites nerfed then we can talk about fun builds. There will be no build varierity as long as elites are superior.

Also “cheap argument” – you claim that engis are worse than Mesmer, Revenant, Druid, Ele, Thief, Necro and are not top 5 anymore based on your personal opinion.

Cynz.9437:

Oh noes, engi is not top 5 because you said it? What about thieves and wars being trash for 2 seasons straight, where were you? Ohhhh rrright like every top player you skyped with devs and the result was horrendous meta for 2 seasons straight.

My point stands, any buff to core is buff to elite (heck, you even ask for gyro buff). Unless elites get nerfed any buffs would just lead to more powercreep. And engis are by far are not WORST class our there.
What does your experience and research matter? Every single player is biased. You ask to buff elite spec of you main class. Mindblown.

I know i am salty and i have every right to do so. I am sick and tired of having only counter to engis FOR YEARS (which is still the case): bring necro (which was bad pick and walking rallybot), zerg them or just avoid fighting them all together.

I’m pretty sure if Chaith was a Warrior player or Thief player, he’d give suggestions on how to fix them but as he is an Engie main, it’s hard to figure out the problem with the Warrior.
Warrior is one place where I’d disagree with Chaith. A Warrior can be in the meta, it’s just a matter of who is willing to make a team to support the power that I personally feel that it can bring.

Also Elites aren’t superior in all cases. The only cases where elites are unequivocally superior are Mesmer, Guardian and Thief. The rest is just if and or but.

I definitely don’t think Tranq Dart should cripple. The weakness is really good and Elixir F already has a cripple. The problem with Elixir F is that the projectile is really slow. Elixir F cast time should go down and the projectile speed should go up. Perma cripple is not fun, but neither is unreliable cripple.

It’s interesting to see top NA engi player asking for engi buffs. I’m 100% sure Zananan will still play engi on tournaments.

Chaith.8256:

Cynz.9437:

I understand what you are trying to achieve but unless hammer gets nerfed (whether utility or dmg) severely there should be no buffs to engi. Some of your proposed changes will make scrapper even stronger and it is last thing that should happen, imo.

Engis suffer from same issue as every single class: elites are broken and overshadow core. Can’t really buff cores since it will be buff to elite anyway. Elites need nerfs, period.

Also, most cringe worthy line i read today:
“Main goals to achieve are to increase Melee up-time/pressure which is currently below par”

I respect your opinion, I however see things quite differently. Losing Slick Shoes completely on top of the nerfs to Sneak Gyro, Rapid Regen, Rocket Charge, Healing Turret has dropped Engineer out of the top 5 completely.

I predict 0 Engineers in the S2 Finals, as with 0 Warriors, and 0 Guardians.

Here’s this patch’s Tier list in descending order – my opinion as someone who actively researches and participates with my pro GW2 teammates in building an optimal Pro League comp. Currently, my preparing for the S2 finals and beyond is rolling Revenant

Mesmer, Revenant, Druid, Ele, Thief, Necro > Engi, Warrior, Guardian.

Basically the shortcoming of Scrapper in a competitive environment is that it’s attempting to be a bruiser, bringing good levels of raw damage, with far less support than Ele/Druid. That sounds great, but the problem is that it’s no longer able to contribute to getting kills in group fights without Slick Shoes. Hence why I suggested minorly increasing options to stay up on targets better to mitigate that!

But again, even with the ability to potentially even kill a meta build, Engineer would be a lot more fun if it was doing so with Pistols/Rifle/ Kits instead of Hammer. I think a lot of people feel this way as well. Cheers

just use blast gyro and final salvo instead of slick shoes. its the same bruiser with the same sustain, damage, and cc. the nerfs werent enough.

Noone cares about balance, they just want thier class to be the best.

Manimarco Devil.1790:

Noone cares about balance, they just want thier class to be the best.

If my class was as fun as playing Necros right now, I would be more inclined to agree. But when a class has 2 potentially viable builds and even they are not entirely great then you have a problem.

@Dirame, nice ideas, keep in mind other game modes that might go a bit crazy with 15% damage while stability is active.

