Guild Wars 2

I actually don’t see Doom needing a nerf. It’s a direct counter to high sustain builds with a lot of burst healing. Zerkers are susceptible to all conditions poison or not, so a nerf to this wouldn’t really change the scene. If your issue is the lack of powerful healing, I think you should direct your attention to the scaling of healing itself, not sigil of doom or poison in general.

As for sigil of energy… I’m a Mesmer main, so all of my offensive builds (dps or condi) desperately need this since Vigor was severely nerfed for us. A nerf to this sigil would severely handicap Mesmers more so than other classes, so I’m pretty biased.

Nerfing any of these sigils would make cele builds even stronger, you would never be able to burst them down without air and fire. Never be able to lower their sustain with doom. Never be able to survive on necro or mesmer without energy. I think the sigils are actually at a really good spot right now, it is eles, engis, warriors, and the celestial amulet that need some nerfs.
Also, rangers, mesmers, and necros all need buffs. These classes are only taken competitively by a few players who are outliers in that their skill level is like mount everest. The people playing those classes competitively are good enough to overcome the innate weaknesses of the professions. Mesmers just need a better matchup against thieves, necros need to be able to survive in team fights for more than 2 seconds, and rangers need… something (that isn’t pressing 2 for stupid damage).

Solstice.1097:

insanemaniac.2456:

Solstice.1097:

insanemaniac.2456:

Solstice.1097:

hmmm this brings up an interesting thought… what if certain sigils should be made mutually exclusive with certain weapons. for example air/fire sigils don’t work on thief dagger, mesmer GS, or ranger LB. energy sigils dont work on thf SB, ele dagger or warrior warhorn,. can be done with runes/amulets too like soldier amulet doesn’t work with turret traits, balthazar runes don’t work with incindiary powder.

if not every class had the same choices, it would be 100x easier to balance things that need balancing without creating so many unintended consequences.

an example of this would be remember how Lyssa runes were nerfed? Well instead of nerfing them across the board, they could have just made them not work with basilisk venom or signet of rage.

adding in a bunch of (potentially undocumented) exceptions is opposite the direction the devs want with balance.. it drastically raises the barrier to entry for new blood

or one could say the opposite, and that by Anet’s own logic having fewer things to choose from makes it easier.

taking lyssa runes… if it had a cutoff at 75 seconds for the 6 piece bonus where if the elite is below 75 sec cd, it only converts 5 condis, and above a 75 sec cd, it converts all. thats just needlessly complicated. it works inconsistently between professions. it makes for a really long tooltip. if you decide to only show the “correct” tooltip for each equipped elite, then there is info hidden from players that can only be accessed by going out of their way to look for it.

i think those 3 things are good enough reason to balance every use case around optimal use cases instead of making exceptions. because at least if one balances around optimality, one does not need to gum up the system with poorly telegraphed, conditional, or excepted info.

and then… what if a player notices air/fire sigils and is like “oh, these are great for burst damage… my teef is a bursty toon… maybe ill try air/fire on his weapons” but then looks at the sigil options for daggers and cant find air/fire? that situation is a real head scratcher for him. it doesnt make sense. he would have to go read all the patch notes ever in order to find out why that is the way it is or something, and therein lies the problem… there is inconsistent functionality, and he would have to go out of his way to get an explanation for why.

i dunno, youre proposing anet targets balance at a really micro level, and i think doing so would overcomplicate the game and make it wayyyy less accessible.

maybe you misread or i didn’t explain clearly. in the lyssa example, if you had signet of rage equipped, then Lyssa would not be one of the options when choosing your rune. it would be grayed out, and if you try to click on it you get the message this rune is not compatible with X so remove X if you want this rune.

I also think some of you are overstating how much Anet cares about keeping the entry barrier low. I mean, look at how great of a tutorial PvP has!

ok yeah i misread that, but the fire/air example is pertinent then.

Who are the ones calling for a nerf on these sigils that have been the same since launch? As stated by others, nerfing these sigils would help the meta classes since doom is often chosen to combat sustaining builds.

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, I didn’t wanna get on Cele but come on, if half the meta uses it there’s obviously something wrong.

And the other half classes are zerker. By the same logic let’s first nerf zerkers.

Zerker medi guard
Zerker thief
Zerker mesmer

we also see some zerker bowrangers

He’s mainly talking about high tier Tournament Teams. Not half of the baddies on this game. There’s a reason why these teams have at least three players running Celestials.

Celestial amulet is more than fine. Only 3 classes run that normally engi/war/ele. And you see some warriors with soldiers too. Zerker is more of a problem than celestial after might nerf.

How many teams have Engi/War/Ele in their comp in tournaments? Thanks for valdidating my point

Back on topic
The argument here isn’t Dooms damage but the -33% heal debuff. Whether the duration should be reduced or the healing debuff should be less.

Tank amulet users want a nerf. Dps amulet users are saying no. Condi users are saying, “Don’t nurf Mai dmg kthx!”.

You have problems reading and comprehending. You qq about celestial and say the presence of engi/ele/war as a prof against celestial. Flawed logic

Celestial not working in 5 out of 8 classes is enough evidence to conclude that celestial is not the problem. The problem is on engi/war and dd ele not on the amulet itself.

Luckly anet seems to know this and is nerfing things like might, grenade kit, dreake’s breath and not the celestial amulet itself.

Like Aomine.5012 said, zerkers are present in tournaments.

