Guild Wars 2

Let me start by saying that I am a user of Diamond Skin.

A while back, there was a strong polemic against Diamond Skin, which can be understood. If you were not aware, you can browse in the older pages of the forum. Currently, Diamond Skin does, “Conditions cannot be applied when your health is above the threshold (90%).”

Instead of that, I recently thought about an idea that I would like to share. Instead of what Diamond Skin currently does, I propose this possible change:

“Remove a Condition when granting Protection to yourself.”

In addition to that, I would be tempted to combine Diamond Skin with Elemental Shielding which “Grants protection when applying an aura to yourself or an ally.”

Synergies.

There are many ways to grant protection with elementalist, especially with Elemental Shield (if it comes with it).

-Elemental Attunement
-Elemental Contingency
-Blasting Ice Field.
-Sunspot’s Fire Aura
-Conjurer’s Fire Aura
-Auras from weapon skills
-Leap finishers.
-Tempest Defense
-Soothing Ice
-Magnetic Shield (Conjured Earth Shield) grants up to 3x protection (1 per targets hit)
-Fiery Axe’s leap
-Lightning Hammer’s leap
-Armor of Earth
-Glyph of Renewal
-Glyph when casted on Earth Attunement with Inscription
-Rune sets

On top of that, they could add a Leap Finisher to Earth Shield number 3, which is an obvious candidate for a Leap Finisher.

Let me know what you think about it.

I think diamond skin is fine, it’s not hard to take out 1700 hp or what ever, in fact I would say it’s next to useless unless you’re a bunker build.

I’m also pretty sure most players are forced into Fire/Water/Arcana at the moment too..

sephiroth.4217:

I think diamond skin is fine, it’s not hard to take out 1700 hp or what ever, in fact I would say it’s next to useless unless you’re a bunker build.

I’m also pretty sure most players are forced into Fire/Water/Arcana at the moment too..

The issue with Diamond Skin is that it literally just locks out condition builds. If you are using a condition build, you absolutely cannot kill the ele without some help. I think this suggestion works much better and makes more sense than the current iteration.

The world doesn’t revolve around 1v1 of a condition class who can’t even bring an ele’s hp down by 10‰. If they have trouble with that, just get help or swap.

If you can’t take out 10% health without conditions then your problem is bigger than your build

uhohhotdog.3598:

If you can’t take out 10% health without conditions then your problem is bigger than your build

Thank god eles just stand there and never heal back up.

Hey guys, can we talk about the feasibility of Protection clearing a Condition to Self? Do you like the suggestion? Do you think it is too strong, or do you think that it is too weak?

I am far from omniscient. Also, that would open up a trait for Earth, which could be related to Conjured weapon or Signets. Or, redo Conjurer and give the old Fire Aura on Signet back to the Fire line. Et cetera.

Actually, it would probably be best to keep the Elemental Shielding where it is, and simply add another effect to the “Protection Diamond Skin”

Alekt.5803:

Hey guys, can we talk about the feasibility of Protection clearing a Condition to Self? Do you like the suggestion? Do you think it is too strong, or do you think that it is too weak?

I am far from omniscient. Also, that would open up a trait for Earth, which could be related to Conjured weapon or Signets. Or, redo Conjurer and give the old Fire Aura on Signet back to the Fire line. Et cetera.

Actually, it would probably be best to keep the Elemental Shielding where it is, and simply add another effect to the “Protection Diamond Skin”

It’s OP. The last thing Eles need is more condi cleanse.

Many liked the idea of Resistance on earth atunement swap for Diamond Skin, or some form of that. There were other good suggestions too.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Diamon-Skin-a-condi-users-worst-enemy/first

Ross Biddle.2367:

Alekt.5803:

Hey guys, can we talk about the feasibility of Protection clearing a Condition to Self? Do you like the suggestion? Do you think it is too strong, or do you think that it is too weak?

I am far from omniscient. Also, that would open up a trait for Earth, which could be related to Conjured weapon or Signets. Or, redo Conjurer and give the old Fire Aura on Signet back to the Fire line. Et cetera.

