Guild Wars 2

All in all a good start to balancing after the DPS creep.
But here is a handful of things that I suggest:

• Warrior needs some reimbursement in some category after the Rampage nerf. A good start would be being able to select Merciless Hammer with Burst Mastery again.
• Guardian needs more baseline vitality after the DPS creep.
• Engineer needs Incendiary Powder back in it’s old spot as well as a rework on turrets. The recent turret nerf + DPS creep = completely useless turrets “including supply crate”.
• Thief needs nothing aside from updated stealth mechanics “see bellow”.
• Ranger needs the GS #4 skill Counterattack and #5 skill Hilt Bash, to better synchronize range. Hilt Bash should have the same range as the Counterattack knockback.
• Elementalist needs a slight nerf to it’s DPS or a slight nerf to it’s baseline heal coefficients, maybe even both.
• Necromancer needs a rework to lifeforce gain after the DPS creep. The rate in which lifeforce gains during first combat engaged is no longer sufficient or adequate in any way.
• Mesmer needs a slight nerf to it’s DPS and for the mechanics of stealthing to be updated after the DPS creep “see bellow”.

About updated stealthing mechanics:
The biggest thing screwing the meta after the DPS creep is that team AoE stealthing has become very powerful after the DPS creep for a few reasons:

• Gorilla nuke striking out of stealth ~ Before 6/23/2015 it was very possible to recover from a stealth strike even from 2 stealthed players and maintain yourself in a 1v2 until help arrives but post 6/23/2015 you will usually die immediately, even on a bunker spec. I have done one conquest tourney and two 2v2 tourneys since 6/23/2015 and what I am seeing in the competitive scene is that more AoE stealthing = winning.
• Heightened difficulty cleaving or stomping enemies ~ Thieves, Mesmers, Eles all stealthing when downed, all teleporting or moving while downed in stealth and all reviving each other “with plenty of time to do so mind you” while in elongated stealths. These overly frequent team AoE stealths post 6/23/2015 are contributing heavily to why classes with downed state movement are even more ridiculous to kill than they ever were pre 6/23/2015. Again, the more stealth the better.
• Too much stomping power ~ Most of the CCs in the game that could stomp an enemy stomper require direct targeting to hit. When there are too many frequent team AoE stealths, stomping becomes easy to do so much to the point that these light classes are actually better stompers than heavy control characters with stability. Once again, more stealthing = by far easier kills.
• Plainly too much disengagement ~ When a team with no stealthers would get low on life, be easily targeted and die and have to go on respawn, stealthing classes simply disengage, heal and comeback. Reducing their time spent off point when they would otherwise be staggered. Before 6/23/2015 I felt the amount of stealthing was in a good place. Players needed to be wise with the usage of these stealths but now post 6/23/2015, stealthing is too frequent such to the point that players can actually be sloppy with it and still have stealth left over for the 10s disengage/return to a point with full health. Stealthing = winning

Let’s summarize this:
Post 6/23/2015, with the implementation of essentially 6/6/6 traiting and the overall DPS creep, stealthing has become too powerful of a mechanic in it’s current state. DPS striking from stealth has become a sure fire way to burst down a given player while allowing them little to no counter-play at all. This stealthing allows too much disengagement such to the point that when non-stealth classes would otherwise die on point, a stealth class just disengages, heals and comes back, never needing to go on respawn unless he gets greedy and stays too long in combat. This stealthing also allows a frequent & strong ability to secure stomps that non-stealthing classes cannot keep up with. This overly frequent stealthing also allows to much defensive stature for a team to hide when downed, move with downed movement skills and revive each other, all the while avoiding targeted CCs and cleave.

Suggestions:

• Decrease the durations of AoE team stealths
• Add a mechanic ~ If you are stealthed and then get downed, you are revealed.
• Add a mechanic ~ If you are stealthed and get hit (X) amount of times while in stealth, you are revealed. It could work like intensity stacks with stability. Let’s say SR gives 10 stacks of intensity, which allows you to get hit 10x before being revealed. Where as simply Heart Seeking through a BP Shot grants only 3 stacks of intensity, ect.. ect..

Stealthing needs more defined mechanics.
I would say that stealthing is exploitable in it’s current state post 6/23/2015.

- aoe stealth doesn’t last that long and is usually on long CD; how about we nerf all aoe support spells all together eh?
- revealed on downed state makes mesmer downed state skill, thief rez trait as well as their downed skill useless; why not delete them as well? why not delete all downed state skills? why not delete all rezzing skills while we are at it?
- classes that rely on stealth don’t have big/any access to to things like protection/invul/blocks and co. how about we nerfs those as well for all other classes eh?
intensity? how about we apply same mechanic to invuls/blocks/protection and co. as well? oh let’s completely forget the absurd amount of aoe in this game~
- oh lastly, let’s just delete entire SA traitline since it relies on stealth so much

stealth has huge downside in pvp: you can’t contest nor hold point while stealthed… but hey let’s forget about it~

protip: communication and just looking at map helps to predict where stealth classes will go next~

stealth is not the problem, damage and CC is~

penalize stealth for re-applying or stacking.

e.g. 5-2 combo thief or refuge+5+2+ blinding powder.. etc.