In conjunction with your Skilled Marksman changes, the modified ammunition trait might actually be good, but I really wish Incendiary Powder would get weakened and put into a minor, and a real rifle trait would be added – can’t change modified ammo because that’s a hella huge trait in another game mode, and juggernaut so iconic.

Buffing Explosives/Firearms, core weapons, and the non-hammer traits in Scraper to enable a more diverse collection of Scrapper builds, those are good, and bulk of the changes suggested ITT. I’m not suggesting any power level increases to the already meh and boring Paladin Hammer Scrapper outside QOL like working Glob Shot and mobile super speed field.

Dirame.8521:

If my class was as fun as playing Necros right now, I would be more inclined to agree. But when a class has 2 potentially viable builds and even they are not entirely great then you have a problem.

1. fun is subjective
2. There are classes worse than engi and that have even less viable builds (2 is plenty in gw2). You only argue for engi changes.
3. The entire feedback is usually flawed because the benchmark for being “good” is measured against the most broken specs at the time and does not take into account other play modes.
4. If this thread gets anywhere its only going to be because a “pro” player is complaining about engi. It already should have been moved to engi forums

Like I said noone cares about balance, only their own class.

Manimarco Devil.1790:

Dirame.8521:

If my class was as fun as playing Necros right now, I would be more inclined to agree. But when a class has 2 potentially viable builds and even they are not entirely great then you have a problem.

1. fun is subjective
2. There are classes worse than engi and that have even less viable builds (2 is plenty in gw2). You only argue for engi changes.
3. The entire feedback is usually flawed because the benchmark for being “good” is measured against the most broken specs at the time and does not take into account other play modes.
4. If this thread gets anywhere its only going to be because a “pro” player is complaining about engi. It already should have been moved to engi forums

Like I said noone cares about balance, only their own class.

You talk like you know me. Have you read my post history? Have you seen me play in-game? I have EVERY SINGLE PROFESSION. And I’ve argued for changes for almost all of them. Just go look at my highest rated comments, you’ll see I’ve argued for changes to Necro (both buffs and nerfs. For instance I argued for a nerf to Corrupt Boon during the time it converted ALL boons on a target to conditions), I’ve argued for changes to Engie (both buffs and nerfs. For example I argued for a nerf to Automated Response when it was still crazy), I’ve argued for changes to Guardian and so on and so forth. The only class of which I can only talk about fighting against rather than playing, is Ele and even then I still give suggestions for that class.

So please, before you go on talking like you know me or Chaith, actually do your research and see if we actually are one-sided.

Haven’t you had enough power creep.

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

Easy there Chaith, you can’t sit there and write stuff like this and then make a thread titled “5 ways to make PVP engineer not lame again”, a thread on pvp specific changes, and expect to get special treatment. Sorry friend, hypocrisy doesn’t really fly too well with most people.

Countless

Trigr.6481:

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

Easy there Chaith, you can’t sit there and write stuff like this and then make a thread titled “5 ways to make PVP engineer not lame again”, a thread on pvp specific changes, and expect to get special treatment. Sorry friend, hypocrisy doesn’t really fly too well with most people.

Countless

Yeah I have no idea what you’re talking about, surely changes can be put into the game that sit well with all game modes but are designed to have an effect in a certain one.

I only just parroted what ArenaNet has said a bunch of times about skill splits, which is a completely different topic. Someone’s a salty little sausage.

Edit: actually lol’d because you thought I was suggesting skill splits between modes

Chaith.8256:

Trigr.6481:

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

Easy there Chaith, you can’t sit there and write stuff like this and then make a thread titled “5 ways to make PVP engineer not lame again”, a thread on pvp specific changes, and expect to get special treatment. Sorry friend, hypocrisy doesn’t really fly too well with most people.

Countless

Yeah I have no idea what you’re talking about, surely changes can be put into the game that sit well with all game modes but are designed to have an effect in a certain one.

I only just parroted what ArenaNet has said a bunch of times about skill splits, which is a completely different topic. Someone’s a salty little sausage.

