Guild Wars 2

Please make bunkers less able to survive SOLO.

Its boring to play. Its boring to watch.

Make bunkers and bursts less good and lets have some fun balanced pvp.

+1

/15char

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

It’s not the bunker that’s the issue, it’s the way the game type is setup.

Simply put, the way in which the capture system is designed is wrong, it needs to be changed so if you have more players than the other team on the point – you start capping the point.

Constantly nerfing a build will not fix the issue, adjusting the capture system will.

Yeah all bunker builds should rely on multiple enemies to proc reactive. Just 1v1 every bunker should get stomped. Period. The PvP in this game is no longer fun because of this boring kitten Bunker/Roamer meta.

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

+1 to this.
Fight should be longer, just like Guild Wars was. A nerf to the overall bursting/bunking capability will surely move the meta to a more balanced one.

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

but old GW is not capture points, amirite? i mean there are capture points mechanics but it is not the focus.

MajorMelchett.6042:

It’s not the bunker that’s the issue, it’s the way the game type is setup.

Simply put, the way in which the capture system is designed is wrong, it needs to be changed so if you have more players than the other team on the point – you start capping the point.

Constantly nerfing a build will not fix the issue, adjusting the capture system will.

That won’t change the problem either.

It will only lead to teams comps shifting into 3-2 ( with a double bunker + necro or triple bunker) or 4-1, with 3 or 4 going to the center.

Bunker would rule even more supreme, since glass crap will be beaten in a second and won’t be able to contest the point, since in a “moar person = point captured” the more you can stand in there, with more people, the more you’re going to capture.

This game needs huge nerfs on bunker-burst maximizing.

Bunker guards/ele and shatter mesmer/ D/D or S/P thieves and all burst needs to be toned down, along with haste.

Basically, all bunkers should be like necro and warriors and enges , and all burst should be around a ranger spamming rapid fire.

Then you’ll see balanced builds popping up like mushrooms, and the game will FINALLY be fun both to play and to watch.

alcopaul.2156:

but old GW is not capture points, amirite?

Some modes were about capturing the points, like Forgotten Shrines in HA.
Anyway that’s another point about GW2 PvP. Just one gamemode is ridiculous.

sorrow.2364:

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

+1 to this.
Fight should be longer, just like Guild Wars was. A nerf to the overall bursting/bunking capability will surely move the meta to a more balanced one.

longer? why should you want it to be longer? the current system is ok. or give it a time limit and the one that has the highest score when the time is up is the winner.

sorrow.2364:

alcopaul.2156:

but old GW is not capture points, amirite?

Some modes were about capturing the points, like Forgotten Shrines in HA.
Anyway that’s another point about GW2 PvP. Just one gamemode is ridiculous.

they want it to be an esport and having different game modes will make the game not consistent and not esport material.

if you notice the esports games they have a single game mode.

alcopaul.2156:

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

but old GW is not capture points, amirite? i mean there are capture points mechanics but it is not the focus.

This means nothing. Even with conquest mode, it’s all down to the build.

A conquest mode where a bunker is not able to hold a point 1vsX the whole fight is a lot more entertaining to play and to watch.

edit:

A match in LoL lasts for half an hour, and it isn’t one of the most followed e-sport out there, isn’t it ?

/sarcasm

MajorMelchett.6042:

It’s not the bunker that’s the issue, it’s the way the game type is setup.

Simply put, the way in which the capture system is designed is wrong, it needs to be changed so if you have more players than the other team on the point – you start capping the point.

Constantly nerfing a build will not fix the issue, adjusting the capture system will.

Well that would be a decent fix too. Still bunkers should suck 1 v1 not be unkillable 1 v 1

Mrbig.8019:

MajorMelchett.6042:

It’s not the bunker that’s the issue, it’s the way the game type is setup.

Simply put, the way in which the capture system is designed is wrong, it needs to be changed so if you have more players than the other team on the point – you start capping the point.

Constantly nerfing a build will not fix the issue, adjusting the capture system will.

That won’t change the problem either.

It will only lead to teams comps shifting into 3-2 ( with a double bunker + necro or triple bunker) or 4-1, with 3 or 4 going to the center.

Bunker would rule even more supreme, since glass crap will be beaten in a second and won’t be able to contest the point, since in a “moar person = point captured” the more you can stand in there, with more people, the more you’re going to capture.

This game needs huge nerfs on bunker-burst maximizing.

Bunker guards/ele and shatter mesmer/ D/D or S/P thieves and all burst needs to be toned down, along with haste.

Basically, all bunkers should be like necro and warriors and enges , and all burst should be around a ranger spamming rapid fire.

Then you’ll see balanced builds popping up like mushrooms, and the game will FINALLY be fun both to play and to watch.

Bunker warrior is perfect. Can die in a 1 v 1 but is surviable. This is what anet should go for or tpvp will die even more.