But it seems anet love so much the passive play so just stealth wait for your enemy hit them and if you didn’t kill them repeat and you’re good.

Elxdark.9702:

penalize stealth for re-applying or stacking.

e.g. 5-2 combo thief or refuge+5+2+ blinding powder.. etc.

But it seems anet love so much the passive play so just stealth wait for your enemy hit them and if you didn’t kill them repeat and you’re good.

those combos can be interrupted easily…. let’s penalize eles and guards for using heals; let’s penalize mesmers for using shatters; let’s penalize engis for using kits….

passive gameplay? really? stealth or attacks from stealth were never passive gameplay (besides LR that probably killed thief more often than saved them)
how can you even call it passive? to gain stealth you have to actively do something; to attack from stealth you have to actively do something… where is that passive?

passive gameplay is IP from engis or healing signet from wars…

Cynz.9437:

Elxdark.9702:

penalize stealth for re-applying or stacking.

e.g. 5-2 combo thief or refuge+5+2+ blinding powder.. etc.

But it seems anet love so much the passive play so just stealth wait for your enemy hit them and if you didn’t kill them repeat and you’re good.

those combos can be interrupted easily….
passive gameplay? really? stealth was never passive gameplay

passive gameplay is IP from engis or healing signet from wars…

Read again, I didn’t say stealth was passive play.

I did say stealth stacking is, you literally stack stealth until you know you can hit your enemy and get him but don’t worry if you didn’t kill him you can just re-apply stealth wait some secs take a coffe or smth and hit him again.

That’s what anet needs to remove , stealth is supposed to be a position mechanism, now it’s used as a “safe hit and run, try again doesn’t matter at all”.

I like your ideas about general class balance. The necro/engi stuff you suggest would be really helpful

Elxdark.9702:

Cynz.9437:

Elxdark.9702:

penalize stealth for re-applying or stacking.

e.g. 5-2 combo thief or refuge+5+2+ blinding powder.. etc.

But it seems anet love so much the passive play so just stealth wait for your enemy hit them and if you didn’t kill them repeat and you’re good.

those combos can be interrupted easily….
passive gameplay? really? stealth was never passive gameplay

passive gameplay is IP from engis or healing signet from wars…

Read again, I didn’t say stealth was passive play.

I did say stealth stacking is, you literally stack stealth until you know you can hit your enemy and get him but don’t worry if you didn’t kill him you can just re-apply stealth wait some secs take a coffe or smth and hit him again.

That’s what anet needs to remove , stealth is supposed to be a position mechanism, now it’s used as a “safe hit and run, try again doesn’t matter at all”.

How is stealth stacking a passive gameplay? You actively have to use resources to gain/maintain stealth; you also lose point while at it. Also, stealth doesn’t garantee you can hit the enemy. You might actually die while trying to get in position for burst.
Stealth =/= invincibility.
You can’t reapply stealth just easily, there is thing like revealed in this game or are you telling me you just sit here doing nothing and wait untill revealed runs out or don’t bother interrupting any spells that grant stealth?

How can you even say doesn’t matter? Did you even try to play a class that relies on stealth vs any decent team? Please go make a thief and play vs decent team w/o using stealth. Tell me how it went. I would LOOOOVVVVEEE video of that.

The devs have the opposite thought on Life Force Generation as you.
Unholy Martyr: Reduced life-force generation from 10% to 7% when transferring a condition.

Cynz.9437:

- aoe stealth doesn’t last that long and is usually on long CD; how about we nerf all aoe support spells all together eh?
- revealed on downed state makes mesmer downed state skill, thief rez trait as well as their downed skill useless; why not delete them as well? why not delete all downed state skills? why not delete all rezzing skills while we are at it?
- classes that rely on stealth don’t have big/any access to to things like protection/invul/blocks and co. how about we nerfs those as well for all other classes eh?
intensity? how about we apply same mechanic to invuls/blocks/protection and co. as well? oh let’s completely forget the absurd amount of aoe in this game~
- oh lastly, let’s just delete entire SA traitline since it relies on stealth so much

stealth has huge downside in pvp: you can’t contest nor hold point while stealthed… but hey let’s forget about it~

protip: communication and just looking at map helps to predict where stealth classes will go next~

stealth is not the problem, damage and CC is~

But then you realize mesmer has the best invuln/evade uptime in the game outside of oh look thieves, and kittens protection/regen/aegis out of their kitten in their stealth build.

