A Rational Balance Thread
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Guardian: 7
The guardian is the flagship “bunker” role for a tournament team. I would say over 95% of teams run a defensive guardian on their team, whose sole goal is to sit on a point and keep it. They certainly excel at this role, and their ability to apply both retaliation and stability in an AoE make them super team fighters. However with the change to Tome of Courage, they are no longer able to win every team fight with the AoE full heal. Right now every team runs with a Guardian because they’re used to having one on the team, but I can see in the future a Guardian not necessarily being necessary. Hence the rating of 7.
Warrior: 4
I personally think the Warrior is the weakest tournament profession in the game right now, at least as a damage role. For a defensive role, a hammer Warrior shows some promise, but fails to bring the sustain of an Elementalist or a Guardian (even with shout heals). But back to a damage/roaming Warrior, their damage is far too predictable to be relied on in combat. And, unlike thieves, Warriors are unable to vanish when their burst skills are on cooldown. However, I have seen some promising axe builds not revolving around the greatsword, so hopefully the Warrior will learn some new tricks in the next few weeks.
Ranger: 5
Rangers are in a good spot right now. They have the ability to be high sustain damage or incredibly bursty. In fact they are the only profession that has reliable damage output. They have options for stability, mobility, and cc as well. Overall a versatile class, but lacking the exploitable mechanics to put them over the edge damage-wise. The pets are still slightly unresponsive, but much better than in the betas. Rangers are weak to thieves in a 1v1, but other than that can hold their own as any damage-based role on a team.
Engineer: 6
Most teams are running Engineers now, and for good reason. They feature good, sustained AoE damage, excellent knockbacks, and even high burst damage builds. Many options for swiftness make them excellent roamers. Some teams run Engineers as point defense, which I don’t think is better than a Guardian or an Elementalist, but still is viable. Also the Engineer Supply Crate is one of the better elite skills in the game. There are many different ways to play an Engineer with great success in tournaments right now.
Thief: 5
While Thief may be overpowered in 8v8s, they find an unusual role in tournament teams. Against some compositions, a Thief really shines. For example, I was watching a glass cannon Mesmer’s stream (professional level player) literally get 2 shot by a thief (12k backstab, 6k steal). However, against teams that run condition damage and toughness, a Thief may be next to useless. I know that on my condition damage Engineer, a Thief has no way to instantly kill me. In a sustained fight Thieves are quite weak. Overall, I think Thief is a niche pick based on your composition. They are strong, but once teams learn to counter them, they are balanced in 5v5.
Elementalist: 5
Had the Staff Elementalist build not been discovered a few days ago, I would have had Elementalist as the weakest current profession. However Elementalists have found a really nice role as a defensive/support role. It excels at roles like defending points 1v2 while waiting for help to arrive, killing enemy trebuchets without the opposition being able to do anything about it, and stability stomping. They are very strong on Khylo. On a side note I think that Scepter/dagger or dagger/dagger is not as strong as other roamers like Rangers, Thieves, or Engineers, but still viable.
Mesmer: 8
You’ll see pretty much every team run with a Mesmer currently. They are nearly unbeatable 1v1 (currently only Staff Ele or Trap Ranger can beat them somewhat consistently), and have so many different mechanics all within the same build. This includes stealth, blink, daze, invulnerability, target dropping, quickness, immobilize. Portal allows Mesmers to defend 2 points at once, with the team in tow. For the most part Mesmers have so much mitigation spells that they can afford to run glass cannon and get away from it. Mesmers excel at almost every role in the game.
Necromancer: 4
Honestly the Necromancer would have received a 5 had it not been for all the bugs in their current state. The Necromancer is one of the most difficult professions in the game, as well as one of the most underrated. While they have little option for power-based builds, they excel at condition control. Running on a condition-based team, the Necromancer is devastating. Overall, the Necromancer could use a little bit of love, but is still completely viable in competitive play.
Feel free to tell me what you think. I’ll try to keep up with this thread as best as I can.
I think you are pretty much accurate about everything. I’d rate thieves 6 though.
I play necro as main, have done through-out all betas. You say condition control, and hint towards epidemic, which imo (and quite a few others) is a trash skill, and incredibly over-rated. Necro can get upto around 17 staks of bleed at a peak, and then maintain around 10-12. Compare this to rangers/thieves who can stack 20+ in a few seconds while also doing decent raw damage. However much I want to, I cannot see any role for a necro in the current meta, they offer nothing another class doesn’t do better.
I do agree that thieves aren’t as good as a lot of people seem to think, and they do get wrecked by condition damage, as they lack decent removal. However, I do feel as if they need a complete rework, as inititive is one of the worst class mechanics I’ve seen, all it does is promotes pub stomping, by spamming the same 1-2 skills a seemingly endless amount of times with absolutely no conseques for bad plays.
I play necro as main, have done through-out all betas. You say condition control, and hint towards epidemic, which imo (and quite a few others) is a trash skill, and incredibly over-rated. Necro can get upto around 17 staks of bleed at a peak, and then maintain around 10-12. Compare this to rangers/thieves who can stack 20+ in a few seconds while also doing decent raw damage. However much I want to, I cannot see any role for a necro in the current meta, they offer nothing another class doesn’t do better.
The idea is that the necro is never alone. Paired with a bleedstack ranger and an engineer, you’ll spread 25stacks of bleeding, ~10 stacks of vulnerability, poison, and burning. Pretty good if you ask me. The necro’s role is a defensive roamer.
EDIT: However, you can always switch utilities if you find yourself in a 1v1 scenario.
You’ll hardly ever be able to spread the conditions, at least not in tornament play. Most fights will be 2vs2, and unless the 2 you are facing are both melee (which is very unlikely), or thye are very bad at positioning, the chances of hitting your epidemic are very slim.
I’m curious about the thief damage you mentioned. How does a thief get his steal to do 6k damage? I do about 1k last time I checked, and I try to maximize crit dmg, power and prec. Could be wrong about the numbers, but 6k is insane even if you stack as many buffs as you can. I suppose the max might amount is 8 (from venom + active sigil)
I am surprised you think mesmers are an 8. I agree they are somewhat OP, but there are definitely ways to counter them depending on their build. I wouldn’t place them higher than guardians myself, but I haven’t played guardians myself to judge accurately.