Leodon.1564:

Who are the ones calling for a nerf on these sigils that have been the same since launch? As stated by others, nerfing these sigils would help the meta classes since doom is often chosen to combat sustaining builds.

sigils have not been the same since launch.

I think all “on crit” sigils should be brought down to
“on hit” and balanced around the more reliable application.

It severely hampers sigil choice for builds that don’t stack crit like mad, which are generally the builds in need of more utility due to less damage output.

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Energy is an extremely vital must-have to the Mesmer, Condi Necro, and often not utilized by Ele/Engi/War, with some exceptions.

Shaving Doom and shaving Energy would probably only solidify the status quo more.

Have to agree with you on this one, mesmer is a very good example of this on Staff

i rarely see people run energy now.

before with hambow i still run energy, but now with shoutheal i just go geo doom.

thieves don’t go energy anymore either, mesmer goes fire air on gs.

engis and ele don’t go energy either.

mostly used for not as great builds imo with no vigor up time or bad survive.
like i would use it on certain zerker war build, or necro

insanemaniac.2456:

Leodon.1564:

Who are the ones calling for a nerf on these sigils that have been the same since launch? As stated by others, nerfing these sigils would help the meta classes since doom is often chosen to combat sustaining builds.

sigils have not been the same since launch.

Are you saying that these two sigils have somehow changed in the not too distant past or do you mean sigils in general?

I never really used Doom before but have recently started to use it on certain occasions if I’m playing against a heavy number of sustain builds (i.e. celest warriors/eles/engies). For me, its a situational sigil and seems fine as is. All of the nerf talk seems like its coming from the masses that are playing celest builds now.

Doom is the most important sigil right now to combat the everlasting sustain that warrior, engineers and elementalist have. It’s very useful to reduce potential healing by 33% or at least use it as condi slot so that most damaging conditions won’t be cleansed so easily. Same thing with air and fire. By nerfing these sigils to ground, you are essentially taking away a huge part of dps roles which makes the entire pvp match turn into unkillable bunker fight.
Also weapon sigils have their own internal cooldown unaffected by weapon swap traits/runes so talking about sigil cd is pointless and dumb. What we should see is at least some buff to doom/air/fire sigils to punish sustaining classes as well as make each maneuvering mistakes more noticeable.
Also energy sigil is fine as it is because that’s the only thing it does on 9 sec cool down. By taking energy sigil you are losing out on other sigils that could be more important for the team such as healing power for bunker roles or more condi sigils for forcing early burn of condi removal skills.

and people saying on crit sigils should be brought down, i mean, it’s not the sigils.
it’s thief and mesmers…

just like it’s not might.
it’s engis and eles

Over 70% of the Pvp forum is made up of nerf threads, if the Devs would listen to even half of them….we would be fighting with water guns by now

Leodon.1564:

insanemaniac.2456:

Leodon.1564:

Who are the ones calling for a nerf on these sigils that have been the same since launch? As stated by others, nerfing these sigils would help the meta classes since doom is often chosen to combat sustaining builds.

sigils have not been the same since launch.

Are you saying that these two sigils have somehow changed in the not too distant past or do you mean sigils in general?

I never really used Doom before but have recently started to use it on certain occasions if I’m playing against a heavy number of sustain builds (i.e. celest warriors/eles/engies). For me, its a situational sigil and seems fine as is. All of the nerf talk seems like its coming from the masses that are playing celest builds now.

both. the change to icds brought many previously crap sigils into the spotlight. before, sigil choice was extremely limited because you had to take things that played nice together. none of the currently strong sigils played nice.

PopeUrban.2578:

I think all “on crit” sigils should be brought down to
“on hit” and balanced around the more reliable application.

It severely hampers sigil choice for builds that don’t stack crit like mad, which are generally the builds in need of more utility due to less damage output.

This is one of the best suggestions I’ve seen in this forums. Making them have a chance to proc on all atks and not just crits reduces the rng involved a bit. Also makes more viable builds that dont have precision.

You should post this idea as a new thread.

xDudisx.5914:

Mesmer does not need more vigor access. They get 50% vigor uptime just from 1 minor trait in a traitline that all mesmers run. It is not that necro has too little dodges, the problem is that almost all meta builds have way too much vigor uptime and in most cases it comes from passive adept or minor traits.

I like the way anet is nerfing boons. First might reducing the max dmg output and now incomig stab nerf. Would like to see some nerf to the boon vigor. Maybe go from 100% extra regen to 50-75%

Vigor has too much uptime for zero effort required, I don’t get it.

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, I didn’t wanna get on Cele but come on, if half the meta uses it there’s obviously something wrong.

And the other half classes are zerker. By the same logic let’s first nerf zerkers.

Zerker medi guard
Zerker thief
Zerker mesmer

we also see some zerker bowrangers

He’s mainly talking about high tier Tournament Teams. Not half of the baddies on this game. There’s a reason why these teams have at least three players running Celestials.

Celestial amulet is more than fine. Only 3 classes run that normally engi/war/ele. And you see some warriors with soldiers too. Zerker is more of a problem than celestial after might nerf.

How many teams have Engi/War/Ele in their comp in tournaments? Thanks for valdidating my point

Back on topic
The argument here isn’t Dooms damage but the -33% heal debuff. Whether the duration should be reduced or the healing debuff should be less.

Tank amulet users want a nerf. Dps amulet users are saying no. Condi users are saying, “Don’t nurf Mai dmg kthx!”.

