Legion of Doom [LOD]
A Summary of the Scene 1 Year in
Legion of Doom [LOD]
“For the past year, Arenanet has been patting themselves on the back for building GW2’s PvP, ignoring how players feel about the state of the game and seemingly pretending that the competitive scene is healthy, when it is not.
Despite reassurances that PvP was a major focus in the studio, at launch it lacked basic features needed for it to be successful as a competitive game. After half a year of waiting, we got the absolute minimum needed for the competitive scene to even exist: private servers, spectator mode, leaderboards. Despite the immense value of a replay system to competitive games, the developers said they had no plans to implement it, because shoutcasting is esports and we should just be happy to watch it live.
They patted themselves on the back and told us to look at everything they’ve done for us. We can have esports now! And all was well for a short while: teams were getting back together, BLU and Grouch started shoutcasting, a competitive scene looked like it was growing. Players still wanted to see some changes, suggestions were made, top players posted on the forums, but rarely did Arenanet respond.
As a side note, during this time, the State of the Game stream was happening each month. Developers would sit down with select high-level players on a stream and discuss the current condition of PvP. It was a great opportunity for Arenanet to connect with the community, but instead it ended up being a joke. Future plans were never discussed, just small balance changes that players might see. It was repeatedly cut short because the developers apparently had better things to do than talk to us about their game.
Then the Dhuumfire patch hit. In and of itself, the patch wasn’t bad. It made one of the worst PvP classes viable, while laying groundwork for the other terrible class, Warrior, to become viable as well. What Arenanet ignored, however, was how it affected the scene.
The meta shifted from high burst to heavy condition AOE. Arenanet cannot be held at fault for this, they do not have a crystal ball to predict how the players will respond to any changes they make. However, their failure to try and correct the harm this meta has done to the game and the competitive scene has been the driving force for many players to leave.
The current meta is not fun for players. It’s 100% crowd control and condition damage. Most teams are running spirit rangers and dhuumfire/terror necromancers, which are incredibly low skill but also incredibly powerful. Strategy has devolved to putting a spirit ranger on home or far, a bunker on mid, and just roaming with spamming as much as possible. Mesmers can’t handle conditions, so they are not run and there are no clutch portal plays. There are no high skill elementalists pulling off amazing combo chains. Even engineers are disappearing because there are stronger classes that are easier to play. No Teldo-style nodefighting.
And thus, the current meta is even worse for spectators. There is nothing to watch but a bunch of players running at each other until only one team’s players are left. There is nothing visual about condition spam. Nothing to see, nothing to watch, no entertainment. While competitive players have been making posts on the forums about how awful the current meta is for them, shoutcasters have been making posts about how it is even worse for them and their viewers. And they are right.
No responses from Arenanet. Not one single post acknowledging that anything is amiss.
Then comes the train wreck that was the PAX invitational. They announced it with short notice, so teams could not adequately plan or prepare. They decided to run the qualifiers at the same time as LCS and the International, so stream viewership was poor. Somewhere communication broke down between Arenanet, the tournament organizers at Mistleague, and the teams playing, resulting in Team Curse getting disqualified. This meant Car Crash would be going, after their players went on a massive, immature, and unprofessional rant on the forums about having to play a Best of 5 against Curse in the qualifiers despite that being the rules they agreed to.
The PAX game itself was underwhelming, it was put on the tail end of big PvE and WvW announcements, but Arenanet said nothing about PvP.
We want communication from Arenanet. Players feel ignored, and the PvP community is falling apart because of it. For over a year now Arenanet has refused to take us seriously, they have refused to acknowledge that anything is wrong, and every day we have to sit there and watch them congratulate themselves on developing their amazing eSport while Solo Queue is dying, Team Queue is dead, top players are leaving at an alarming rate, and pretty much everyone is unhappy with the current state of affairs.
And then there’s the terrible PvP rewards. But that would take another whole post to go through."
Legion of Doom [LOD]
(edited by errant.9843)
A couple days old but Helseth’s Rant of the Week is a great one describing the problems with this meta: http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/c/2831244
Legion of Doom [LOD]
I read through all of this and teared up a little.. =/
Is it over? …. Can anet still snap back?
So far the only ideas that surface for improvement are coming from the pve community; Let’s put in a 20v20 mode!
Guess what; Pvp has no rewards so your zerg fest will be just as unpopular as 8v8 zergfest mode.
We need stronger leaders and community organizers; we need to end the amount of toxic/sarcasm posts which fill the forums ending real discussions. All we have to do is make a mantra like the pve’rs have done and just keep repeating it
“PVP is dead! Put in gvg! Pvp is Dead! Put in gvg!”
As far as I can tell 20v20 is going to happen
It’s funny we can sit here and make troll responses all day, but look through the wvwvw forums for a second,
FILLED with Devs
FILLED with promises of things to come even if they might not be able to deliver
FILLED with optimism
guildwars2 is going to become pve/Zergwarfare only soon.
We’re losing, we need to regroup and strike back not take pot shots at each other with petty sarcasm.
Edit: gee this looks stupid now that those posts above were removed..