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

but old GW is not capture points, amirite? i mean there are capture points mechanics but it is not the focus.

A match in LoL lasts for half an hour, and it isn’t one of the most followed e-sport out there, isn’t it ?

/sarcasm

do you think that LoL lasting for half an hour is the sole reason that it is the one of the most followed e-sport out there?

The problem is that spvp and tpvp in particular is just flat out dull and terrible.

Sorry to say that.

WvW = amazing fun – diverse builds etc
PvE = amazing fun
TPvP = 2 bunkers on 2 points then 3 roamers between all game. Winner of 1 team fight wins the whole match.

aka = really terrible anti fun. You have to either change the system or seriously nerf bunker builds. Atm the whole thing is an out and out disaster

O and the whole “small changes” to balance and bunker/burst means this game wont be fun fro probably about 5 years. I would advise anyone who gets this game for spvp to not bother. The rest of the game is amazing though so congrats on that. Great game. spvp = a bad joke.

alcopaul.2156:

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

but old GW is not capture points, amirite? i mean there are capture points mechanics but it is not the focus.

A match in LoL lasts for half an hour, and it isn’t one of the most followed e-sport out there, isn’t it ?

/sarcasm

do you think that LoL lasting for half an hour is the sole reason that it is the one of the most followed e-sport out there?

That was to answer to you who said " the system is perfect, fights shouldn’t last longer".

Wrong.

the system is not perfect at all, and matches/fights lenght is not the problem.

the problem is that bunker-roamer meta is boring to watch, boring for the vast majority of PvP population ( that’s why paid teams are so few), boring to watch for those who’re not interested.

A football match is always interesting ( unless you totally hate the game) even for those who are not really interested in it, due to the big theorycrafting behind the match understanding, due to the schemes coaches use to counter each other, due to indivdual skill of players, due to the capability of players to play as a team.

in GW2, the whole first part is totally non existant: the meta is stagnant, due to bunkers and roamers being BY FAR better than other builds.

It’s like if in football every team ran with 4-4-2, with players of the same capabilities, with all the same schemes.

Boring.

The concept of “bunker” isn’t something particular to guild wars, its just that a lot of survival/self-sufficiency has shifted onto the players instead of godly healers bestowing their heals upon others to bloat gameplay matches. Even in those games, making a healer capable of being downed in 1v1 scenarios puts their viability into question given that team fights involve coordinated pressure/CC. If healers don’t have the capability to heal themselves against one player, how can they possibly heal against these attacks? Balance with healers is always a tenuous shift between damage overpowering healing in which condition/dots/heavy offense burst or pressure cleave train comps rule supreme, or healing out-pacing pressure where “burst windows” are needed to take players down.

Same thing would probably happen in GW2 if bunkers are brought down to the point of being downed by one player(which can still happen). How in the world are they going to survive people stack heavy offensive pressure/cleave comps and that melt individuals in coordinated burst?

Its not like everyone in guild wars 2 runs burst or complete glass builds to succeed. There “are” balanced builds that are viable with some classes, its just that certain classes have stronger attributes by design. Anet doesn’t need to chop their game for all the melodramatic forum warriors contributing their “wisdom”, they just need to do some hard balancing. A lot of utilities and traits are crap, and aren’t in line with how the current game operates. If any class should be a yardstick for design, look at guardian.

If Anet immediately nerfed defensive and offensive builds at the same time…does anyone know what kind of game we’d have? I can’t predict that. This thread is talking about a massive nerf to dozens of skills and traits across all professions. Maybe it would be great, I don’t know—but let’s think it through, yes?

Sure, bunkers can be frustrating. Yes, the game would be more exciting to watch if it weren’t profitable to stand guard over a point. Yes, most tournament teams bring at least one bunker, sometimes two, occasionally three (those teams lose). That doesn’t mean the “best thing to do” would be to scrap everything in a giant nerf and start over.

alcopaul.2156:

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

but old GW is not capture points, amirite? i mean there are capture points mechanics but it is not the focus.

A match in LoL lasts for half an hour, and it isn’t one of the most followed e-sport out there, isn’t it ?

/sarcasm

do you think that LoL lasting for half an hour is the sole reason that it is the one of the most followed e-sport out there?

I think Counter Strike is still the biggest e-sport. I have no idea why its lasted as long as it has, but that is only played with one game mode, but it does often end up a death match.

GW2 kinda reminds me a little of Dawn of War with the capture points being the main way to win, but that was a different type of game. GW2 would suit a smaller arena style for its basis, then you can add other modes for more fun, but keep the arena for the e-sports.

There is just something about a small team, single elimination match that just works.

Hell I would even pop in a 1v1 mini tournament style, just as a way for people to learn their class in a controlled manner (IE no zergs), plus learn other classes better.

You can have lots of modes, just use one for the main competition.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Please make bunkers less able to survive SOLO.

Its boring to play. Its boring to watch.

Make bunkers and bursts less good and lets have some fun balanced pvp.

