A rather radical look at conditions and PvP

A rather radical look at conditions and PvP

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Posted by: ysnake.3619

ysnake.3619

Greetings there, as the title states, I’d like to open up a discussion, basically theory-crafting about the conditions.

I want to retain the expectations that GW2, so far, haven’t fully met in this post and therefore, shall use them as an argument from a rather subjective point of view, but even though it is subjective, I feel that many people feel about the current state of Condition Wars 2.

To claim it off the bat, rework the damaging conditions. Removal would be too harsh and shouldn’t be like that. Here is my idea of rework. I come from Asheron’s Call, Dark Age of Camelot, WoW, Warhammer and many alike, and I have experienced what good combat system does and what bad combat system does. Currently, in GW2, combat system is just perfect, no RNG, but there are damaging conditions, namely bleeding, poison and the hated burning. With all of those games combined, I can tell you what is most pleasant thing to watch from a spectator point of view and how the game is more awesome.

The effects of the spells need to be toned down, that’s for sure. Now about reworking the damaging conditions.

When I (and my friends) were reading about the game, we figured that conditions would be like debuffs, and there is actually a class that is in charge of debuffs (namely Necromancers), while other classes can provide a lower amount of debuffs as well. The problem occurred when the debuffs became a primary damage source. Just today, I played with a couple of friends (new to the game due to 2-day free-trial) and they were just frustrated while playing it. They would check what did they die from, and it’s usually 17k ticks of bleeding/burning in a matter of seconds, they asked me how to prevent that, and quite frankly, there are very few ways to prevent that after you dodge a couple of things beforehand.

I shall take the perfect example of the combat system that worked in a game called Dark Age of Camelot. So-called debuffs, were what they are, debuffs. You could have conditions on you, bleeding, poison, namely DoTs (which is basically what conditions are) but their damage was so minor, it was often ignored (80-150-280, if you were really specced into dots, ticks every 2 seconds on a 2.5k health pool for 12 seconds), bleeding damage was maybe 40 per tick. What this meant was that the actual damage, the damaging ability was everyone’s main damage. That’s how Guild Wars 2 should have been. You could have avoided the entire “remove the conditions or be able to inflict more than your opponent” meta.

If ANet reworked condition damaging abilities to be just an addition to the primary damaging ability (like Backstab causing Bleeding for some minor damage, let’s just say 80 per tick over the course of 10 seconds with 1.5 seconds in between the ticks). That’s just complementary damage to your already main damaging ability. This does not cause confusion amongst the new players. If a player sees “oh, he killed me with Backstab? well I better avoid that next time”.

How would then this pair onto the pro scene? Where everyone should know what to dodge and when not to dodge. Most of the “high damage” skills have some sort of an animation beforehand (this also complements my next point) and players should react by dodging it. However, the player who is using the high damage skill can always interrupt his own spell-cast in other to juke out a dodge from the enemy player and he can use it again in 4-5 seconds (if I remember correctly).

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Posted by: ysnake.3619

ysnake.3619

My final point, as I realize this is probably already a wall of text, is Asuras. There is just no freaking way GW2 will live to see the light of the day in esports scene if there are Asuras. No one wants to look at the little midget hamsters wabbling their tiny hands and not having visible animations. A simple fix to this is the following. Have player choose what models others will appear to him. The tournament casters can always run the human form for the clear presentation of the game and easier way to commentate as well, hell, even Norn. Here’s a good reason why you should do this. In League of Legends (currently the most dominant esports game), all champions have different skins, all of them. BUT, all of their spellcasts are the same animation (few added details to some skins, but the core of the animation is still there), and no one ever has a problem of determining what the other champion is doing. Starcraft 2, another major name in esports scene, is reluctant to add more skins to the game because they are afraid it might cause imbalance, since the slightest mistake can lead onto a lost fight in that game, and no one wants to see pink flying Zerglings with angel wings and Superman capes jumping all over the map. That’s the main problem that you produced when you introduced the Asura race. If I see a tournament and I want to watch it, as a Guild Wars 2 player, and I see a bunch of Asuras, I immediately turn it off. I do not want to watch that, it is not watchable. Please take this into consideration and make fast changes.

TL;DR:
- rework damaging conditions for them to be only complementary to the primary damaging skill
- rework models of races or give players the ability to see others in other models
- be faster with your patches as many players have left, and will leave the game because no one likes slow fixes and adjustments

Take care.