Its obvious by now that pvp is done, they put too litle resources into it and it failed, i very much doubt theyll be willing to put in anymore but the bare minimum after this. It seems to me like the top guys in Anet never really cared enough about pvp to begin with judging from what i saw at pax.
I stopped playing 6 months ago and just checked back in every few months to see what has changed and it looks like its worse now then it was then. Back then people complained about ele and mesmer wich are now considered as classes that actualy take some skill compared to what is strong now, its funny but sad too.
To be honest the most fun i had in this game was in the days of paids 8 team tournys even tho that concept was very flawed what they gave us after that was even worse.
(edited by guza.6170)
We don’t get many responses in this forum because it’s even whinier than the wvw forum, if that’s possible. Constructive posts are all it takes, but it’s all aboard the QQ train here in spvp land.
If people want answers to questions, they need to stop asking loaded questions.
Another perspective..
I want to express is that so many peope really wish this game to be the thing they are looking forward to paying for years to come.
The loyal guildwars players hanging around filling their HoM, still playing AB and FA in anticipation for the epic prequel we have been waiting for for years and were patient enough to accept the developers wish to release it when it’s finished.
Those people are the people who saw guildwars as the best pvp game in its genre and time and believed guildwars2 to not let them down.
At first glance it didn’t.. WvW was exciting, pvp seemed fun, though everyone was wondering what happend to all the different gamemodes and where our guildhalls have gone.. and what happened to guild vs guild..
But who cared we have World vs World now! Surely it would compensate for the ‘lost’ gamemodes and the original pvp setting what made guildwars so great..
The professions were exciting and the different weapons fun to use.. dude i have 2 freaking daggers on my necro!!! OMGBBQ right..!!
But then slowly but surely the shorcomings of the game started creaping up…
People buying computers with the recommended specs realized they needed a heavier machine..
WvW became stale doing the same old round and the setup of the game created a gamemode called zerg.. hackers, the mentality of players and the need to grind to be able to experiment with builds and being able to afford armor or repairs contributed to it..
Culling came along, lag set in, skillag set in… The zerg grew bigger skillbase plummeted to the point where who could muster the most people on autoattack would dominate.
People abandoned WvW and tried their hand on sPvP.. more problems and frustrations arose, mostly to do with the changes attributed to making the game an E-sport and with that mindset listening to the “top” players demanding every possible feature implemented in either starcraft, counterstrike or Dota/LoL..w.e. to accomodate their corner of pvp based on ranking and preforming (i.e. grinding)
A-net tried their best to accomodate these player and to be fair did a good job.
meanwhile the WvW dissapointed ones are stuck between a rock and a hard place. wondering what to do and end up chasing dragons.(and writing on the forum.)
with one of the biggest questions lingering in the back of their head.. where were our beloved guildwars gamemodes.?
Oh yeah…That leaves the bottom half of the pvp community who only come to visit because there is a free laurel in it for them.
E.A.D.
I think the devs care about pvp…
I think they actually believe what they say when they say
“we want people to think of this as the game you go to for PVP”
Why do I think that?
I know they put in the time to play their own game..
I saw John Sharp playing Eu solo que for a week straight, Stalker-status
(Through the leaderboards =D but that account has been moved? now)
These forums have become utterly toxic to dev replies though; one reply by Allie M. = kittennado,
One Reply by Jon S,= Kittenstorm the like of which has never been seen since /b/astards walked the earth.
I’m sure they care just as much as the rest of us playing pvp..
I don’t think you go into game design cause you want to make money
I think you go in there because you care; and cause it’s the coolest job in the world.
And their reward is what? a whole forum seething with hate?
So what happends now? How can the devs even make a post on this forum anymore?
It’s up to us as the pvp community as a whole to grow up, stop making troll posts, focus all our energy into 1 or two issues discuss it thoroughly in one thread constructively and lobby for a fix.
Why? Because;
“Short and long term goals which will go unnamed” sounds like the resources for pvp development are going to pve+ and nothing new is coming.
Unless you like zerg warfare.
We don’t get many responses in this forum because it’s even whinier than the wvw forum, if that’s possible. Constructive posts are all it takes, but it’s all aboard the QQ train here in spvp land.
If people want answers to questions, they need to stop asking loaded questions.
I think the devs care about pvp…
I think they actually believe what they say when they say
“we want people to think of this as the game you go to for PVP”Why do I think that?
I know they put in the time to play their own game..
I saw John Sharp playing Eu solo que for a week straight, Stalker-status
(Through the leaderboards =D but that account has been moved? now)These forums have become utterly toxic to dev replies though; one reply by Allie M. = kittennado,
One Reply by Jon S,= Kittenstorm the like of which has never been seen since /b/astards walked the earth.
I’m sure they care just as much as the rest of us playing pvp..
I don’t think you go into game design cause you want to make money
I think you go in there because you care; and cause it’s the coolest job in the world.
And their reward is what? a whole forum seething with hate?So what happends now? How can the devs even make a post on this forum anymore?