You have problems reading and comprehending. You qq about celestial and say the presence of engi/ele/war as a prof against celestial. Flawed logic

Celestial not working in 5 out of 8 classes is enough evidence to conclude that celestial is not the problem. The problem is on engi/war and dd ele not on the amulet itself.

Luckly anet seems to know this and is nerfing things like might, grenade kit, dreake’s breath and not the celestial amulet itself.

Like Aomine.5012 said, zerkers are present in tournaments.

So quick to assume. 1) I never said Celestial was a problem, nor have I ever said the amulet needed a nerf. 2) You completely overlooked my entire point.

A nerf to Doom and Celestials WILL be a problem. As well as other bunker type classes, they will be more of a hassle to deal with.
Same for Energy. Some builds will simply suck without these Sigils working for them.

Supreme.3164:

Over 70% of the Pvp forum is made up of nerf threads, if the Devs would listen to even half of them….we would be fighting with water guns by now

Simon.3794:

and people saying on crit sigils should be brought down, i mean, it’s not the sigils.
it’s thief and mesmers…

just like it’s not might.
it’s engis and eles

I say just add more on-hit sigils than changing the crit ones. More variety is better and it gives a unique value to precision. (and fury)

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, I didn’t wanna get on Cele but come on, if half the meta uses it there’s obviously something wrong.

And the other half classes are zerker. By the same logic let’s first nerf zerkers.

Zerker medi guard
Zerker thief
Zerker mesmer

we also see some zerker bowrangers

He’s mainly talking about high tier Tournament Teams. Not half of the baddies on this game. There’s a reason why these teams have at least three players running Celestials.

Celestial amulet is more than fine. Only 3 classes run that normally engi/war/ele. And you see some warriors with soldiers too. Zerker is more of a problem than celestial after might nerf.

How many teams have Engi/War/Ele in their comp in tournaments? Thanks for valdidating my point

Back on topic
The argument here isn’t Dooms damage but the -33% heal debuff. Whether the duration should be reduced or the healing debuff should be less.

Tank amulet users want a nerf. Dps amulet users are saying no. Condi users are saying, “Don’t nurf Mai dmg kthx!”.

You have problems reading and comprehending. You qq about celestial and say the presence of engi/ele/war as a prof against celestial. Flawed logic

Celestial not working in 5 out of 8 classes is enough evidence to conclude that celestial is not the problem. The problem is on engi/war and dd ele not on the amulet itself.

Luckly anet seems to know this and is nerfing things like might, grenade kit, dreake’s breath and not the celestial amulet itself.

Like Aomine.5012 said, zerkers are present in tournaments.

So quick to assume. 1) I never said Celestial was a problem, nor have I ever said the amulet needed a nerf. 2) You completely overlooked my entire point.

A nerf to Doom and Celestials WILL be a problem. As well as other bunker type classes, they will be more of a hassle to deal with.
Same for Energy. Some builds will simply suck without these Sigils working for them.

Supreme.3164:

Over 70% of the Pvp forum is made up of nerf threads, if the Devs would listen to even half of them….we would be fighting with water guns by now

You said: “He’s mainly talking about high tier Tournament Teams. Not half of the baddies on this game. There’s a reason why these teams have at least three players running Celestials.”

That is implying that celestial is broken.

Why do all the nerf threads and posts come from the same few people?

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

As for doom sigil.

Yes it is powerful but is also central to several condition builds because they are overly reliant on a single condition (either burning in the case of guardians or bleeding on the case of warriors.)

If it were to be removed or even reduced in effectiveness then those builds would suffer quite badly.

Limited access not none. Not placing a value judgement of whether or not more/less is needed. But just that there is a way to get it.

PvP Specialist Here

It seems like the idea from this thread is this:

1. Doom is strong because celestial is the meta. It’s a necessary evil to counter those builds.
2. Energy is another necessary evil to make up for a lack of defense in certain classes (Mesmer, necromancer mostly)
3. Fire and Air is mostly seen as too much.

Is that about right?

I have some other questions about this topic:

1. It’s hard to bring up Doom without also bringing up celestial. If celestial wasn’t the meta and instead we were back to an old meta (Two bunkers, 3 DPS or maybe the Decap meta), do you think we’d still be calling this sigil OP?
2. Let’s say Air was changed to be 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5s, thus removing this combo. Do you think any builds in particular would no longer be viable? Try to ignore what my example for Air is here. Assume that air would be balanced, but still deal no damage.
3. Energy sigil is fairly uncommon now I’ve found. In the past with builds like the Decap engineer or Bunker Guardian, it was very strong and downright annoying. We’ve now sort of stepped away from that bunker meta and only glassy classes take it (Shatter mesmer, S/D thief). Do you think this is the same case as the Doom sigil in that it’s only seen as underpowered because the meta has shifted this way?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

PvP Specialist Here

It seems like the idea from this thread is this:

1. Doom is strong because celestial is the meta. It’s a necessary evil to counter those builds.
2. Energy is another necessary evil to make up for a lack of defense in certain classes (Mesmer, necromancer mostly)
3. Fire and Air is mostly seen as too much.

Is that about right?