…bunkers point of view

As long as I can dodge..you won’t hit
As long as you use predictable attack patterns…you won’t hit me but I’ll hit you back
As long as you spamm attacks without thinking..you will lose
As long as you won’t learn each profession weakness..you will lose

…bursters point of view

As long as I can hit you…you will die quickly
As long as you don’t dodge…I will hit you
As long as you don’t bring stun breaker…I will hit you easily
As long as you won’t recognise my skills animation…I will hit you far too easily

I’ve seen each profession burst down others and being burst down in return, I’ve seen each profession survive against impossible odds and still win…it all come downs to l2p issues…furthermore sometimes you have to rely on allies to accomplish something that’s how the game is designed, if each profession could do everything…there would be little point in playing

Arheundel.6451:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Please make bunkers less able to survive SOLO.

Its boring to play. Its boring to watch.

Make bunkers and bursts less good and lets have some fun balanced pvp.

…bunkers point of view

As long as I can dodge..you won’t hit
As long as you use predictable attack patterns…you won’t hit me but I’ll hit you back
As long as you spamm attacks without thinking..you will lose
As long as you won’t learn each profession weakness..you will lose

…bursters point of view

As long as I can hit you…you will die quickly
As long as you don’t dodge…I will hit you
As long as you don’t bring stun breaker…I will hit you easily
As long as you won’t recognise my skills animation…I will hit you far too easily

I’ve seen each profession burst down others and being burst down in return, I’ve seen each profession survive against impossible odds and still win…it all come downs to l2p issues…furthermore sometimes you have to rely on allies to accomplish something that’s how the game is designed, if each profession could do everything…there would be little point in playing

No most of the time since launch it has come down to dance left, twirl right, up up down down left right left right B A Start….BLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCK

But more recently is have become, dance left flip right, IWINBUTTON.

They truly just need to force the Bunkers to have multiple allies or multiple enemies around them constantly in order to remain Bunkery. Like Necro.

Wanna kill a Necro Bunker? Leave the point and let any attrition thief, ele, guardian, memser just solo him. You will win 100% of the time. It should be that way for every bunker. Without a group to fortify you, yer just an empty building. PERIOD

XiL.4318:

They truly just need to force the Bunkers to have multiple allies or multiple enemies around them constantly in order to remain Bunkery. Like Necro.

Wanna kill a Necro Bunker? Leave the point and let any attrition thief, ele, guardian, memser just solo him. You will win 100% of the time. It should be that way for every bunker. Without a group to fortify you, yer just an empty building. PERIOD

Like a shout warrior. There should be support and damage type builds. Not just total tanks which cannot be taken down.

Lordrosicky.5813:

XiL.4318:

They truly just need to force the Bunkers to have multiple allies or multiple enemies around them constantly in order to remain Bunkery. Like Necro.

Wanna kill a Necro Bunker? Leave the point and let any attrition thief, ele, guardian, memser just solo him. You will win 100% of the time. It should be that way for every bunker. Without a group to fortify you, yer just an empty building. PERIOD

Like a shout warrior. There should be support and damage type builds. Not just total tanks which cannot be taken down.

Anet can do that by buffing the traits/utilities related to this build within team scenarios IMO. Nerfing classes ability to mitigate damage will actually end up killing support if all you have to do is just cleave the crap out of points with AOE damage.

Imagine the Necro metagame now, but way worse.

condiments.8043:

Lordrosicky.5813:

XiL.4318:

They truly just need to force the Bunkers to have multiple allies or multiple enemies around them constantly in order to remain Bunkery. Like Necro.

Wanna kill a Necro Bunker? Leave the point and let any attrition thief, ele, guardian, memser just solo him. You will win 100% of the time. It should be that way for every bunker. Without a group to fortify you, yer just an empty building. PERIOD

Like a shout warrior. There should be support and damage type builds. Not just total tanks which cannot be taken down.

Anet can do that by buffing the traits/utilities related to this build within team scenarios IMO. Nerfing classes ability to mitigate damage will actually end up killing support if all you have to do is just cleave the crap out of points with AOE damage.

Imagine the Necro metagame now, but way worse.

Well I kind of actually don’t care how they do it.

It isn’t my job to fix the dullness of spvp in this game. They will have to find a way. I am calling the main problem being that bunker “indestructable” builds are both encouraged in the gameplay mechanic and way too hard to kill. I also think glass cannons have too much power. They need to make a game where more builds are viable. ATM only glass cannons and bunker builds – extremem builds which are not fun generally – are viable.

