Guild Wars 2

There seems to be a prevalent view that only a specific group of players “deserves” to be Diamond / Legendary and that others should be kept out. The argument appears to be that only skill should be rewarded. This is an entitlement based idea.

A couple of criticisms of that paradigm;

Skill may be partly “earned” through gameplay. However, it also has to do with age ( hand to eye coordination, reaction time , ) internet connection quality, computer quality, geographic location ( lag ) and a host of other factors.

Other non individual factors that come into the equation include playing on a organized teams and playing whatever build is currently in favor.

So, “skill” is to some extent random ( or based on the amount of money a player spends on gaming ) and not all of it is “earned.” That makes it a weak argument for entitlement.

The other side of it is this;

I am no esl player and do not wish to be. I’d be willing to bet that I’ve put in as much time and effort as some of them this season.

Work and effort deserve to be rewarded too. If they are not rewarded, it is likely that the “skilled” players will be the only ones left.

Making a new thread doesnt change the fact, that you are not entitled to make it to legendary – especially in the first few weeks of the season – if you dont have the skill level for it.

You got rewarded for your work, you made it to ruby, didnt you?

And btw, Ive seen australians playing on NA servers with constant 350+ latency and still doing hell of a lot better than most players rated average.

Gw2 is NOT heavily reliant on reaction time anymore. If you play smart you can predict skill use way before you see the skill animation (rotation based builds usually have this problem). So your argument that you are just too old and slow doesnt fit.

Im 32 years old, in some other games I really do have a disadvantage against 12 year olds korean. But saying that reaction time keeps you from improving yourself enough to make it to legendary at end of season… thats just a sorry excuse. Its even worse than saying you dont have the time due to work/rl stuff to improve enough.

No, despite multiple 12+ hour sessions and a lot of concentrated effort to “improve myself” over the past almost 4 years…. I’m stuck in the first pip of Sapphire, being repeatedly curb stomped.

Congratulations, I’m well North of 40. I said nothing of the kind. What I said, in essense, was that I ought to be able to earn the rewards through work.

This should be true if I’m a pro league player or a new player. If the only way to get the reward is to win a given number of matches or have so many mmr points… Then most players have no chance at the outset.

When players recognize that they are doomed from the start, guess what? They don’t start.

The reality is that many players will never make pro league status, regardless of trying to “improve themselves.” So, the implied argument that others are simply lazy is false.

Everyone are rewarded för playing PvP, that’s what the reward tracks are there for. League rewards are for the ones who manage to advance or even has the time. I myself are emerald and advancing and does not play that much due too lack of time but if I got stuck there I would accept that as I am as good as an emerald player. I got to sapphire last season and I plan to atleast get the non-ascended backpack in the future, ascended backpack would be a unexpected bonus because I know I am not that good.

People has to learn that rewards are not the most important part of PvP, enjoy yourself instead and if you can’t, Maby take a break?

You will be able to earn the rewards through work. Last I checked my calender, 2016 isnt even 1/3 done. You just wont be able to complete everything this season.

Congratulate yourself for making it to ruby in first weeks of the season and do the same the next handful of seasons. You’ll get your rewards, just not the shiny title and black gem reserverd for better players.

Only someone REALLY REALLY new to the game probably wont make it.

Enjoy myself? I’d enjoy the game a lot more if I wasn’t seeing 70-500+ losses.

That’s just my point. What is a “better” player? Is someone who is willing to work long and hard “worse” that someone who blasts through the ranks with an organized team.

Is someone who puts in almost full time job hours ( me ) “worse” than a player who for whatever reason finds the game easy and is already “legendary?”

The priorities are wrong in my view. The backpack ought to be a reward track. It should not be a gift to a priveleged minority.

Ithilwen.1529:

Skill may be partly “earned” through gameplay. However, it also has to do with age ( hand to eye coordination, reaction time , ) internet connection quality, computer quality, geographic location ( lag ) and a host of other factors.

Others have those issues as well – still they make it to diamond…

Ithilwen.1529:

Other non individual factors that come into the equation include playing on a organized teams and playing whatever build is currently in favor.

No one stops you from doing so as well, if you think that’ll make things easier.

Ithilwen.1529:

Work and effort deserve to be rewarded too. If they are not rewarded, it is likely that the “skilled” players will be the only ones left.

“Work and effort” is grind. And no, grinding should not be rewarded.

In other words: Every football addict should have the chance to win once in a lifetime the Super Bowl, because they put so much effort in this. They maybe don’t have anything Peyton Manning has/had, but who cares? It’s the work that should be rewarded, not some “team cheat” or “random skill” based on age, fitness, training, so on.