@OP:

I can’t believe people are still whining about DPS or stealth. Truthfully, if you can’t survive as a bunker guard right now, it is you.

Stealth will always have those who can’t fight against it. It has been that way since the beginning of the game. That’s why these types of posts are always amusing.

There are only two things that need major adjustments. dd ele since the SUSTAIN is too high and Mesmer. The problem with Mesmer is not stealth. It is the damage output.

Linnael.1069:

Cynz.9437:

- aoe stealth doesn’t last that long and is usually on long CD; how about we nerf all aoe support spells all together eh?
- revealed on downed state makes mesmer downed state skill, thief rez trait as well as their downed skill useless; why not delete them as well? why not delete all downed state skills? why not delete all rezzing skills while we are at it?
- classes that rely on stealth don’t have big/any access to to things like protection/invul/blocks and co. how about we nerfs those as well for all other classes eh?
intensity? how about we apply same mechanic to invuls/blocks/protection and co. as well? oh let’s completely forget the absurd amount of aoe in this game~
- oh lastly, let’s just delete entire SA traitline since it relies on stealth so much

stealth has huge downside in pvp: you can’t contest nor hold point while stealthed… but hey let’s forget about it~

protip: communication and just looking at map helps to predict where stealth classes will go next~

stealth is not the problem, damage and CC is~

But then you realize mesmer has the best invuln/evade uptime in the game outside of oh look thieves, and kittens protection/regen/aegis out of their kitten in their stealth build.

That is mesmer issue, don’t have to shaft other classes (that are already not doing so great) because mesmers got overbuffed.

Cynz.9437:

Elxdark.9702:

Cynz.9437:

Elxdark.9702:

penalize stealth for re-applying or stacking.

e.g. 5-2 combo thief or refuge+5+2+ blinding powder.. etc.

But it seems anet love so much the passive play so just stealth wait for your enemy hit them and if you didn’t kill them repeat and you’re good.

those combos can be interrupted easily….
passive gameplay? really? stealth was never passive gameplay

passive gameplay is IP from engis or healing signet from wars…

Read again, I didn’t say stealth was passive play.

I did say stealth stacking is, you literally stack stealth until you know you can hit your enemy and get him but don’t worry if you didn’t kill him you can just re-apply stealth wait some secs take a coffe or smth and hit him again.

That’s what anet needs to remove , stealth is supposed to be a position mechanism, now it’s used as a “safe hit and run, try again doesn’t matter at all”.

How is stealth stacking a passive gameplay? You actively have to use resources to gain/maintain stealth; you also lose point while at it. Also, stealth doesn’t garantee you can hit the enemy. You might actually die while trying to get in position for burst.
Stealth =/= invincibility.
You can’t reapply stealth just easily, there is thing like revealed in this game or are you telling me you just sit here doing nothing and wait untill revealed runs out or don’t bother interrupting any spells that grant stealth?

How can you even say doesn’t matter? Did you even try to play a class that relies on stealth vs any decent team? Please go make a thief and play vs decent team w/o using stealth. Tell me how it went. I would LOOOOVVVVEEE video of that.

It seems you didn’t get my and OP’s point at all.

The main point is stealth is too rewarding and also too strong combined with the dps and sustain that we have atm.

Have you seen any lastest esl? or actually going in ranked and fight vs sa thieves pu mesmers?

What they do? stealth hit, repeat, got them? no problem vamp activated! stealth again hit, repeat, wow I’m still alive and he’s low again I’ll try cath him, wow he goes stealth again and he leaves, k my team needs me in mid im going! home gets decapped wow stealth is such a great mechanic.

K I’ll admit that wouldnt be passive play but lets be honest, in that rotation is there any skill involved? at all? nope, and combined this + high burst + good survavility + extremely good position is not fair.

I know what I’m saying, I play s/d thief even with the nerf and stuff, I can still eat shatter mesmers like there’s not tomorrow, but dp sa is kittened and pu mesmer is annoying.

zero skill involved just stealth hit, repeat.

Once again, it is dmg + CC issue, not stealth.
Secondly, just because mesmers got overbuffed doesn’t mean mechanic itself needs more nerfs.
I fought PU mes and SA thieves, i don’t see how it is any worse than what ele/wars/engis/wars can pull off, really.
I can list many things from other classes and just call them not fair. Shall i?

If you played thief, you would know stealth -> hit -> repeat doesn’t work. Oh wait, you probably just spam evades.

@ Cynz

I said if you are stealthed and then get downed, you are revealed. I did not say that stealth shouldn’t work when you are downed. One of the main problems is super elongated stealths that allow a player to get downed but then have enough time to stay stealthed while reviving or being revived, before the enemy even realizes that player was downed. This is a broken mechanic and it needs fixing, along with everything else that I mentioned. ^^

~ You should carefully read a post before commenting on it

Cynz.9437:

Once again, it is dmg + CC issue, not stealth.
Secondly, just because mesmers got overbuffed doesn’t mean mechanic itself needs more nerfs.
I fought PU mes and SA thieves, i don’t see how it is any worse than what ele/wars/engis/wars can pull off, really.
I can list many things from other classes and just call them not fair. Shall i?