I dont care how they do it, but I do know that people are bored of pvp right now because its stagnant and based around bunker builds and glass cannons rather than around builds which can kill people and yet can be killed.

condiments.8043:

The concept of “bunker” isn’t something particular to guild wars, its just that a lot of survival/self-sufficiency has shifted onto the players instead of godly healers bestowing their heals upon others to bloat gameplay matches. Even in those games, making a healer capable of being downed in 1v1 scenarios puts their viability into question given that team fights involve coordinated pressure/CC. If healers don’t have the capability to heal themselves against one player, how can they possibly heal against these attacks? Balance with healers is always a tenuous shift between damage overpowering healing in which condition/dots/heavy offense burst or pressure cleave train comps rule supreme, or healing out-pacing pressure where “burst windows” are needed to take players down.

Same thing would probably happen in GW2 if bunkers are brought down to the point of being downed by one player(which can still happen). How in the world are they going to survive people stack heavy offensive pressure/cleave comps and that melt individuals in coordinated burst?

Its not like everyone in guild wars 2 runs burst or complete glass builds to succeed. There “are” balanced builds that are viable with some classes, its just that certain classes have stronger attributes by design. Anet doesn’t need to chop their game for all the melodramatic forum warriors contributing their “wisdom”, they just need to do some hard balancing. A lot of utilities and traits are crap, and aren’t in line with how the current game operates. If any class should be a yardstick for design, look at guardian.

If i’d ever think at a good benchmark to start the game from scraps, it would be the ele, not the guardian.

The ele can do anything, and it would be able to do everything with any weapon set they want, as long as they start nerfing that ridicolous scorch or overpoweredness D/D currently is, overshadowing any other set the ele would choose ( aside S/D for pure bunkering builds).

Their balance philosophy makes poor sense, also.

Example:

Thief:

if the thief is meant to be “the master of burst”, WHY DID YOU EVEN CREATED sets like S/D ( nerfed to hell) , D/P ( never been viable from the start) and P/P ?

With mobility and burst, also with conquest mode, don’t you ever think that ALL PLAYERS would go S/P or D/D in order to have a role in a team ?
(P/D and D/D condition is a niche role, altough very viable).

Another example:

Warrior:

the warrior is less tanky than a guardian, while not prviding any difference on damage or support ( the infamous meditation build + any consacration/shout you want comes at mind)

the warrior is less bursty than a thief, while not having the same mobility/escape capability if the burst goes wrong, neither having the same unpredictability ( popping from nowhere).

1/2 of warriors weapon simply make no sense, being severely subpar: longbow, rifle, OH sword, OH axe, OH mace.

Most of its utilities ( like banners, berserker stance or “on my mark” which is the most ridicolous one, lol) have no purpose, and altough shouts are quite good, the shout warrior doesn’t really achieve anything if not dying in a couple of mesmer’s shatters.

The thing saddening me the most is that it seems aNet wanted to polarize the professions into what they said into their balance phylosophy, instead of really trying to increase the number of viable builds: thieves polarized into burst (D/D or S/P) or conditions ( D/D or P/D), mesmers polarized into shattercrap, necro polarized into 30-30-10-0-0 build, eles polarized into D/D and so on.

At least, with huge nerfs to bunkers and burst, we could try again.

It’s very hard to get any worse than this.

Agree with MrBig on this one – the game needs nerfs to both burst and bunker to bring it closer to balance and make less extreme and more varied builds viable = more interesting fights that can ebb and flow. All classes should be able to win a 1v1 against any build, you should just have a bit better or worse chance to win depending on if you are playing the counter to your build. But … doesnt seem like the balance is going that way, or if it is, it wont get there till mid 2013 at the earliest. Sigh

What about this?

1) All professions get same level of HP
2) Stealth last max 5s and stealthed characters become visible when attacking and if they receive any sort of dmg while stealthed..or better remove stealth
3) Remove haste/quickness from the game
4) Lower burst of thief/mesmer/warrior by 50%
5) Protection dmg reduction is 15%
6) Reduce amount of defensive skills/traits on 1.guardian, 2. ele, 3. engineer, 4. necro
7) Pet professions( ranger/necro/mesmer) will either have less dmg in general or weak pets

For me as long as there are professions which can one-shot you in an instant with an easy to set up rotation available every 15s at most while still having access to the best defensive mechanism (stealth), I will keep investing in defense over offense

To people complaining about d/d eles…have you ever faced a staff or scepter/focus ele? In all honesty how easy is to avoid their attacks?
If you can answer that with an honest heart, you will understand why ele players use d/d.

Given the vast superiority of meles over ranged in this game, any attempt at using a staff will result you as ele being fully ganked by 2-3 thiefs/warriors and die in a second, your skills require your target to stay still for 4-5s ( no kidding)

In all truth, the all concept of ele d/d as OP is quite hilarious, just a couple of months ago, the ele was considered a free kill and everybody agreed on the fact that they did require some buffs.

The few buffs received( just 3) on d/d are nothing of OP, if anything the few eles left from September have mastered the set, the huge versality of the d/d set has guaranted an increase of quality of life for eles..in the end the truth is that people should be grateful to Anet for not giving the same versality of d/d to the other weapon sets..if not by now people would complain even more

sorrow.2364:

Mrbig.8019:

alcopaul.2156:

how do you even define “balanced”? i hear people all the time saying “balanced” but they don’t even describe what is this kitten called “balanced”.

and how do you craft this “balanced” build in a capture point pvp?