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Posted by: jcbroe.4329

jcbroe.4329

ANet already did your suggesting though, it was called guild wars 1. And with the unwillingness to recycle old ideas because of the need to reinvent the wheel, well, you see where the game is.

Jroh | Former SOAC Ranger Podcaster | Platinum Division Top 100 Player
www.twitch.tv/itsJROH For stream, stream schedule, other streamers, builds, etc
https://www.youtube.com/user/JRoeboat

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Posted by: Sabull.5670

Sabull.5670

What if Carrion would have power as main stat and condition secondary. Rabid same with precision. Or using the defencive stat as main rather so condi is more of a defencive play style. Thats 30% less condi stat.

Easy bandage aid on big part of the problem for pvp.

[TA]

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Posted by: PeterLoveYou.3024

PeterLoveYou.3024

Necromancer’s condition damage is just RIDICULOUS. Condition clearance is not enough to clean them and the dmg is way too high. Dev please fix it.

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Posted by: Lordryux.9785

Lordryux.9785

Necromancer’s condition damage is just RIDICULOUS. Condition clearance is not enough to clean them and the dmg is way too high. Dev please fix it.

Its actually not that the condition damage is high.. cuz tbh.. it really isnt.. its just that they can spam conditions on you faster than any other class.. actually longbow warrior is up there aswell. put 10+stacks of bleeding on u really quick.. when did they get that buff . but anyway yea.. the way necro spams conditions needs to be looked at cuz tbh.. ive literally seen… a necro tank 4 players.. and down 2 of them… in a fight.. in tpvp fighting over gate at temple.. like.. thats just utterly rediculous.. ive never seen something like that before in my life of playing here.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

Necromancer’s condition damage is just RIDICULOUS. Condition clearance is not enough to clean them and the dmg is way too high. Dev please fix it.

Its actually not that the condition damage is high.. cuz tbh.. it really isnt.. its just that they can spam conditions on you faster than any other class.. actually longbow warrior is up there aswell. put 10+stacks of bleeding on u really quick.. when did they get that buff . but anyway yea.. the way necro spams conditions needs to be looked at cuz tbh.. ive literally seen… a necro tank 4 players.. and down 2 of them… in a fight.. in tpvp fighting over gate at temple.. like.. thats just utterly rediculous.. ive never seen something like that before in my life of playing here.

Warriors have always bee able to stack a ton of bleed. If I went full on into applying bleeds I can do 25 via skills, traits, and sigils. The problem we had before is that we didn’t have many cover conditions so they get removed before doing any real damage. Now you can have Torment that once removed another stack comes back. You can also sacrifice some bleeds with Sigils of Doom for poison if you want. I haven’t decided if this is worth it yet though. We still can’t do conditions quite as well as Necros or Engis, although some of use are messing around with Regen Banner with Healing Signet in order to get good team support healing. Can’t say it’s as good as our CC but it’s getting there.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

(edited by BurrTheKing.8571)

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Posted by: Lopez.7369

Lopez.7369

I’m pretty sure I could “tank” four players and down two of them as any class. Most people playing this game are effectively wild animals.

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Posted by: teonimesic.1403

teonimesic.1403

Necromancer’s condition damage is just RIDICULOUS. Condition clearance is not enough to clean them and the dmg is way too high. Dev please fix it.

Its actually not that the condition damage is high.. cuz tbh.. it really isnt.. its just that they can spam conditions on you faster than any other class.. actually longbow warrior is up there aswell. put 10+stacks of bleeding on u really quick.. when did they get that buff . but anyway yea.. the way necro spams conditions needs to be looked at cuz tbh.. ive literally seen… a necro tank 4 players.. and down 2 of them… in a fight.. in tpvp fighting over gate at temple.. like.. thats just utterly rediculous.. ive never seen something like that before in my life of playing here.

You weren’t around with bunker eles right? Necro and condition damage is mostly fine, just remove every “gives stuff/condition on critical” and things will be awesome (for every class please). This has been overly discussed. But i do fear that necros will be over nerfed because of the delay from devs to actually make a change because of PAX tournment. Since necros are likely the most hated class right now (congrats perma stealth thiefs, you are off the hook ;p), i believe Anet will nerf it beyond what it should.

What should actually happen was a quick change to dhuumfire, and not just to its internal cooldown. Adding torrent, terror and fire was a bit too much. But i do like the new meta better than how it was before, warriors have come back to life, which is a very welcome change since most warriors arent asura and have easy to see animations. Every class should be like that. If necros had a melee condition damage with easy to see animations i would surely use that instead of the ranged scepter/staff. But i dont think that necros should only have direct damage, as the OP mentions. Necros are supposed to inflict conditions and do damage over time (basically the disease idea), and that should be its main source of damage (or at least a viable build)

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Posted by: Atherakhia.4086

Atherakhia.4086

There are tons of ways to handle conditions.