I play necro as main, have done through-out all betas. You say condition control, and hint towards epidemic, which imo (and quite a few others) is a trash skill, and incredibly over-rated. Necro can get upto around 17 staks of bleed at a peak, and then maintain around 10-12. Compare this to rangers/thieves who can stack 20+ in a few seconds while also doing decent raw damage. However much I want to, I cannot see any role for a necro in the current meta, they offer nothing another class doesn’t do better.
You’ve been playing necro for that long, and still haven’t discovered there are more to us than epidemic and bleed stacks? As far as condition/boon control goes we can: AoE remove 3 boons on a low cooldown, turn boons into conditions, then spread then to everyone(especially helpful against guardians) send our conditions away,(and when its fixed, remove then from allies consistently) and more.
The main niche I see for necro right now is shutting down guardian. Which in the current meta with every single team running a guardian isn’t all that bad. But what makes it problematic is although you can shut down a guardian very well, solo you can’t really kill them. I mean you can but it takes long enough that you can’t do it before they get backup. Meaning you are only really useful running with another class who can do the dps to bring down the guardian while you neutralize them.
Conditionmancer right now weak in 1v1 because it only has access to one damaging condition. Necro really needs access to either burning or confusion as well to make it decent at anything besides shutting down guardians in a group situation.
The main niche I see for necro right now is shutting down guardian. Which in the current meta with every single team running a guardian isn’t all that bad. But what makes it problematic is although you can shut down a guardian very well, solo you can’t really kill them. I mean you can but it takes long enough that you can’t do it before they get backup. Meaning you are only really useful running with another class who can do the dps to bring down the guardian while you neutralize them.
Conditionmancer right now weak in 1v1 because it only has access to one damaging condition. Necro really needs access to either burning or confusion as well to make it decent at anything besides shutting down guardians in a group situation.
I do agree we need one more damage condition, perhaps traitable within the condition dmg tree.confusion would be awesome for a conditionmencer playstyle.
I have a thread in the necro forums about it. I would learn towards burning instead though because conditionmancer’s problems are 1v1 not group. Confusion as a practical matter never reaches max stacks so if you gave confusion to condimancer it would probably be too powerful in group play. Burning on the other hand does awesome 1v1 damage but stacks duration instead of strength, therefore making it less of a group balance issue since you may already have it.
In terms of what conditionmancer really needs burning seems like a better fit.
I mained a Necro for a long time in tPvP and have then went on try out all other classes except the Elementalist, currently dabbling with venom share thieves right now.
The reason Necros are more limited in their damaging condition effects is because they’re supposed to use their foe’s conditions against them, that’s the appeal. It sounds great ideally and on paper but what happens in actual play is that you’ll struggle against most condition resilient specs, need to work really hard to keep up the race against burst specs and do really well against condition specs that are weak in removals (not that many). The design of the playstyle also entails that you put yourself a lot more in harms way before you do anything meaningful. It’s great when all the stars align, but it’s also why things don’t always go as planned. The bugs surrounding Plague Signet and Corrupt Boon also hurts the Necromancer a lot in tPvP setting.
Not denying that Necromancers have a niche against Guardians, but I do think a Staff Sharper Images Mesmer with Rabid Amulet can perform the same role and better being viable when needing to carry things out solo, something the Necro is more weak on. Compounding a Mesmer with another class in team engagements is also not a bad thing, Time Warp, Null Field and more utility overall makes for a strong class in tPvP. If you pick up Arcane Thievery, you can also somewhat mimic the Necromancer’s playtyle in countering other condition builds as well.
As of right now, if not a Necromancer, a good Mesmer spamming conditions can really give Guardians hell. Additionally, the ease of kiting Mesmers have inherently also gives them an edge over the slightly more melee-centric Guardian. It’s also much easier to fill a slot with a Mesmer as I feel unless you’re tailoring the team more around the Necromancer, it does not perform as well.
That’s why I’ve been using the Mesmer in lieu of the Necro in tPvP these days.
Thieves while packing really strong burst are easily overwhelmed by conditions relative to most classes. I find that a lot of complaints stems from glass cannons getting destroyed by other glass cannon thieves in sPvP. Venomshare is still extremely powerful in tPvP setting though. But it seems that if you know the thief’s tricks and can survive their initial burst, it’s very possible to send them running or back to their spawn.
Thanks for the thoughtful responses everyone! To respond to this:
You’ll hardly ever be able to spread the conditions, at least not in tornament play. Most fights will be 2vs2, and unless the 2 you are facing are both melee (which is very unlikely), or thye are very bad at positioning, the chances of hitting your epidemic are very slim.
I’m going to respectfully disagree with this. The way to conquest is set up, there will always be people on the point, trying to neutralize or prevent from being neutralized. The only exception really is Ranger. Epidemic has a rather large range on its spread, I think Necro is quite good in a 2v2 scenario.
Hammer can’t sustain? More like you fail to build a Warrior correctly whether its offensive-wise or defensive-wise, no offense. Would be nice if GW2 made a legit ELO system where it actually shows player skill. Then we’ll know whether whatever the guy is saying is legit.
P.S Just shows, everyone who calls Warrior a bad class have 3 simple trends going on for them.
1.) They do not have the decency to get good at this game.
2.) They probably don’t even play Warrior, yet they are still talking. Like just because you get wrecked by Thief 24/7, doesn’t mean Roam Warrior is worse than Thief. Seriously I bet this guy doesn’t know how to combo HB without Bulls Charge.
3.) They have zero clue on how to build. Bunker Warrior can’t sustain LMAO, just proves my point. Its a learn to play issue.
Keep talking though, I’d like to see Warrior get buffed. And then nerfed because that’s how this community is.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
Hammer can’t sustain? More like you fail to build a Warrior correctly whether its offensive-wise or defensive-wise, no offense. Would be nice if GW2 made a legit ELO system where it actually shows player skill. Then we’ll know whether whatever the guy is saying is legit.