It’s rather easy.

Nerf bunkering capabilities, nerf burst capabilities.

The meta will shift to balanced/heavy dps pressure builds ( like the old GW) where burst will simply have a niche role as counter comps .

More build diversity, more entertaining to watch, since you don’t die in a fart/never die, but it’s always in a cycle where you don’t know who’s going to win the fight.

Easy.

+1 to this.
Fight should be longer, just like Guild Wars was. A nerf to the overall bursting/bunking capability will surely move the meta to a more balanced one.

I never played the original, but I agree. I don’t think it will ever happen though. The balance team have yet to address burst in any way as we receive balance patches, which leads me to believe they see no issue with the burst/defensive extremes in the game. Which is a shame, since my favorite fights/games are against players with balanced builds.

Mrbig.8019:

If i’d ever think at a good benchmark to start the game from scraps, it would be the ele, not the guardian.

The ele can do anything, and it would be able to do everything with any weapon set they want, as long as they start nerfing that ridicolous scorch or overpoweredness D/D currently is, overshadowing any other set the ele would choose ( aside S/D for pure bunkering builds).

Their balance philosophy makes poor sense, also.

Example:

Thief:

if the thief is meant to be “the master of burst”, WHY DID YOU EVEN CREATED sets like S/D ( nerfed to hell) , D/P ( never been viable from the start) and P/P ?

With mobility and burst, also with conquest mode, don’t you ever think that ALL PLAYERS would go S/P or D/D in order to have a role in a team ?
(P/D and D/D condition is a niche role, altough very viable).

Another example:

Warrior:

the warrior is less tanky than a guardian, while not prviding any difference on damage or support ( the infamous meditation build + any consacration/shout you want comes at mind)

the warrior is less bursty than a thief, while not having the same mobility/escape capability if the burst goes wrong, neither having the same unpredictability ( popping from nowhere).

1/2 of warriors weapon simply make no sense, being severely subpar: longbow, rifle, OH sword, OH axe, OH mace.

Most of its utilities ( like banners, berserker stance or “on my mark” which is the most ridicolous one, lol) have no purpose, and altough shouts are quite good, the shout warrior doesn’t really achieve anything if not dying in a couple of mesmer’s shatters.

The thing saddening me the most is that it seems aNet wanted to polarize the professions into what they said into their balance phylosophy, instead of really trying to increase the number of viable builds: thieves polarized into burst (D/D or S/P) or conditions ( D/D or P/D), mesmers polarized into shattercrap, necro polarized into 30-30-10-0-0 build, eles polarized into D/D and so on.

At least, with huge nerfs to bunkers and burst, we could try again.

It’s very hard to get any worse than this.

The only reason such things “polarized” is because other available operate adequately within the environment currently. I’d rather support Anet bugfixing or buffing traits and utilities so they can contribute to the game with new viable builds rather than nerf the solid ground for the vain hope people will consider less viable options. Ex. Thief burst getting nerfed won’t make them consider going to use traps over things shadow step, and shadow refuge. They’ll still suck.

Both elementalist and guardian can effectively run balanced, support, offensive and defensive related playstyles that the community claims to be non-existent. Guardians can effectively bunker, duelists and harasser with the right builds. I mean watch any PZ stream when its up, and take a look at the difference in playstyles between holly jolly and kaypud. Even elementalist, while a great class, still needs a ton of work in its trait lines and utilities(lol conjures).

Even thief, like you just said, have a couple viable options(I’m actually going to push my S/D build as soon as I get my team together). Its just in the current state of the game, damage modifiers in traits, itemization and utilities outweigh anything else a thief can bring to a team. All other options just aren’t very good in comparison, what can thief do support his team? There was the venom meta for a while(which was a WAYY worse situation imo), but there needs to be more. What could a trap thief bring to the table? What can they bring other than damage? Lets BUFF that.

What this game needs is a building of class options rather than some knee-jerk balance shift in the HOPE it gets better. That isn’t how good things are designed. Anet has a solid framework for things. Now its placing the rest of the pieces into the jigsaw.

Psikerlord.2569:

Agree with MrBig on this one – the game needs nerfs to both burst and bunker to bring it closer to balance and make less extreme and more varied builds viable = more interesting fights that can ebb and flow. All classes should be able to win a 1v1 against any build, you should just have a bit better or worse chance to win depending on if you are playing the counter to your build. But … doesnt seem like the balance is going that way, or if it is, it wont get there till mid 2013 at the earliest. Sigh

Sounds like you want to reduce variety to me, you want classes/builds to head even more to some homogenized center point where there are less options for full out defence or attack, this game already lacks variety class terms, reducing that even further just sounds really dull.

condiments.8043:

Mrbig.8019:

If i’d ever think at a good benchmark to start the game from scraps, it would be the ele, not the guardian.

