Guild Wars 2

“Thieves are very hard to kill.”

Yeah obviously that’s coming from a casual. In competitive play everyone just AoE’s the hell out of points to the point where if a Thief goes in, it becomes very unforgiving. At least Warrior can make plays around AoE’s. A point that is focused by constant AoE is where Thieves don’t really have an incentive to kill when they risk getting crowd controlled/blind-locked by good Engi’s and constantly blinded via blind well and risks getting conditions over and over by the good Bunker Necros.

Jordan.9132:

Traverse.2315:

Thief: 5 Why? I’ll go into it more later, but a Thief in it’s current iteration functions as a sniper – killing weak/vulnerable targets in a fight or by themselves. (There are the caltrops builds which also can be effective). However, a good team will focus them as soon as they come out of stealth.

Easily killing weak/vulnerable targets = kill everything in >5 seconds except guardian?

Also, even if a thief gets caught out of stealth he will just blink away and/or blink again or stealth. Good teams will never focus a thief in a teamfight as they are very hard to kill, and even if you do down them, they have the a very strong down state ability and will easily be rezzed.

If a Thief is running Dagger mainhand,he has no blink/shadow return to get away. He might stealth, yes, but assuming he’s already in the middle of a teamfight, he’ll be taking incidental damage from AoEs and weapon cleave.

The way my team deals with Thieves is a hard swap. So we’ll be focusing let’s say an Engineer in a team fight, then when a Thief pops into combat, everyone swaps to him. With proper stuns and CCs, the Thief usually stands no chance.

Seriously even if you go invisible, you can still get hurt because any competent team will have a tanky condition damage dealer. If you use your escapes from 789, what the hell are you going to do when your team has to take a point against people with half a brain?

Carrying as a Thief is usually a fluke in tPvP.

Another ‘the game is balanced around tournament pvp, so if you don’t play that, sucks for you’ post. People like you, and I’ve seen this justification in every online game I’ve played, will never learn that a miniscule, absolutely miniscule, portion of the population plays pvp at the highest level, so trying to use that type of play as a basis for balance does not work. You don’t alienate 99% of players for the sake of the top 1%.

Obviously no one is perfect but at least have the decency to get better? Because of BS like this some undeserved nerfs happen. I’ll give you an example. The latest nerf on Irelia. Enough said.

You want another example that you will understand? Warrior Eviscerate from beta-testing. Seriously Eviscerate has never been anything to get worked up about. Now its legit below average.

Where do you get that the game is balanced around tourney play? If you think a game that refuses to balance (at least in part) to the more casual sPvP can support itself on a minority alone…

Take Dota for example. It is certainly balanced at the highest level of play, but it still has to cater toward the middle as well. It has done so successfully and enjoys a large community because of it.

Moreover, I have a feeling (conjecture here) that bunker builds are going to take a hit. They aren’t fun to watch for e-sports. If this is the case then the thief will again rise in strength. There were tourney exclusive players who regularly complained about the thief until the bunker build became ubiquitous.

Kat.5982:

Another ‘the game is balanced around tournament pvp, so if you don’t play that, sucks for you’ post. People like you, and I’ve seen this justification in every online game I’ve played, will never learn that a miniscule, absolutely miniscule, portion of the population plays pvp at the highest level, so trying to use that type of play as a basis for balance does not work. You don’t alienate 99% of players for the sake of the top 1%.

I’m not trying to alienate anyone. But do you really expect ArenaNet to balance around a game mode where nobody works together? Where people simply go in with their glass cannon build, get one shotted by a Thief, then whine about it on the forums? Then afterwards refuses to modify their builds to beat said Thief?

It’s not like Thieves are unstoppable in sPvP. It’s just that people are unwilling to modify their builds and playstyles to counter them… In fact most people think that they should be able to build however they want and be able to succeed vs everything. And people think that if they are on their 100b Glass Cannon Warrior and get 1-shotted by a Thief, that the game is horribly inbalanced, when the truth is that if they had built more balanced they could have won the fight.

So, you are a self proclaimed top player who basically thinks everything is fine? How can you be so arrogant to think that you are better than everybody else?

I have seen various streamers who have won tons of tournaments state that thieves, in particular backstab, are broken. Just a few hours ago I saw Xee (R40 tpvp mesmer) get INSTA-GIBBED from stealth by a thief with 12k backstab. Him dieing instantly caused them to lose the match…

QSpec.4298:

Where do you get that the game is balanced around tourney play? If you think a game that refuses to balance (at least in part) to the more casual sPvP can support itself on a minority alone…

Take Dota for example. It is certainly balanced at the highest level of play, but it still has to cater toward the middle as well. It has done so successfully and enjoys a large community because of it.

Moreover, I have a feeling (conjecture here) that bunker builds are going to take a hit. They aren’t fun to watch for e-sports. If this is the case then the thief will again rise in strength. There were tourney exclusive players who regularly complained about the thief until the bunker build became ubiquitous.

