Guild Wars 2

Just as a preface these are directed towards the PvP devs…

1) What was the deciding factor for using a pip range of 15 for matching, and how does reducing/increasing the range effect matching and queue times?

2) Some what related to the first question, do you believe allowing cross divisional match-ups with the in-place safety nets between divisions fair for both sides (sapp v ruby etc…)?

3) Have you guys entertained the idea of more temporary safety nets between divisions, i.e. if at 0 pips you can lose X number of matches before being dropped back down to the previous division?

4) How would restricting matches to be within the players division only effect the system?

5) Will you continue to use both MMR and Pip range to create match-ups?

6) Are we going to see another big change to match making before S3, small ones, or no change at all?

There has been quite a lot of discussion about the league system, as well as the overhaul from s1 to s2, and I still question if people can seriously call it a competitive ladder. Legendary prestige ranks are more a grind than anything else, and divisions themselves are no different when there is no risk to drop down. I feel like the answers to the questions above may address some of these issues; while these are issues specific to me, many others may share a similar opinion.

*looks around for Evan >_> …. <_<

Dear Evan;

The Pip system is more of a grind and luck rather than skills. To seriously develop PvP, the concerned team needs to understand that PvP is not a solo game rather a team game and that is how it should be played. Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

Seasons so far have resulted in matching solo players against full teams and there most of the time, the team compositions decides the game even before the start of it. Therefore, establishing the simple rule of players playing PvP have to enter in a team of five will solve all the above problems, because people will form teams and use class combinations accordingly besides, players will team up with players as per their skill sets.

Please think about it and hopefully try implementing the same. You will see that PvP experience for the most of regular PvPers will drastically improve and become enjoyable.

Lastly, please remove PvE loots from PvP or at least from Ranked games. This will help keep PvE players away from destroying Ranked games and improving overall experience for all.

Regards

Dr. Sunny Dg aka Eagleseye

Eagelseye.6312:

Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

If this happened, RIP PvP population.

Ubik.8315:

Eagelseye.6312:

Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

If this happened, RIP PvP population.

Certainly not, rather it would make PvP actual a team game which it should be in true sense

Evan Lesh.3295:

6) There will be matchmaking changes that strike a balance between season 1 and 2.

Oh, this sounds exciting. I think that could really work out well. Is this balance going to reduce the likelihood of picking up a negative/positive momentum and going on long loss/win streaks?

Eagelseye.6312:

Ubik.8315:

Eagelseye.6312:

Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

If this happened, RIP PvP population.

Certainly not, rather it would make PvP actual a team game which it should be in true sense

Not necessarily. Atleast for me it would kill any desire to PvP. Im a solo player at heart. And while I have entertained the thought of fighting as a team. And even have joined a couple. Ultimately my playstyle works best when I am self reliant. And I contribute more to the match when I am not worrying about what my team mates expect from me in each individual fight.

Which means the number of parties I can join is MINIMAL as the likelyhood of there existing a team where I can maintain my playstyle and level of effectiveness is almost zero due to how the GW2 combat system works and what teams in gw2 expect from certain classes and builds.

So for me atleast. The removal of solo que WOULD infact signal the end of PvP for me. And likely signal the start of a large reduction in the time I spend in GW2. Ultimately leading to me finding a game where I am not restrained simply because I don’t want to be chained entirely to the expectaions of others in HOW I do my job.

If the GW2 community ever becomes results driven (That it was accomplished is all that matters not HOW it was accomplished) instead of mechanics driven (How you do something is more important that succeeding). Then it might be okay for me.

But that isn’t going to happen.

Evan Lesh.3295:

1) 15 was a good number to use for all divisions such that you can’t matchmake on either side of an entire division. We have the ability to control where this number starts, and how long it takes to expand to a stopping point to ensure certain worst-case matchmaking times.

2) This is fair because there isn’t an MMR jump when you cross division boundaries.

3) We have not considered this. It’s also more complex that just losing divisions.