Actually, it would probably be best to keep the Elemental Shielding where it is, and simply add another effect to the “Protection Diamond Skin”

It’s OP. The last thing Eles need is more condi cleanse.

Many liked the idea of Resistance on earth atunement swap for Diamond Skin, or some form of that. There were other good suggestions too.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Diamon-Skin-a-condi-users-worst-enemy/first

You do know that giving Resistance on earth attunement for Diamond skin will only force elementalist to play with cantrip exclusively? There would be no more way to deal efficiently with condition otherwise.

diamond skin does not need a nerf nor does the ele in general at all, I do not play an ele and have no trouble with eles at all, any

I think it’d be interesting and it makes Earth even more favorable for Aura builds. It’s also much less…passive when fighting against Condi builds. However, maybe it should have an ICD to prevent the condi cleansing to be too insane when alongside Water and 3x Cantrips.

NOTE TO OTHERS: This is not just to “nerf” Diamond skin, but for Elementalists to have skills that aren’t horribly designed. It doesn’t matter if you “had trouble with DS Eles” or not. That’s not the point. The point is to have a much more healthy trait that doesn’t completely counter specific builds and is useless against a lot of other things.

I aslo think its a nice suggestion. Giving to ele condi cleanse on Protection doesnt makes them overpowered, cause earth is hardly taken over fire, and its not likely eles need to take more condi cleanses right now. But it can help ele builds to get rid of cantrips or even water in some way, so maybe we can see more builds on the table.

Kolisch.4691:

The world doesn’t revolve around 1v1 of a condition class who can’t even bring an ele’s hp down by 10‰. If they have trouble with that, just get help or swap.

Ask that to Phantaram, Wakkey, or quite simply, tune in to any WTS tournament… heck, watch an ESL tournament for that matter. Why do you think the two Ele’s go home or far at start? I assure you it’s not just because they want to stall the node.. they are also likely to win the fight. 1v1’s happen and they’re game changers.

uhohhotdog.3598:

If you can’t take out 10% health without conditions then your problem is bigger than your build

…just look at the meta. You’re either Celestials, Marauders, Zerkers or Clerics. Occasionally you’ll come across something weird but the meta is basically all Power builds with the exception of Carrion Guardians. Guess what? The 900p/900v/1200c amulet can’t touch a DS Ele no matter what the Guardian does.

You might as well be throwing water balloons.

back on topic

Yes.

Malchior.5732:

I think it’d be interesting and it makes Earth even more favorable for Aura builds. It’s also much less…passive when fighting against Condi builds. However, maybe it should have an ICD to prevent the condi cleansing to be too insane when alongside Water and 3x Cantrips.

NOTE TO OTHERS: This is not just to “nerf” Diamond skin, but for Elementalists to have skills that aren’t horribly designed. It doesn’t matter if you “had trouble with DS Eles” or not. That’s not the point. The point is to have a much more healthy trait that doesn’t completely counter specific builds and is useless against a lot of other things.

I do believe that putting an ICD would be a way to ruin the trait. Earth Shield can give 3 instance of protection with a single pull if 3 targets are hit for instance.

About Cleansing Water (Regen clears condi), I did think about it. I don’t think that a cantrip elementalist can benefit enough from it as it would not get as many instances of protection as a no-cantrip/ no water build that would be prone to use that trait.

Saiyan.1704:

Yes.

Even though I hate burn guard, I am making concessions about Diamond Skin.

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

I think it’d be interesting and it makes Earth even more favorable for Aura builds. It’s also much less…passive when fighting against Condi builds. However, maybe it should have an ICD to prevent the condi cleansing to be too insane when alongside Water and 3x Cantrips.

NOTE TO OTHERS: This is not just to “nerf” Diamond skin, but for Elementalists to have skills that aren’t horribly designed. It doesn’t matter if you “had trouble with DS Eles” or not. That’s not the point. The point is to have a much more healthy trait that doesn’t completely counter specific builds and is useless against a lot of other things.

I do believe that putting an ICD would be a way to ruin the trait. Earth Shield can give 3 instance of protection with a single pull if 3 targets are hit for instance.