Certainly they wouldn’t leave sPvP in a state where it was completely lopsided. But it’s not like they are going to do a complete rework of the Thief profession because people can’t deal with backstab Thieves… And believe me, a Thief nerf is coming in the next balance patch. But they will probably still be strong following the patch in sPvP if people keep playing the way they are currently. Just less 1-shotty-ness.

ehtom.5047:

So, you are a self proclaimed top player who basically thinks everything is fine? How can you be so arrogant to think that you are better than everybody else?

I have seen various streamers who have won tons of tournaments state that thieves, in particular backstab, are broken. Just a few hours ago I saw Xee (R40 tpvp mesmer) get INSTA-GIBBED from stealth by a thief with 12k backstab. Him dieing instantly caused them to lose the match…

Where did I say I was better than anyone? I merely cited that I have a bunch of experience playing in tournaments.

Okay, so you saw a glass-cannon Mesmer get one-shot by a glass-cannon Thief. In a different situation, the Mesmer could just as easily one-shot the Thief. Does that make Mesmers overpowered? Mesmers can also one-shot Rangers, Engineers, Warriors, Necros, etc… The price of playing as a glass-cannon is being extremely flimsy.

Traverse, I think you over-simplify a lot of stuff in for the sake of being concise.

The reason why Thieves are OP is that there are no player-induced (Read: skill) counters to a well played thief.

Consider:
- they can ALWAYS escape to heal.
- they have on demand, 100% damage mitigation in the form of stealth. Even block/invuls/shields pale in comparison, as stealth forces the other player to retarget (exceeding difficult considering how absurdly many classes have pets, including thieves), while other class’s abilities don’t force retargetting. Either way, every fight a thief enjoys many extra seconds of no incoming damage, and there is NO COUNTER.
- they get an upper hand at the start of most fights, all if played properly. Stealth combined with “backstab-like” abilities is not something that can really be countered in a skilled match. You can’t counter what you can’t see – and even if you get lucky dodge/AoE guessing, 5 seconds later you’d have to do it again. NO REAL COUNTER.
- stealth executes are priceless, and better than stability (ie. no dmg taken from downed opponent). There is NO COUNTER to stealth execute.
- thieves are impossible to kite. If they are ever crippled, they go stealth – completely eradicating any hope of doing damage while kiting – which is a ranged class’s only hope. They have multiple teleports/leaps, and only an elementalist burning cooldowns can really get away. Otherwise, NO COUNTER.
- downed teleport is an incredible skill – and saves more thieves (and mezmers) than any other downed ability. It always takes longer to finish them (even for ranged classes). This pays off huge when defending points, waiting for backup, etc. Again, there is NO COUNTER to this.

On a spreadsheet, thief abilities don’t seem over-powered. But it is the one class that has NO COUNTERS when played properly.

Defending thieves by saying “groups can target and burst them at the start of fights” is not a counter, or balance. Any class, regardless of being OP, can be group bursted at the start of fights. That’s really not the point, but identifying that as an option really suggests there they have no gameplay-based COUNTER.

RE: “AoE mitigates thief ownage” – some classes don’t have consistent AoE, for example rangers. If you take traps, you’re useless against everything else.
RE: “build your specs to counter thieves” – NO other class demands that, and is NOT the definition of balanced.
RE: “game balanced for tPvP” – it shouldn’t be. Balance shouldn’t only be attained by a well-skilled group on Ventrillo shouting out thieves and mass-targeting them. That’s not balance, that’s insane.

Balance is balance – when 1 class has so many unique abilities with so few counters, you can’t say its balanced.

My biggest gripe is not the damage itself, but how little effort it is taking the thief player to dish it out in the first place. Many other professions need some sort of build up to use their burst (100B, Dragon’s Tooth etc). It’s pretty frustrating when you have to pull out all the stops against someone quite literally pressing 1 button over and over. But I guess that’s how they are designed, I just don’t like it, it feels cheap.

I also have reached the 30’s from TPvP. I have 8 slots and a character of each class as well. I too have been spending a vast amount of time on my ele lately (or my engi, they both have “many buttons” capabilities which I find entertaining).

I have had my kitten pushed in whilst solo-to-3-man queuing (haven’t been lucky enough to find a 4th and 5th non-raging over vent elitist yet) by TP, AC, SS and a few other notable teams on more than one occasion which has actually been pretty fun tbh just to see how their comps work first hand and whatnot.

I disagree with your balance list pretty strongly in a few areas after both playing against and playing AS the various classes in tourney’s and from spending probably an obscenely large amount of time watching streams from players of various classes and various teams.

Mesmer – 9
At least. The class can do no wrong. It’s one of the best node controllers, support classes, roamers and duelists and never requires a trait change. Change portal to null field or back as needed and that’s the only change that ever needs to occur to fill any of those team roles. Best class in the game hands down. Also probably the only class in the game that I’ve played where I really don’t need to pay attention to, nor care what my opponent does. Sure I watch for something to dodge and all but for the most part I can and do run through my exact same execution to drop a bunker as I do a roamer as I do a “support/balanced” character. It just really doesn’t matter much at all. The only reason I wouldn’t rate playing my mesmer as mind numbingly simple as playing my thief is that it does actually require weapon swaps and a rotation of multiple abilities. My thief requires 3 keys to drop someone and 2 of those could be tied to a macro if I were so inclined.