P.S Just shows, everyone who calls Warrior a bad class have 3 simple trends going on for them.
1.) They do not have the decency to get good at this game.
2.) They probably don’t even play Warrior, yet they are still talking. Like just because you get wrecked by Thief 24/7, doesn’t mean Roam Warrior is worse than Thief. Seriously I bet this guy doesn’t know how to combo HB without Bulls Charge.
3.) They have zero clue on how to build. Bunker Warrior can’t sustain LMAO, just proves my point. Its a learn to play issue.Keep talking though, I’d like to see Warrior get buffed. And then nerfed because that’s how this community is.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when you do at least give me reasons why. You say bunker Warrior can sustain, but you don’t tell me why they can. Here’s why I think they are not as good as the other bunker professions:
1) No combo fields.
Combo fields, if only used by yourself, are an essential component to any bunker build. For a Guardian, it gives group retaliation, and for the Elementalist, it gives group healing, chill armor, and swiftness. You can also stack 25 stacks of might (with the help of your teammates) before the game to give that edge in the first team fight.
2) Lack of stability.
The best source of stability for the warrior is balanced state. But that only gives warriors themselves stability. Plus it’s on a 40 second cooldown, 10 seconds longer than a Guardian’s Stand Your Ground, which is a far better skill, applying both stability and retaliation in an AoE. While a staff Elementalist also does not have group stability, they still have an edge with 2 sources of stability for themselves without having to sacrifice a key spell (which you would have to do to get balanced state)
3) Subpar damage mitigation
Compared to an Elementalist or a Guardian, the Warrior doesn’t have nearly as many options to mitigate damage. They have no internal source of protection, a key defensive boon, while Elementalists and Guardians have easy access to it. On top of that, the only immunity spell that a Warrior has is endure pain, which, if you take, removes a key heal and condition removal from your arsenal. While some Guardian builds do have immunity, almost every guardian runs with Sanctuary, which is essentially 6 seconds of not being hit. Hammer warriors are easily taken down in a 1v2 situation.
But if you have a build to show me that rectifies these problems, or a playstyle that avoids these issues, by all means prove me wrong. But mudslinging won’t get you anywhere.
As for Warrior roaming, yes I have played it. First with Axe/Shield and Greatsword, then with Mace/Shield and Greatsword. Warriors don’t get beat by Thieves very often, I never said that. The problem with Warriors is that their damage is too predictable, and they have little ways to disengage. For a Thief, if he goes to neutralize an undefended node, and 2 people fall back to stop him, he can just stealth away, effectively deterring the enemy and reducing their points. However a Warrior would be forced to engage them and then die. Sure a Warrior may last a few seconds longer in combat, but does that make them a better roaming profession? In my opinion, no.
Okay, so are you using 30 points in toughness? Talking about the Roam Warrior part.
Also when I said Hammer Warrior can sustain, I did not mean use Hammer as a main weapon. You use Axe + Shield as a main weapon for that part. The role of what I’m talking about is most likely going to be a point holder. And mind you, they can follow up Roam ganks really well if played correctly.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
(edited by Schwahrheit.4203)
Hammer can’t sustain? More like you fail to build a Warrior correctly whether its offensive-wise or defensive-wise, no offense. Would be nice if GW2 made a legit ELO system where it actually shows player skill. Then we’ll know whether whatever the guy is saying is legit.
P.S Just shows, everyone who calls Warrior a bad class have 3 simple trends going on for them.
1.) They do not have the decency to get good at this game.
2.) They probably don’t even play Warrior, yet they are still talking. Like just because you get wrecked by Thief 24/7, doesn’t mean Roam Warrior is worse than Thief. Seriously I bet this guy doesn’t know how to combo HB without Bulls Charge.
3.) They have zero clue on how to build. Bunker Warrior can’t sustain LMAO, just proves my point. Its a learn to play issue.Keep talking though, I’d like to see Warrior get buffed. And then nerfed because that’s how this community is.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when you do at least give me reasons why. You say bunker Warrior can sustain, but you don’t tell me why they can. Here’s why I think they are not as good as the other bunker professions:
1) No combo fields.
Combo fields, if only used by yourself, are an essential component to any bunker build. For a Guardian, it gives group retaliation, and for the Elementalist, it gives group healing, chill armor, and swiftness. You can also stack 25 stacks of might (with the help of your teammates) before the game to give that edge in the first team fight.2) Lack of stability.
The best source of stability for the warrior is balanced state. But that only gives warriors themselves stability. Plus it’s on a 40 second cooldown, 10 seconds longer than a Guardian’s Stand Your Ground, which is a far better skill, applying both stability and retaliation in an AoE. While a staff Elementalist also does not have group stability, they still have an edge with 2 sources of stability for themselves without having to sacrifice a key spell (which you would have to do to get balanced state)3) Subpar damage mitigation
Compared to an Elementalist or a Guardian, the Warrior doesn’t have nearly as many options to mitigate damage. They have no internal source of protection, a key defensive boon, while Elementalists and Guardians have easy access to it. On top of that, the only immunity spell that a Warrior has is endure pain, which, if you take, removes a key heal and condition removal from your arsenal. While some Guardian builds do have immunity, almost every guardian runs with Sanctuary, which is essentially 6 seconds of not being hit. Hammer warriors are easily taken down in a 1v2 situation.But if you have a build to show me that rectifies these problems, or a playstyle that avoids these issues, by all means prove me wrong. But mudslinging won’t get you anywhere.
As for Warrior roaming, yes I have played it. First with Axe/Shield and Greatsword, then with Mace/Shield and Greatsword. Warriors don’t get beat by Thieves very often, I never said that. The problem with Warriors is that their damage is too predictable, and they have little ways to disengage. For a Thief, if he goes to neutralize an undefended node, and 2 people fall back to stop him, he can just stealth away, effectively deterring the enemy and reducing their points. However a Warrior would be forced to engage them and then die. Sure a Warrior may last a few seconds longer in combat, but does that make them a better roaming profession? In my opinion, no.