About Cleansing Water (Regen clears condi), I did think about it. I don’t think that a cantrip elementalist can benefit enough from it as it would not get as many instances of protection as a no-cantrip/ no water build that would be prone to use that trait.

A Water/Arcana/Earth D/D Elementalist would be able to get 5 new Condi Cleanses.
2 from Aura skills
1 from Leaping through a Fire Field
1 for switching to Earth
1 for activating Armor of Earth(On top of Cleansing Water)

That means dropping Stone Heart, so I guess it’s not that bad. Might be fun with Shouts + Soldier Runes; making them cleanse 2 conditions(except Eye of the Storm, Wash the Pain Away, and Rebound…).

Would be a nice change, but I don’t think Karl is willing to make big changes like this, especially now.

Best fix is to remove it.

Malchior.5732:

A Water/Arcana/Earth D/D Elementalist would be able to get 5 new Condi Cleanses.
2 from Aura skills
1 from Leaping through a Fire Field
1 for switching to Earth
1 for activating Armor of Earth(On top of Cleansing Water)

That means dropping Stone Heart, so I guess it’s not that bad. Might be fun with Shouts + Soldier Runes; making them cleanse 2 conditions(except Eye of the Storm, Wash the Pain Away, and Rebound…).

Would be a nice change, but I don’t think Karl is willing to make big changes like this, especially now.

It would not be such a great options for D/D cantrips indeed since using protection to cleanse condition would also mean to break their rotation. They would act like accidental condition cleanse.

Also, you had forgotten Elemental Contingency. (But still is accidental)

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

A Water/Arcana/Earth D/D Elementalist would be able to get 5 new Condi Cleanses.
2 from Aura skills
1 from Leaping through a Fire Field
1 for switching to Earth
1 for activating Armor of Earth(On top of Cleansing Water)

That means dropping Stone Heart, so I guess it’s not that bad. Might be fun with Shouts + Soldier Runes; making them cleanse 2 conditions(except Eye of the Storm, Wash the Pain Away, and Rebound…).

Would be a nice change, but I don’t think Karl is willing to make big changes like this, especially now.

It would not be such a great options for D/D cantrips indeed since using protection to cleanse condition would also mean to break their rotation. They would act like accidental condition cleanse.

Also, you had forgotten Elemental Contingency. (But still is accidental)

I didn’t include it because it’s not entirely in your control(admittedly Leaping through a Fire Field isn’t a guaranteed thing either, but depends more on you).

Yea, I guess it’d be fine.

I can confirm I literally 100% CANNOT KILL A DS ELE on any of my condition builds amongst various professions as I use a mix of Dire and Rabid, both of which have nothing to do with Power which is what you need to lop off that certain threshold before you can start applying conditions.

I HAVE killed 2 out of the plethora of DS eles I’ve met but only via luring them off high ledges indirectly making their HP drop below threshold… Sadly, not all DS eles are that stupid… If only.

I could go Carrion but traits, builds and simply put, play style needs precision or you’re better off with Dire/Rabid.

I like your proposal, OP. It makes sense and would take a small chunk out of the unwavering “passive” gameplay ANet seems so intent on delivering us.

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

Good idea, big NO for passive play. What is more diamond skin counters not only dmg conditions, but also all movement-impairing effects. Try disrupt DS ele rotation with chill.

I really think diamond skin should only work vs damaging conditions chill cripple immob weakness should still work at least it gives some counter play for condi builds to keep the ele from hitting as hard or being able to get away from your team mates. I forgot about vuln and slow as well Slow would end up being a perfect counter too them even if its for a short time because it would mess up the rotation timing.

Obviously diamond skin should be reworked to grant 2s of resistance on either swapping to earth (similar to rock solid) or resistance from using a glyph. We didn’t have resistance when this trait was made, but we have it now, so the trait should be reworked accordingly.

I mean this is the most obvious solution.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

There’s not a single trait in the game that counters Bunker builds or Power builds.

So no.. that’s not how it works.

Saiyan.1704:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

There’s not a single trait in the game that counters Bunker builds or Power builds.

So no.. that’s not how it works.

Stone Heart counters crit, which is power, not to mention that toughness counters power and there isn’t an equivalent condi stat.