Ele – 3 OR 8
Purely depending on player skill. At top level of play the class is insane mode. It can achieve amazing feats that almost single handedly carry a team to victory. When it’s not played to perfection however it’s power drops off dramatically until it’s almost a waste of a team slot.

Engi’s and necros are both very similar to ranking of the ele. The difference in team contribution and power rating are so very depending on player skill that visually it’s more of a skill CLIFF than a skill curve. Those 3 classes (ele, engi, necro) are probably the skill-to-power model that should be applied to every class imho.

Warriors – 3
Good for SPvP zerg stomping and WvWvW zerg stomping. Complete kitten in competitive play. Sorry warrior fans, but you’re dragging your team down and if highly skilled would be accomplishing far more on a better class with that skill than you do by handicapping yourself on a “meh” class.

There is no point arguing with people like this. Its just as bad as MOBA games that its pathetic. No seriously its almost arguing with people who did not have the decency to get educated even though they have NO DISORDER.

“No counters when played properly.” Laughed really hard on that because its either a learning disability or just flat out lazy and doesn’t want to do work. Reminds me so much of the people who says Bulls Charge + Frenzy was the only way to play Warrior. So kitten simple minded I want to die laughing.

By the way, that statement only applies to Elementalist I believe as Evie implied. And definitely Mesmer, how could you forget this forgiving class? Not Thief.

Get over it and know your places. Casuals should never have a say in balancing. Period. Again know your places. Not apologizing for being a jerk either. Its just the fact that its a “no kids should ever be spoiled” scenario.

And I can definitely say, A LOT of you “kids” got spoiled. Ridiculously.

NaZ.1457:

Traverse, I think you over-simplify a lot of stuff in for the sake of being concise.

The reason why Thieves are OP is that there are no player-induced (Read: skill) counters to a well played thief.

Consider:
- they can ALWAYS escape to heal.
- they have on demand, 100% damage mitigation in the form of stealth. Even block/invuls/shields pale in comparison, as stealth forces the other player to retarget (exceeding difficult considering how absurdly many classes have pets, including thieves), while other class’s abilities don’t force retargetting. Either way, every fight a thief enjoys many extra seconds of no incoming damage, and there is NO COUNTER.
- they get an upper hand at the start of most fights, all if played properly. Stealth combined with “backstab-like” abilities is not something that can really be countered in a skilled match. You can’t counter what you can’t see – and even if you get lucky dodge/AoE guessing, 5 seconds later you’d have to do it again. NO REAL COUNTER.
- stealth executes are priceless, and better than stability (ie. no dmg taken from downed opponent). There is NO COUNTER to stealth execute.
- thieves are impossible to kite. If they are ever crippled, they go stealth – completely eradicating any hope of doing damage while kiting – which is a ranged class’s only hope. They have multiple teleports/leaps, and only an elementalist burning cooldowns can really get away. Otherwise, NO COUNTER.
- downed teleport is an incredible skill – and saves more thieves (and mezmers) than any other downed ability. It always takes longer to finish them (even for ranged classes). This pays off huge when defending points, waiting for backup, etc. Again, there is NO COUNTER to this.

On a spreadsheet, thief abilities don’t seem over-powered. But it is the one class that has NO COUNTERS when played properly.

Defending thieves by saying “groups can target and burst them at the start of fights” is not a counter, or balance. Any class, regardless of being OP, can be group bursted at the start of fights. That’s really not the point, but identifying that as an option really suggests there they have no gameplay-based COUNTER.

Good post. I’ll agree with you on some points but disagree with you on others.

What I agree with:

Thief Down state being a bit too strong. It’s hard to down a Thief. However, the counter to that argument is that if a Thief is getting rezzed and he teleports, his teammates need to move as well. I think it needs a bit of a change though.

Thieves have the upper hand at the start of a fight. There is very little you can do to prevent the backstab. It’s what you do AFTER the backstab that matters. That’s why it’s crucial that Thieves aren’t able to kill people before they get out of stealth. My solution was to remove the C&D + Steal combo, but it can also be achieved in different ways. Note I said earlier that glass cannons should be able to one shot other glass cannons – I meant this by being able to kill in a short combo. So Steal, Backstab, and Heartseeker, where the Heartseeker would be out of stealth and therefore avoidable.

Thieves have MANY gap closers. It’s frustrating to deal with, certainly. Some professions like Ranger have very few stuns or ways to avoid this. In my opinion, the best way to deal with a Thief spamming leaps (well actually most professions in general) is with an Immobilize. This forces them to use up a stealth, in which you can run away from them, forcing to waste their stealth break on a gap closer and not backstab.

What I disagree with:

Thieves can not “Always” escape to heal. Especially not when stunned. Remember, most backstab Thieves don’t run with any stun breaks! Daze and Stun/Knockdown are your best friends!