---

I have some other questions about this topic:

1. It’s hard to bring up Doom without also bringing up celestial. If celestial wasn’t the meta and instead we were back to an old meta (Two bunkers, 3 DPS or maybe the Decap meta), do you think we’d still be calling this sigil OP?
2. Let’s say Air was changed to be 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5s, thus removing this combo. Do you think any builds in particular would no longer be viable? Try to ignore what my example for Air is here. Assume that air would be balanced, but still deal no damage.
3. Energy sigil is fairly uncommon now I’ve found. In the past with builds like the Decap engineer or Bunker Guardian, it was very strong and downright annoying. We’ve now sort of stepped away from that bunker meta and only glassy classes take it (Shatter mesmer, S/D thief). Do you think this is the same case as the Doom sigil in that it’s only seen as underpowered because the meta has shifted this way?

No I don’t think doom would be OP in previous metas, with five players on your team you would have enough poison to deal with two bunkers.

My opinion is that this game already has a pretty long time to kill, so I’m not for nerfs to fire and air. If air was nerfed, I don’t think you would see as many s/d thieves because that is a very large portion of their damage.

That’s about right, in a meta of burst specs, energy sigils would look like they needed nerfing. Since celestial builds are more about sustained damage, energy sigils don’t really help much (Except on necros, and mesmers both of which need buffs imo).

I am perfectly fine leaving doom and energy as-is as long as cele is balanced. That is what is breaking the game.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Energy sigil is fairly uncommon now I’ve found. In the past with builds like the Decap engineer or Bunker Guardian, it was very strong and downright annoying. We’ve now sort of stepped away from that bunker meta and only glassy classes take it (Shatter mesmer, S/D thief). Do you think this is the same case as the Doom sigil in that it’s only seen as underpowered because the meta has shifted this way?

energy sigil is still as strong as perma vigor, and most vigor traits “needed” nerfing when they provided perma vigor. its pretty logical to extend that to energy. i think its uncommon now only because of the current meta.

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Shaving Doom […] would probably only solidify the status quo more.

But the most prominent users of Sigil of Doom are those same high sustain builds; not the alternate builds, most of which are DPS builds, or other sustain builds outside the meta.

If Sigil of Doom was so crucial to keeping celestial builds in check, wouldn’t we see it being used more by lots of players?

Exedore.6320:

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Shaving Doom […] would probably only solidify the status quo more.

But the most prominent users of Sigil of Doom are those same high sustain builds; not the alternate builds, most of which are DPS builds, or other sustain builds outside the meta.

If Sigil of Doom was so crucial to keeping celestial builds in check, wouldn’t we see it being used more by lots of players?

Just taking a look at meta builds:

1. Engineer generally takes it, or intelligence. This is regardless of build besides 100 mines and turret builds.
2. Elementalist takes it.
3. Warrior takes it.
4. Mesmer takes it (generally on staff)
5. Thief doesn’t normally take it, but they always have shortbow’s choking gas, steal and dagger auto attacks.
6. Ranger sometimes takes it, but they also have poison on condi builds.
7. Guardian doesn’t generally take it
8. Necromancer doesn’t usually take it, but they have poison.

So really everyone takes it who doesn’t have a lot of poison in their build.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Exedore.6320:

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Shaving Doom […] would probably only solidify the status quo more.

But the most prominent users of Sigil of Doom are those same high sustain builds; not the alternate builds, most of which are DPS builds, or other sustain builds outside the meta.

If Sigil of Doom was so crucial to keeping celestial builds in check, wouldn’t we see it being used more by lots of players?

Just taking a look at meta builds:

1. Engineer generally takes it, or intelligence. This is regardless of build besides 100 mines and turret builds.
2. Elementalist takes it.
3. Warrior takes it.
4. Mesmer takes it (generally on staff)
5. Thief doesn’t normally take it, but they always have shortbow’s choking gas, steal and dagger auto attacks.
6. Ranger sometimes takes it, but they also have poison on condi builds.
7. Guardian doesn’t generally take it
8. Necromancer doesn’t usually take it, but they have poison.

So really everyone takes it who doesn’t have a lot of poison in their build.

Dividing them in groups:

3 classes that never take it: necro, guard and thief
3 classes that sometimes use it: engi, mes and ranger
2 classes that always use it: ele and war

37.5% of the classes never use sigil of doom
37.5% sometimes use it (I see most engis with entiligence and hardly see a condi ranger)
25% of the classes always use sigil of doom

From the 25% that always use 2 are celestial users.
From the 37.5% that never uses none are celestial classes.

So how nerfing doom will make celestial more powerfull? Most of the classes that don’t run celestial don’t use doom either because they have other source of poison that would’t be affected by doom nerf or just don’t use poison at all.

Nerfing doom duration will reduce the access to poison for war and ele. Reducing their ability to reduce the enemy healing effects.

The only celestial class that would not be effected much is engi because poison from grenades.

Conclusion: the ones who don’t have poison in their builds are mostly the celestial users. And a nerf to doom will nerf them more than anything else.

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Exedore.6320:

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Shaving Doom […] would probably only solidify the status quo more.

But the most prominent users of Sigil of Doom are those same high sustain builds; not the alternate builds, most of which are DPS builds, or other sustain builds outside the meta.

If Sigil of Doom was so crucial to keeping celestial builds in check, wouldn’t we see it being used more by lots of players?

Just taking a look at meta builds:

1. Engineer generally takes it, or intelligence. This is regardless of build besides 100 mines and turret builds.
2. Elementalist takes it.
3. Warrior takes it.
4. Mesmer takes it (generally on staff)
5. Thief doesn’t normally take it, but they always have shortbow’s choking gas, steal and dagger auto attacks.
6. Ranger sometimes takes it, but they also have poison on condi builds.
7. Guardian doesn’t generally take it
8. Necromancer doesn’t usually take it, but they have poison.

