Guild Wars 2

So this is a link to a team comp that I worked on today as a challenge to people to fight the Meta.

I hate this meta. I really hate this meta. I know I have brought up how much I despise certain elements of the classes that are currently strong, but I think I have come up with a team composition that can challenge them, if not beat them, with classes that are considered weak right now.

I know many of you like Ele, Warrior and Mesmer but don’t really get to run them with success in this meta. I feel your pain. I want you to be able to dish that pain back to them b/c at the end of the day Burst is SO much more satisfying to win with than Conditions in my opinion.

It’s not an easy build, and certainly isn’t as forgiving as Condi builds. There aren’t easy rezes here, and very little spamming. Positioning, Speed, and Timing are really important. CC burst coordination is really important. Saving certain skills for situations is as well. You have to know your enemy, be able to handle 1v2 as a Thief with 1200 toughness, and your Guardian has to have brass balls. You’ve got to be comfortable with pressure and anxiety.

I think a group of players that are on the same page can execute this. I hope some good players read this and it turns on the light bulb in their brain.

If you want to try this, message me in game, or get a group of friends together to check it out. The google docs link is public so anybody can read it.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RREYzw6wjTVnXltv9IslcwA-fOG701FAOWqDNcI96U4/edit?usp=sharing

I actually run a build almost EXACTLY like the warrior build mentioned, with some subtle variations and a little more team support. You know my player ID now (it’s over there <——-), so send me a friend request and I’ll talk more when I get on.

I can only play the warrior or elementalist here, but I’ll see about finding some people interested in game, try and get them to roll with this. On first glance, I don’t see any major glaring weaknesses, apart from the elementalist. That one shouldn’t be a problem if he’s really never alone, though.

i dont think there is any point fighting this meta because people choose easy ways – reroll necro or spirit ranger. just take a break from the game untill they fix this. if they keep this meta up i personally just quit with this game. i am boored of this. i dont understand why they want to make tournament in this terrible meta, where braindead classes are viable.

I don’t care if ppl choose easy ways.

This strat is about destroying them, if you’re tired of the meta get some ppl together and try this out.

The Boz.2038:

I can only play the warrior or elementalist here, but I’ll see about finding some people interested in game, try and get them to roll with this. On first glance, I don’t see any major glaring weaknesses, apart from the elementalist. That one shouldn’t be a problem if he’s really never alone, though.

Ya the Ele, Mesmer, and Guard are your core mid point crew. Even if you’re caught out of position, you still can put protection on yourself in Earth, blink, and sprint as fast as you can toward your teammates.

With Ele I think if they can develop great timing with the CC they can really mess Necros and Rangers up.

Found a problem with your build, namely on the staff ele. AoE is limited to 5 targets (including spirits and other AI). That may not seem like a lot, but by depending on staff ele to dish out the spirits health away RNG may not be your friend and instead target the guardian, the tanky spirit of nature and etc, you know what I mean?

Ya, priority targeting depends on the situation, who’s there, etc.

Focusing the Guard is always great b/c that guy is so important to their team. You have so much mobility as a team that you can really do crazy stupid dmg in a lot more ways than just the examples I have.

Ex. on Khylo let’s say the Engi goes “guys I’m going far” and jumps off the ledge. The staff ele sees him, calls it out, the warrior starts heading over, uses Air 3, and puts Static Field down on him, and the Warrior comes over with his Hammer. That dude is dead on arrival lol.

I was just illustrating the effect that a staff ele can have on AI-dependent builds with their AoE. If both are on the point with the guard that does limit its effectiveness, since that’s 9 targets (!!!!!) but at least you’re putting pressure on them.

Added a Q&A to the document

This is much more productive than “QQ I hate Anet and the meta” x100 threads. This is ( or was in GW1 ) the normal route to take; the counter meta.

Thanks for the response Jonathan!

One of the things that made gw1 PvP so awesome was buildcrafting counter-metas. Give teams access to aoe condi cleanse by bringing non-meta classes such as mesmer or ele. Mesmer has really nice access to aoe condi cleanse with shatters but they have to invest 30 points into an otherwise useless tree for pvp. Ele’s have access to aoe condi cleanse but the range is so small you basically have to stand next to someone to remove condis, which puts you directly in the line of fire. Moving the shatter cleanse trait to a different tree or moving it down to master would make this move viable. With ele, increasing the aoe of cleansing wave or the water evasive arcana would be very effective as well.