If you played thief, you would know stealth -> hit -> repeat doesn’t work. Oh wait, you probably just spam evade.

I know you are afraid of another thief nerf, that’s why you’re being so biased so I’ll stop right now.

Did you test s/d now? I don’t think it’s just “spam evade”.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

@ Cynz

I said if you are stealthed and then get downed, you are revealed. I did not say that stealth shouldn’t work when you are downed. One of the main problems is super elongated stealths that allow a player to get downed but then have enough time to stay stealthed while reviving or being revived, before the enemy even realizes that player was downed. This is a broken mechanic and it needs fixing, along with everything else that I mentioned. ^^

~ You should carefully read a post before commenting on it

Oh let’s punish me for using refuge preemptively before i or my teammate go(es) down… great idea /facepalm
Once again, stealth =/= invincibilty. Use cleave or did you forget how to press buttons?

Oh protip: play with game sound. You can actually hear where person is trying to rez even if they are in stealth.

Elxdark.9702:

Cynz.9437:

Once again, it is dmg + CC issue, not stealth.
Secondly, just because mesmers got overbuffed doesn’t mean mechanic itself needs more nerfs.
I fought PU mes and SA thieves, i don’t see how it is any worse than what ele/wars/engis/wars can pull off, really.
I can list many things from other classes and just call them not fair. Shall i?

If you played thief, you would know stealth -> hit -> repeat doesn’t work. Oh wait, you probably just spam evade.

I know you are afraid of another thief nerf, that’s why you’re being so biased so I’ll stop right now.

Did you test s/d now? I don’t think it’s just “spam evade”.

No, i am just tired of moronic uneducated complains.
Thieves are already not threat to anyone (given same skill). Only thing they are good for is decap/+1. Glad, we can play only when we can rely on others to carry us. Great class eh? Let’s nerf the very little team support they have because of the overbuffed mesmers for the sake of mouse clickers~

Yes, i did test s/d after patch, i know it got nerfed and is not brainless like prepatch. Doesn’t change my point: you probably spammed evades prepatch and you claim stealth -> hit -> repeat is possible, but it is not. Revealed exists. Multiple way of stopping stealth exist; multiple ways of avoiding dmg from stealth exist; multiple way of punishing revealed enemy exist. USE THEM.

Dmg from stealth too high? Then look at dmg.

Cynz.9437:

Linnael.1069:

Cynz.9437:

- aoe stealth doesn’t last that long and is usually on long CD; how about we nerf all aoe support spells all together eh?
- revealed on downed state makes mesmer downed state skill, thief rez trait as well as their downed skill useless; why not delete them as well? why not delete all downed state skills? why not delete all rezzing skills while we are at it?
- classes that rely on stealth don’t have big/any access to to things like protection/invul/blocks and co. how about we nerfs those as well for all other classes eh?
intensity? how about we apply same mechanic to invuls/blocks/protection and co. as well? oh let’s completely forget the absurd amount of aoe in this game~
- oh lastly, let’s just delete entire SA traitline since it relies on stealth so much

stealth has huge downside in pvp: you can’t contest nor hold point while stealthed… but hey let’s forget about it~

protip: communication and just looking at map helps to predict where stealth classes will go next~

stealth is not the problem, damage and CC is~

But then you realize mesmer has the best invuln/evade uptime in the game outside of oh look thieves, and kittens protection/regen/aegis out of their kitten in their stealth build.

That is mesmer issue, don’t have to shaft other classes (that are already not doing so great) because mesmers got overbuffed.

I’m not saying anything at all about the suggestions in the thread. Anet’s proven they can’t handle stealth.

I’m just correcting where you wrong. The stealth dependent classes in the game are not the ones that lack active defense. Mesmer is particularly broken but thief really doesn’t lack in active defense either. The s/d evade4dayz build was meta for a long time and still strong.

Not gonna happen, they are no foolish to destroy their own greatest masterpiece called Thief(fine) including Engineer and Mesmer.

Though increased base vitality for guardian would be nice, what it really needs is a fix to the terrible PvP stat system.

Incendiary Powder should stay where it is and be re-worked to allow counter-play.

Lifeforce gain on necro is pretty balanced. If you want a lot of life force, you need to spec for it. Necro needs the DS damage reduction bug fixed.