1) That’s true, they haven’t so much combo fields, just one with Longbow, but they have loads of combo finishers and combo finishers are way more useful than combo fields.
2) Warrior have an istant skill that grants stability, isn’t that enough? Again, I use Necomancers as example, they have no stability at all. The only stability they have is a 3 second stability when entering Death Shroud from a grandmaster trait of Soul Reaping.
3) Endure Pain is an awesome defensive skill some professions doesn’t even have one, also the Defense trait of Warrior is an awesome combo of Toughness and Healing power. Plus they have some blocking skills with their offhand weapons. I fell that stating that warrior defenses are subpar is pretty wrong.
Their combo field is amazing if you have a coordinated team. Just that I can’t see using Long Bow over Tanky DPS Warrior in holding points.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
1) That’s true, they haven’t so much combo fields, just one with Longbow, but they have loads of combo finishers and combo finishers are way more useful than combo fields.
2) Warrior have an istant skill that grants stability, isn’t that enough? Again, I use Necomancers as example, they have no stability at all. The only stability they have is a 3 second stability when entering Death Shroud from a grandmaster trait of Soul Reaping.
3) Endure Pain is an awesome defensive skill some professions doesn’t even have one, also the Defense trait of Warrior is an awesome combo of Toughness and Healing power. Plus they have some blocking skills with their offhand weapons. I fell that stating that warrior defenses are subpar is pretty wrong.
1) Actually Warriors only have 1 blast finisher, one whirl finisher, and 1 leap finisher, in addition to the fact that they put no combo fields down. Compare that to an Elementalist bunker who can put down multiple combo fields AND finish them multiple times. Even a Guardian can put down multiple fields and finish them. Either way combo finishers aren’t useful if you have no combo fields!
2) The problem with balanced state is that it’s not a shout. The best bunker build (IMO) uses shouts to heal. If you give up one of your core heals, there’s no way you’re going to last as long. And comparing a bunker warrior to a necromancer is not the best comparison: their roles in battle are far different.
3) While endure pain is good, yes, it doesn’t synergize well with a bunker build. Again because it’s a stance and not a shout. In addition the lack of protection is 33% more damage taken at all times. That’s why they are subpar.
Honestly I don’t think a pure bunker Warrior is really that viable. However, like some have mentioned, a tanky-DPS warrior certain can work.The problem is getting it to fit in with the rest of the team.
Answer the question, did you go 30 toughness as a Roamer with GS?
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
A general trend I’m seeing here is that the most overused professions at the moment either have really good access to fields, to finishers, a combination of both or bring really unique fields (Mesmers).
Necromancers are the only ones with dark fields in excess, but they also lack the ability to self combo easily. No I don’t count putrid mark as a reliable one as it may not always be the best course of action to follow up with that. The skill has too many uses in clutch moments to be thrown for combos left and right.
Mesmers can drop ethereal fields which has quite interesting properties, with just Staff alone they can phase retreat in their chaos storm for an additional chaos armor, really good synergy.
Engineers and Thieves are the only ones that have access to smoke fields, both of which can combo easily for some extra stealth, the potential of this is really in the hands of the beholder. Thieves also get a special mention in having the most finishers on no cool down, Heartseeker, Cluster Bomb, Leaping Death Blossom, and Dancing Dagger. Talk all the crap you want about thieves being ez-mode, but they still hold really good comboing potential across their arsenal.
Guardians while aren’t the only ones equipped with light fields, they are still the ones who have it in abundance. If anything, it’s impossible to run a Guardian without light fields. It’s definitely one of the stronger fields effects in the game too and what Guardians also have are finishers to go along with this skillset. Hammer is imo a staple for a defensive guardian and it’s great because it also possesses an extremely low cool down blast for both his own and his teammate’s fields.
In the end, how well you can work with your team within your class does have limits based on what fields and finishers you can bring, and I see some of the classes rated lower are probably affected hugely by this.
1) Actually Warriors only have 1 blast finisher, one whirl finisher, and 1 leap finisher, in addition to the fact that they put no combo fields down. Compare that to an Elementalist bunker who can put down multiple combo fields AND finish them multiple times. Even a Guardian can put down multiple fields and finish them. Either way combo finishers aren’t useful if you have no combo fields!
2) The problem with balanced state is that it’s not a shout. The best bunker build (IMO) uses shouts to heal. If you give up one of your core heals, there’s no way you’re going to last as long. And comparing a bunker warrior to a necromancer is not the best comparison: their roles in battle are far different.
3) While endure pain is good, yes, it doesn’t synergize well with a bunker build. Again because it’s a stance and not a shout. In addition the lack of protection is 33% more damage taken at all times. That’s why they are subpar.
Honestly I don’t think a pure bunker Warrior is really that viable. However, like some have mentioned, a tanky-DPS warrior certain can work.The problem is getting it to fit in with the rest of the team.
1) They have much more finishers.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_Finisher
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_Finisher
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirl_Finisher
Plus, consider that you are not supposed to play alone. They are called cross professions combos for a reason! xP Most of the time, if you are playing with a caster, you will have a combo field on the ground to exploit.
2) Well, ArenaNet said that every professions should match any role. If it doesn’t happens, it is a balancing problem. Also, Stability is useful to all professions, doesn’t matter their role, because it can save your life against stunlocker build that are around in this meta. I’m criticizing the fact that you gave the same points to Necromancer and Warrior which is, in my opinion, out of this world.
3) They are subpar compared to Guardians, which is well know that they need some tweaks. But if you compare Warriors to other professions, they are way better at any role. Also, having full damage cancellation for a short period of time is way more useful that having a 33% constant damage reductions. There are too much spike builds around (100b, PW, Backstab), so the right timing can save your life much more than having a constant damage reduction.
Answer the question, did you go 30 toughness as a Roamer with GS?
Ah, sorry. Yes I do. My build is 20/20/30. Traits 2,9/4,10/2,3,11.