So really everyone takes it who doesn’t have a lot of poison in their build.

Dividing them in groups:

3 classes that never take it: necro, guard and thief
3 classes that sometimes use it: engi, mes and ranger
2 classes that always use it: ele and war

37.5% of the classes never use sigil of doom
37.5% sometimes use it (I see most engis with entiligence and hardly see a condi ranger)
25% of the classes always use sigil of doom

From the 25% that always use 2 are celestial users.
From the 37.5% that never uses none are celestial classes.

So how nerfing doom will make celestial more powerfull? Most of the classes that don’t run celestial don’t use doom either because they have other source of poison that would’t be affected by doom nerf or just don’t use poison at all.

Nerfing doom duration will reduce the access to poison for war and ele. Reducing their ability to reduce the enemy healing effects.

The only class that would not be effected much is engi because poison from grenades.

so you are promoting for everlasting healings instead of actually punishing people in pvp match for losing fights? Because that doom sigil was one of the few ways to reduce healing from heavy sustain classes from healing everyone to full health in less than 5 seconds. Nerfing the doom sigil will turn the meta into more sustain fights, which ironically what celestial haters don’t want but somehow advocating for by nerfing such sigils. Also by that logic any chance on critical hit sigils must be removed because they are providing ways for other classes to apply condition that other classes don’t normally get, like sigil of blood, earth, strength, rage, etc.

There is also : sigil of intelligence that works like *an ele utility = arcane power but the sigil is on 9s Cd.

There is also sigil of air that works like ele minor trait air 15

There is also sigil of fire that works like ele minor fire trait 15 [even though the sigl is ranged aoe while ele is nearby foes and deal considerably less dmg]

What some people are saying is to remove doom sigil because ele/war should have not access to poison..but then the same reasoning should be applied to other sigils, none of you should have sigil of intelligence and air because they’re ele exclusive skills.

Ability to crit at 100% without having huge crit chance stats?..yeah that’s ele main skill
Ability to ranged lightning strike foes on crit and swap?..yeah that’s ele again

Energy is no more taken, because the meta is about bruisers, damage over time, huge burn, one dodge will not do big deal and people just have a lot of vigor.

which is also way doom is strong because people build for healing over time and poison is strong against, so if meta switched, no much people will take it imo

it’s mostly for classes who lack defensive mechanics.
but even so, i see less and less thieves take them, because they have nature defensive mechanics on their weapon skills.

I used it a lot on hambow, on zerker war, necro, mesmer zerker guardian etc.

TheFamster.7806:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Exedore.6320:

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Shaving Doom […] would probably only solidify the status quo more.

But the most prominent users of Sigil of Doom are those same high sustain builds; not the alternate builds, most of which are DPS builds, or other sustain builds outside the meta.

If Sigil of Doom was so crucial to keeping celestial builds in check, wouldn’t we see it being used more by lots of players?

Just taking a look at meta builds:

1. Engineer generally takes it, or intelligence. This is regardless of build besides 100 mines and turret builds.
2. Elementalist takes it.
3. Warrior takes it.
4. Mesmer takes it (generally on staff)
5. Thief doesn’t normally take it, but they always have shortbow’s choking gas, steal and dagger auto attacks.
6. Ranger sometimes takes it, but they also have poison on condi builds.
7. Guardian doesn’t generally take it
8. Necromancer doesn’t usually take it, but they have poison.

So really everyone takes it who doesn’t have a lot of poison in their build.

Dividing them in groups:

3 classes that never take it: necro, guard and thief
3 classes that sometimes use it: engi, mes and ranger
2 classes that always use it: ele and war

37.5% of the classes never use sigil of doom
37.5% sometimes use it (I see most engis with entiligence and hardly see a condi ranger)
25% of the classes always use sigil of doom

From the 25% that always use 2 are celestial users.
From the 37.5% that never uses none are celestial classes.

So how nerfing doom will make celestial more powerfull? Most of the classes that don’t run celestial don’t use doom either because they have other source of poison that would’t be affected by doom nerf or just don’t use poison at all.

Nerfing doom duration will reduce the access to poison for war and ele. Reducing their ability to reduce the enemy healing effects.

The only class that would not be effected much is engi because poison from grenades.

so you are promoting for everlasting healings instead of actually punishing people in pvp match for losing fights? Because that doom sigil was one of the few ways to reduce healing from heavy sustain classes from healing everyone to full health in less than 5 seconds. Nerfing the doom sigil will turn the meta into more sustain fights, which ironically what celestial haters don’t want but somehow advocating for by nerfing such sigils. Also by that logic any chance on critical hit sigils must be removed because they are providing ways for other classes to apply condition that other classes don’t normally get, like sigil of blood, earth, strength, rage, etc.

The only situation where nerfing doom is making people last longer in a fight is if a celestial if fighting another celestial. Right now it is already a very long/endless fight. The other classes as posted above dont use doom because they have other sources of poinson or just don’t feel like using it. So nerfing doom won’t how fast a thief ,guard, etc can burst through celestial’s hp.

Defending doom because celestial classes use it to fight celestial classes is the same logic as defend 25 might stacks because celestial classes use them to fight other celestial classes.

I don’t see why you gave those sigils as example of applying conditions

“Also by that logic any chance on critical hit sigils must be removed because they are providing ways for other classes to apply condition that other classes don’t normally get, like sigil of blood, earth, strength, rage, etc.”