Quick Mouse.7635:

One of the things that made gw1 PvP so awesome was buildcrafting counter-metas. Give teams access to aoe condi cleanse by bringing non-meta classes such as mesmer or ele. Mesmer has really nice access to aoe condi cleanse with shatters but they have to invest 30 points into an otherwise useless tree for pvp. Ele’s have access to aoe condi cleanse but the range is so small you basically have to stand next to someone to remove condis, which puts you directly in the line of fire. Moving the shatter cleanse trait to a different tree or moving it down to master would make this move viable. With ele, increasing the aoe of cleansing wave or the water evasive arcana would be very effective as well.

Another option would be tweaking restorative mantras (each mantra cast heals allies and cures conditions) it may be too much to some but it would go a long way in helping counters to the meta become more viable.

this is better than “balance/nerf” threads polluting the forums atm.

I told you earlier in Blu’s stream that I thought your comp was really bad. I suppose that was a bit harsh and I know you didn’t take it to heart since I only looked at the builds and didn’t read your text.

Reasons why this is atrocious: Staff elementalists have horrible defense. They don’t have blocks or lots of blinds or anything to keep themselves alive. They are horrid in 1v1 and 2v2 fights and can’t handle being trained by even 1 good dps player. In return they offer almost nothing offensively with slow and obvious attacks. They also don’t have the ability to revive players or control the downed game.

You mesmer is specced in a way that makes him useless in a 1v1 or 2v2 as well. It’s been said to death but shattered conditions is a bad trait that has no effect on 1v1/2v2 fights and only serves to kitten the mesmer by taking away his only chance at beating a necro/engie. By spiking him before the condi’s burn him out. What you have there is a build with far less damage and no real added survivability. You’re going so far out of your way to add a tiny bit more condition removal that you’re just gimping yourself. Removing your teams only revive skill in a team of 5 (most teams have many of these skills) for a tiny bit more condition removal in null field is just further proof of you not understanding that there is always a tradeoff in bringing more condi removal.

It was me in fact that posted the link Godofallu

its not i have tried this team setup when the meta changed and you will get destroyed by conditions anyways trust me …and my team is not bad

Shame the Ranger doesn’t have a power build option in this game. Would much rather play it than condi regen spec :/

Godofallu.2935:

I told you earlier in Blu’s stream that I thought your comp was really bad. I suppose that was a bit harsh and I know you didn’t take it to heart since I only looked at the builds and didn’t read your text.

Reasons why this is atrocious: Staff elementalists have horrible defense. They don’t have blocks or lots of blinds or anything to keep themselves alive. They are horrid in 1v1 and 2v2 fights and can’t handle being trained by even 1 good dps player. In return they offer almost nothing offensively with slow and obvious attacks. They also don’t have the ability to revive players or control the downed game.

You mesmer is specced in a way that makes him useless in a 1v1 or 2v2 as well. It’s been said to death but shattered conditions is a bad trait that has no effect on 1v1/2v2 fights and only serves to kitten the mesmer by taking away his only chance at beating a necro/engie. By spiking him before the condi’s burn him out. What you have there is a build with far less damage and no real added survivability. You’re going so far out of your way to add a tiny bit more condition removal that you’re just gimping yourself. Removing your teams only revive skill in a team of 5 (most teams have many of these skills) for a tiny bit more condition removal in null field is just further proof of you not understanding that there is always a tradeoff in bringing more condi removal.

Several things to respond to with this piece of literary art.

1) Until you try it don’t call it atrocious. Anybody can read something and call it bad

2) At what point is the staff ele being referred to as the 1v1 guy? They’re there to nuke and support not solo people. There is a lot in the text that the build doesn’t tell you.

3) You must not have read the part where boons are being stripped to set up Static Field. You appear to just be cherrypicking weaknesses of staff Eles without looking at the synergy the Mesmer provides with it. Team game.

4) Again, the Mesmer’s role is not specifically a duelist, although they have the ability to hold their own. They are nuking mid and helping home point with portal. I don’t see how 300 extra healing power, condi removal on heal, and having shatters remove condis on AoE is not increasing survivability. I have run this build. It doesn’t suck 1v1 at all if you’re good at Mesmer and anyone who gets in the Guardian’s face is going to be the best target for these shatters.