I use berserkers amulet/jewel, runes of divinity
Utilities: Mending, bull’s charge, frenzy, endure pain, signet of rage.
Sigils of rage and intelligence on axe/shield (which i like better than mace shield tbh) and sigil of air on the GS.
It’s a good build overall, but in competitive matches it is far too easy to dodge everything. Plus it gets focused down really easily. It’s best role is as a fighter on Kyhlo at the mid point, because the point itself is so small that enemies have a hard time dodging you. In addition there is rarely a big teamfight there, in contrast to the Keep on Forest of Niflhel where you just get blown up even if the point is small.
Add me in-game, you seem like a reasonable guy. I’ll just tell you where you went wrong with that build and why it isn’t cutting it for you.
EDIT: NVM I’ll add you.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
I’m opposed to having a scoring system and not a tiering system, because how good a profession is is directly related to how good the others are at the same jobs. I also feel rating professions might not be the way, because most have builds that play differently, do different jobs and most importantly are in different tiers compared to what the other profs can do. The devs have stated they’re balancing on a per-weaponset basis, not a per-profession one.
That said, Thieves, Mesmers and Guardians are definitely 1st tier.
Thief – The de facto roamer. Perfectly as capable as warriors, elementalists, and rangers, with the added bonus of stealth and mobility that let them never waste time in a losing fight. Thieves’ Guild is an awesome elite that gives them great odds against anything 1v1 and even decent 1v2 ability.
Guardian – The face of support and point defense. If what you want is support, this guy has it all. No matter how you build, you’re going to have a great combination of defense, movement control and healing. guardians have competition in what they do, but neither eles nor engineers get to have it all the way guardians do, their support builds are more specialized.
Mesmer – The 2nd best guy at everything. They’re what you want if your team needs to switch tactics on the fly and adapt. You can leave them on a point, since they’re safe in any kind of 1v1. You can send them to roam because of that same thing and average mobility. You can send them to assist anyone, at anything. They don’t do bad in group fights either.
2nd tier is for professions that have a specialty that rivals/beats the 1st tier guys, which is a sign of a balanced game.
Engineer – This guy sure can defend a point. Extra effective in group fights, but by no means a slouch in 1v1. Supply drop is a great counter to most guardian counters. I’ve also heard of roamer potential with all the speedboosts and high damage, but haven’t faced that kind.
Elementalist – Best heals in the game. Again, more effective in group fights. Plant a staff ele and a guardian/engineer on a point and you’re never going to lose it. They have serious roaming potential but it is, again, mostly untapped because thieves are so good.
Ranger (Tier 2/3) – The king of sustained damage. Not reliant on melee range or quick bursts to deliver death with their shortbow, they nonetheless have loads of quickness and pet-bound stuns and immobilizes. The least clear tier 2 because their specialty only comes into effect when there’s something your thief can’t beat and no one (like a mesmer) to assist him.
Tier 3 are guys who just don’t have the same kind of versatile, powerful build to a role like the others do. They aren’t that much worse, but there’s little reason to take them except having a master player.
Necromancer – Counter master. Ask any guardian or non-elementalist point defender, and you’ll hear that this is what they fear. Necromancers are also the mesmer kind of versatile, as they can point defend with a full Death Shroud or assault a point with minions. However, necromancers’ specialty consists of the two least reliable things in the game at the moment: conditions and minions. Both have clear counters that kind of balance each other out, but ultimately make necromancers less reliable than competitors outside of a few matchups.
Warrior – Master of… uh? Warriors can specialize and compete with the best of them at anythign from roaming to support, but they’re less versatile within their role than the competitors, giving players no reason to use them.
If you ask me, there are a few things at the top tier holding the other professions down, but the differences are mostly about undeveloped meta (the best players don’t get to fight each other enough) and certain professions just being plain harder to play a role with.
(edited by uncop.5073)
@ Uncop. You’ve clearly never played Necro, you say that they are versatile and that minions are reliable. Necros are a 1 trick pony, if you wish to be viable in tPvP. And minons being reliable? Haha, what a joke, a necro’s minions have the worst AI in any game ever created in the history of man, if you played necro you would know this. 80% of the time they sit around doing nothing, 15% of the time they attack a different target to you, and only 5% of the time they will be useful to you.
I actually said (or tried to) that necromancer unreliability is exactly what makes it so much worse than the mesmer. Minions are decent in 1v1 and horrible anywhere else, conditions are good in group fights but a lot worse than straight damage in 1v1, both also have a clear counter (AoE to minions, removal to conditions). Death Shroud is something you can lose and are a lot weaker without. When I play necromancer, I find the best balance to be a scepter/staff condition build with Flesh Golem and Flesh Wurm, where the weaknesses really often balance each other out.
About the versatility, they aren’t versatile as in they have many good builds, they’re versatile, like the mesmer, as in they can perform a variety of roles within a good build.
(edited by uncop.5073)
I’m opposed to having a scoring system and not a tiering system, because how good a profession is is directly related to how good the others are at the same jobs. I also feel rating professions might not be the way, because most have builds that play differently, do different jobs and most importantly are in different tiers compared to what the other profs can do. The devs have stated they’re balancing on a per-weaponset basis, not a per-profession one.
A tier system works essentially the same way as a scoring system. It’s just less precise. And the ratings I gave are based on the professions best role, i.e bunker for guardian, roaming for thief. So just take those ratings and make a tier list.
I mean if you really want to take it down by role (which I wouldn’t recommend, because roles are loosely defined. It’s not like league of legends where you have a mid, carry, jungle, support, etc. In GW2 you could have a bunker that roams (Staff Ele), a Roamer that plays point defense (Engineer), or other combinations. And then in addition you could have teams that screw the meta and make a composition based on a nice role, I.E roaming burst-damage teams, or tanky condition teams.