4) Player’s would get an mmr relative to their division that would all of a sudden be inaccurate when/if they cross divisions.

5) Yes

6) There will be matchmaking changes that strike a balance between season 1 and 2.

Thanks for the reply!

Looking forward to less blowout matches this season, I hope you guys can pull it off otherwise I think I’ll throw in the towel.

Just one more thing concerning question 3. Have any ideas of removing safety nets between divisions been entertained in the studio?

And also, can you please cap the number of legendaries to 50, thanks.

Eagelseye.6312:

Ubik.8315:

Eagelseye.6312:

Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

If this happened, RIP PvP population.

Certainly not, rather it would make PvP actual a team game which it should be in true sense

False, every other team game in the world allows you to enter as a solo player.

What you mean to be asking for is in-game, automated tournaments, because you need a system that supports the entire population, not just the 30-40 people that are online and have the time to make and coordinate a team.

The idea is to remove barriers of entry and increase the accuracy of sorting and ranking algorithms, not increase the barrier of entry to the point where it effectively kills off 99% of the population of players while dissuading new players for entering.

Ingame automated tournies please

Otherwise, could we see some actual numbers on how many players reached legendary before critizing that every casual reached it?
My guess is top10% aka 5.000 ppl per region

Evan Lesh.3295:

6) There will be matchmaking changes that strike a balance between season 1 and 2.

So season 3 will be another smurf fest? Have you given up any hope of increasing the pvp population with new players? Considering most of the forum have admitted to having multiple accounts, being smurfed over and over won’t attract anyone.

Also how will this affect matches outside of primetime?

Continuing to use both PIP + MMR is going to be yet another epic fail, leading to countless of pointless blowout matches + MMR hell for some. You should either use random selection within PIP range or MMR only for balanced matches. The player base is way too small to make anything else work. Also the current scoring which rewards 499-500 and 0-500 loss the same amount of PIPs is a fail, because it leads to many players quit after just 100-150 point loss at start. Season 1 had problems, but had way better scoring system.

Thank you for the reply, Evan Leash! Goodbye and I wish you luck the decisions you made!

Shadelang.3012:

Eagelseye.6312:

Ubik.8315:

Eagelseye.6312:

Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

If this happened, RIP PvP population.

Certainly not, rather it would make PvP actual a team game which it should be in true sense

Not necessarily. Atleast for me it would kill any desire to PvP. Im a solo player at heart. And while I have entertained the thought of fighting as a team. And even have joined a couple. Ultimately my playstyle works best when I am self reliant. And I contribute more to the match when I am not worrying about what my team mates expect from me in each individual fight.

Which means the number of parties I can join is MINIMAL as the likelyhood of there existing a team where I can maintain my playstyle and level of effectiveness is almost zero due to how the GW2 combat system works and what teams in gw2 expect from certain classes and builds.

So for me atleast. The removal of solo que WOULD infact signal the end of PvP for me. And likely signal the start of a large reduction in the time I spend in GW2. Ultimately leading to me finding a game where I am not restrained simply because I don’t want to be chained entirely to the expectaions of others in HOW I do my job.

If the GW2 community ever becomes results driven (That it was accomplished is all that matters not HOW it was accomplished) instead of mechanics driven (How you do something is more important that succeeding). Then it might be okay for me.

But that isn’t going to happen.

See I understand your point and I am sure there would be a lot more players who would think the same. However you need to understand that PvP is a team game at the end and as your statement says, that you want to play as you want rather than what your team wants, eventually fails the entire concept. Also saying that a competitive game mode should not be result driven is contradictory in itself. What else should it be driven otherwise!?

Having said that, the game has Unranked system where there is no need for teaming up and you can enjoy your mechanics and not care about the results. For Ranked games, it has to and should be a team game in true sense.

jcbroe.4329:

Eagelseye.6312:

Ubik.8315:

Eagelseye.6312:

Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

If this happened, RIP PvP population.

Certainly not, rather it would make PvP actual a team game which it should be in true sense

False, every other team game in the world allows you to enter as a solo player.