The price of going condi is being countered by anyone with some cleanse.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

There’s not a single trait in the game that counters Bunker builds or Power builds.

So no.. that’s not how it works.

Stone Heart counters crit, which is power, not to mention that toughness counters power and there isn’t an equivalent condi stat.

The price of going condi is being countered by anyone with some cleanse.

Stone Heart is definitely not a counter to power builds… Power builds can work around the Earth Attunement, having a window of opportunity to burst during Fire/Water/Air attunements. Considering it takes about two (sometimes three) classes to efficiently burst down a Cele D/D Ele, the same can definitely happen if the Ele goes Stone Heart. Just don’t burst when he’s in Earth….

VS Diamond Skin
Two condi classes can’t burst down the Ele.
Three Condi Classes can’t burst down the Ele
This assumes they’re Carrion and not the under performing Rabids amulet.

Exactly what makes you feel that these two traits are on the same performance levels in terms of what they’re meant to do?

I have no idea why anyone would defend the current iteration of Diamond Skin. It’s an obviously flawed design.

nearlight.3064:

Obviously diamond skin should be reworked to grant 2s of resistance on either swapping to earth (similar to rock solid) or resistance from using a glyph. We didn’t have resistance when this trait was made, but we have it now, so the trait should be reworked accordingly.

I mean this is the most obvious solution.

No. It must not. Moving toward this idea would only push the use of cantrips with water attunement as the only solution against an heavy condition pressure.

Saiyan.1704:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

There’s not a single trait in the game that counters Bunker builds or Power builds.

So no.. that’s not how it works.

Stone Heart counters crit, which is power, not to mention that toughness counters power and there isn’t an equivalent condi stat.

The price of going condi is being countered by anyone with some cleanse.

Stone Heart is definitely not a counter to power builds… Power builds can work around the Earth Attunement, having a window of opportunity to burst during Fire/Water/Air attunements. Considering it takes about two (sometimes three) classes to efficiently burst down a Cele D/D Ele, the same can definitely happen if the Ele goes Stone Heart. Just don’t burst when he’s in Earth….

VS Diamond Skin
Two condi classes can’t burst down the Ele.
Three Condi Classes can’t burst down the Ele
This assumes they’re Carrion and not the under performing Rabids amulet.

Exactly what makes you feel that these two traits are on the same performance levels in terms of what they’re meant to do?

?
I’m not defending Diamond Skin, I don’t use it and I dislike the design of it, which is basically to do what sufficient cleanse already does, but more obviously and completely passively, of course only if you’re already a bunker of some kind.

You just said that there isn’t a single trait that counters Power builds, and that’s literally the only intent of Stone Heart. It doesn’t have to hard counter it to be a counter. The same goes with stacking armor. It counters power, but it doesn’t hardcounter it.

Diamond Skin is supposed to be a feast-or-famine kind of deal, where if you run into a power or hybrid you’ve wasted a whole trait line, but have a massive advantage against condis, which it is. I personally don’t like this, but while it isn’t fun it also isn’t overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. It’s been in the same state for months, and has literally only ever been possibly good in solo roaming or yoloqueue, where you might be lucky enough to run into a condi user whose day you can ruin.

Not to mention “three condi users can’t take down a ds ele” really makes me wonder why someone was running three condi users in a roaming or spvp group. I can’t think of any reason why that would be a good idea, with or without diamond skin.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

what if guardians got a new trait that makes them immune to ele skills when all 3 of their virtues are not in cooldown.

would you be fine with that since it counters eles now?

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

There’s not a single trait in the game that counters Bunker builds or Power builds.

So no.. that’s not how it works.

Stone Heart counters crit, which is power, not to mention that toughness counters power and there isn’t an equivalent condi stat.

The price of going condi is being countered by anyone with some cleanse.

Stone Heart is definitely not a counter to power builds… Power builds can work around the Earth Attunement, having a window of opportunity to burst during Fire/Water/Air attunements. Considering it takes about two (sometimes three) classes to efficiently burst down a Cele D/D Ele, the same can definitely happen if the Ele goes Stone Heart. Just don’t burst when he’s in Earth….