But the hypocrite in me want to make a tier list, so I’ll base it on these roles: Bunker, Defensive Roam, Offensive Roam. Definitions are as follows: a Bunker is a player who is able to sit on a point and stay there against multiple enemies. They should offer good group utility like stability and retaliation. A Defensive Roam is a player who is in charge of defending already capped points, prioritizing the points closest to spawn and mid. They should be capable of holding out in a 1v1, and lasting some time in 1v2 or more. They need mobility to float between points. An Offensive Roam is a player who is in charge of assaulting points, and helping already capped points when needed. They prioritize burst damage and mobility. They do not need to be able to hold points as well as a Defensive Roam.
List:
Bunker:
Tier One: Guardian, Elementalist
Tier Two: Warrior, Engineer, Ranger
Tier Three: Necromancer, Mesmer, Thief
Defensive Roam:
Tier One: Mesmer, Elementalist
Tier Two: Engineer, Necromancer, Ranger
Tier Three: Warrior, Guardian, Thief
Offensive Roam:
Tier One: Thief, Ranger
Tier Two: Engineer, Warrior, Elementalist
Tier Three: Mesmer, Necromancer, Guardian
EDIT: I want to add that tier lists oversimplify things. For example, a Thief may be the perfect roamer for a certain team, but for a condition-based team they may be useless. On the other hand the Necromancer may be a terrible defensive roamer, but on a condition-based team they are absolutely necessary.
(edited by Traverse.2315)
I agree that the reason necros don’t have more than one damaging condition (poison doesn’t count) is the idea that you’re supposed to use conditions against your opponent. But in practice that just doesn’t work. Especially when the most common damage condition, and the one found on the most non-condition builds, is bleed, which you already have.
Necros right now are too shoehorned into countering boon classes and conditon spec classes. They will struggle to find a role until they’re given a second damaging condition and therefore an ability to be a threat to power builds as well.
glad to see someone with competent tpvp experience commenting on thief pvp power.
The main niche I see for necro right now is shutting down guardian. Which in the current meta with every single team running a guardian isn’t all that bad. But what makes it problematic is although you can shut down a guardian very well, solo you can’t really kill them. I mean you can but it takes long enough that you can’t do it before they get backup. Meaning you are only really useful running with another class who can do the dps to bring down the guardian while you neutralize them.
Conditionmancer right now weak in 1v1 because it only has access to one damaging condition. Necro really needs access to either burning or confusion as well to make it decent at anything besides shutting down guardians in a group situation.
I switched from necro to guardian and never have any issue with necros with my build 1v1. In a group it is a nuisance but I condition rangers and engineers are more of a threat.
I agree that the reason necros don’t have more than one damaging condition (poison doesn’t count) is the idea that you’re supposed to use conditions against your opponent. But in practice that just doesn’t work. Especially when the most common damage condition, and the one found on the most non-condition builds, is bleed, which you already have.
Necros right now are too shoehorned into countering boon classes and conditon spec classes. They will struggle to find a role until they’re given a second damaging condition and therefore an ability to be a threat to power builds as well.
I agree. They certainly are a class you have to build a team around. However as teamfighters, in the right comp, I still think that they can be extremely effective. It’s unfortunate that Necros lack the versatility to fit cleanly into the current meta.
Engineer seems to be the jack of all trades master of none, I know I can’t find a build I like with them, as someone can always do their job better. So what built is everyone using in tPvP, I have tried to play a flamethrower roamer but can never really get pass the bunker guardian. I have wondered if a combo field engineer could work since they can lay down a smoke/water/poison/fire field all in short space
I feel that because warrior is so well balanced and brings nothing blatantly strong to the table people think they are a weak profession. People also have some bizarre hang ups on building them (and even how they are supposed to function in comparison to other professions), and are working with artificial constraints. The curse of anything competitive seems to be a focus on copy-cat builds versus innovation, I suppose. Really they shine depending on the player ability more so than the others due to having no gimmicks or tricks to hide behind in higher level play.
Mesmer is strong in tourny due to their top notch shutdown abilities and damage avoidance. The ability to generate field clutter constantly (and to not have to manage it, due to clone/phantasm spawn rules) makes them very strong.
Engineer seems to be the jack of all trades master of none, I know I can’t find a build I like with them, as someone can always do their job better. So what built is everyone using in tPvP, I have tried to play a flamethrower roamer but can never really get pass the bunker guardian. I have wondered if a combo field engineer could work since they can lay down a smoke/water/poison/fire field all in short space
I’ve played quite a bit of Engineer. The most effective builds IMO are either condition damage focused around pistol, or burst damage focused around rifle and static shock. I definitely prefer the pistol, because it gives you access to the shield which is an amazing and versatile weapon for defense. As for utilities, I use bomb kit and elixir b, with my 3rd being either slick shoes, flamethrower, or grenades (i switch these out mid-game depending on the situation). I use slick shoes in 1v1, flamethrower if I’m entering a teamfight that has already started, and grenades if I’m entering a teamfight that hasn’t started.
But I agree with your statement of “Jack of all trades, master of none” You have to accept that you can’t build extremely glass cannon/one dimensional. The static shock build being somewhat of an exception.
Traverse, say, maybe I’m reading too much into things, but from your comment that thieves aren’t useful in condition heavy teams I assume you’re not taking condition thieves into consideration, which leads to another assumption on my part that you don’t find condition thieves too useful in tournament play.
I was wondering as a condition thief that so far only plays in PuG games, if I were to join tournament matches with my current build – what role should i try to take on and what team compositions I might be useful for, if at all?
Liuli – Mesmer – Piken Square
@Numot.3965
I agree. It seems most people are stuck thinking they have to use a Greatsword while playing a warrior, and that is just not true. I have seen some amazing 1h+shield warriors. One used a 1h mace+shield and a 1h sword+shield. He was tanky as hell and could do some real damage. Warriors are not weak, people think that because when you started as a warrior every one was a noob and it was way too easy to own other players with a warrior. Now people are learning the Prof and getting better and the warriors power level is evening out with all the other Prof. Good warriors are going to be those that create and use good builds, and learn to use all the tools available to the Prof.
While i still think 100b still does too much damage, good warrior will land it and no skill should do 9-13k damage that fast. I think warriors are very well balanced.
Setnnex-Necro
great post, really.