5) Distortion rezing is pretty powerful, even with a condi cleave, if you are timing your Null Field to remove the poison they are spamming. Mist Form rez is as well.

When you test the build I’ll take this opinion more seriously.

Positioning is mentioned over and over in the text, which supplements the builds. A staff ele can mitigate an enormous amount of damage to him if he positions himself right, as can a mesmer or any ranged class.

I’ve seen your build: Are you going to run up to 300 range and use Grenades on someone? Of course not! I also mention that if someone is comfortable with taking more risk that they can run Zerker Ammy on staff Ele for more damage.

Try it out – see how much damage you can do in an area with Fire 5, 2, and Air Auto attacking on a Spirit Ranger friend of yours. I know there are several dozen to choose from just your guild alone lol.

In the meantime, try to have a better attitude and know who you’re talking to before you say stuff like that.

Atherakhia.4086:

Shame the Ranger doesn’t have a power build option in this game. Would much rather play it than condi regen spec :/

You could try Axe/Warhorn and Longbow as the weapons and build however you feel benefits it. I’m not as much of a Ranger fan but I think Power did get a little bit better with LB stealth.

Godofallu.2935:

I told you earlier in Blu’s stream that I thought your comp was really bad. I suppose that was a bit harsh and I know you didn’t take it to heart since I only looked at the builds and didn’t read your text.

Reasons why this is atrocious: Staff elementalists have horrible defense. They don’t have blocks or lots of blinds or anything to keep themselves alive. They are horrid in 1v1 and 2v2 fights and can’t handle being trained by even 1 good dps player. In return they offer almost nothing offensively with slow and obvious attacks. They also don’t have the ability to revive players or control the downed game.

You mesmer is specced in a way that makes him useless in a 1v1 or 2v2 as well. It’s been said to death but shattered conditions is a bad trait that has no effect on 1v1/2v2 fights and only serves to kitten the mesmer by taking away his only chance at beating a necro/engie. By spiking him before the condi’s burn him out. What you have there is a build with far less damage and no real added survivability. You’re going so far out of your way to add a tiny bit more condition removal that you’re just gimping yourself. Removing your teams only revive skill in a team of 5 (most teams have many of these skills) for a tiny bit more condition removal in null field is just further proof of you not understanding that there is always a tradeoff in bringing more condi removal.

Yeah, God’s right here. staff eles are just… I mean, no. They really don’t do much. The only thing going for them is their Earth auto-attack, but I don’t think that’s enough to justify taking a staff ele over some much better options. Undoubtedly, I have seen good staff eles before, but I think that any build or weaponset can be made to look good by the best players. Ultimately, there just isn’t enough going for the build to justify its being used in a team comp most of the time.

I used to try to play a Shattered Illusions mesmer too. The issue is that you can easily allocate 10 or 20 points into a trait line without having to be dedicated to having your playstyle revolve around it; at 30 points, however, you have to give up so much that what you’re getting had better be really good. Shattered Illusions was just never good enough, ultimately, for me to justify continuing to take it. The whole trait line, in fact, is whack; it focuses on buffing your phantasms until the Grandmaster traits, when suddenly it becomes about shattering. If you want to go into shattering, you should go into Illusions; the all of the minors are, at the very least, useful, and you can use every major trait quite effectively as well. The condition damage and shatter recharge are also useful. If you’re really looking for condi removal, then Sigil of Nullification should be enough to fulfill your needs, and/or Null Field if really necessary. I pretty much always carry Null Sigil on my mes now, because it’s a really effective way to remove conditions with my 20 in Dueling and my zerker amulet.

Thanks for the shoutout!
The trait at Discipline is actually Signet Mastery, and Destruction of Empowered.
Also the Hammer sigil should be Paralyzation.

Of course players can make some several changes according to their habit!

Nice Post btw, it must took you a lot of time because it looks like a research paper…

If you’re trying to build 1v1 on every class, then you are not building a team you’re building a wannabe All-Star team.