It’s interesting how you deflect the point entirely. Allow me to recap. I made a thread with PvP specific changes, you reply saying that A-net is very adamant that skill splits are too much work. You then do the exact same thing with pvp specific changes thread. I call you out on it, I suppose I should have simply replied with “ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.” #MicDrop

However I will say that skill splits are not a different topic in this argument, in fact it’s the main reason for it. Otherwise you would have gotten the point earlier.

Regarding the following:
surely changes can be put into the game that sit well with all game modes but are designed to have an effect in a certain one.

Sit well with all game modes you say? Sorry but that’s a fairly tale world you’re living in when it comes to that particular point. If that statement were true, then we would have overall wonderful balance across the entire game. Sadly that isn’t the case either, because when they make balance changes they have to worry about more than 1 gametype when changing or adding new material, thus the problem. #BATGMI is the only answer, may take longer, but ill wait.

Countless

Edit: Actually no I didn’t think you were implying skill splits between modes. However you would get brownie points if you swapped over to the logical side of thinking by suggesting it.

Trigr.6481:

Chaith.8256:

Trigr.6481:

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

Easy there Chaith, you can’t sit there and write stuff like this and then make a thread titled “5 ways to make PVP engineer not lame again”, a thread on pvp specific changes, and expect to get special treatment. Sorry friend, hypocrisy doesn’t really fly too well with most people.

Countless

Yeah I have no idea what you’re talking about, surely changes can be put into the game that sit well with all game modes but are designed to have an effect in a certain one.

I only just parroted what ArenaNet has said a bunch of times about skill splits, which is a completely different topic. Someone’s a salty little sausage.

It’s interesting how you deflect the point entirely. Allow me to recap. I made a thread with PvP specific changes, you reply saying that A-net is very adamant that skill splits are too much work. You then do the exact same thing with pvp specific changes thread. I call you out on it, I suppose I should have simply replied with “ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.” #MicDrop

However I will say that skill splits are not a different topic in this argument, in fact it’s the main reason for it. Otherwise you would have gotten the point earlier.

Regarding the following:
surely changes can be put into the game that sit well with all game modes but are designed to have an effect in a certain one.

Sit well with all game modes you say? Sorry but that’s a fairly tale world you’re living in when it comes to that particular point. If that statement were true, then we would have overall wonderful balance. Sadly that isn’t the case either, because when they make balance changes they have to worry about more than 1 gametype when changing or adding new material, thus the problem. #BATGMI is the only answer, may take longer, but ill wait.

Countless

No countless, I did not do the same thing as you, I suggested general class changes that won’t mess up WvW or PvE, but labeled then PvP because it’s those builds that will be able to use the suggested traits.

What you do is harp on different balancing for each game mode, which is a really great idea, good job, but ArenaNet is openly un-receptive to ever doing that.

Private message me cause this is just derailing…

Changes that sit well with all game modes?
You mean, like they nerfed turrets to the floor and removed most of their traits? Or how gadgets are essentially useless right now?
Engineers in PvE are just about kits (as elixirs aren’t that good in a group setting, and buffing is better done by other people instead). Why do you think it ended up like that?
Let’s speak frankly, all they ever bothered to do was changing things so that they wouldn’t bother anyone in PvP, without any care for their performance in the other modes.
Why do you think there is such a lack of diversity right now? Core professions have seen any skill or trait deemed problematic being squashed into the floor, and left in the dust, for years. Instead of having proper reworks done. Of course, if you kill skills and traits one after the other, you end up with few nice things and a ton of mediocre choices. No wonder that elite specs end up being comparatively strong…they’re fresh, not yet broken choices in a sea of mediocrity. You can just get whatever good was left from the old things, some new things and you’re done.

Oh, and i’ll add it as well – without splitting the skills, there can’t be proper balance. The modes are just too different for that to work. The rest of the game isn’t about defending a small circle, and shouldn’t be balanced like that.