Sigil of blood steals hp it doesnt apply conditions.
Sigil of stengh gives a boon not a condition.
Sigil of rage gives quicknots not a condition.

Sigil of earth applies conditions, but bleeding is one of the most common ones. The only class that has no bleeding source from weapons is guardian.
It is just a small dps increase and if you are not speced for condis it won’t help very much. Not like doom, because no one cares about the condi dmg from poison. People want just to reduce the enemy healing.

IMO doom should be more like sigil of ice. Applys a new condi that most builds don’t have access but has a small duration.

If too high survivability becomes a problem, a good way to reduce survivability would be a nerf to the boon vigor from 100% regen to 50 or 75%.

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

What about professions that can use 4 sigils at time? They would not lose anything respect to ele, engy ( and soon to be Revenant)

xDudisx.5914:

No because more nerfs will lead to more nerfs on other professions’s skill given Gw2’s very active combat. In current meta we complain about sustains when it is cele vs cele which often happen as part of rotation, but with the added mix of other classes rotating into the node compromises celestial and dps roles. By nerfing things you are in a way encouraging the entire rework of boons/conditions, which is almost impossible given that people have been playing this game over 2+ years and sudden change of the entire system will shake the very foundation of gw2 active combat.
Moreover gw2 pvp is also tied with wvw and pve, and by dictating your position of view you will be responsible for changing the entire Gw2 population just based on your opinion given the synergy of skill balance gw2 has on other modes as well. Instead of nerfing things to ground in order you should be more positive on finding out which skills/utiltiies/boons/conditions aren’t used in ideal situation and try to build upon current meta especially with incoming of new profession.
Unless you can change everything in few weeks in a way and expect everyone in gw2 community to adapt, you should not be proposing such dramatic nerf to any combat related contents in gw2

Supreme.3164:

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

What about professions that can use 4 sigils at time? They would not lose anything respect to ele, engy ( and soon to be Revenant)

They would lose the ability to chain certain powerful combos on the same set. No Fire/Air means that one attack can’t trigger both and deal a crap ton of damage because you had the nerve not to avoid an auto attack. You’ll also lose combos like Doom/Battle, Doom/Intelligence, or Doom/Geomancy.

This will hurt Engis and Ele, but as a Engi player I can say this change won’t suddenly make me terrible.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Supreme.3164:

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

What about professions that can use 4 sigils at time? They would not lose anything respect to ele, engy ( and soon to be Revenant)

They would lose the ability to chain certain powerful combos on the same set. No Fire/Air means that one attack can’t trigger both and deal a crap ton of damage because you had the nerve not to avoid an auto attack. You’ll also lose combos like Doom/Battle, Doom/Intelligence, or Doom/Geomancy.

This will hurt Engis and Ele, but as a Engi player I can say this change won’t suddenly make me terrible.

They may lose the combo, but they won’t lose the ability to use more than one type of sigil, a clear advantage that goes against what anet preach

TheFamster.7806:

xDudisx.5914:

No because more nerfs will lead to more nerfs on other professions’s skill given Gw2’s very active combat. In current meta we complain about sustains when it is cele vs cele which often happen as part of rotation, but with the added mix of other classes rotating into the node compromises celestial and dps roles. By nerfing things you are in a way encouraging the entire rework of boons/conditions, which is almost impossible given that people have been playing this game over 2+ years and sudden change of the entire system will shake the very foundation of gw2 active combat.
Moreover gw2 pvp is also tied with wvw and pve, and by dictating your position of view you will be responsible for changing the entire Gw2 population just based on your opinion given the synergy of skill balance gw2 has on other modes as well. Instead of nerfing things to ground in order you should be more positive on finding out which skills/utiltiies/boons/conditions aren’t used in ideal situation and try to build upon current meta especially with incoming of new profession.
Unless you can change everything in few weeks in a way and expect everyone in gw2 community to adapt, you should not be proposing such dramatic nerf to any combat related contents in gw2

I don’t understand why you say nerf/rework/buff for a boon or condi is not possible. They just did that last patch. Might went from 35 to 30 a nerf of 14%. In last POI livestream they said the are reworking stability. We are just discussing possible solutions on the forums. Nothing should be out of the table or treated as untouchable.

xDudisx.5914:

TheFamster.7806:

xDudisx.5914:

No because more nerfs will lead to more nerfs on other professions’s skill given Gw2’s very active combat. In current meta we complain about sustains when it is cele vs cele which often happen as part of rotation, but with the added mix of other classes rotating into the node compromises celestial and dps roles. By nerfing things you are in a way encouraging the entire rework of boons/conditions, which is almost impossible given that people have been playing this game over 2+ years and sudden change of the entire system will shake the very foundation of gw2 active combat.
Moreover gw2 pvp is also tied with wvw and pve, and by dictating your position of view you will be responsible for changing the entire Gw2 population just based on your opinion given the synergy of skill balance gw2 has on other modes as well. Instead of nerfing things to ground in order you should be more positive on finding out which skills/utiltiies/boons/conditions aren’t used in ideal situation and try to build upon current meta especially with incoming of new profession.
Unless you can change everything in few weeks in a way and expect everyone in gw2 community to adapt, you should not be proposing such dramatic nerf to any combat related contents in gw2

I don’t why you say nerf/rework/buff for a boon or condi is not possible. They just did that last patch. Might went from 35 to 30 a nerf of 14%. In last POI livestream they said the are reworking stability. We are just discussing possible solutions on the forums. Nothing should be out of the table or treated as untouchable.