While a Thief does have on-demand stealth (when it’s off cooldown), it’s definitely not 100% damage mitigation. Thieves are still hit by conditions, AoEs (new conditions can be applied while in stealth), and weapon cleave. While it does force retargetting, I’ve had many a Thief die against me while in stealth due to condition damage.

Certainly in 1v1 Stealth executes are strong. Also in team fights. However while in stealth Thieves can still get knocked back from skills like an Engy’s Big Ol’ Bomb, or Dazed from a Mesmer’s Chaos storm. So, strong but counterable. I think that invuln stomps (Ele mist form, Mesmer Distortion) are stronger than stealth stomps.

Overall, Thieves are counterable with teamwork – and certainly lose in 1v1s vs tanky condition damage builds.

This thread pleases me. It pleases me greatly.

I don’t know why people say things like this:

- they have on demand, 100% damage mitigation in the form of stealth. Even block/invuls/shields pale in comparison

Because it’s completely untrue. It isn’t the game mechanic to be 100% damage mitigation.

For those who get offended when people talk about/advocate balance at higher levels, you have to understand that a game that desires to be an e-sport must be balanced at the top tier. The End. There’s no other way around it.

I generally agree with Schwahrheit. Where is the desire to improve? If something is killing you, don’t you want to try to adapt and overcome the obstacle? I cannot empathize with another human who doesn’t embrace challenges like that, instead opting to complain about balance and hope the developer changes the game for them.

There very much is a “spoiled kid” mentality permeating games these days, and it’s unfortunate.

Traverse.2315:

Where did I say I was better than anyone? I merely cited that I have a bunch of experience playing in tournaments.

Okay, so you saw a glass-cannon Mesmer get one-shot by a glass-cannon Thief. In a different situation, the Mesmer could just as easily one-shot the Thief. Does that make Mesmers overpowered? Mesmers can also one-shot Rangers, Engineers, Warriors, Necros, etc… The price of playing as a glass-cannon is being extremely flimsy.

Mesmer burst is:

1. Less than Thief
2. Has buildup (have to summon clones to shatter, meaning its even possible to evade this damage)

In short, Mesmer burst is somewhat counterable. Thief instagib from stealth is UNCOUNTERABLE.

Cogbyrn.7283:

This thread pleases me. It pleases me greatly.

I don’t know why people say things like this:

- they have on demand, 100% damage mitigation in the form of stealth. Even block/invuls/shields pale in comparison

Because it’s completely untrue. It isn’t the game mechanic to be 100% damage mitigation.

For those who get offended when people talk about/advocate balance at higher levels, you have to understand that a game that desires to be an e-sport must be balanced at the top tier. The End. There’s no other way around it.

I generally agree with Schwahrheit. Where is the desire to improve? If something is killing you, don’t you want to try to adapt and overcome the obstacle? I cannot empathize with another human who doesn’t embrace challenges like that, instead opting to complain about balance and hope the developer changes the game for them.

There very much is a “spoiled kid” mentality permeating games these days, and it’s unfortunate.

Every single game which is now an esport has been balanced many times and is still being re-balanced even now. To say that the game is currently perfectly balanced and nothing should be changed is the epitome of childish naivety.

Also, several popular esport games (DotA2, LoL) do balance around the mid level somewhat. (e.g. Ursa/Huskar nerfs in dota2, Eve tier in LoL)

Moreover, there are pictures elsewhere on this forum where a Thief has 1shot someone from stealth with backstab. This has no counter since there is no possible way to react or outplay your opponent.

Cogbyrn.7283:

There very much is a “spoiled kid” mentality permeating games these days, and it’s unfortunate.

There is also very much a narcissistic elitist mentality permeating games these days as well that’s neither fortunate nor promotes a healthy and rational discussion of topics. While yes some issues can be written off as “L2P” (one doesn’t have to be a kitten about it however) others do have a valid issue at their core, even if put forward poorly.

Yes, as an “esport” hopeful the game does need to factor in balance at the top competitive level. However it is still a game to be played by many and unless the game ONLY wants “professional” players, of which there are very very few, it does need to take into consideration the “average” joe. Not the absolute terribad bottom run player, but the guys in the middle class.

If the output of a class, on average, far exceeds the amount of input required it’s a pretty flawed design.

HB whine being written off is fairly justified because most average players have come to realize that dodge completely negates the warriors built around it. The backstab burst builds will plague forum topics however because the only visual queue you will have that it’s coming is seeing a thief on the screen (IF you see him to begin with). Steal has quite a long range. Steal has no obvious animation. People say “If you see a thief stealth around you” without realizing that the theif doesn’t “pre-stealth” before launching into the backstab.

Seriously, what bad thief “pre-stealths”? Either you pre-load CnD for the steal, which really should be removed imo, or you trait into steal providing stealth.

Either way it really is a matter of the reward you can achieve vs your average opponent vs the effort you put forth. Having a backstab thief I can tell you that the effort is only slightly more than logging into the game in the first place and the majority of it could be automated via a keyboard or mouse with macro functionality.