Manuhell.2759:

Changes that sit well with all game modes?
You mean, like they nerfed turrets to the floor and removed most of their traits? Or how gadgets are essentially useless right now?
Engineers in PvE are just about kits (as elixirs aren’t that good in a group setting, and buffing is better done by other people instead). Why do you think it ended up like that?
Let’s speak frankly, all they ever bothered to do was changing things so that they wouldn’t bother anyone in PvP, without any care for their performance in the other modes.
Why do you think there is such a lack of diversity right now? Core professions have seen any skill or trait deemed problematic being squashed into the floor, and left in the dust, for years. Instead of having proper reworks done. Of course, if you kill skills and traits one after the other, you end up with few nice things and a ton of mediocre choices. No wonder that elite specs end up being comparatively strong…they’re fresh, not yet broken choices in a sea of mediocrity. You can just get whatever good was left from the old things, some new things and you’re done.

The reason why Elite specs are comparatively strong is because, in some cases, the plug they holes that the base profession has (Mesmer, Necro, Ranger). And in cases where it doesn’t and just adds more of the same (Engie, Warrior, Ele), you see they either get what I would call a stacking benefit (incredible healing in the cases of Engie and Ele) or they continue to do badly against kiting (Warrior).

Manuhell.2759:

Oh, and i’ll add it as well – without splitting the skills, there can’t be proper balance. The modes are just too different for that to work. The rest of the game isn’t about defending a small circle, and shouldn’t be balanced like that.

I don’t believe they balance the game like that but they do take into account how certain changes will affect other game modes and take the route that won’t rock the boat too much.

Dirame.8521:

The reason why Elite specs are comparatively strong is because, in some cases, the plug they holes that the base profession has (Mesmer, Necro, Ranger). And in cases where it doesn’t and just adds more of the same (Engie, Warrior, Ele), you see they either get what I would call a stacking benefit (incredible healing in the cases of Engie and Ele) or they continue to do badly against kiting (Warrior).

I would say that giving engineers a main melee weapon does plug an hole, as we hadn’t got any so far. And given that the scrapper was supposed to be tanky by design, there shouldn’t be anything surprising if they end up being so. Sure, it may pose issues when you end up balancing everything over a mode where tanking a point, often alone, is such an important task…but if they have to end up making the whole tanking design of the spec meaningless due of it, maybe they just shouldn’t have designed the specialization like that to begin with.

I don’t believe they balance the game like that but they do take into account how certain changes will affect other game modes and take the route that won’t rock the boat too much.

Like when they nerfed the turrets to the floor, you mean? Well, of course it didn’t change much in the other modes – nobody used them before, and nobody used them thereafter.
Again, how do you think engineers ended up having kits build as the only good choice in the other modes?
Because the low performance outside of pvp just never mattered as far as “balance” goes. Gadgets, turrets, even elixirs have been useless outside of pvp for years. And somehow, that seems to be fine.

Before they changed trait-line in pre-hot patch, engi where really good for a lot of different playstyle and build with Rifle and Pistol.

They wrecked the synergy and survivability because they thought about scrapper to be the beast of survivability (melee weapon).

The easiest and lazy thing DEv can do to bring Engi at a place, not lame again is GOING back to our Original trait line that had great synergy with Rifle and Pistol.

No other core classes got redesign for their elite… only engi.

If they can’t do a REVERT of trait lines, they should upgrade all skills of rifles and pistols/pistols and shield. Because since the traits that where good with the weapons are not possible anymore (need too much trait line to do the same than before pre-patch), engi is simply BAD compare to Scrapper.

Nades and Bombs are the kits that got DELETED by the changes… but they where the kits that was making rifle and pistol the underdog of all gw2 weapons.

Since, those two kits are down to nothing…. the core weapon set of engi are jokes.

I dearly miss the Kit play style. It was definitely one of the most fun things I ever experienced in a game. Up until June 2015 I enjoyed every moment playing the Engineer profession. It’s a shame Kits got the Turret treatment.

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

I dearly miss the Kit play style. It was definitely one of the most fun things I ever experienced in a game. Up until June 2015 I enjoyed every moment playing the Engineer profession. It’s a shame Kits got the Turret treatment.

Don’t really think it’s fair to say Kits had the Turret treatment.. Turrets were smashed because they couldn’t be viable without being overpowered (zero effort A.I auto-attacks) they shouldn’t have made it to the 2012 release, whereas kits just got left in the dust.

Recent times necessitate a big reliance on the mainhand weapon for damage and survivability, we need utility slots to stack defense in order to survive.