Because stability and might are more of team based boons/stackable while vigor and other boons are not. Currently stability stacks in duration, and so does might. These boons are necessary components for teamfight and individuals, yet they are not essential for survival of individuals. Mesmers and thieves for example can survive without group stability, and technically any class without stab can survive with clever maneuvering and map awareness. However vigor is something that only affects one individual, and when it gets change people will adapt and part of the solution is opting for safe build.
Now with many “safe builds” around think how competitive tpvp will be even as of now. Since gw2 revolves around the active combat system, 1 dodge pretty much guarantees survival of that individual, whether it be pvp, wvw or pve. Also might nerf was very small change that people could live with or without, and stability change is not yet known so we cannot talk about it.
Basically nerfing things is not the optimal solution to improving any gameplay.

Supreme.3164:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Supreme.3164:

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

What about professions that can use 4 sigils at time? They would not lose anything respect to ele, engy ( and soon to be Revenant)

They would lose the ability to chain certain powerful combos on the same set. No Fire/Air means that one attack can’t trigger both and deal a crap ton of damage because you had the nerve not to avoid an auto attack. You’ll also lose combos like Doom/Battle, Doom/Intelligence, or Doom/Geomancy.

This will hurt Engis and Ele, but as a Engi player I can say this change won’t suddenly make me terrible.

They may lose the combo, but they won’t lose the ability to use more than one type of sigil, a clear advantage that goes against what anet preach

The 2 (soon to be 3) classes that only have access to 2 are also compensated by having access to more skills overall (generally, Engi can depend). In the case of Engi there’s also the advantage of being able to say, have Doom/Geo, swap at point black, then swap right back to something else and it only takes 2 seconds at most.

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

no. when sigils acted like this, it felt arbitrary. it was really annoying to not be able to take certain combinations just because of technical limitations. i, personally, would rather not go back to that. i would rather see anet play whack-a-mole with problematic sigils.

@ TheFamster.7806

I disagree that stability and might are only team based boons. We have builds that can get 20+ stacks by themselves. Most stability sources are caster only skills, like armor of earth, balance stance, lich form, etc.

Might is extremely good even in 1v1. The might nerf was needed because too many classes were stacking it and becoming close to god mode against non meta builds.

For vigor we have the same issue as might had. Look how almost all meta builds have very high vigor uptime from passive minor or adept traits.

meta d/d cele has perma vigor
meta mes has 50%+ vigor uptime
meta engi has 50% vigor uptime
thief has about 50% vigor uptime
medi guard has 50% vigor uptime
shoutbow has perma vigor

Only class that doesn’t have vigor is necro and this forces them to use sigil of energy. The boon itself is so strong that almost all meta builds have it up at least 50% of the time. This is pigeonholing the build variaty. Forcing players to spend traits in te must have trait line to obtain vigor.

insanemaniac.2456:

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

no. when sigils acted like this, it felt arbitrary. it was really annoying to not be able to take certain combinations just because of technical limitations. i, personally, would rather not go back to that. i would rather see anet play whack-a-mole with problematic sigils.

We’re not going back though. You can still have a Fire sigil and swap to a geomancy and not have it fail to activate because Fire just triggered. Almost every “problem combo” comes from 2 sigils of the same type overlapping.

xDudisx.5914:

@ TheFamster.7806

I disagree that stability and might are only team based boons. We have builds that can get 20+ stacks by themselves. Most stability sources are caster only skills, like armor of earth, balance stance, lich form, etc.

Might is extremely good even in 1v1. The might nerf was needed because too many classes were stacking it and becoming close to god mode against non meta builds.

For vigor we have the same issue as might had. Look how almost all meta builds have very high vigor uptime from passive minor or adept traits.

meta d/d cele has perma vigor
meta mes has 50%+ vigor uptime
meta engi has 50% vigor uptime
thief has about 50% vigor uptime
medi guard has 50% vigor uptime
shoutbow has perma vigor

Only class that doesn’t have vigor is necro and this forces them to use sigil of energy. The boon itself is so strong that almost all meta builds have it up at least 50% of the time. This is pigeonholing the build variaty. Forcing players to spend traits in te must have trait line to obtain vigor.

the thing is, all those vigor traits are adept level. its not really a problem to splash into a trait line for 1-2 points, because you can still take 2 6’s or a 6 + 4 in other lines. there arent many offensive traits worth splashing for, most of those get locked into master/grandmaster because theyre problematic when theyre at adept (like engi’s IP). so we cover our dodging with adept traits and use offensive sigils.

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, after some thought I have an alternative suggestion:

Don’t allow for 2 sigils of the same type to be on one weapon. This means no Air/Fire, no Energy/Doom/Geo/Hydro/etc.

You could still have the same sigils, but they would have to be on two separate sets. It would avoid those crazy damage spikes or suddenly being hit with several damaging condis at once.

Some may dislike the loss of choice, but don’t forget that at launch it seemed that sigils were designed around certain combinations not being possible.

It wasn’t that long ago that this was basically the case and it was changed to be the way it currently is. The current setup is much better.

From reading this thread, I’m getting that:

1. Doom is in a fair place. It’s the meta that makes it strong.
2. Fire and Air are too strong, but some think that some builds need it to stay viable (S/D Thief)
   1. Is this really true? It’s easy to test this. Someone who plays S/D thief, try running with some other sigil besides fire/air or air/blood.
3. Energy is in a decent place when on classes that need it, but a bit much on builds that take it for crazy amounts of defense.