People that never played or have properly understanding of thief mechanicand or builds variants post patch should never come and complain or crying for nerfs to said mechanic, since they cant figure what it requires and how to counter it on their own with any other class.
@Elxdark i`m really loling on ur “I know what I’m saying, I play s/d thief even with the nerf and stuff, I can still eat shatter mesmers like there’s not tomorrow” dude you must fight only really bad noob mesmers,now try to fight mesmers that know what they are actuallys doing and them come and enlight us when he 100-0 you.

Wait, they nerfed Rampage and didn’t do anything to burning damage or nerf Mesmer or Ele?

Yeah I don’t get it either: nothing has been done to burning damage which is insane.

Also, ele combo fields and finishers should be shaved somehow. Too many aoe might stacks, too many aoe heal.

For mesmers, the mantra nerf wasn’t chirurgical. Instead, they should rework Confounding Suggestions to not work if the daze come from a skill used while stealthed. Fix the bug that keep a mesmer stealthed a few seconds after s/he starts doing damage. Reduce PU to 66% instead of 100% increase.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

All in all a good start to balancing after the DPS creep.

About updated stealthing mechanics:
The biggest thing screwing the meta after the DPS creep is that team AoE stealthing has become very powerful after the DPS creep for a few reasons:

• Gorilla nuke striking out of stealth ~ Before 6/23/2015 it was very possible to recover from a stealth strike even from 2 stealthed players and maintain yourself in a 1v2 until help arrives but post 6/23/2015 you will usually die immediately, even on a bunker spec. I have done one conquest tourney and two 2v2 tourneys since 6/23/2015 and what I am seeing in the competitive scene is that more AoE stealthing = winning.
• Heightened difficulty cleaving or stomping enemies ~ Thieves, Mesmers, Eles all stealthing when downed, all teleporting or moving while downed in stealth and all reviving each other “with plenty of time to do so mind you” while in elongated stealths. These overly frequent team AoE stealths post 6/23/2015 are contributing heavily to why classes with downed state movement are even more ridiculous to kill than they ever were pre 6/23/2015. Again, the more stealth the better.
• Too much stomping power ~ Most of the CCs in the game that could stomp an enemy stomper require direct targeting to hit. When there are too many frequent team AoE stealths, stomping becomes easy to do so much to the point that these light classes are actually better stompers than heavy control characters with stability. Once again, more stealthing = by far easier kills.
• Plainly too much disengagement ~ When a team with no stealthers would get low on life, be easily targeted and die and have to go on respawn, stealthing classes simply disengage, heal and comeback. Reducing their time spent off point when they would otherwise be staggered. Before 6/23/2015 I felt the amount of stealthing was in a good place. Players needed to be wise with the usage of these stealths but now post 6/23/2015, stealthing is too frequent such to the point that players can actually be sloppy with it and still have stealth left over for the 10s disengage/return to a point with full health. Stealthing = winning

Let’s summarize this:
Post 6/23/2015, with the implementation of essentially 6/6/6 traiting and the overall DPS creep, stealthing has become too powerful of a mechanic in it’s current state. DPS striking from stealth has become a sure fire way to burst down a given player while allowing them little to no counter-play at all. This stealthing allows too much disengagement such to the point that when non-stealth classes would otherwise die on point, a stealth class just disengages, heals and comes back, never needing to go on respawn unless he gets greedy and stays too long in combat. This stealthing also allows a frequent & strong ability to secure stomps that non-stealthing classes cannot keep up with. This overly frequent stealthing also allows to much defensive stature for a team to hide when downed, move with downed movement skills and revive each other, all the while avoiding targeted CCs and cleave.

Suggestions:

• Decrease the durations of AoE team stealths
• Add a mechanic ~ If you are stealthed and then get downed, you are revealed.
• Add a mechanic ~ If you are stealthed and get hit (X) amount of times while in stealth, you are revealed. It could work like intensity stacks with stability. Let’s say SR gives 10 stacks of intensity, which allows you to get hit 10x before being revealed. Where as simply Heart Seeking through a BP Shot grants only 3 stacks of intensity, ect.. ect..

Stealthing needs more defined mechanics.
I would say that stealthing is exploitable in it’s current state post 6/23/2015.

Are you serious? Thief is already the worst class, having one weapon set that is actually reliable, and mesmers already do our job better than us. Please leave us alone, and delete the thread. Stealth is the last thing we have left that we can really rely on. We dont have anynother defense, stealth is our defense, we dont have much health either, we depend on stealth to keep ourselves alive.
Don’t use your hate of a class to ruin it for other people.
This is honestly one of the weirdest things I’ve heard about so called balance.

OP is a thief hater

Thief needs nothing

stopped reading there

I wholeheartedly disagree with everything you wrote in your OP.
If you had problems as a bunker guardian after the 6/23 patch, please uninstall and play tetris instead.

Guard has a wealth of blocks, invulns and blinds to help mitigate damage, especially on their high burst builds.