I’m sorry, but I’ve played over 700 games and I might have gone down 2-3 times from this mythical backstab instagib everyone is so upset about. Maybe I’m just that kitten lucky, or maybe it’s that I never run any build with less than around 1800 toughness, but I just don’t get the excessive whining.

Kat.5982:

Another ‘the game is balanced around tournament pvp, so if you don’t play that, sucks for you’ post. People like you, and I’ve seen this justification in every online game I’ve played, will never learn that a miniscule, absolutely miniscule, portion of the population plays pvp at the highest level, so trying to use that type of play as a basis for balance does not work. You don’t alienate 99% of players for the sake of the top 1%.

While I tend to agree that alienating the largest portions of your playerbase (that is, the casuals – both PvE and PvP) is a bad idea, you do need a focusing point for balance. I agree that ANet should work on getting Thieves balanced in both areas, but priority should be balance in 5v5. 8v8 will never be balanced within a reasonable margin. Ever. Get it out of your head, it’s impossible. But, toning down the damage/stealth and upping base survivability and utility could work well for both parties.

Aside from that, I run a 14k HP 2500 toughness Ele in both 8v8 and 5v5, and I still rarely die to Thieves unless it’s a straight zerg and they jump me, or I don’t see them coming. They are a joke if you avoid the opening. And the only time they instagib me is when they crit on on Backstab. In 1v1, 2v1, and even teamfight scenarios, if I can’t kill them, I can escape.

aydenunited.5729:

I’m sorry, but I’ve played over 700 games and I might have gone down 2-3 times from this mythical backstab instagib everyone is so upset about. Maybe I’m just that kitten lucky, or maybe it’s that I never run any build with less than around 1800 toughness, but I just don’t get the excessive whining.

Most people do in fact exaggerate about the “instagib”. It’s not really an instagib, it is however a rediculously short TTK though. Much like people saying they got 100-0’d by a HB. Usually it’s a HB and a swap to eviscerate at the least, most times there are a few other hits in there as well.

I do know that I have often times run close to 2.5-3k toughness and been tagged by mug>CnD>backstab>HS COMBO for close to 22k health on a number of occasions. I have also done this same thing to guardians/warriors running similar toughness levels. It’s not an “instagib” but the time it takes for all that to hit from the start of the steal teleport to the final HS only about 2 seconds. In an ideal 0 latency world where visibility from stealth was instant you could in theory break out of it around the CnD>Backstab transition, however given the latency in the game along with the stealth-to-visibility issue most times you get the full combo off before the opponent actually sees you.

Braxxus.2904:

aydenunited.5729:

I’m sorry, but I’ve played over 700 games and I might have gone down 2-3 times from this mythical backstab instagib everyone is so upset about. Maybe I’m just that kitten lucky, or maybe it’s that I never run any build with less than around 1800 toughness, but I just don’t get the excessive whining.

Most people do in fact exaggerate about the “instagib”. It’s not really an instagib, it is however a rediculously short TTK though. Much like people saying they got 100-0’d by a HB. Usually it’s a HB and a swap to eviscerate at the least, most times there are a few other hits in there as well.

I do know that I have often times run close to 2.5-3k toughness and been tagged by mug>CnD>backstab>HS COMBO for close to 22k health on a number of occasions. I have also done this same thing to guardians/warriors running similar toughness levels. It’s not an “instagib” but the time it takes for all that to hit from the start of the steal teleport to the final HS only about 2 seconds. In an ideal 0 latency world where visibility from stealth was instant you could in theory break out of it around the CnD>Backstab transition, however given the latency in the game along with the stealth-to-visibility issue most times you get the full combo off before the opponent actually sees you.

I guess I’ve just been lucky. 700+ times. I’m dead serious, the only times that series has popped up is when 2-3+ thieves do it together, only once or twice in a 1v1 situation in the entire time I’ve played the game, and even then, I’d just finished fighting and had no cooldowns to use.

But also, I play much more tPvP than sPvP so that might also be it.

“Sweet Rangers are balanced because we can use trap builds”. I don’t know about the rest of you but I would like to have at least 3 viable builds. It wouldn’t even take much just pets being able to attack while moving, fixing spirits, fixing 1h sword animation so your not rooted and giving GS a bit more dmg. It actually seems like the swift on shortbow doesn’t work either since the last patch.

I am sure most of us would just like the bugs fixed and I don’t think anyone can say the game is near perfect balance with so many things broken or bugged on every class.

aydenunited

But also, I play much more tPvP than sPvP so that might also be it.

As do I. Since the only part of the PvP game that matters is TPvP, balance is done at the TPvP level and whatnot, the vast majority of my time is spent in TPvP only. This includes time after time, hours and hours of solo queuing TPvP when teammates are not online and in the mood.

Believe me, THAT will test your patience with the game like nothing else.

Braxxus.2904

I also have reached the 30’s from TPvP. I have 8 slots and a character of each class as well. I too have been spending a vast amount of time on my ele lately (or my engi, they both have “many buttons” capabilities which I find entertaining).