Staff ele in this build has a specific role. They can protect your guard, rain AoE burst, and CCs very well in air. You can put weakness pretty effectively on the guard too, which hurts his dodging

These aren’t ironclad, you can’t change anything, builds. It’s a general idea to counter the meta of spamming cheesers with actual tactics, positioning, and skill.

How much pressure is there really going to be at mid if the Condi team can’t trust their Spirit Ranger, the supposedly unkillable 1v1 killing machine, against the Thief? The reinforce will either come or they’ll eat losing home all game, which will cost them immensely.

If this is executed well you’re creating all kinds of chaos to their team.

Now, if I really want to create a unique burst spec, this is what I’d take…

Boon Counter, Evasion Spec

Cruuk’s Far-Point Decap Build

Aiden’s Tankier S/D Build

God’s Engi (btw God, I was actually screwing around buildcrafting some engis today, and, feeling somewhat inspired by Teldo, I created a build individually that I just found out is almost exactly the same as yours though :o but your playstyle and the differences in the build I made and the one you made are probably fairly significant)

D/D Ele by Blinx

This setup isn’t necessarily good, but it certainly isn’t meta. It doesn’t run condis either (apart from God, anyways, but that’s not quite the same as a necro). The difference, however, is that you really don’t seem to understand the basic foundations of a team comp, but others of us do. In this comp, I left out a bunker, but it otherwise follows some very simple rules and strategies that you need to understand.

If you won’t listen to me when I tell you this entire comp is cringe worthy I don’t think there is anyone on this forums that you would believe.

I could make a post 3 pages long on all the poor build choices and the utter lack of revives and ability to split. I could talk about how you don’t have anything that can solo the guild lord which will make foefire harder. Frankly though you guys don’t want to have a conversation on strengths and weaknesses. You made this thread trying to get pats on the back and approval which you are very unlikely to get considering what you’re presenting.

PS: I can jump on spirit ranger and laugh at cruuk all day long while he just gets madder and madder at his inability to kill me. If you think his build can beat a great spirit ranger you have clearly never played against him with one or talked to him.

Anastasis.7258:

Thanks for the shoutout!
The trait at Discipline is actually Signet Mastery, and Destruction of Empowered.
Also the Hammer sigil should be Paralyzation.

Of course players can make some several changes according to their habit!

Nice Post btw, it must took you a lot of time because it looks like a research paper…

I just finished my final today, and it was a Computer Science class so I was kinda into it lol. Only took about an hour and a half actually. Some ppl pointed out some errors and my formatting sucked moving it to Google Docs so it showed for a minute lol.

Ya I’m not gonna post someone’s build and not give them a shoutout ;D

Great article, hope you guys do well. I think it would be interesting if you made a similar build setup of running a team comp that everyone expects, except you guys turn out to be burst rather than condi.

Godofallu.2935:

If you won’t listen to me when I tell you this entire comp is cringe worthy I don’t think there is anyone on this forums that you would believe.

I could make a post 3 pages long on all the poor build choices and the utter lack of revives and ability to split. I could talk about how you don’t have anything that can solo the guild lord which will make foefire harder. Frankly though you guys don’t want to have a conversation on strengths and weaknesses. You made this thread trying to get pats on the back and approval which you are very unlikely to get considering what you’re presenting.

Who are you? I mean is there a reason I’m supposed to take you seriously?

Please stop with this stuff or I’ll involve the moderators. This is supposed to be constructive and about suggestions, not some dude acting a fool.

Conditions need more soft counters so you can fight them by playing smartly as opposed to building against them.

Similarly for condition applier, they should require some positioning, or some play, besides mindlessly ground targeting everything in sight.

There’s just no reward either winning or losing these fights because there’s no skill involved. The system is doing most of the work, ticking the dots every seconds and players don’t have to play to win/lose. The spirit ranger and mesmer are worse because players behind them don’t even need to play since AIs are doing the heavy lifting. Meanwhile anyone going up against them has to hang on to their dear life.