VS Diamond Skin
Two condi classes can’t burst down the Ele.
Three Condi Classes can’t burst down the Ele
This assumes they’re Carrion and not the under performing Rabids amulet.

Exactly what makes you feel that these two traits are on the same performance levels in terms of what they’re meant to do?

You just said that there isn’t a single trait that counters Power builds, and that’s literally the only intent of Stone Heart. It doesn’t have to hard counter it to be a counter. The same goes with stacking armor. It counters power, but it doesn’t hardcounter it.

Not to mention “three condi users can’t take down a ds ele” really makes me wonder why someone was running three condi users in a roaming or spvp group. I can’t think of any reason why that would be a good idea, with or without diamond skin.

Again, SH does not counter power builds. If that was its intentions then people would be screaming nerfs at an invincible ele. Luckily, that’s not the intent of kitten’s the otherway around as the meta isn’t condi.

What leads three of any build or class in a single SPvP game? SoloQ.
On that point, are pure condi teams not suppose to work in this game ar all? If Arenanet straight up says “No”, then that makes a whole lot of sense and is equally dissapointing.

Ross Biddle.2367:

uhohhotdog.3598:

If you can’t take out 10% health without conditions then your problem is bigger than your build

Thank god eles just stand there and never heal back up.

and thanks god eles don’t even have that many heals

lmao

Saiyan.1704:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

There’s not a single trait in the game that counters Bunker builds or Power builds.

So no.. that’s not how it works.

Stone Heart counters crit, which is power, not to mention that toughness counters power and there isn’t an equivalent condi stat.

The price of going condi is being countered by anyone with some cleanse.

Stone Heart is definitely not a counter to power builds… Power builds can work around the Earth Attunement, having a window of opportunity to burst during Fire/Water/Air attunements. Considering it takes about two (sometimes three) classes to efficiently burst down a Cele D/D Ele, the same can definitely happen if the Ele goes Stone Heart. Just don’t burst when he’s in Earth….

VS Diamond Skin
Two condi classes can’t burst down the Ele.
Three Condi Classes can’t burst down the Ele
This assumes they’re Carrion and not the under performing Rabids amulet.

Exactly what makes you feel that these two traits are on the same performance levels in terms of what they’re meant to do?

You just said that there isn’t a single trait that counters Power builds, and that’s literally the only intent of Stone Heart. It doesn’t have to hard counter it to be a counter. The same goes with stacking armor. It counters power, but it doesn’t hardcounter it.

Not to mention “three condi users can’t take down a ds ele” really makes me wonder why someone was running three condi users in a roaming or spvp group. I can’t think of any reason why that would be a good idea, with or without diamond skin.

Again, SH does not counter power builds. If that was its intentions then people would be screaming nerfs at an invincible ele. Luckily, that’s not the intent of kitten’s the otherway around as the meta isn’t condi.

What leads three of any build or class in a single SPvP game? SoloQ.
On that point, are pure condi teams not suppose to work in this game ar all? If Arenanet straight up says “No”, then that makes a whole lot of sense and is equally dissapointing.

Well if you look at how conditions and cleanses work, it’s obvious that a pure condi team will never be viable, or even remotely good, so long as people continue to run lots of cleanse, which they will until debilitating conditions stop being available to power users.
So long as the same cleanses that are useful against half the cc in the game remove the entirety of condition damage, conditions will never be strong in organized play, unless conditions are buffed to the point of absurdity (as in, so strong that it’s actually impossible to even survive without fully speccing into cleanses), or cleanses are nerfed to the point of near uselessness.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Saiyan.1704:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

There’s not a single trait in the game that counters Bunker builds or Power builds.

So no.. that’s not how it works.

Stone Heart counters crit, which is power, not to mention that toughness counters power and there isn’t an equivalent condi stat.

The price of going condi is being countered by anyone with some cleanse.

Stone Heart is definitely not a counter to power builds… Power builds can work around the Earth Attunement, having a window of opportunity to burst during Fire/Water/Air attunements. Considering it takes about two (sometimes three) classes to efficiently burst down a Cele D/D Ele, the same can definitely happen if the Ele goes Stone Heart. Just don’t burst when he’s in Earth….