I actually agree with OP about work should equal reward, not skill. But not for any of the reasons above. And we need two separate systems. One for rewards, one for pure MMR/skill that has nothing to do with rewards and determines pro league stuff. And finally you should be able to choose what you want to display (yea there should be divs based on MMR you can display)

True PvPers should be competing for the sake of competing and not for any reward. Let the PvErs have a reward track to grind for shinies.

For the reward track portion: Bring back team v team MM (to make fights fair again) but add bonus pips for wins with super high MMR so players like helseth stop complaining (and it incentivises higher MMR.) For example, if you are the top 1% MMR wise, you might gain 3 pips on a win, and only lose 1 pip on a loss. However, keep in mind they’d be facing pro league teams every match again in soloq (only fair.)

Ithilwen.1529:

There seems to be a prevalent view that only a specific group of players “deserves” to be Diamond / Legendary and that others should be kept out. The argument appears to be that only skill should be rewarded. This is an entitlement based idea.

A couple of criticisms of that paradigm;

Skill may be partly “earned” through gameplay. However, it also has to do with age ( hand to eye coordination, reaction time , ) internet connection quality, computer quality, geographic location ( lag ) and a host of other factors.

Other non individual factors that come into the equation include playing on a organized teams and playing whatever build is currently in favor.

So, “skill” is to some extent random ( or based on the amount of money a player spends on gaming ) and not all of it is “earned.” That makes it a weak argument for entitlement.

The other side of it is this;

I am no esl player and do not wish to be. I’d be willing to bet that I’ve put in as much time and effort as some of them this season.

Work and effort deserve to be rewarded too. If they are not rewarded, it is likely that the “skilled” players will be the only ones left.

If we take that logic to its conclusion then why not allow grannies into the NFL? After all it isn’t “fair” that it’s all people who have trained hard to obtain an elite level of quality. To reach that level of athleticism they needed serious monetary investments in dietary advice and exercise. Likewise in gaming if you can afford the best tools and want to maximize your winning chances why not buy that Mad Catz or Razer Naga?

As for bad lag and hardware they’re burdening their team but bringing a handicap. You thought base game rangers in your team was bad?

As for work and effort if you put it in then your skill will rise organically. Most improvement comes with deliberate practice instead of playing anyway. So getting better at chess would require studying books on rook endings as opposed to just playing games without reflecting on mistakes and what one could have done better and why.

That’s just my point. What is a “better” player?

Umm, someone who does things to maximize the team’s winning chances and reduce the opposite team’s winning chances more efficiently and accurately than someone else and with better judgment?

illo.5106:

“Work and effort” is grind. And no, grinding should not be rewarded.

I really disagree that work and effort are grind. Didn’t every pro put work and effort into becoming a pro? Or were they just born a pro? I think it diminishes the hard work and tons of effort put into becoming a pro when you say this.

Grind is when you get a newbie enemy and you slaughter them in a 500-50 match. Grind is when your enemy can’t do much against you. Grind has no skill involved and no competitiveness. You can grind with your eyes closed and automatic pushing of buttons.

To me, that’s not what ranked PvP was or should be. I believe work and effort should be rewarded, however slowly, but rewarded. I’m not planning on reaching Legendary any time soon because I simply need to put more work and effort into my play, and gain more experience. But all of my work and effort and reading on builds and tactics is moot if the “match” results in a curbstomp.

And it results in a curbstomp because one team is picked based on our MMR, while the enemy is picked from pip range. So a team of 5 powerful players that is just breezing through on their way to Legendary uses my team as a punching bag, removing any chance that we’ll learn anything from it. Why not have them pick on someone their own size and leave newbies to work on learning and practicing? We won’t suddenly breeze through to Legendary, we’ll simply progress 2 pips a day instead of 20 pips a day. I’m fine with that. Slow progress that gives me experience is much better than no progress.

Beliyal.7085:

I really disagree that work and effort are grind.

The “work and effort” as described as above is grind. If I complain on the forum, that I played sooo long and I’m still at the bottom… well, that summarized it pretty well:

Its not about the hours you put in, its about how you use them. If you spend that many hours on pvp without getting good enough, then you probably spend them doing the same mistakes over and over and over and over again. Should that be rewarded? I dont think so.

And what else is this “I put so many hours into that, I want a reward too?” and wanting a small improvement for the time invested? That’s grinding your way up…

Yasi.9065:

You will be able to earn the rewards through work. Last I checked my calender, 2016 isnt even 1/3 done. You just wont be able to complete everything this season.

Congratulate yourself for making it to ruby in first weeks of the season and do the same the next handful of seasons. You’ll get your rewards, just not the shiny title and
black gem reserverd for better players.

Only someone REALLY REALLY new to the game probably wont make it.

I think you have monumentally missed the OP’s point.