Arganthium.5638:

Now, if I really want to create a unique burst spec, this is what I’d take…

Boon Counter, Evasion Spec

Cruuk’s Far-Point Decap Build

Aiden’s Tankier S/D Build

God’s Engi (btw God, I was actually screwing around buildcrafting some engis today, and, feeling somewhat inspired by Teldo, I created a build individually that I just found out is almost exactly the same as yours though :o but your playstyle and the differences in the build I made and the one you made are probably fairly significant)

D/D Ele by Blinx

This setup isn’t necessarily good, but it certainly isn’t meta. It doesn’t run condis either (apart from God, anyways, but that’s not quite the same as a necro). The difference, however, is that you really don’t seem to understand the basic foundations of a team comp, but others of us do. In this comp, I left out a bunker, but it otherwise follows some very simple rules and strategies that you need to understand.

Where is each guy positioned? How does each guy complement the other?

You claim to know how to team comp and yet leave out one of the most important roles in the game that has been on every single tournament team since there has been Guild Wars 2 tournaments?

Lay out these very simple rules and strategies that I “need” to learn from you?

Again, like the other guy, who are you?

I like the attitude and serious attempt to counter the meta. I will be interested how it plays out. While I share some reservations that it will hold up to the test of reality, I am sure you and your partners will learn something and evolve this to either something new or find that it just moves back toward the meta comp.

I have a question about the role of the ele here: is your primary goal support, or damage? I am assuming support, as it is specced bunker and using a solider’s amulet. You also said that your goal is to apply weakness/CCs while mixing in a bit of damage.

If that is the case, then you may want to consider taking glyph of elemental power, which can be popped in air and then let you spread out mass amounts of weakness with every single aoe/attack. Otherwise, if you want damage, you won’t be finding much with a solider’s amulet/cleric’s jewel.

Also, your team comp seems to rely on the other team pushing mid and defending home. What is the planned strategy if they counter your comp by splitting far/home and only occupying your guardian at mid?

Good luck!

Staff ele is a mix of support, AoE dmg, and control used at specific advantageous times. Ele as a class provides versatility with all of their weapon choices, so there are a lot of different things they can do.

In the Q&A I mention that Staff Eles can take Zerker if they want to do more damage. The tankiness is there so when you use Water 3 and 5 it helps your Guardian

The split is not going to be very effective b/c if executed the team is communicating they move where they are going. Mesmer has portal and the whole team has swiftness so they can harrass them.

That’s the part that’s skill oriented. Gotta be on the lookout

Staff Ele just gets jumped by the next necro burst and cant move until he dies. If he is using to many boons → corrupt.

Depends on positioning and whether the team is aware of where the Necro is. If they are focus firing the staff ele, chances are he’s way out of position.

jmatb.6307:

Where is each guy positioned? How does each guy complement the other?

You claim to know how to team comp and yet leave out one of the most important roles in the game that has been on every single tournament team since there has been Guild Wars 2 tournaments?

Lay out these very simple rules and strategies that I “need” to learn from you?

Again, like the other guy, who are you?

Well, there went even the slightest sliver of sympathy I might have felt for you.

First, God is an NA engineer that I’ve had the pleasure of playing with and against multiple times. He is currently ranked 175 in Team Arena and 46 in Solo Arena. He played in the PAX qualifiers, too (unfortunately, his team lost to [SYNC]… But then again, [SYNC] did win the entire tournament). I’ve found his input quite useful in the time I’ve known him.

As for me, I’m one of the few people on these forums or in the game in general that does not buildcraft off of playtesting (which can sometimes have disastrous effects on build comps due to the variety of biases that can be factored in), but rather views everything from purely objective analysis via the usage of mathematical models that have been quite helpful to me in theory crafting in this game. Granted, I still have a ways to go before my models encompass a significant enough amount of the game to be used on their own, but they have been extremely useful up to now, and after a certain discussion I was having with somebody on the warrior forums a few days ago, I had a few revelations that have come with some major breakthroughs for me. If you still can’t figure out why any of this should mean anything to you, let me put it to you this way: one myth in the thief community is the idea that 30 CS is necessary for damage. What a large portion of the community does not realize, however, is that 300 precision and 30% additional crit damage only increases your damage relative to base by somewhere around ~1.5% more than you’d gain from just taking 10 points into Deadly Arts. Some like to argue the value of Executioner, but even the damage amplification from that tends to be significantly less than what they’d like to think in practical usage. Precision in general, as a matter of fact, tends to be a crappy stat. The exception for 30 CS is Hidden Killer, which is an… Incredibly interesting trait that is fairly limiting in its applications, but could nonetheless theoretically boost damage significantly. Still, for builds like, say, S/D, the value of 30 CS is extremely overblown.