Warrior didn’t need rampage nerfing they should have only reduced the duration or increased the CD not both.

Elementalist needs an engy style rework, most elementalists would agree as we’re too pigeonholed into water/arcana.

Engy doesn’t need IP buffing. Turrets is a lazy and brain dead build it should be on par with MM necro as easy to pick up but outperformed after learning how the class works.

Mesmer has some of the worst DPS in the game if not the worst. What you mean is burst and that already got needed by mirror blade hitting only twice now.

Necro could do with starting matches with 20% life force. Life force gain is fine atm with decent builds.

Ranger, ok, but I don’t really see a problem tbh.

Thief wants to be more than a stealth trick pony. Make guarded initiative 80%, reduce some trick cool downs by 10s initially maybe more so it competes with bountiful theft.

As for stealth in general. Some bursts are easy to see and it’s a L2P issue. Others not so much. At the end of the day there just isn’t many ways to bring people out of stealth. Not saying there should be one for every class on a 10s cool down or anything however things like the dragon hunter trap is a great example of real counter play to stealth.

Add a few other things in like that (maybe ranger F2 applies AoE reveal 300 range on a trait) and you will see stealth become more balanced.

And off thieves would need adjusting to compensate a little.

serenke.4806:

I wholeheartedly disagree with everything you wrote in your OP.
If you had problems as a bunker guardian after the 6/23 patch, please uninstall and play tetris instead.

8/10

15 chars ftw

@ Timiok & assassin
~ I proposed nerfing AoE team stealthing. I said nothing about nerfing Thief in general.

@ serenke
~ When did I say anything about having problems as a bunker guardian post 6/23/2015? Nope, didn’t say that at all.

Come on people, read a thread before you post.

Stealth, really mainly Aoe Stealth, is a problem as long as groups build around isnta gibbing from it. Really thats the lamest mechanic in the history of pvp in MMORPGs and I’ve played close to all of them. If I could sit down with A-net pvp guys thats the first thing I would bring up was why they thinks thats a fun idea a group being invisbile for five seconds and then insta dropping any target they want. Sounds lame as hell to me but then I’m not some 20 something dev that barely plays there own game so they like stuff that sounds cool in theory but is totally unfun to be on receiving end of it in actual practice.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

@ Timiok & assassin
~ I proposed nerfing AoE team stealthing. I said nothing about nerfing Thief in general.

@ serenke
~ When did I say anything about having problems as a bunker guardian post 6/23/2015? Nope, didn’t say that at all.

Come on people, read a thread before you post.

that is a lie
your suggestions affect thief the most lol and pretty heavily too

Linnael.1069:

Cynz.9437:

Linnael.1069:

Cynz.9437:

- aoe stealth doesn’t last that long and is usually on long CD; how about we nerf all aoe support spells all together eh?
- revealed on downed state makes mesmer downed state skill, thief rez trait as well as their downed skill useless; why not delete them as well? why not delete all downed state skills? why not delete all rezzing skills while we are at it?
- classes that rely on stealth don’t have big/any access to to things like protection/invul/blocks and co. how about we nerfs those as well for all other classes eh?
intensity? how about we apply same mechanic to invuls/blocks/protection and co. as well? oh let’s completely forget the absurd amount of aoe in this game~
- oh lastly, let’s just delete entire SA traitline since it relies on stealth so much

stealth has huge downside in pvp: you can’t contest nor hold point while stealthed… but hey let’s forget about it~

protip: communication and just looking at map helps to predict where stealth classes will go next~

stealth is not the problem, damage and CC is~

But then you realize mesmer has the best invuln/evade uptime in the game outside of oh look thieves, and kittens protection/regen/aegis out of their kitten in their stealth build.

That is mesmer issue, don’t have to shaft other classes (that are already not doing so great) because mesmers got overbuffed.

I’m not saying anything at all about the suggestions in the thread. Anet’s proven they can’t handle stealth.

I’m just correcting where you wrong. The stealth dependent classes in the game are not the ones that lack active defense. Mesmer is particularly broken but thief really doesn’t lack in active defense either. The s/d evade4dayz build was meta for a long time and still strong.

s/d is not even built around stealth and is hardly viable in current meta…..
what do you expect thieves that don’t run s/d do? delete their character because you think they got plenty of defense outside of stealth?

Until they separate damage from PVE and PVP, any damage nerfs to Mesmers need to drop off the planet, thanks.

Buff S/d Theifs!

Yeah, quite obvious how OP feels about certain profession(s)…

Once ppl played a bit they know exactly how to Deal with stealth + stealthopeners…

And once you’ve played a lot
You’ll learn how to identify balance issues

I like the OP’s idea about adding “stacks” of stealth that you lose been hit. One of the best suggestions posted on this forums recently.

Necromancer needs changes in Condition & Scepter section.