It’s up to us as the pvp community as a whole to grow up, stop making troll posts, focus all our energy into 1 or two issues discuss it thoroughly in one thread constructively and lobby for a fix.
Why? Because;
“Short and long term goals which will go unnamed” sounds like the resources for pvp development are going to pve+ and nothing new is coming.
Unless you like zerg warfare.
I completely agree with you guys about keeping things civil and constructive. And I agree that most if not all of the devs care greatly for this game. I’ve seen some pretty childish and even nasty posts in reply to devs and other players, and I haven’t even really strolled these forums much. The devs do not deserve this, and the players don’t either.
However, from what I’ve heard many players have been posting very constructive posts since launch or even beta and have been ignored. I don’t know how true or accurate this is, because as I said, I don’t watch these forums as much as others, but I think this would partly be what is causing people to get frustrated.
However, from what I’ve heard many players have been posting very constructive posts since launch or even beta and have been ignored. I don’t know how true or accurate this is, because as I said, I don’t watch these forums as much as others, but I think this would partly be what is causing people to get frustrated.
A lot of people like to imagine they’re being constructive. In turn, I like to imagine they’re bright enough to know why they’re not actually getting responses to their ‘constructive’ threads, but that may be overly optimistic.
I cried a little.
later. It doesn’t care that I’m there.”
I think the devs care about pvp…
I think they actually believe what they say when they say
“we want people to think of this as the game you go to for PVP”Why do I think that?
I know they put in the time to play their own game..
I saw John Sharp playing Eu solo que for a week straight, Stalker-status
(Through the leaderboards =D but that account has been moved? now)These forums have become utterly toxic to dev replies though; one reply by Allie M. = kittennado,
One Reply by Jon S,= Kittenstorm the like of which has never been seen since /b/astards walked the earth.
I’m sure they care just as much as the rest of us playing pvp..
I don’t think you go into game design cause you want to make money
I think you go in there because you care; and cause it’s the coolest job in the world.
And their reward is what? a whole forum seething with hate?So what happends now? How can the devs even make a post on this forum anymore?
It’s up to us as the pvp community as a whole to grow up, stop making troll posts, focus all our energy into 1 or two issues discuss it thoroughly in one thread constructively and lobby for a fix.
Why? Because;
“Short and long term goals which will go unnamed” sounds like the resources for pvp development are going to pve+ and nothing new is coming.
Unless you like zerg warfare.
Darnis,
you’re really too genuine.
After 1 year of listening ( if this could be called listening) to the wrong opinions, buffing wrong stuff, nerfing the wrong stuff, without changing core design features such Hotjoin which totally detracts from skillful play and rewards bad habits, without rehauling the reward system which is clearly wrong and badly implemented….
Anyone would be angry.
I’m too, but i’m not raging. But not everyone is the same.
They get what they deserve, because his time, they totally screwed up.
The moment when people like Follidus and Xeph quit the game, you know you’ve failed hard.
It’s funny we can sit here and make troll responses all day, but look through the wvwvw forums for a second,
FILLED with Devs
FILLED with promises of things to come even if they might not be able to deliver
FILLED with optimismguildwars2 is going to become pve/Zergwarfare only soon.
We’re losing, we need to regroup and strike back not take pot shots at each other with petty sarcasm.Edit: gee this looks stupid now that those posts above were removed..
Not true (about the WvW forums). Because of the recent announcement of the WvW Leagues, the forum has exploded in anger. Most of the posts with dev replies are ones where the dev is defending this new League (despite the fact that every single person but him can see that it’s a terrible idea). There is literally zero optimism in the WvW forum.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/JonPeters-and-other-Devs/first#post2757550
constructive responses would be appreciated, but take a read whats your take on this?
Just remember when ArenaNet said one year ago that all e-sports, even League of Legends, took time to build. But those games were on an upward trend from the start. The same can’t be said for Guild Wars 2’s structured PvP, which is now undergoing a downward spiral at every level of play.
Errant – You or whoever wrote that nailed it, absolutely spot on. If this was a marriage, after all the broken promises and now the stale state of the game, I’d think anet are at the point of denial before the divorce begins.
Good read, thanks for posting and best you keep a copy of it before they try and sugar coat the forums.
Errant – You or whoever wrote that nailed it, absolutely spot on. If this was a marriage, after all the broken promises and now the stale state of the game, I’d think anet are at the point of denial before the divorce begins.
Good read, thanks for posting and best you keep a copy of it before they try and sugar coat the forums.
I was not the one who made that specific post on reddit, but it summarized my feelings and some of my other posts very well. Hope we can get some more discussion of this going!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/JonPeters-and-other-Devs/first#post2757550
constructive responses would be appreciated, but take a read whats your take on this?
My thoughts are that the Devs definitely have our best intentions at heart, but we still don’t have any specifics about their plans going forwards,. Nor do we have any evidence that they’re being given adequate design resources to accomplish significant goals. The PvE community gets at least FOUR design teams in order to push content out every 2 weeks. Why can’t sPvP get at least a FRACTION of that level of commitment in design resources?
Legion of Doom [LOD]