So now that you know who I am, perhaps you’ll take me more seriously when I tell you that defense tends to scale far worse, relative to base, than does offense. In other words, assuming neither player heals (that comes later), if I invested fully into offense and my opponent invests fully into defense, I will win. Even factoring in heals, however, toughness is the only stat that really gets a boost in ability, and even its boost isn’t enough to make it better than plain ol’ power. Ultimately, then, bunkers are only good against other bunkers or tanks, as neither of them deal enough damage to overcome the guard’s heal. Then again, however, if I was forming a team comp, I wouldn’t have a tank or bunker fight another bunker, so that point is often rendered somewhat useless. The only thing a bunker is good for is a team fight, but if I wanted a guard to participate in a team fight, I’d much rather make him or her a tank, dealing more damage than before and having just as much other team support options.

I’d go into more details, but as I’m probably approaching the 5,000 character limit, I’ll just let you mull over that for a bit.

I’m sure you can understand if someone comes in and starts linking “better” builds and starts telling you to learn to play the game how that might appear to be offensive.

Well you might find him to be however you like, the dude’s trousers are at his ankles with the “input” he’s providing in this thread. I don’t really find anybody with that attitude to be worth talking to.

I can understand mathematic analysis on its merits. You are right about power > precision it scales much, much better if you just compare the two. A 1v1 is about being aggressive enough to pressure them, and just resourceful enough with defense to outlast the opponent I agree.

A bunker supports their teammates in those fights, and their teammates support them. When you analyze teams like Team Curse, you see synergy all over the place. They protect each other as well as attack the enemy. They position themselves and attack as one unit.

Mathematical analysis can help you determine what is the most efficient, which is very powerful. “Mathematics is the gate and key to the sciences.” That complements looking at team compositions socially and pragmatically. You have to couple that with experience within the game though, where you see how team synergy matters just as much as the result of 1v1 duels, algorithms, and objectively looking at attributes, damage, and coefficients.

Can a 1v1 spec demolish the Staff Ele I proposed? Sure. But is that a good idea to go that far out of position for, when their Mesmer teammate can activate their portal, bring their Warrior to the fight, and suddenly they are in a lethal situation?

I respect you a bit more for bringing a totally different view on the game. Just don’t come into someone’s thread and tell them that they need to learn something, link other people’s builds, and doesn’t really explain how that team would even be a team.

Also, check out when the last time anyone in the top 10 Solo Arena actually played a solo Q match. Objective stuff, that leaderboard chest pumping is.

Godofallu.2935:

PS: I can jump on spirit ranger and laugh at cruuk all day long while he just gets madder and madder at his inability to kill me. If you think his build can beat a great spirit ranger you have clearly never played against him with one or talked to him.

Did you see that the build uses S/D as the off weapon set? That’s a little different to deal with than Cruuk’s build, since you are dependent on boons and condis, which is what S/D specializes in dealing with as a secondary weapon set.

I’ve played against quite a few spirit rangers. People are copying and pasting them at every corner of PvP. They have weaknesses and can be completely destroyed 1v1. There are many ways to actually. This build is one of them.

It really says a lot about the community when, instead of running the builds that aren’t cheese, it continues to run any and all broken loadouts.

How to fix the meta? Stop playing meta builds until Anet fixes it. The game is so far gone, that maintaining the win-at-all-costs-take-all-advantages-all-asuran-teamcomp mindset is just going to drive this game further into the ground.

“Why would I run a build that isn’t as effective as X or Y?”

Because you have integrity.

But who am I kidding? This is the internet.

People choose to run these builds b/c they don’t believe they have weaknesses but if you look at them, study them, run them, and learn about the game overall you will find weaknesses.

Whether or not people are willing to try something new or risky really depends on whether they have to guts to.

JonathanSharp.7094:

trying to make sure we don’t “force” the meta in one direction or another. Metas are always driven by player perception, so our goal is to provide the players with multiple viable choices, and let them decide how they want to approach the game.

where is the meta choice without guardian? I can´t see any other viable teamsupporter that can bunker a node.