Any disagreement here?

@The Gates Assassin.9827

1) Still think doom needs a smal nerf in duration or make it proc on hit/crit instead of on swap.
2)agreed, they are too strong

3)I think quite the opposite. On very defensive builds it is ok. If they are already defensive 1 extra dodge won’t change much. The problem is the extra survivability it gives to some heavy offensive builds that spec nothing in defense but the sigil +vigor covers that.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Simon.3794:

and people saying on crit sigils should be brought down, i mean, it’s not the sigils.
it’s thief and mesmers…

just like it’s not might.
it’s engis and eles

I say just add more on-hit sigils than changing the crit ones. More variety is better and it gives a unique value to precision. (and fury)

Precision and fury already have a unique value in the form of on crit traits and greater DPS. Those are far easier to balance as they sit in a more controlled design space, where as sigils do not. Those sigils don’t add variety at all, and in fact they actively decrease variety by requiring builds that want to utilize them to emphasize critical hits in ways that may not be internally consistant with their class design simply to be able to use a crucial sigil.

Contrast this with all other sigils, which are universally applicable regardless of build. Sure, you might not want to put a + bleed duration sigil on a build without bleeds, but your build does not directly control the access to the sigil’s effects. Crit sigils require, rather than incentivize over-reliance on a particular stat setup because of the double-rolling nature of first having to crit, and then having to roll the dice on the sigil, making them completely unreliable and unusable unless your build includes an inordinately high amount of crit chance.

An on hit sigil is universally accessible to all builds, despite not being overly useful to some and an on-crit sigil is not. In a combat system which prizes active defenses and a lack of passive defenses, and a lack of randomness influencing the outcome of battles, crit sigils are design anomalies that work against rather than in favor of the overall design of the combat system, and the potential for build variety.

PopeUrban.2578:

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Simon.3794:

and people saying on crit sigils should be brought down, i mean, it’s not the sigils.
it’s thief and mesmers…

just like it’s not might.
it’s engis and eles

I say just add more on-hit sigils than changing the crit ones. More variety is better and it gives a unique value to precision. (and fury)

Precision and fury already have a unique value in the form of on crit traits and greater DPS. Those are far easier to balance as they sit in a more controlled design space, where as sigils do not. Those sigils don’t add variety at all, and in fact they actively decrease variety by requiring builds that want to utilize them to emphasize critical hits in ways that may not be internally consistant with their class design simply to be able to use a crucial sigil.

Contrast this with all other sigils, which are universally applicable regardless of build. Sure, you might not want to put a + bleed duration sigil on a build without bleeds, but your build does not directly control the access to the sigil’s effects. Crit sigils require, rather than incentivize over-reliance on a particular stat setup because of the double-rolling nature of first having to crit, and then having to roll the dice on the sigil, making them completely unreliable and unusable unless your build includes an inordinately high amount of crit chance.

An on hit sigil is universally accessible to all builds, despite not being overly useful to some and an on-crit build is not. In a combat system which prizes active defenses and a lack of passive defenses, and a lack of randomness influencing the outcome of battles, crit sigils are design anomalies that work against rather than in favor of the overall design of the combat system, and the potential for build variety.

^ THIS

PopeUrban.2578:

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Simon.3794:

and people saying on crit sigils should be brought down, i mean, it’s not the sigils.
it’s thief and mesmers…

just like it’s not might.
it’s engis and eles

I say just add more on-hit sigils than changing the crit ones. More variety is better and it gives a unique value to precision. (and fury)

Precision and fury already have a unique value in the form of on crit traits and greater DPS. Those are far easier to balance as they sit in a more controlled design space, where as sigils do not. Those sigils don’t add variety at all, and in fact they actively decrease variety by requiring builds that want to utilize them to emphasize critical hits in ways that may not be internally consistant with their class design simply to be able to use a crucial sigil.

Contrast this with all other sigils, which are universally applicable regardless of build. Sure, you might not want to put a + bleed duration sigil on a build without bleeds, but your build does not directly control the access to the sigil’s effects. Crit sigils require, rather than incentivize over-reliance on a particular stat setup because of the double-rolling nature of first having to crit, and then having to roll the dice on the sigil, making them completely unreliable and unusable unless your build includes an inordinately high amount of crit chance.

An on hit sigil is universally accessible to all builds, despite not being overly useful to some and an on-crit sigil is not. In a combat system which prizes active defenses and a lack of passive defenses, and a lack of randomness influencing the outcome of battles, crit sigils are design anomalies that work against rather than in favor of the overall design of the combat system, and the potential for build variety.

This is interesting. Let’s take an example though. Let’s say Sigil of Fire was turned into an on hit sigil. It would need to be nerfed in some way to allow for this extra power (less dice rolling):

1. Reduce the damage
2. Increase the recharge
3. Reduce the chance to proc.

I definitely don’t like #3 or #1, so #2 sounds like the most viable version.

1. If it went to like 10-15 seconds, do you think it’d still be taken?
2. Would it break anything to let basically any build regardless of crit chance take a fire sigil?
3. What about other crit sigils like nullification, generosity or blood? I could see nullification or generosity being pretty good on some builds. Especially Purity + Generosity on a support/bunker build. Even maybe just the defensive set of an offensive build.