All “meta” builds use MH Dagger. No other MH gives enough Life Force and damage. Almost all use OH Warhorn. Again, with so many projectile blocks, blinds, evades, chances of landing Deathly Swarm on actual target are low, cast times on rest of Offhands are too long for PvP instant-play.

If we want to stick to slow Condition application for Necro…well, it’s time to get Unstable Affliction-like effect, punishing for cleansing and, most importantly, AoE cleansing.

Mesmer has suffered a huge round of nerfs. the OP really is crying at this point. Stealth doesn’t stun break most of the time, nor does it protect from aoe.

In addition, long Mesmer stealth means giving up a lot of damage. This is a learn to play issue.

Mesmer was underpowered for years. As a result, the players that stayed needed to be good to survive at all. Now with some parity in power, the thieves and warriors are astounded that their free auto kill ( any Mesmer ) is gone. Mesmer was the first to be nerfed and has gotten multiple rounds of nerfs.

OP, you are really just crying at this point.

Mesmer was never under-powered. It was a “learn to play issue” pre 6/23/2015. You either knew how to be slippery to make it or work or you didn’t. Strong Mesmer players have always been powerful Peeler +1’ers and top 2 classes in 1v1 situations.
Now they’re grossly over-powered in all aspects of conquest.

Ithilwen, have you ever played other classes in conquest for a significant amount of time? Perhaps try playing other classes that are not Mesmers or D/D Cele Eles for a week or two? Then we’ll see if you can come back to this thread with that same point of view.

The statement that Mesmer was never underpowered goes against years of forum posts. I’m sorry, that assertion is just plain wrong. That’s pure sophism.

I own at least one 80 in every class and that’s after deleting several ’toons.

In truth I find D/D ele very difficult to play and exhausting. The work required to keep that lovely boon stack is real.

The ele should be rewarded for good game play if they can do it.

As to Mesmer being “grossly overpowered” I’ll return to you what you said to me about longbow rangers pre – patch; “Learn To Play.”

@ Ithilwen

apharma.3741:

Guard has a wealth of blocks, invulns and blinds to help mitigate damage, especially on their high burst builds.

Warrior didn’t need rampage nerfing they should have only reduced the duration or increased the CD not both.

Elementalist needs an engy style rework, most elementalists would agree as we’re too pigeonholed into water/arcana.

Engy doesn’t need IP buffing. Turrets is a lazy and brain dead build it should be on par with MM necro as easy to pick up but outperformed after learning how the class works.

Mesmer has some of the worst DPS in the game if not the worst. What you mean is burst and that already got needed by mirror blade hitting only twice now.

Necro could do with starting matches with 20% life force. Life force gain is fine atm with decent builds.

Ranger, ok, but I don’t really see a problem tbh.

Thief wants to be more than a stealth trick pony. Make guarded initiative 80%, reduce some trick cool downs by 10s initially maybe more so it competes with bountiful theft.

As for stealth in general. Some bursts are easy to see and it’s a L2P issue. Others not so much. At the end of the day there just isn’t many ways to bring people out of stealth. Not saying there should be one for every class on a 10s cool down or anything however things like the dragon hunter trap is a great example of real counter play to stealth.

Add a few other things in like that (maybe ranger F2 applies AoE reveal 300 range on a trait) and you will see stealth become more balanced.

And off thieves would need adjusting to compensate a little.

^This.

I’m convinced that many people won’t be happy with the state of mesmer until they’re nerfed back to what they were pre-patch(maybe a little further just for the hell of it) while still maintaining all the changes that came to their class.

Buff thief survi so thef wont need to be perma stealthed to not die from enemy, make ANY OTHER build than D/P viable then mby ur “stealth problem” will be fixed. Make “revealt” debuff work on endure pain signet of stone mistform and other “godmodes” so no1 will be able to spam godmode like mesmer does.

Just cap stealth so you can’t go beyond one blast’s worth of stealth.

Shadow Refuge should not provide stealth besides its primary pulse, if you exit it you lose stealth after 4 seconds, when Shadow Refuge ends you have 4 seconds remaining on stealth.

Apply same principle to PU mesmer, they can’t layer stealth. Applying Decoy as soon as mass invis is about to end or vice versa should not renew stealth.

Black Powder probably needs an initiative cost increase. It nullifies melee too easily.

The teleport stomps should also be fixed. A guardian who’s forced off a stomp has to interrupt his stomp cast and come back. A thief or mesmer shouldn’t get to port out while the stomp is channeling and port back in to finish the cast safely.

Mefiq.7039:

Buff thief survi so thef wont need to be perma stealthed to not die from enemy, make ANY OTHER build than D/P viable then mby ur “stealth problem” will be fixed. Make “revealt” debuff work on endure pain signet of stone mistform and other “godmodes” so no1 will be able to spam godmode like mesmer does.