You really have to work on the amount of viable builds to free up class choice so we dont get stuck with one meta

jmatb.6307:

People choose to run these builds b/c they don’t believe they have weaknesses but if you look at them, study them, run them, and learn about the game overall you will find weaknesses.

Whether or not people are willing to try something new or risky really depends on whether they have to guts to.

I agree wholeheartedly, when you actually* take the time* to learn the builds, then you can find the weaknesses. Sometimes, though, the cons of a build are so overshadowed by the pros of it, its no wonder people flock to them.

But more to the point, the community is, by and large, unwilling to put forth that magical little thing called effort to explore other options besides what they are currently being smashed by. A part of me thinks they deserve to be punished for simply copypasting a build, but the competitive side of me thinks the only way for us to achieve balance, is to play balanced.

Take some pride in your victory, don’t let a build carry you across the finish line simply because its programmed to.

It’s a good idea maybe, but i think thats all. The problem is here based on your classes. Your defense abilities are too bad, your idea could only work if the enemy Team is doing what expect them to do, dps your guardian and ignoring the range spammer ele and mess.

But no serious team will do that… Staff ele and Messmer are squishy as hell.
In your showed spec’s the ele will not do much Dmg, Messmer either.

Normally the Meta runs the S/D thief, he will just eat your ele and messmer. So only by their thief one of your needed AOE spammers is completly out of the game.

0 Points in illusions your shatter skills has cooldowns like hell, a Necro will laugh about your messmer condi removal and also eat him quite easy.

A fine engineer should be easy able to stomp your war on close node, also the ranger will survive long enough vs your thief until ele or mess die at the TF.

These 2 weak classes will get presure the hole time in the teamfight, and dont forget, the enemy thief will evades 80% of the ele DPS (btw dps, he is bunker specced, the staff will do nearly zero dps) and the GS messmer i think is not really able to do much dps cause he has to run and disengage from necro the most time. You will have much better chances by ignoring the far point and use your thief where it should be, in the TF to transfer the presure at the enemies….

Ele Messmer and the warrior spec are more teamfight based, but you will still lack of DPS.

Your War spec is played by many ppl atm, but i still think the GS one is the better choice. Hammer/ longbow is nice vs a spirit ranger compared to mace/gs but worse vs engi and necro.

I think a warrior can replace the ranger on the homenode, cause rly strong in 1v1. But atm i still think you need to run a necro and thief. If you replace the nodedefend, maybe there is another option instead of ranger for the teamfight out.

I think there’s some misconception here…

It’s not that players as a whole don’t want to try different things here and there to cope with the trash builds, it’s just that because balance is so out of it, it becomes a disconcerted effort.

Why make such Herculean effort in an undernourished environment when the developers can simply course-correct the direction they pushed towards in the first place? Top players have already proved they can beat teams that employ these unsavoury elements, but a lot of them have also remarked at how distasteful the experience is, which is the point.

Understand, not a lot is needed to make things more enjoyable. These trash builds don’t even need to die in my opinion. They just need to be weakened enough to bring them in line with others.

Judging by Mr. Sharp’s post, they unequivocally ‘get’ that we need more options and viability (not just pre-game choices, but also mid-game for that matter). At the same when trying to get things ‘right’, iteration is king…

By all means make bold changes and try cool new things, keep the meta shifting. The key is that it needs to remain in flux, even if it’s incredibly subtle. Leaving things stagnant for Pax may not have been the best decision. Especially when the current environment is so potentially damaging to the game.

ill try that mesmer build u posted.its similar to mineso we will see. or i might try my wvw build out as we deal with tons of conditions + heavy siegeing there

This game definitely needs more counter options. That being said, the current meta is still too strong and should be, 1) nerfed, 2) require more skill and risk to play. One thing is the existence of counters. Another is the existence of builds that can outplay other builds by stacking aoes or letting the AI play itself.

I’d say that the current 3-utility slot is a bit too restricted, and there aren’t enough good traits for many professions to compensate for it. Elites almost never provide real utility, depending on the profession we’re talking about – they’re almost always “epic” buttons or “kill faster” buttons, so we need to fit our stun breakers and our condition removals in three slots, which ultimately restricts us from most of the remaining utility options. When only some weapons and some traitlines provide meaningful alternatives (usually in the form of condition cleansing – almost never as a secondary source of stun breaking), it means that in order to open up more space to our utility skills, we need to be “stuck” at specific traits in specific traitlines.