I play thief, and i’m higly struggling in finding a defined role for my thief, since as you said, a thief is next to useless in high toughness/conditions comps ( and usually it’s very tough to defeat a bunker guardian/ele defending a point with a burst build).
personally i believe that a huge rebalance should be done to the class.
Anyway, the fact you put guardian/mesmer on top, says it all about current balance, since there are teams with triple/double mesmer/guardian being very succesful.
TOO successful -.-‘’’
Traverse, say, maybe I’m reading too much into things, but from your comment that thieves aren’t useful in condition heavy teams I assume you’re not taking condition thieves into consideration, which leads to another assumption on my part that you don’t find condition thieves too useful in tournament play.
I was wondering as a condition thief that so far only plays in PuG games, if I were to join tournament matches with my current build – what role should i try to take on and what team compositions I might be useful for, if at all?
Well, it depends on your weapon set really. However I am not a good resource for a Thief, I have played maybe 20-30 games on mine and I’ve only been using Sword/Pistol burst damage really. Maybe go to the Thief forum and ask them?
Thief role is to harass. Assault objectives that are weak, get into the path of people trying to get your points/reinforce a teamfight, make the enemy have keep defenders on their points and then go to your team etc. Thief has a really high skill ceiling and it’s the really good ones who amaze me. They know where to go, where you are likely to go and to utilize your field of vision. They play with your expectations like a mesmer, make you stand in place like a fool while they go somewhere else. Appear behind you when you thought they were gone.
Also, shortbow is what makes thieves useful in teamfights. They’re often too fragile to stay in and finish the enemies they burst in melee, but the shortbow keeps the AoE pressure on. I’m pretty sure the shortbow and venom sharing are the reasons to run condition thief at all. Please don’t be that guy who spams death blossom. Condition thieves have a harder time 1v1ing and need a different approach than pistol whip guys.
All kinds of thieves are at home in defensive comps, IMO that’s exactly where they shine. They help you kill faster when you need it, make your slow fights count by helping keep the objectives and generally disrupt the slow, methodical atmosphere defensive builds have to them. The reason you might feel thieves don’t work is that you’ve played with ones that don’t pick their fights and escape when in the slightest danger.
(edited by uncop.5073)
^^
I see a lot of thieves only using shortbow for infiltrator’s arrow when really it can be used for so much more. Though you have to account for the projectile speed, it packs a blast finisher that has no CD. You can use this to self combo with the poison cloud for AoE weakness or whatever fields your teammates have dropped.
Additionally, Disabling shot is one of the most troll skills in the game and I know I’ve wasted so many of my foes cool downs with that skill all while keeping them snared and what not.
I also see a lot of thieves because they know they have the mobility, they always run and not fight even when they could easily turn it around. If you need to step out the heat, the shortbow allows you to pick at targets from the outskirts while you wait for your CDs. The damage easily racks up and it’s very possible to go back in for the kill with your “main set.”
You hold the highest burst potential in the game, you want to use it again and again, not just once and run away. Go in for the kill when its totally skewed for you and don’t be afraid to make a last stand as running sometimes is only delaying the inevitable. Sometimes forcing a DPS race down their throats is all you need to do.
I feel that because warrior is so well balanced and brings nothing blatantly strong to the table people think they are a weak profession. People also have some bizarre hang ups on building them (and even how they are supposed to function in comparison to other professions), and are working with artificial constraints. The curse of anything competitive seems to be a focus on copy-cat builds versus innovation, I suppose. Really they shine depending on the player ability more so than the others due to having no gimmicks or tricks to hide behind in higher level play.
I think people hide behind gimmicks much more in 8v8 than in high level play. That’s why Heartseeker Thief, Greatsword Warrior are so popular. At the higher level, you can’t rely on that kind of stuff, which is why people need to change up their Warrior builds to be more consistent. I’ve seen some good Warrior builds, just not in practice that much. I can only hope.
I really think a second damaging condition is all necros need to be balanced. Necros are already good in a group situation, they just struggle to put out enough dps to be a threat to anyone in 1v1 in an organized setting where backup arrives in ~20 seconds and if you don’t get a kill by then you won’t get a kill.
If necros had access to burning that would be another what, 1kish dps? With 50% uptime that’s another 500 dps or 10k damage over 20 seconds. About enough to take necro from “annoying but not going to kill you” to “this guy might actually take me out before my backup arrives.”
It would also be another condition to put on guardians and therefore would make conditionmancers natural guardian killers. Conditionmancer is also generally strong (comparatively speaking) against mesmer due to all your aoe and condition reflection, and decent against thief due to high hp, DS and thief condition removal being generally pretty poor. Necros could therefore be used to soft counter the overprevalence of those three classes perhaps without the need for more serious nerfs to them.
The more I think about it the more I think necros are the key. All of GW2’s most glaring balance problems seem to be entertwined with necros being unattractive and underplayed.
(edited by Yukishiro.8792)
Q: According to Anet’s design goals for PvP, aren’t all professions supposed to be able to perform more than one roll? Where’s the balance report on the other builds for each of the classes? Other than Mesmer of course since they’re the only ones you claimed (and accurately so) as being able to perform all roles.
I main an Ele and I’ll be kitten if I resort to a bunker/support Staff build (yawn)
Hackkz/Riggamaroll
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long
I’m curious about the thief damage you mentioned. How does a thief get his steal to do 6k damage? I do about 1k last time I checked, and I try to maximize crit dmg, power and prec. Could be wrong about the numbers, but 6k is insane even if you stack as many buffs as you can. I suppose the max might amount is 8 (from venom + active sigil)
I am surprised you think mesmers are an 8. I agree they are somewhat OP, but there are definitely ways to counter them depending on their build. I wouldn’t place them higher than guardians myself, but I haven’t played guardians myself to judge accurately.
there is a major trait in deadly arts line “mug” which will make steal hit for 6k
An interesting quote from Jon Peters in HoM tonight regarding Guardian Balance
Jon Petersbunker guardian has to much retal period. obviously. frankly, to much prot also. but that is not the heart of the matter. the core problem is retal. because with it, bunker builds eliminate spike builds from the meta game. which in turn makes bunker builds OP. so the counter to them is beeing countered by them. aka balance problem. defensive builds are important, they help establish strategies. but they are als determining the entire meta right know.