I have had my kitten pushed in whilst solo-to-3-man queuing (haven’t been lucky enough to find a 4th and 5th non-raging over vent elitist yet) by TP, AC, SS and a few other notable teams on more than one occasion which has actually been pretty fun tbh just to see how their comps work first hand and whatnot.

I disagree with your balance list pretty strongly in a few areas after both playing against and playing AS the various classes in tourney’s and from spending probably an obscenely large amount of time watching streams from players of various classes and various teams.

Mesmer – 9
At least. The class can do no wrong. It’s one of the best node controllers, support classes, roamers and duelists and never requires a trait change. Change portal to null field or back as needed and that’s the only change that ever needs to occur to fill any of those team roles. Best class in the game hands down. Also probably the only class in the game that I’ve played where I really don’t need to pay attention to, nor care what my opponent does. Sure I watch for something to dodge and all but for the most part I can and do run through my exact same execution to drop a bunker as I do a roamer as I do a “support/balanced” character. It just really doesn’t matter much at all. The only reason I wouldn’t rate playing my mesmer as mind numbingly simple as playing my thief is that it does actually require weapon swaps and a rotation of multiple abilities. My thief requires 3 keys to drop someone and 2 of those could be tied to a macro if I were so inclined.

Ele – 3 OR 8
Purely depending on player skill. At top level of play the class is insane mode. It can achieve amazing feats that almost single handedly carry a team to victory. When it’s not played to perfection however it’s power drops off dramatically until it’s almost a waste of a team slot.

Engi’s and necros are both very similar to ranking of the ele. The difference in team contribution and power rating are so very depending on player skill that visually it’s more of a skill CLIFF than a skill curve. Those 3 classes (ele, engi, necro) are probably the skill-to-power model that should be applied to every class imho.

Warriors – 3
Good for SPvP zerg stomping and WvWvW zerg stomping. Complete kitten in competitive play. Sorry warrior fans, but you’re dragging your team down and if highly skilled would be accomplishing far more on a better class with that skill than you do by handicapping yourself on a “meh” class.

I don’t think Mesmers are as overboard as you think they are. The Mesmer Shatter combo is pretty easy to avoid in a 1v1. The phantasm builds are basically non-existent now. However, they have annoyingly good survivability – and the addition of portal and time warp makes them excellent team fighters. Overall, they have a ton of utility. I probably could have rated them a 7.

I wouldn’t put Ele at an 8 in the hands of a good player. Certainly they have one of the highest skill caps in the game, but even so, I would put them at a 6. That being, very strong, but not abusing silly mechanics to victory (like the guardian block bug).

Same thing goes with Engy and Necro.

I still think Warriors are viable in competitive play, unless you can give a valid reason otherwise other than just calling them a “meh” class…

Why would your amount of tPvP wins mean anything when you’ve probably played premade against pug in most of them?

Also, if Anet will not balance for pugs and casuals, the interest in their game will drop and reduce its success as a popular esport. People will not follow competitive play for a game in which they think profession balance sucks. Succeeding at being an esport is directly proportional to the number of people who enjoy the PvP in their game.

thieves ARE OP.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Thiefs-Discussion-Thread-Merged/first

thanks.

Traverse.2315:

(…) I think for Mesmers, a reduced radius on Time Warp would be fair, and increase the cooldown on Portal. (…)

What do you feel about Moa? locking someone for 10 seconds isn’t it a bit too long?

In a game where it’s hard to get over 25k hp without sacrificing other things like Toughness, Precision, or Power, a skill that does over 10k damage is OP.

Sorry. Don’t get used to it.

HB hits for 16k why aren’t you whining about it then? Thieves with wet paper cannon builds have 14k HP, do the math.

Hundred Blades is like a channeled skill. Backstab is a 1 hit wonder. Big difference in reaction times.

On my necromancer with almost 30K health and 2300 toughness, I sometimes still get taken down by backstab in a blink of an eye- it’s extremely frustrating. Thief is the only class I’ve had trouble with.

Volrath, 100b may hit hard, but they have to stand still to cast it, you’re braindead if you’re just standing there. While thief can move around (and have a permanent 15% movement speed with signet), it’s harder to see a backstab coming because you can steal+CnD+backstab before you finish renderring to the target you’re hitting.

OK, you want rational? Let’s be rational.

Currently in sPvP, most teams are very heavy on Thieves, Mesmers, Guardians and Warriors. To name a few. This is not always true of tPvP, especially the higher you go. But as mentioned earlier, such a tiny percentage of population even plays that, that frankly the developers shouldn’t give a tiny rat’s tail about it until the rest of the game is in perfect state, and maybe not even then. You don’t spend a lot of resources to appease a tiny percentage of the population, it just isn’t smart.

Now, when most teams are Thief x3, Mesmer x2, is it rational for developers to do nothing about it? Note, this does NOT mean that Thief and Mesmer are overpowered. This simply means they are grossly overplayed. Corollary of which is that other classes are grossly under-played. Can ANet rationally leave things as they are, without altering balance? Obviously, the answer is no.