What you mean to be asking for is in-game, automated tournaments, because you need a system that supports the entire population, not just the 30-40 people that are online and have the time to make and coordinate a team.

The idea is to remove barriers of entry and increase the accuracy of sorting and ranking algorithms, not increase the barrier of entry to the point where it effectively kills off 99% of the population of players while dissuading new players for entering.

Well your point is certainly valid where Anet’s PvP development team certainly needs to work on improving the algorithms of sorting and ranking, but at the same time, they have to work towards the direction where a game mode is being played as it should be as such. If soloQ is removed, it will better the entire community of true PvPers actually. Because see, there is a very simple example, a player can be kicked from a Dungeon party if he/she is not doing well or a player can leave a party if that party is bad etc. But the same is not possible in PvP as its a competitive mode and people will end of losing pips/tiers etc. and remain in a win/lose cycle because they are bound/forced to play with players who wants to do what they want rather than what the team wants! That is not what a 5v5 or 10v10 game mode should be, isnt it?

Having said, that Anet can think of developing different modes where people can just simply 1v1 or max 2v2 and be happy and no bothering playing in teams.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Continuing to use both PIP + MMR is going to be yet another epic fail, leading to countless of pointless blowout matches + MMR hell for some. You should either use random selection within PIP range or MMR only for balanced matches. The player base is way too small to make anything else work. Also the current scoring which rewards 499-500 and 0-500 loss the same amount of PIPs is a fail, because it leads to many players quit after just 100-150 point loss at start. Season 1 had problems, but had way better scoring system.

Thank you for the reply, Evan Leash! Goodbye and I wish you luck the decisions you made!

+1000

Eagelseye.6312:

jcbroe.4329:

Eagelseye.6312:

Ubik.8315:

Eagelseye.6312:

Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

If this happened, RIP PvP population.

Certainly not, rather it would make PvP actual a team game which it should be in true sense

False, every other team game in the world allows you to enter as a solo player.

What you mean to be asking for is in-game, automated tournaments, because you need a system that supports the entire population, not just the 30-40 people that are online and have the time to make and coordinate a team.

The idea is to remove barriers of entry and increase the accuracy of sorting and ranking algorithms, not increase the barrier of entry to the point where it effectively kills off 99% of the population of players while dissuading new players for entering.

Well your point is certainly valid where Anet’s PvP development team certainly needs to work on improving the algorithms of sorting and ranking, but at the same time, they have to work towards the direction where a game mode is being played as it should be as such. If soloQ is removed, it will better the entire community of true PvPers actually. Because see, there is a very simple example, a player can be kicked from a Dungeon party if he/she is not doing well or a player can leave a party if that party is bad etc. But the same is not possible in PvP as its a competitive mode and people will end of losing pips/tiers etc. and remain in a win/lose cycle because they are bound/forced to play with players who wants to do what they want rather than what the team wants! That is not what a 5v5 or 10v10 game mode should be, isnt it?

Having said, that Anet can think of developing different modes where people can just simply 1v1 or max 2v2 and be happy and no bothering playing in teams.

Every MOBA, all of the new shooters, and every objective based shooter, and really every game with a competitive multiplayer work to disprove what you are arguing though.

GW2 doesn’t fail at making a competitive atmosphere because the game isn’t competitive, it’s because the infrastructure doesn’t, and has NEVER supported it.

When the game first launched, TONS of GW1 pros were forming up and trying to make the game a competitive esport. But the game lacked spectator modes, custom arenas for community tournaments, and balance.

Leaderboards were bad and failed, balance has never been correctly adjusted for competitive play, and the league system is just a fancier reward track with a few more bells and whistles.

The things that a community of competitive players want the most are a game balanced for skill, and an infrastructure that allows them to win their way to the top of an actual MMR and rating based system, and then be additionally rewarded for being the best, and a way to show all of this off as bragging rights.

ANet, on the other hand, coddles their players with safety nets during the competitive PvP season, which artificially inflates their division tier over time, making it a meaningless tool to the community of competitive players.