Source: http://i.imgur.com/D6Ms5.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/EphZv.jpg
So obviously guardians giving perma-retal is overpowered atm, which I agree with.
Also, interestingly, Jon Peters is unsure that taking repair kit through portals is OP.
portal is great
not sure aobut taking repair kit through it yet
Source: http://i.imgur.com/L9jXV.jpg
Overall, the devs said that they are working as hard as they can on balance and PvP in general. This is a huge game, give them the benefit of the doubt.
Nerfing retaliation is a decent first step but it doesn’t really address many of the fundamental issues with PVP right now. In the short term it just skews things even more towards thieves and mesmers.
This is a continuation of my first thread, which you can find >here<
I enjoy reading the spvp forums during lunch and before I go to bed. I have come to terms with the fact that there will be some amount of whining and complaining on the forums, but it’s gotten ridiculous as of late with the Thief QQ. I’ll address that in this thread, as well as my other thoughts.
For some quick credentials, if you didn’t visit my last topic, I’m now a rank 30 player with over 400 tourney wins. Recently I’ve been playing a TON of Elementalist, but I have tournament experience with all the professions. I’ve played a bit of sPvP but most of my time is spent in tPvP (where the game is balanced around, keep in mind)
Before I start talking about actual balance, let me give some arbitrary numbers on where I think balance is. The rating system is 1-10, with 1 being completely useless, and 10 being ridiculously overpowered. If everything was completely balanced everyone would have a 5. I’m not going to go as in-depth as last time.
Guardian: 6 Why? Retal nerf was okay, but moreso other bunkers have stepped up to par. Still the staple mid point holder, though.
Warrior: 5 Why? People have gotten more creative with builds, and the Warrior fight presence makes them valuable on a team if played correctly.
Ranger: 5 Why? Shortbow nerf was unexpected, but there are other builds that allow Rangers more versatility than most professions (traps, rez spirit, etc)
Engineer: 5 Why? As an Engineer player, I see too many bad specs (I’m talking to you, Elixir U + pistol/pistol). Engineer bunker is not as good as Ele or Guardian bunker IMO. Engineers are strong, but easily focused in team fights. Starting to become more niche.
Thief: 5 Why? I’ll go into it more later, but a Thief in it’s current iteration functions as a sniper – killing weak/vulnerable targets in a fight or by themselves. (There are the caltrops builds which also can be effective). However, a good team will focus them as soon as they come out of stealth.
Elementalist: 5 Why? Staff Elementalist is now pretty much a requirement on Kyhlo. They are excellent roaming supporters and I like their role currently. People are complaining that they are impossible to kill at the treb, but that’s not true, you just need someone with sustained non-condition damage.
Mesmer: 6 Why? Portal and Timewarp. Portal is THE best mobility spell in the game, allowing a team to be very greedy when playing. Hard to counter, as well. And then TimeWarp essentially guaranteeing a team fight win.
Necromancer: 5 Why? Bug fixes and exploration of builds and playstyles. I’ve seen a lot of good players testing the waters with Necro recently. Pretty good point holders, can be devastating if coordinating with another condition damage build on the team.
Post Script: Why are Thieves balanced right now? Well I’ll start by addressing the two major complaints of the Thief right now.
The first complaint is that their damage is too high. The second complaint is that they have too much stealth and evasion for the amount of damage they do.
Thief damage is abnormally high. I’m not going to say that it isn’t. However I think one small change will fix all of the Thieves backstab problems: change steal to interrupt the current cast. This will prevent the Steal + C&D + Backstab instagib. I honestly think that 9-10k backstab is okay. (And I’m saying this as a bunker elementalist whose gotten one-shotted by many a thief). The backstab build is a very high risk, high reward build, and both teams need to coordinate to make the build work or to shut it down. The two most important steps to shutting a backstab thief down are positioning and preparedness. You need to know that the thief is coming, and position yourself in friendly AoEs or next to teammates to prevent yourself from getting killed.
Next, I don’t understand people who complain about Thief stealth. When you’re in stealth, you can’t neutralize or cap a point. Stealth generally doesn’t last long enough to be able to camp an area and abuse it. The function of stealth is to allow a thief to get into and out of a fight with ease. That’s one of the tenets of the Thief class! If they couldn’t stealth, they wouldn’t be a Thief. Saying that it’s unfair that a Thief takes advantage of stealth is like saying that it’s unfair that a Mesmer takes advantage of clones and phantasms. Overall, I think that the Stealth mechanic in this game is more balanced and exciting than in a game like WoW with perma-stealth and stealth dropping on hit.
Conclusion:
You’ll notice that according to my ratings, the game is very balanced. Which it is, for tPvP. Honestly the reason Thieves dominate in sPvP is due to the lack of coordination, and the inflation of people (allowing a Thief to hide in a pack of allies and pick of weak enemies). I still think Mesmers and Guardians need a little balancing. The easy fix for Guardian is to remove the 3 second block bug, and other bugs that people have found. I think for Mesmers, a reduced radius on Time Warp would be fair, and increase the cooldown on Portal. Overall I’m happy with current balance, I see diversity in team comps now (outside of every team having a Mesmer and a Guardian, with many teams but not all running staff Elementalist).
Please share your thoughts! And, as always, keep it rational and level-headed.
Thief: 5 Why? I’ll go into it more later, but a Thief in it’s current iteration functions as a sniper – killing weak/vulnerable targets in a fight or by themselves. (There are the caltrops builds which also can be effective). However, a good team will focus them as soon as they come out of stealth.
Easily killing weak/vulnerable targets = kill everything in >5 seconds except guardian?
Also, even if a thief gets caught out of stealth he will just blink away and/or blink again or stealth. Good teams will never focus a thief in a teamfight as they are very hard to kill, and even if you do down them, they have the a very strong down state ability and will easily be rezzed.
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