The ele can do anything, and it would be able to do everything with any weapon set they want, as long as they start nerfing that ridicolous scorch or overpoweredness D/D currently is, overshadowing any other set the ele would choose ( aside S/D for pure bunkering builds).

Their balance philosophy makes poor sense, also.

Example:

Thief:

if the thief is meant to be “the master of burst”, WHY DID YOU EVEN CREATED sets like S/D ( nerfed to hell) , D/P ( never been viable from the start) and P/P ?

With mobility and burst, also with conquest mode, don’t you ever think that ALL PLAYERS would go S/P or D/D in order to have a role in a team ?
(P/D and D/D condition is a niche role, altough very viable).

Another example:

Warrior:

the warrior is less tanky than a guardian, while not prviding any difference on damage or support ( the infamous meditation build + any consacration/shout you want comes at mind)

the warrior is less bursty than a thief, while not having the same mobility/escape capability if the burst goes wrong, neither having the same unpredictability ( popping from nowhere).

1/2 of warriors weapon simply make no sense, being severely subpar: longbow, rifle, OH sword, OH axe, OH mace.

Most of its utilities ( like banners, berserker stance or “on my mark” which is the most ridicolous one, lol) have no purpose, and altough shouts are quite good, the shout warrior doesn’t really achieve anything if not dying in a couple of mesmer’s shatters.

The thing saddening me the most is that it seems aNet wanted to polarize the professions into what they said into their balance phylosophy, instead of really trying to increase the number of viable builds: thieves polarized into burst (D/D or S/P) or conditions ( D/D or P/D), mesmers polarized into shattercrap, necro polarized into 30-30-10-0-0 build, eles polarized into D/D and so on.

At least, with huge nerfs to bunkers and burst, we could try again.

It’s very hard to get any worse than this.

The only reason such things “polarized” is because other available operate adequately within the environment currently. I’d rather support Anet bugfixing or buffing traits and utilities so they can contribute to the game with new viable builds rather than nerf the solid ground for the vain hope people will consider less viable options. Ex. Thief burst getting nerfed won’t make them consider going to use traps over things shadow step, and shadow refuge. They’ll still suck.

Both elementalist and guardian can effectively run balanced, support, offensive and defensive related playstyles that the community claims to be non-existent. Guardians can effectively bunker, duelists and harasser with the right builds. I mean watch any PZ stream when its up, and take a look at the difference in playstyles between holly jolly and kaypud. Even elementalist, while a great class, still needs a ton of work in its trait lines and utilities(lol conjures).

Even thief, like you just said, have a couple viable options(I’m actually going to push my S/D build as soon as I get my team together). Its just in the current state of the game, damage modifiers in traits, itemization and utilities outweigh anything else a thief can bring to a team. All other options just aren’t very good in comparison, what can thief do support his team? There was the venom meta for a while(which was a WAYY worse situation imo), but there needs to be more. What could a trap thief bring to the table? What can they bring other than damage? Lets BUFF that.

What this game needs is a building of class options rather than some knee-jerk balance shift in the HOPE it gets better. That isn’t how good things are designed. Anet has a solid framework for things. Now its placing the rest of the pieces into the jigsaw.

They could do both, don’t you think ?

Indeed some things need fixing in order to be good, but with the current met, for istance, what could a trap thief bring to the table ?

Let’s say what they do, you’ll say.

But how long is people going to wait before going away definitevely ?

Mrbig.8019:

They could do both, don’t you think ?

Indeed some things need fixing in order to be good, but with the current met, for istance, what could a trap thief bring to the table ?

Let’s say what they do, you’ll say.

But how long is people going to wait before going away definitevely ?

You have to understand a constantly shifting balance emphasis will NOT make this game better despite what you all think. This is what happens to most games that shift class strengths quickly on perceived imbalances based on “visceral” responses(combat log whines, people whining about 1v1). Things imbalanced are often propped up through a combination of interacting elements. This is why things like meta are so important, where mechanics/gameplay interactions are at their most apparent, and system flaws are exploited ruthlessly. Unfortunately, even this is even deceitful, as environments supporting “meta” will often crumple when certain counters become more prevalent. Hence, why slow balanced design is more important.

A game must establish a relatively reliable framework so developers can establish how utilities and traits will interact within the contextual framework of how the game is being played. This is about design, people. Very few games get it right, and justly so. Its very hard.

This should have been done much earlier, but unfortunately this game released with a ton of PvE content as well. We’ll see how things go when we get better metrics, a spectator mode, and ratings. We’ll just have to hope it develops, but I’m hopeful. Its still fun for me.

condiments.8043:

Mrbig.8019:

They could do both, don’t you think ?

Indeed some things need fixing in order to be good, but with the current met, for istance, what could a trap thief bring to the table ?