But, that isn’t to say that I don’t agree with the core of your sentiment; that the MMR system doesn’t account for the size of the party or the performance of the individual player, and only uses a win/loss as input to their MMR system, which is wrong.

What we should be asking for is a more advanced MMR system that gathers metrics from the game data and uses them to rate each individual player on their performance in a match and adjust their MMR appropriately, with a true MMR matchmaking that doesn’t disallow regression (aka no safety nets) and a reward system that gives more rewards the higher they are rated and winning at that rating. Many of the types of games I mentioned do this in their competitive queue modes, which is why their competitive community is larger and more successful than GW2 is and more than likely ever will be.

I again agree to your point where the PvP development team certainly needs to work on the MMR system appropriately. If they do, this will address a lot of issues, however in addition to this, they need to prevent individual players who don’t care about the teammates and want to play as they themselves wish to do from destroying the core essence of team play. If it is a 5v5 mode, the entry needs to be in that mode only as a “team” rather than bunch of individuals who are clueless about others.

If Anet implements this and simultaneously work on the MMR system then we all will see, how enjoyable the PvP experience becomes as such.

They have worked a ton on the matchmaking believe it or not and I don’t see any magic bullets coming in that direction. I am sure they can improve it some but there will no magical revelations from heaven imo. I bad mouth these guys a lot but they are actually pretty smart people and have been working on this for quite awhile now. The answer to me is stuff like allowing people to lose divisions. They need to decide whether they want leagues to actually be really competitive and a reflection of skill or not. The problem is there are a lot of people that think advancement in a league should be mostly grindable and it a significant number and A-net doesn’t want to kitten them off. As long as there are competiting interests its not going to be a good system. A-net needs to decide whether the goal is to make this as competitive and accurate as possible or allow the greatest ammount of people feel like they can advance to ruby and beyond.

brannigan.9831:

They have worked a ton on the matchmaking believe it or not and I don’t see any magic bullets coming in that direction. I am sure they can improve it some but there will no magical revelations from heaven imo. I bad mouth these guys a lot but they are actually pretty smart people and have been working on this for quite awhile now. The answer to me is stuff like allowing people to lose divisions. They need to decide whether they want leagues to actually be really competitive and a reflection of skill or not. The problem is there are a lot of people that think advancement in a league should be mostly grindable and it a significant number and A-net doesn’t want to kitten them off. As long as there are competiting interests its not going to be a good system. A-net needs to decide whether the goal is to make this as competitive and accurate as possible or allow the greatest ammount of people feel like they can advance to ruby and beyond.

It’s pretty simple, the reward system needs to be separated from the Division system. Then, we can remove the pips, insert the MMR and rating system that a true competitive game should have, and have a competitive reward track active, and then ANet can get really cheeky and add a renewing “achievement” that increments for every reward track completion (like the new dungeon achievement) and gives out respectable rewards for completion.

Or, they could go back to the old glory system in place of the aforementioned reward track system, where playing matches rewards you with a PvP specific currency that can be used at the vendor, and then split the rating thresholds into brackets and give people exclusive rewards from higher brackets using the new currency (with a general inventory for the currency ofc).

Deniara Devious.3948:

Continuing to use both PIP + MMR is going to be yet another epic fail, leading to countless of pointless blowout matches + MMR hell for some. You should either use random selection within PIP range or MMR only for balanced matches. The player base is way too small to make anything else work. Also the current scoring which rewards 499-500 and 0-500 loss the same amount of PIPs is a fail, because it leads to many players quit after just 100-150 point loss at start. Season 1 had problems, but had way better scoring system.

Thank you for the reply, Evan Leash! Goodbye and I wish you luck the decisions you made!