VS Diamond Skin
Two condi classes can’t burst down the Ele.
Three Condi Classes can’t burst down the Ele
This assumes they’re Carrion and not the under performing Rabids amulet.

Exactly what makes you feel that these two traits are on the same performance levels in terms of what they’re meant to do?

You just said that there isn’t a single trait that counters Power builds, and that’s literally the only intent of Stone Heart. It doesn’t have to hard counter it to be a counter. The same goes with stacking armor. It counters power, but it doesn’t hardcounter it.

Not to mention “three condi users can’t take down a ds ele” really makes me wonder why someone was running three condi users in a roaming or spvp group. I can’t think of any reason why that would be a good idea, with or without diamond skin.

Again, SH does not counter power builds. If that was its intentions then people would be screaming nerfs at an invincible ele. Luckily, that’s not the intent of kitten’s the otherway around as the meta isn’t condi.

What leads three of any build or class in a single SPvP game? SoloQ.
On that point, are pure condi teams not suppose to work in this game ar all? If Arenanet straight up says “No”, then that makes a whole lot of sense and is equally dissapointing.

Well if you look at how conditions and cleanses work, it’s obvious that a pure condi team will never be viable, or even remotely good, so long as people continue to run lots of cleanse, which they will until debilitating conditions stop being available to power users.
So long as the same cleanses that are useful against half the cc in the game remove the entirety of condition damage, conditions will never be strong in organized play, unless conditions are buffed to the point of absurdity (as in, so strong that it’s actually impossible to even survive without fully speccing into cleanses), or cleanses are nerfed to the point of near uselessness.

The only thing killing full condi teams are
Shout guards in a 2v2+ skirmish fight – but we can rotate around them. (most builds or teams can)
Signet necros condi transfers, usually a 50/50 matchup 1v1 but even stronger in 2v2+ skirmish fights. Save your cleanses for their condi, don’t waste All your bursts, you should be ‘ok’.
Water cantrip Ele’s – bursts around their water attunement. Hard in 1v1 fights but surprisingly easier in 2v2 skirmish – assuming you can coordinate your bursts around Water but not at first wngagement as they have CDs.

My point is these specs and team comps are no doubt hard, discouraging any full condi team from getting together BUT we have some forms of counter play against them by out rotating, out smarting them by bursting at the right time, etc.

This is impossible to do against a DS Ele… a full condi team Can’t burst him down. 900 to 1200 power as all condi builds have incredibly low 0 crit. That means its going to be incredibly frustrating to down them, if at all. They might as well be a Bunker Cleric Guardian with cele damages.
Do you see my point?

It just seems to me that running a full condi team is literally asking to be countered.

The rare cases where you completely stomp a team because they didn’t bring cleanses will be always outnumbered by the normal cases where you get horribly stomped because they did bring cleanses.
Even in any sort of team fight, having a single power user alone will render DS completely harmless.

I guess my real question is, why would you ever rotate three people to a DS ele without a power user? It just seems very contrived to me, in that in a fight of that size you would assume there would be enough coordination to bring at least a single person who can do direct damage, DS or not.
It’s nearly exactly like asking for a full team with no cleanses to be viable.

Diamond skin is fine. Most people actually choose not to use it because of it’s very situational effectiveness. Anyway by choosing the earth line you are sacrificing tons of damage.

Why even run earth line over OP fire right now?

even than, its debatable between can’t be crit in earth / diamond skin…

Diamond skin will only be good in 1v1s… in a team fight… you will be dropping below the threshold EASILY…and I’ve ran into more burst players than condi heavy players..

SkiTz.4590:

Why even run earth line over OP fire right now?

Because earth line with Diamond Skin can replace water at the moment when built around, and you can also give up cantrips for something else. The suggestion is also made in consideration of the Tempest Specialization. Moreover, it is also to put down the cheese factor of Diamond Skin and push it toward a new gameplay option.

Alekt.5803:

SkiTz.4590:

Why even run earth line over OP fire right now?

Because earth line with Diamond Skin can replace water at the moment when built around, and you can also give up cantrips for something else. The suggestion is also made in consideration of the Tempest Specialization. Moreover, it is also to put down the cheese factor of Diamond Skin and push it toward a new gameplay option.