Let’s say what they do, you’ll say.

But how long is people going to wait before going away definitevely ?

You have to understand a constantly shifting balance emphasis will NOT make this game better despite what you all think. This is what happens to most games that shift class strengths quickly on perceived imbalances based on “visceral” responses(combat log whines, people whining about 1v1). Things imbalanced are often propped up through a combination of interacting elements. This is why things like meta are so important, where mechanics/gameplay interactions are at their most apparent, and system flaws are exploited ruthlessly. Unfortunately, even this is even deceitful, as environments supporting “meta” will often crumple when certain counters become more prevalent. Hence, why slow balanced design is more important.

A game must establish a relatively reliable framework so developers can establish how utilities and traits will interact within the contextual framework of how the game is being played. This is about design, people. Very few games get it right, and justly so. Its very hard.

This should have been done much earlier, but unfortunately this game released with a ton of PvE content as well. We’ll see how things go when we get better metrics, a spectator mode, and ratings. We’ll just have to hope it develops, but I’m hopeful. Its still fun for me.

One thing this industry has taught us is gamers don’t give MMOs a second chance. If you drop deuce out of the gate, no one will come back later when you claim to have cleaned up the mess and the smell is “hardly noticeable”

GW2 PvP has completely missed the mark and there is nothing definitive on the horizon that suggests anything will change in the near or even far flung future. They might end up building the best PvP any MMO has ever seen, but no one is going to be around to care that wasn’t required by fanboi law to suffer the wrath of garbage games until the bitter end.

bunker/dps balance is fine right now, you see both in paids.

when you have too many bunkers, your damage dealers will just die while the enemies ignore the bunkers and then your bunkers get outnumbered and will die too. Try to get a node back with bunkers only …

XiL.4318:

GW2 PvP has completely missed the mark and there is nothing definitive on the horizon that suggests anything will change in the near or even far flung future. They might end up building the best PvP any MMO has ever seen, but no one is going to be around to care that wasn’t required by fanboi law to suffer the wrath of garbage games until the bitter end.

By your judgement the time has already passed and further discussion is irrelevant. I don’t hold the same belief, so I will continue to discuss things on such basis.

Its not about sticking a game out “loyalty”, lol. If you play the game and have fun, keep playing. If not, don’t. I like talking about the game as its a fun hobby. I’m trying to draw others into deeper discussion here beyond the facile and banal banter about the game at the moment.

XiL.4318:

condiments.8043:

Mrbig.8019:

They could do both, don’t you think ?

Indeed some things need fixing in order to be good, but with the current met, for istance, what could a trap thief bring to the table ?

Let’s say what they do, you’ll say.

But how long is people going to wait before going away definitevely ?

You have to understand a constantly shifting balance emphasis will NOT make this game better despite what you all think. This is what happens to most games that shift class strengths quickly on perceived imbalances based on “visceral” responses(combat log whines, people whining about 1v1). Things imbalanced are often propped up through a combination of interacting elements. This is why things like meta are so important, where mechanics/gameplay interactions are at their most apparent, and system flaws are exploited ruthlessly. Unfortunately, even this is even deceitful, as environments supporting “meta” will often crumple when certain counters become more prevalent. Hence, why slow balanced design is more important.

A game must establish a relatively reliable framework so developers can establish how utilities and traits will interact within the contextual framework of how the game is being played. This is about design, people. Very few games get it right, and justly so. Its very hard.

This should have been done much earlier, but unfortunately this game released with a ton of PvE content as well. We’ll see how things go when we get better metrics, a spectator mode, and ratings. We’ll just have to hope it develops, but I’m hopeful. Its still fun for me.

One thing this industry has taught us is gamers don’t give MMOs a second chance. If you drop deuce out of the gate, no one will come back later when you claim to have cleaned up the mess and the smell is “hardly noticeable”

GW2 PvP has completely missed the mark and there is nothing definitive on the horizon that suggests anything will change in the near or even far flung future. They might end up building the best PvP any MMO has ever seen, but no one is going to be around to care that wasn’t required by fanboi law to suffer the wrath of garbage games until the bitter end.

that’s exactly my point.

@condiment

notice we’re not talking about “1vs1” balance and BS like those, it’s about shifting the meta into a more enjoyable one.

Ok, things need also to be fixed , and there are TONS of them ( necro minions AI and overall traits, thief utilities, rangers utilities etc etc etc) , but the thing we need FIRST is to shift the meta into a dps pressure one instead of bunker-burst, where things or drop like flies or just won’t die.

it’s boring.

And the tPvP community already knowss that something needs to change: just look at how few they are.

Mrbig.8019:

@condiment

notice we’re not talking about “1vs1” balance and BS like those, it’s about shifting the meta into a more enjoyable one.

Ok, things need also to be fixed , and there are TONS of them ( necro minions AI and overall traits, thief utilities, rangers utilities etc etc etc) , but the thing we need FIRST is to shift the meta into a dps pressure one instead of bunker-burst, where things or drop like flies or just won’t die.

it’s boring.