Why not? Well, for one, because without variety, the games are boring and predictable. Plus nobody likes being downed in under 1 seconds by 2+ Thieves. It makes the game unfun. People stop playing. Game dies. And they put too much time and effort into this game, and did a fairly good job might I add, to let that happen.

So, what are the choices? Rationally speaking? Nerf Thieves. And/or buff the unpopular classes. I mean, why do you think Eles and Engis are so underplayed? Personally I feel they grossly lack “bang for your buck”. A poorly played Thief or Mesmer is still several orders of magnitude more effective than poorly played Elementalist or Engineer. So, either Thief gameplay needs to be made more complex – which might mean changing the way initiative recovers or functions, adding cooldowns on top of initiative, etc. Or it might mean making Elementalist and Engineer easier to play, which means buffing individual abilities and toning down the importance of attunement-switching.

Whichever route they take, it will be either a direct nerf to Thief, or an indirect one – by making other classes stronger, thus making Thief relatively weaker.

You wanted rational? This is rational.

i personally feel that backstab does way too much damage, that being said, outside of backstab thieves are fine and were fine even before the pistol whip nerf. also something i have noticed is that when i play Spvp i frequently see puffs of black smoke where a thief is about o leave stealth or happens to cross my path in stealth. i have had no issue at all in preparing my self for a thieves OMG WTF burst. i build for that and other super burst abilites (to survive against them).

so again outside of Backstab i personally feel thieves are over all balanced. 10k damage in one swing is not balanced regardless of the setup involved. even a 100b warrior or shatter mesmer has to swing multiple times or time a shatter to get maximum effect both of which can be countered by smart dodging.

a thief coming from behind you can open up and hit upwards of 10k + hits. more if you build for hp instead of toughness. i think that if you reduce that damage to 6-7k then it would be far more tolerable and pretty much fit in to what i believe would make it balanced.

also @Sabbathius a game that advertises its goals in becoming an Esport the only rational way to balance a game is by balancing via Tournaments. if that is not what your focus is then unfortunately you are going to be waiting in line.

In other games i have played PvP in all areas has taken a back seat to PVE/RAIDs and even crafting in some cases. because the games is designed for those players from the beginning. and many times i have been irritated at something in regards to pvp when a random person would come in and say “this is a PVE game go play a pvp game if you want balance.”

Well i have taken that advice and I am here playing GW2 with the intention of playing PvP. the strange part is that when they do balance for TPVP it will become more balanced for hotjoin. hot join matches make some minor imbalances seem bigger than what they are since the teams are too large.

honestly the hotjoin matches should never have been 8v8 and should have stuck with the 5v5 format that would go a long way to balancing hotjoin matches.

NaZ.1457:

Traverse, I think you over-simplify a lot of stuff in for the sake of being concise.

The reason why Thieves are OP is that there are no player-induced (Read: skill) counters to a well played thief.

Consider:
- they can ALWAYS escape to heal.
- they have on demand, 100% damage mitigation in the form of stealth. Even block/invuls/shields pale in comparison, as stealth forces the other player to retarget (exceeding difficult considering how absurdly many classes have pets, including thieves), while other class’s abilities don’t force retargetting. Either way, every fight a thief enjoys many extra seconds of no incoming damage, and there is NO COUNTER.
- they get an upper hand at the start of most fights, all if played properly. Stealth combined with “backstab-like” abilities is not something that can really be countered in a skilled match. You can’t counter what you can’t see – and even if you get lucky dodge/AoE guessing, 5 seconds later you’d have to do it again. NO REAL COUNTER.
- stealth executes are priceless, and better than stability (ie. no dmg taken from downed opponent). There is NO COUNTER to stealth execute.
- thieves are impossible to kite. If they are ever crippled, they go stealth – completely eradicating any hope of doing damage while kiting – which is a ranged class’s only hope. They have multiple teleports/leaps, and only an elementalist burning cooldowns can really get away. Otherwise, NO COUNTER.
- downed teleport is an incredible skill – and saves more thieves (and mezmers) than any other downed ability. It always takes longer to finish them (even for ranged classes). This pays off huge when defending points, waiting for backup, etc. Again, there is NO COUNTER to this.

On a spreadsheet, thief abilities don’t seem over-powered. But it is the one class that has NO COUNTERS when played properly.

Defending thieves by saying “groups can target and burst them at the start of fights” is not a counter, or balance. Any class, regardless of being OP, can be group bursted at the start of fights. That’s really not the point, but identifying that as an option really suggests there they have no gameplay-based COUNTER.

You could have just typed “I dont know what I’m talking about!” in all caps and saved me 5 minutes of my life.

Let’ kitten these apart 1 by 1, in order of hilarity.

“- they have on demand, 100% damage mitigation in the form of stealth. " – This is like typing “Stupid Bunker guardians, always bursting me down” IE, it makes no sense. Anyone who’s played the game more than 10 minutes understands how stealth works, and its not as you described. Any attack will hit a stealthed thief, you just can’t target them. The idea that Block/invuln pales in comparison to STEALTH is laughable, and shows your inexperience.