I would argue with you, but I don’t even know where to begin on this one.
There is no ele build without water and/or cantrips that is viable, period, not to mention that building around Diamond Skin actually requires taking water for at least the sustain.

i guess i am totally a non meta tool…i run earth/water/arcana. I switch between Diamond and Stone quite often, depending on whether or not i think my foes are mainly condi or power based. I think all the OP suggestions were fairly solid. I also powerful aura in water just for joy of auras. Elemental shielding is just a wonderful icing on the top. I have fun with my staff support build.

@P Fun Daddy.1208
I hope you know i’m not trying to argue just to argue. I truly want to understand the semantics around Conditions in the game. Currently DS goes against the “any build type can work” motto. These build types being power, sustains, and condi. There isn’t any other trait that acts like DS does.

As far as “why wouldn’t anyone bring a power build?”.. well, why wouldn’t anyone bring a condi build? Condi Should be another form of damage, soft countering classes who choose to go with a 10k burst damage and skip condi defenses. That’s fine, I understand that.

Condi cleanses… regardless of any other reduced duration traits, abilities or equipment, condi cleanse is this game’s main form of condi defense. The game is balanced based on a certain unbalanced items. Go 100% in one direction may seem OP until you hit a brick wall; a build that soft counters you. Not a trait that hard counters you.

DS is a direct counter, not a soft counter. like other traits in the game. It’s only useful when it’s against full condi team. Numerous people disagree with the way the trait handles conditions. You said yourself that you dislike the trait and it’s not because it is OP in any way. Again, it’s the mechanic that i’m trying to wrap my head around. Not the performance factor of Earth Attunement. It could have been any other trait in any other tree on any other class.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Alekt.5803:

SkiTz.4590:

Why even run earth line over OP fire right now?

Because earth line with Diamond Skin can replace water at the moment when built around, and you can also give up cantrips for something else. The suggestion is also made in consideration of the Tempest Specialization. Moreover, it is also to put down the cheese factor of Diamond Skin and push it toward a new gameplay option.

I would argue with you, but I don’t even know where to begin on this one.
There is no ele build without water and/or cantrips that is viable, period, not to mention that building around Diamond Skin actually requires taking water for at least the sustain.

I run a perfectly viable Air Earth Arcane build myself in tournaments.

Saiyan.1704:

@P Fun Daddy.1208
I hope you know i’m not trying to argue just to argue. I truly want to understand the semantics around Conditions in the game. Currently DS goes against the “any build type can work” motto. These build types being power, sustains, and condi. There isn’t any other trait that acts like DS does.

As far as “why wouldn’t anyone bring a power build?”.. well, why wouldn’t anyone bring a condi build? Condi Should be another form of damage, soft countering classes who choose to go with a 10k burst damage and skip condi defenses. That’s fine, I understand that.

Condi cleanses… regardless of any other reduced duration traits, abilities or equipment, condi cleanse is this game’s main form of condi defense. The game is balanced based on a certain unbalanced items. Go 100% in one direction may seem OP until you hit a brick wall; a build that soft counters you. Not a trait that hard counters you.

DS is a direct counter, not a soft counter. like other traits in the game. It’s only useful when it’s against full condi team. Numerous people disagree with the way the trait handles conditions. You said yourself that you dislike the trait and it’s not because it is OP in any way. Again, it’s the mechanic that i’m trying to wrap my head around. Not the performance factor of Earth Attunement. It could have been any other trait in any other tree on any other class.

I think the real disconnect that we have here is that I’m thinking from a team-based perspective, while you’re thinking from an individual’s perspective.

Diamond skin is one of those things that can be horribly obnoxious to the individual, but like any other cheesy hard counter against a single build type falls off against a team. My only defense of it is that it isn’t actually overpowered in any mode, despite how some people think it is. While it might not be fun, it is completely on budget in how it acts, and I haven’t seen a solution yet that allows it to actually function in a way that is worthy of a grandmaster slot and isn’t a clone of another traitline’s function (I am of course assuming that Anet won’t just replace it with something actually fitting the earth line, like something that makes bleeds worthwhile).