The point is that rank does not have a direct correlation with skill. This is so patently obvious I’m not going to get drawn into an argument about it.
He raises two of the issues… people on organised teams could have lower skill levels but be carried because they will mostly be playing pugs.
People who play fotm are absolutely not required to have as much skill – That’s Why You Roll FotM – <IT’S EASIER>.

Also you can’t go DOWN divisions which a LOT of people would have been doing who are currently sitting in Ruby. Just look at all the people complaining that their team mates in RUBY don’t know the basics.

Yes people have choices but to just state Rank=Skill —-- High Ranks are Better Players is kitten.

Why should they have to fight high mmr opponents in amber league?

Winning streak made it so they got out of lower divisions really fast, so the amount of “casualties” is extremely low compared to first season, where high mmr players were punished for being good.

You lost that game against a much higher mmr team? Your mmr didnt get downadjusted by more than tiny tiny tiny bit.

What anet should have implemented, is not loosing a pip when going against a much higher mmr team. Ending winstreak, yes… adjusting mmr downwards by a tiny bit, yes… loosing pip, no.

But thats the only thing that isnt optimal at current progression system.

As to mmr system… the only thing kittening that up atm, is putting new players into average category at start. It can result in them getting carried up to at least ruby. But thats another matter.

Getting “roflstomped” as they called it in WvW by a much superior team can give you the chance to learn from it. Record your matches, re-watch them… look for what they are doing differently. Learn from it.

illo.5106:

Yasi.9065:

Its not about the hours you put in, its about how you use them. If you spend that many hours on pvp without getting good enough, then you probably spend them doing the same mistakes over and over and over and over again. Should that be rewarded? I dont think so.

That’s fair, I guess.

Can’t speak for others, but I did get better over time. Obviously not good enough to match players with far above average skills, seeing as me and people like me routinely lose with a high point difference, which signifies that the skill disparity between the teams is too big. That’s my primary issue with this. Not the losing itself, but the matches that aren’t matches at all. Those are far too common right now and it doesn’t result in a competitive (or fun) battle, regardless of the side I’m on (and I’ve been on both sides).

When my team loses with a less point difference, I can usually tell where exactly we made mistakes and I can use that to become better in the future. It counts towards your work and effort as well as how you spend your hours in PvP. The point is, there will be no improvement for people like me if we get mowed down like flies in 85% of our matches. I do believe some tweaks can be made to make this less common, because it hasn’t been this common before.

Dirtyrascal.1023:

Yasi.9065:

You will be able to earn the rewards through work. Last I checked my calender, 2016 isnt even 1/3 done. You just wont be able to complete everything this season.

Congratulate yourself for making it to ruby in first weeks of the season and do the same the next handful of seasons. You’ll get your rewards, just not the shiny title and
black gem reserverd for better players.

Only someone REALLY REALLY new to the game probably wont make it.

I think you have monumentally missed the OP’s point.

The point is that rank does not have a direct correlation with skill. This is so patently obvious I’m not going to get drawn into an argument about it.
He raises two of the issues… people on organised teams could have lower skill levels but be carried because they will mostly be playing pugs.
People who play fotm are absolutely not required to have as much skill – That’s Why You Roll FotM – <IT’S EASIER>.

Also you can’t go DOWN divisions which a LOT of people would have been doing who are currently sitting in Ruby. Just look at all the people complaining that their team mates in RUBY don’t know the basics.

Yes people have choices but to just state Rank=Skill —-- High Ranks are Better Players is kitten.

So what? The current system allows you to just form a new 5man premade, play matches with them until you are at mid diamond and then you are out of ruby range.

Of course, for players that lack skill, this will still take a long time. But in last season, if you made a new 5man premade, you got matched against proleague teams. You got severly punished for being a new team.

So yeah… you dont lack the skill? Then get a teamspeak channel on one of the thousands open gw2 teamspeak servers, get 4 others in ruby to join you, teamqueue only with them and get out of ruby range.

Ruby hell is directly the result of Anet catering to PvE players and average PvP players so they also can participate in seasons and get the backpiece.
So what you are complaining about, is actually caused by players like Ithilwen.

Not saying its a bad thing, at all… I actually like this combined system. But it also means that you have to live with ruby hell, because thats the downside of that system.

Beliyal, just keep on improving, try out “new” strategies, like starting with a 3-2 split far/close instead of running 4 in mid and dieing to 3 necros there. If you have only blowout matches, stop playing for a bit so people with your own skill level can catch up and people with higher skill level move on. You dont have to be their doormat

Ithilwen.1529:

There seems to be a prevalent view that only a specific group of players “deserves” to be Diamond / Legendary and that others should be kept out. The argument appears to be that only skill should be rewarded. This is an entitlement based idea.