“thieves are impossible to kite. If they are ever crippled, they go stealth " – You’re obviously unaware how a thief achieves stealth in this game. We only have a few buttons that say “No conditions attached, here’s some stealth”. Hide in shadows (one of our heals) and blinding powder (on a 60s CD) are it, more or less (there are steal stealths too, but those can’t be relied upon). Other ways require being in melee range and hitting a 6 init attack, or Using black powder/heartseeker (9 Init), so No, thieves arent “always going stealth” on you while you’re kiting. You are lying, or bad.

“- they get an upper hand at the start of most fights, all if played properly. " – Armed with the above knowledge (you know, about how stealth actually works and not the fairy tale version of stealth you believe thieves have to compensate for your inability to play), its very rare a thief will approach you unawares in stealth – you’ll almost always see them coming. If a thief stealths near you react accordingly – it only lasts 3s (4 if traited).

“- downed teleport is an incredible skill” Downed teleport is an incredible skill, to keep the thief from getting stomped. It offers nothing in team support however; a thief cant knock an opponent off a stomp/revival in the way warrior, engi, necro, ranger and guardian can. It’s a trade off. The counter to ground teleport is another teleport skill (Which admittedly, not every class has) which can be used mid stomp to teleport you to your now staked thief.

“- stealth executes are priceless, and better than stability (ie. no dmg taken from downed opponent). There is NO COUNTER to stealth execute.” – I’m going to take a guess and say you live in a world of 1 v 1’s, because I Can’t imagine anyone who would prefer stealth to stability for stomping, Don’t get me wrong, stealth is nice, it just doesn’t have a thing on stability stomping in most non 1 on 1 situations.

Its like you’ve never played this game before, and you’re just parroting things you’ve read on the boards.

Merciless.5349:

Hundred Blades is like a channeled skill. Backstab is a 1 hit wonder. Big difference in reaction times.

A HB you just look at some one and use it, BS you need to get in melee range (with 14k HP) get stealthed, move behind him and use the signet + BS. if the target moves, dodges or simply turns around there goes the BS down the drain.

Diferent reaction times?! after i told you the setup a thief needs to pull out a BS I think the target has a lot more time to avoid a BS than HB.

can you tell the difference now?

If this is a balance wish list, then I’d like to see:

- Thieves stealth render bug fixed – I don’t care if they can do high dmg (though everyone else should be able to do comparable dmg in a comparable spec – which is not the case atm), I just want to be able to see them so I can actually fight them when they start nuking me instead of popping CD after CD while kiting waiting for them to finally come out of stealth.

- AI toned down significantly – It’s called PvP for a reason. Not PvP+AI. I understand that pets and whatnot are substantially engrained into the game at this point but there’s no reason for them to be doing as much dmg and control as they are at the moment. Biggest culprits: Guardian Spirit Weapons, Mesmer Phantasms (though they at least die easily), Thief Elite – Thieves Guild. Either tone down their offense significantly or give everyone more endurance and reduce it for every pet summoned. 2x dodges ain’t enough, yo!

- Mesmer, Guardian, Thief – there’s a reason every high end premade is comprised of at least one of each. The other 2 slots are up for grabs but if you want to keep your chances of winning optimal then you base your group comp around these 3 classes. I shouldn’t have to state how 3 classes out of 8 being a must for competitive PvP is unbalanced.

There’s a lot of ways to bunker Engineer, I’m curious which ones people find most or least effective. I definitely agree they’re not as good as bunker guardians. I’m not sure about bunker elementalist, I hardly see them.

I bunker engineer with flamethrower, elixir gun and tool-kit and do quite well. In a 1v1 against a bunker guardian at clocktower with no trebuchet interruption, I can easily keep the guardian off the point. Especially if I swap to Elixir X.

Psychrome.9281:

i personally feel that backstab does way too much damage, that being said, outside of backstab thieves are fine and were fine even before the pistol whip nerf. also something i have noticed is that when i play Spvp i frequently see puffs of black smoke where a thief is about o leave stealth or happens to cross my path in stealth. i have had no issue at all in preparing my self for a thieves OMG WTF burst. i build for that and other super burst abilites (to survive against them).

so again outside of Backstab i personally feel thieves are over all balanced. 10k damage in one swing is not balanced regardless of the setup involved. even a 100b warrior or shatter mesmer has to swing multiple times or time a shatter to get maximum effect both of which can be countered by smart dodging.

a thief coming from behind you can open up and hit upwards of 10k + hits. more if you build for hp instead of toughness. i think that if you reduce that damage to 6-7k then it would be far more tolerable and pretty much fit in to what i believe would make it balanced.

Actually, I believe thieves could use a tiny bit of a buff in other areas. I think one of the reasons that thieves spec the cheese builds is because other options are generally less compelling.

That said, thieves are unbuffable until some of their burst gets toned down.