You could cut their damage by a set percentage (30-50%) but then allow them to crit. This would then force conditions to work in the same way power builds work. They sacrifice raw damage for staying power. The argument against this is that condition classes need staying power for their conditions to work. This is true… but the classes that rely on conditions were given other mechanics to help with this. Deathshroud for example. If those mechanics aren’t up to the task, then buff those.

Alternatively, you can make removal of conditions easier. Give more condition removal abilities to classes. Allow them to remove more conditions at once. Now this would be overpowered in some sense because the ability to apply conditions may be given around freely, but the ability to stack them to a degree to actually be a threat is somewhat difficult and time consuming. So simply spreading around more cleanse without a draw back isn’t very fair. I suggest simply make cleanses remove boons in addition to conditions. This is a very scaled down version of how dispels worked in Shadowbane for example.

You could also examine the true problem conditions. The largest of which is burning. Scale burning damage back and turn it into a utility spell. For example, it would only do 2x or 3x bleed damage, but now would put revealed on any target also burning.

Lastly, they could just take the easy approach to conditions. Simply make toughness and protection work against them and call it a day. One could argue they already have a stat to combat conditions in vitality. If this really worked we would expect the high HP classes to do better against conditions than other classes (Warriors and Necros for example) but these classes don’t, not because of vitality anyway.

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Posted by: gesho.9468

gesho.9468

just tone down necro for starters and chances are that will take care of condi problem

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

The problem isn’t really the damage of conditions; it’s how quickly they can be applied or re-applied. This is mostly due to procs, especially burning procs, which allow you to stack a lot of damaging conditions within a few actions. I’m guessing there were added a nice bonus for power damage builds, so the dilema is how do you balance for procs on condi damage users vs. non-condi damage users. Do you make condition damage setups non-viable unless they take these proc traits by removing conditions from base spells and weapons? Do you completely gut the traits?

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: Poplolita.2638

Poplolita.2638

T

You could also examine the true problem conditions. The largest of which is burning. Scale burning damage back and turn it into a utility spell. For example, it would only do 2x or 3x bleed damage, but now would put revealed on any target also burning.

I always found that, being able to stealth while burning, was odd. You gotta spread this idea, it’s probably one of the best idea I’ve ever read on the forum concerning burning!

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Posted by: Lordryux.9785

Lordryux.9785

I mean tbh.. i dont mind it because i bring.. condition removal with me always now.. even on my mesmer i run with the mantra of resolve and clear conditions on heal aswell so.. ive learned to deal with it a of late but.. the rapid way the conditions are reapplied to you.. i just think thats the general idea of the problem.. but oh well. its w.e hopefully they do something.

I mean alot of people are overlooking the fact that the main problem is necro as of right now.. notice how everyone and they momma is playing a necro right now.. i even know like.. 12 people who actually.. quit there. mains just to make a necro.. its kinda sad really.. ill still tough it out with my mesmer and ranger. (no i dont play spirit ranger is boring.) longbow ranger the true test of skill xD but i like longbow way better.

(edited by Lordryux.9785)

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Posted by: garethh.3518

garethh.3518

The issue isn’t so much “conditions can’t be a main dmg source” so much as that “GW2 wasn’t setup around conditions being a strong dmg source”…
The devs didn’t think it through in the slightest when making the game, they didn’t make cleansing or amulets or weapons like conditions were supposed to be a high solo dmg source…
Condi removal traits, there is typically 1~ notable one in only most classes, and its an extremely strong counter-condi trait. Devs do things like that when it is supposed to be situational to actually need any sort of counter to it at all.
Most condi-weapons have utterly useless physical dmg attacks…
Amulets provided extreme physical dmg scaling, while condi ones seem intent on bunkering… meaning it would just be a slow sustained sort of dmg.
Even in utilities there is only a few scattered ones that remove conditions…

It’s like after tossing together the stuff they wanted in the game, they just balanced kitten out until it wasn’t OP, then kittening called it a day and went back to praising themselves or twiddling their thumbs.
kittening devs.

The game is a mess from the ground up, I like the idea of conditions as a main dmg source, I hate… utterly hate… how they implemented it.

(edited by garethh.3518)