God modes have 60+ sec cd’s, far longer than your thief defensive abilities. Mist Form can’t be used offensively, signet of stone sacrifices the passive toughness while on cd. What do you sacrifice when you go into stealth? You instead gain access to your highest damaging attack and immunity against skills that require a target, which are many for most classes.

Zenith.7301:

Just cap stealth so you can’t go beyond one blast’s worth of stealth.

Shadow Refuge should not provide stealth besides its primary pulse, if you exit it you lose stealth after 4 seconds, when Shadow Refuge ends you have 4 seconds remaining on stealth.

Apply same principle to PU mesmer, they can’t layer stealth. Applying Decoy as soon as mass invis is about to end or vice versa should not renew stealth.

Black Powder probably needs an initiative cost increase. It nullifies melee too easily.

So basically make Shadow Refuge a big “murder me” circle, neuter the main viable thief build, make stealth skipping in pve impossible/stealth based team coordination in PvP unusable, and cause a stealth/reveal interaction a thousand times more annoying than Last Refuge for thieves and mesmers alike. Oh, and nerf a skill that is already initiative intensive because not standing in a little red circle is too complicated.

Biggest issue I have is so many people like yourself call for these crippling nerfs, but really don’t offer much in the way of replacing it. Thieves in particular have an entire trait line devoted to stealth and it is one of their primary damage mitigators. What would you replace it with? Or should thief pretty much stay exactly as they are now, just without their main source of damage mitigation? Same thing for mesmers. Anet has stated before that mesmer’s main source of damage mitigation is damage prevention, IE, stealth, evades, invulns and in-combat mobility. You might as well ask to give warriors the lowest hp pool because a high hp encourages people to face tank things and not dodge, then not replace it with anything.

And I chuckled at the teleport stomp bit. You’re basically just listing qualities of the classes and asking for them to be flat out removed from the game.

Ithilwen.1529:

The statement that Mesmer was never underpowered goes against years of forum posts. I’m sorry, that assertion is just plain wrong. That’s pure sophism.

I own at least one 80 in every class and that’s after deleting several ’toons.

In truth I find D/D ele very difficult to play and exhausting. The work required to keep that lovely boon stack is real.

The ele should be rewarded for good game play if they can do it.

As to Mesmer being “grossly overpowered” I’ll return to you what you said to me about longbow rangers pre – patch; “Learn To Play.”

Mesmer was not underpowered. I’ve been a mes player for 3 years and I was just fine thank you very much.

bhagwad.4281:

Mesmer was not underpowered. I’ve been a mes player for 3 years and I was just fine thank you very much.

This is a matter of your opinion versus reality. Sorry, but reality wins. Mesmer wasn’t a part of the previous meta because every role it could fill was better filled by something else.

bhagwad.4281:

Ithilwen.1529:

The statement that Mesmer was never underpowered goes against years of forum posts. I’m sorry, that assertion is just plain wrong. That’s pure sophism.

I own at least one 80 in every class and that’s after deleting several ’toons.

In truth I find D/D ele very difficult to play and exhausting. The work required to keep that lovely boon stack is real.

The ele should be rewarded for good game play if they can do it.

As to Mesmer being “grossly overpowered” I’ll return to you what you said to me about longbow rangers pre – patch; “Learn To Play.”

Mesmer was not underpowered. I’ve been a mes player for 3 years and I was just fine thank you very much.

When the enemy team could run a single thief to effectively take your mesmer out of the game in 20 seconds, I think that’d qualify as underpowered. Many of the most well-known competitive mesmer players even admitted to this.

Necrotize.2974:

bhagwad.4281:

Ithilwen.1529:

The statement that Mesmer was never underpowered goes against years of forum posts. I’m sorry, that assertion is just plain wrong. That’s pure sophism.

I own at least one 80 in every class and that’s after deleting several ’toons.

In truth I find D/D ele very difficult to play and exhausting. The work required to keep that lovely boon stack is real.

The ele should be rewarded for good game play if they can do it.

As to Mesmer being “grossly overpowered” I’ll return to you what you said to me about longbow rangers pre – patch; “Learn To Play.”

Mesmer was not underpowered. I’ve been a mes player for 3 years and I was just fine thank you very much.

When the enemy team could run a single thief to effectively take your mesmer out of the game in 20 seconds, I think that’d qualify as underpowered. Many of the most well-known competitive mesmer players even admitted to this.

That’s because the standard mesmer was the power shatter glass cannon. Remember, the “meta” only takes into consideration organized premades. However, the reality is that only a tiny minority of games are 5-man pre-mades with comms. In such a makeup, members rely on other team mates to make up for their weaknesses.

The real PvP consists of teams made up of solo players. Once we accept that reality, a lot more builds open up and are extremely viable. And in that environment, there were plenty of nice mesmer builds that did quite well against thieves.