Actually, that’s a meritocracy-based idea, where skill is rewarded. Your idea is an entitlement-base idea, where everyone should get a gold star because they tried.

Just look at all the people complaining that their team mates in RUBY don’t know the basics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Yasi.9065:

Dirtyrascal.1023:

Yasi.9065:

You will be able to earn the rewards through work. Last I checked my calender, 2016 isnt even 1/3 done. You just wont be able to complete everything this season.

Congratulate yourself for making it to ruby in first weeks of the season and do the same the next handful of seasons. You’ll get your rewards, just not the shiny title and
black gem reserverd for better players.

Only someone REALLY REALLY new to the game probably wont make it.

I think you have monumentally missed the OP’s point.

The point is that rank does not have a direct correlation with skill. This is so patently obvious I’m not going to get drawn into an argument about it.
He raises two of the issues… people on organised teams could have lower skill levels but be carried because they will mostly be playing pugs.
People who play fotm are absolutely not required to have as much skill – That’s Why You Roll FotM – <IT’S EASIER>.

Also you can’t go DOWN divisions which a LOT of people would have been doing who are currently sitting in Ruby. Just look at all the people complaining that their team mates in RUBY don’t know the basics.

Yes people have choices but to just state Rank=Skill —-- High Ranks are Better Players is kitten.

So what? The current system allows you to just form a new 5man premade, play matches with them until you are at mid diamond and then you are out of ruby range.

Of course, for players that lack skill, this will still take a long time. But in last season, if you made a new 5man premade, you got matched against proleague teams. You got severly punished for being a new team.

So yeah… you dont lack the skill? Then get a teamspeak channel on one of the thousands open gw2 teamspeak servers, get 4 others in ruby to join you, teamqueue only with them and get out of ruby range.

If you look up at the clouds that thing you see flying over is what I wrote.

A league system is a way to match equal minded and skilled players with and against eachother. Its similar to a ladder in a way.

A league system isnt a journey from A to Z where getting to Z is guaranteed.

Yasi.9065:

Beliyal, just keep on improving, try out “new” strategies, like starting with a 3-2 split far/close instead of running 4 in mid and dieing to 3 necros there. If you have only blowout matches, stop playing for a bit so people with your own skill level can catch up and people with higher skill level move on. You dont have to be their doormat

Yeah, I’ve been trying. I moved two tiers up when I finally found a good team, but we’ve had troubles pairing up again.

Currently one of the biggest issues is that people are immediately angry the moment they enter the match and see three necros on enemy team and stuff like that. When they start shouting obscenities in chat before the match even starts, it seems like they’ve already given up. Also, another issue is when people just don’t pay attention to the chat. Even when someone tries to coordinate a team, the least you can do is confirm that you got the plan, but no. If at least 2 people ignore the plan, you can’t do much.

Anyway, it’s frustrating, but at this point I just play three matches a day and see how it goes. If I don’t find a good team, I just stop. I’m only afraid that this will negatively impact the player base because if too many people give up, it can’t be good for PvP health.

Locuz.2651:

A league system is a way to match equal minded and skilled players with and against each other. Its similar to a ladder in a way.

A league system isnt a journey from A to Z where getting to Z is guaranteed.

I highlighted the part which is actually FALSE. Matchmaking and MMR only takes into account your teammates

StickerHappy.8052:

I highlighted the part which is actually FALSE. Matchmaking and MMR only takes into account your teammates

The division itself is essentially a part of the matchmaking aswell. In fact its the key part.

As to “imagined disabilities” I have real disabilities (directly related to video gaming ) that I chose not to list.

The concept of a “meritocracy” is all well and good in theory. The real world presents some more problems though.

First, because the system started everyone in the same place, those unlucky enough to be matched against teams or highly skilled players were unfairly down rated. That disadvantaged them for the remainder of the season. This is not a meritocracy but a caste system.

The system as it stands favors a vocal minority and only that group. Unlike the real world, people have no obligation to be in PvP. Hence, if the game is made unpleasant for them by excessive competitiveness, they will leave.

The concept of deliberately matching teams in such a way as to make one win is inherently unfair. It cannot logically be considered fair.

Teams artificially inflate the apparent skill of individual players.

If the system were truly a test of personal skill, it would require everyone to solo queue. The system is intended to force team play. Well, the reality is that a large number of players don’t want to be on teams.

Because of the unfair matches, players will leave the system. This will magnify the matchmaking problems by reducing the pool of available players. This is a vicious cycle.

Last, let’s be honest for a minute; The legendary backpack and related rewards are a carrot to attract players to PvP. Many of those players are relatively inexperienced. Curb stomping them and denying them the reward can really only have one effect. That effect is not constructive for PvP.