I’d be willing to try this comp just for variety’s sake, if anyone else wants to run it this weekend. All the theorycrafting in the world isn’t going to tell us whether this build works or not, simply because theorycrafting (while helpful) often doesn’t take into account important factors like team synergy, mobility, and positioning. Theorycrafting is aptly named because it helps come up with theories, it doesn’t yield ultimate answers.

Out of curiosity, I’d be interested to see how this comp would play out using a necro in place of the ele. You lose out on the swiftness, but you get more CC via fears, more AOE dps, and the necro himself is a bit more survivable. Sometimes beating the meta involves only a partial deviation from it. If I’m overlooking something, feel free to let me know.

I’d also been willing to try this comp but as i main mesmer since release i’ll go ahead and say that i already have tried all different types of builds and the one you said is terrible.

First the trait line is useless since you empower your phantasm and then the grandmaster said “hey if you want something semi-worthy now you have to shatter them”. Plus the main ideal of shatter is to burst damage and this is when you’ll use it when you’re attacking (focusing someone), this is NOT when you want peels/cleanses and support. Essentially what you want is steadily cleanse of condis, not burst cleanse. I have tried this build over a week, its so bad i can’t even believe, an S/D thief will eat you alive using 1 key in his keyboard nonetheless (#3) which is essentially why mesmers are bad currently, not only because of condis.. just saying.

I appreciate that at least you are putting thought and effort into this JMA. Overall it looks like more of an AoE pressure via direct damage than it does burst (which is probably better against spirit rangers at the very least). As it is built in the write up I don’t think it will work, but I do think that the concept can work decently (though I don’t think it will meet much success against the truly good teams).

The Mesmer and Ele are going to really struggle to be effective. I would consider the idea of swapping those 2 for a real S/D burst ele that is 30 in air with a more aggressive ammy and some other kind of burster. Conjure Fiery Greatsword (along with the other ele elites) is kinda crappy, but it can put out some pretty strong AoE pressure if 2 burst builds rain down hell on a point, and I think that the AoE bursts from the S/D set would get rid of the spirit clutter faster than a Soldier staff build anyway.

If you wanna fool around and try to get it to work, then I can run the bunker for you and maybe the Mesmer or Thief too, but I am much more practiced on the guardian.

BTW,

Godofallu might seem a bit… aggressive… but I assure you he is actually a pretty nice guy and a kitten fine player with a good understanding of the game. I’ve played with the guy a fair amount, so I am comfortable saying that while he is often very direct in criticisms the intent isn’t generally to be jhackov, so try not to get too worked up about it.

I’m actually disappointed to see a thread like yours…
The problem is there is OBVIOUSLY some good players who already tried this, the “Burst setup”, and Conditions are so far stronger, this is a fact and people have to understand this seriously.
Now the main point I want to explain in this thread, is the answer from Jonathan Sharp, showing how you are wrong, because he knows the Meta is like she is and this is the main Issue at the moment. I don’t know, he’s maybe just trying to take advantage in this situation, to calm down some people etc…

JonathanSharp.7094:

This is a very interesting thread, thanks for keeping it so positive!

As devs, we’re always watching the meta and trying to make sure we don’t “force” the meta in one direction or another. Metas are always driven by player perception, so our goal is to provide the players with multiple viable choices, and let them decide how they want to approach the game.

Perception of balance is key in how players approach the game, so our goal right now is to open up more options through balance without completely taking away the condition “meta” option.

Seriously? This is not like no one tried to play some “burst setup” in the whole world, lol. I’m actually not pessimist about Gw2 sPvP, but just stop consider people for ignorant. I think NA have the most people who’s trying to bring some new setup in this game, but in every tournaments we can see how it’s going on…(Double ranger in the winning Team for the Pax, Btw). In EU there is a lot of try too, but I don’t think there is more than NA. But anyway, the point is don’t tell us(or make understand) that we have a good Meta or a Meta oppened to some new setup, cause I think we actually could found it, god knows how many players are in this game and how much times they spend to think about it.
I’m not saying you’re not trying to do your best, but after one year, you should maybe start to tell us some words deserving our attention.