We absolutely don’t need more boons, I feel, so putting resistance on it would probably be a mistake, turning it into another triggered cleanse also seems odd to me since that’s sort of the point of water. Pretty much every other suggestion has been straight nerfs, and that doesn’t make much sense to me either.

My personal suggestion is to leave the thing alone, and if it ever actually becomes strong to immediately nerf it so that it is once again subpar but not actually unusable, as it has been since its release in the current form.
It’s fine to have a hardcounter for a single build type with that kind of investment (going bunker with a full traitline dedicated to it), but what irks me is how passive, and binary, it is. It’s either too strong or useless in any individual fight, with basically no middle ground, and the worst part is that this is determined without any regard to actual player input. It’s a completely stagnant mechanic, and the only reason I defend it is because of those who either think it’s actually strong, or can’t figure out how to compensate for it and don’t want to have to.

I’m getting pretty tired, so that got a little bit ranty and probably somewhat incomprehensible, sorry.

Darknicrofia.2604:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

what if guardians got a new trait that makes them immune to ele skills when all 3 of their virtues are not in cooldown.

would you be fine with that since it counters eles now?

You’re comparing a build to an entire profession. The trait doesn’t make you completely immune. Just do damage to them and then unload conditions.

@P Fun Daddy.1208
Not at all you, you explained well! Though I still dislike and disagree with it, I have a sense of closure about the trait now.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Darknicrofia.2604:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Some builds are meant to counter other builds. That’s how it works.

what if guardians got a new trait that makes them immune to ele skills when all 3 of their virtues are not in cooldown.

would you be fine with that since it counters eles now?

You’re comparing a build to an entire profession. The trait doesn’t make you completely immune. Just do damage to them and then unload conditions.

Agreed, a better analogy would be Necros having a trait that applies a 240 radius effect that prevents classes from receiving any boons if the necro is at 90% health. Not a big deal in TPvP as it’s only 90% health. But considering this class can somewhat beat Ele already in a single combat, it’s only natural that Ele would complain about the trait. It doesn’t stop there. Since the current meta is sustains (oppose to DS that targets condi) other sustain classes and classes who are in a sustain tree, would qq.

Alekt.5803:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Alekt.5803:

SkiTz.4590:

Why even run earth line over OP fire right now?

Because earth line with Diamond Skin can replace water at the moment when built around, and you can also give up cantrips for something else. The suggestion is also made in consideration of the Tempest Specialization. Moreover, it is also to put down the cheese factor of Diamond Skin and push it toward a new gameplay option.

I would argue with you, but I don’t even know where to begin on this one.
There is no ele build without water and/or cantrips that is viable, period, not to mention that building around Diamond Skin actually requires taking water for at least the sustain.

I run a perfectly viable Air Earth Arcane build myself in tournaments.

Build link?
I would like to try this build.

because right now, I see no reason to bring a sub optimal build like that unless you are just going for bursty ele..

SkiTz.4590:

Alekt.5803:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Alekt.5803:

SkiTz.4590:

Why even run earth line over OP fire right now?

Because earth line with Diamond Skin can replace water at the moment when built around, and you can also give up cantrips for something else. The suggestion is also made in consideration of the Tempest Specialization. Moreover, it is also to put down the cheese factor of Diamond Skin and push it toward a new gameplay option.

I would argue with you, but I don’t even know where to begin on this one.
There is no ele build without water and/or cantrips that is viable, period, not to mention that building around Diamond Skin actually requires taking water for at least the sustain.

I run a perfectly viable Air Earth Arcane build myself in tournaments.

Build link?
I would like to try this build.

because right now, I see no reason to bring a sub optimal build like that unless you are just going for bursty ele..

Sure. But it is far from being easy. (Though, according to enemy, it is easy.)

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_Air_DS/CES_Condition_Staff

P.S. DONT get Runes of Nightmare as told in the build. It is bugged right now, and will permanently disable your Lightning Rod until you respec.

You can also swap Signet of Earth for Conjure Frost Bow.
You can also swap Sigil of Doom for Sigil of Nullification.