+1

The developers definitely need to work towards a direction where people play Ranked only for the love of Ranked system and specific honours associated with it and participate in it as a team member rather than a solo hero who cares less about the team. Anet need to take away any sort of PvE achievement from Ranked games and keep the reward tracks only for Unrankeds. This will hugely benefit the PvP community, without harming PvEers at all.

jessiestiles.9437:

Evan Lesh.3295:

6) There will be matchmaking changes that strike a balance between season 1 and 2.

So season 3 will be another smurf fest? Have you given up any hope of increasing the pvp population with new players? Considering most of the forum have admitted to having multiple accounts, being smurfed over and over won’t attract anyone.

Also how will this affect matches outside of primetime?

This is what I’ve been trying to say, but you say it better. Why do they listen to the few people talking on forums using more than 1 account to talk on here also just to make it look like a lot more people than it actually is and give them everything they ask for while destroying a lot of other people’s gaming experience. And considering how much better pvp was in the beginning compared to now I’d say it’s been going on for quite some time. If you guys want a REAL idea of what people want why not do an in game poll/survey type thing. Not many people go to forums and such. And when most people get upset over changes that cause them to no longer enjoy the game they don’t complain about it they just quit and find something better to do.

Eagelseye.6312:

Dear Evan;

The Pip system is more of a grind and luck rather than skills. To seriously develop PvP, the concerned team needs to understand that PvP is not a solo game rather a team game and that is how it should be played. Therefore, you need to remove solo queue. Players who wish to play PvP have to enter in a team of five as premades. You may keep entering in team of two and three but then the matchmaking needs to be that such teams don’t meet a full premade.

Seasons so far have resulted in matching solo players against full teams and there most of the time, the team compositions decides the game even before the start of it. Therefore, establishing the simple rule of players playing PvP have to enter in a team of five will solve all the above problems, because people will form teams and use class combinations accordingly besides, players will team up with players as per their skill sets.

Please think about it and hopefully try implementing the same. You will see that PvP experience for the most of regular PvPers will drastically improve and become enjoyable.

Lastly, please remove PvE loots from PvP or at least from Ranked games. This will help keep PvE players away from destroying Ranked games and improving overall experience for all.

Regards

Dr. Sunny Dg aka Eagleseye

I’ve never read a long post where I disagree with everything written. That all changed today.

Ellie.5913:

jessiestiles.9437:

Evan Lesh.3295:

6) There will be matchmaking changes that strike a balance between season 1 and 2.

So season 3 will be another smurf fest? Have you given up any hope of increasing the pvp population with new players? Considering most of the forum have admitted to having multiple accounts, being smurfed over and over won’t attract anyone.

Also how will this affect matches outside of primetime?

This is what I’ve been trying to say, but you say it better. Why do they listen to the few people talking on forums using more than 1 account to talk on here also just to make it look like a lot more people than it actually is and give them everything they ask for while destroying a lot of other people’s gaming experience. And considering how much better pvp was in the beginning compared to now I’d say it’s been going on for quite some time. If you guys want a REAL idea of what people want why not do an in game poll/survey type thing. Not many people go to forums and such. And when most people get upset over changes that cause them to no longer enjoy the game they don’t complain about it they just quit and find something better to do.

They did listen. Which is why they are trying to appear like they are trying to compromise, but I think they’re out of touch. People are reluctant to PvP because it can be stressful for a number of reasons. This is compounded because depending on the time of day you can be matched up with premades over and over who just want to farm pugs. So they make these improvements to attract people then ignore the reason why someone would want to do it in the first place. Surveys would probably help.

There were loads of people complaining about matchmaking at the start of the season. Not to upset anyone, of course, just to express their opinion. The response was “the problem doesn’t exist. you suck trashy noob”. I haven’t seen a lot of them post for weeks. So you’re right there is a niche voice on the forum.

Also some of the devs are former pro players and are still thick as thieves. That’s another conflict of interest.

Yea I know. I did a whole thread about premade vs pug, but tbh I don’t even complain that much about premade vs pug in unranked anymore after I experienced the match ups in ranked in S2… Seems things just go farther and farther downhill with each “update” I don’t even take pvp seriously anymore how can anyone.