And the tPvP community already knowss that something needs to change: just look at how few they are.

There are more problems to the lack of PvP community then just current meta which is actually shifting to more offensive pressure rather than bunker emphasis anyways.

And then I reiterate my point. You do this by having a reliable framework, and building more viable options on top of that. “Shifting” meta is a far more difficult and nebulous thing, and will often resist or subvert expectations. Like I said, knowledge of meta and context are important to the building of options.

If you guys are convinced this game won’t work thats fine. I won’t submit to this idea that “nerfing burst/bunker” will heal things.

condiments.8043:

There are more problems to the lack of PvP community then just current meta which is actually shifting to more offensive pressure rather than bunker emphasis anyways.

Exactly. We’re at 1-2 bunkers per average team now, and that’s in a point-control focused game mode.

I like playing bunker because I think it’s one of those things where it’s easy to play, but scales really well with how well you play it.

Also, most teams I see in paids (including our own) only runs 1 bunker build, which I think is great. Also, not all guardians are bunkers!

Imho, in no circumstance should one be able to completely out defend an offense. I mean, unless they are just not even trying to kill you. Bunker builds should be a method of slowing down your enemies advance, not walling them off. I think it would make for much more interesting gameplay and I’d be much more inclined to even try bunker builds.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/

“Tank vs spike vs physical DPS vs condie DPS. We want to keep making balance changes that allow all classes to have various builds they can use. We don’t want tanks dominating the game, and we don’t want spike builds dominating. It’s healthy to have multiple types of builds in the meta, so we’ll be improving the balance to facilitate a healthy meta.”

this topic is meaningless, ANet already said they will do it… o.O this forum is a big kitten sometimes…

Agree the game has two overpowered set ups, super burst super bunker. No room for balanced play.

Xom.9264:

Agree the game has two overpowered set ups, super burst super bunker. No room for balanced play.

I agree, if you are mixing up bunkers and dps that are not sneaky like thief/ele your dps professions will get trained down and the bunkers will get ignored.

Arheundel.6451:

1) All professions get same level of HP
2) Stealth last max 5s and stealthed characters become visible when attacking and if they receive any sort of dmg while stealthed..or better remove stealth
3) Remove haste/quickness from the game
4) Lower burst of thief/mesmer/warrior by 50%
5) Protection dmg reduction is 15%
6) Reduce amount of defensive skills/traits on 1.guardian, 2. ele, 3. engineer, 4. necro
7) Pet professions( ranger/necro/mesmer) will either have less dmg in general or weak pets

I’m glad you aren’t a dev for this game.

alcopaul.2156:

sorrow.2364:

alcopaul.2156:

but old GW is not capture points, amirite?

Some modes were about capturing the points, like Forgotten Shrines in HA.
Anyway that’s another point about GW2 PvP. Just one gamemode is ridiculous.

they want it to be an esport and having different game modes will make the game not consistent and not esport material.

if you notice the esports games they have a single game mode.

Football pretty much runs off of one game mode too.

People actually enjoy playing football, and others actually enjoy watching it though, if they didn’t it wouldn’t be on tv and noone would play it.

This just HAS to be how gw2 was made :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlv6BrrxD_4

It’s really the only explanation how you could get gw2 from gw1.

MaXi.3642:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/

“Tank vs spike vs physical DPS vs condie DPS. We want to keep making balance changes that allow all classes to have various builds they can use. We don’t want tanks dominating the game, and we don’t want spike builds dominating. It’s healthy to have multiple types of builds in the meta, so we’ll be improving the balance to facilitate a healthy meta.”

this topic is meaningless, ANet already said they will do it… o.O this forum is a big kitten sometimes…

I wonder how they gonna make this balance from the moment that they designed professions with such a huge disparity in base health.
The really ridicolous thing is that people expect a profession like ele to survive with 10k HP against professions that can deal over 10k dmg every 15s but without having water heals, boons, toughness or more dodges.
Those who complain are always thiefs…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTSlULPN768&list=PLBF2912D72F052EC7&index=20
sometimes mesmers…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK1-pPlGDiM&list=PLBF2912D72F052EC7&index=21

1 step toward balance) Remove stealth from game
2 step toward balance) Same health for all professions

MaXi.3642:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/

“Tank vs spike vs physical DPS vs condie DPS. We want to keep making balance changes that allow all classes to have various builds they can use. We don’t want tanks dominating the game, and we don’t want spike builds dominating. It’s healthy to have multiple types of builds in the meta, so we’ll be improving the balance to facilitate a healthy meta.”

this topic is meaningless, ANet already said they will do it… o.O this forum is a big kitten sometimes…

Yeh and judging by the current speed of balance (which is what they have said they will continue) we can expect bunker and burst to dominate the boring meta probably into 2014