Guild Wars 2

redslion.9675:

Wait a second… stun spam warriors exist since a long time. Did you find out now it is annoying to play against them (I bet before you laughed at the slow and stupid warrior with the hammer)?

I think what bothers you is the burst that follows in greatsword builds.

except that they buffed the stun durations from f1 skills and made healing signet ridiculous op…

Ceraldor.3160:

redslion.9675:

Wait a second… stun spam warriors exist since a long time. Did you find out now it is annoying to play against them (I bet before you laughed at the slow and stupid warrior with the hammer)?

I think what bothers you is the burst that follows in greatsword builds.

except that they buffed the stun durations from f1 skills and made healing signet ridiculous op…

Just 1 second for Skull Crack.

If now that most builds only run mace you feel oppressed by stuns, how could you feel against a warrior using also hammer (which could and can effectively chain bursts and stun you forever if you don’t do anything)?

Yeah, yeah, I know the story: “a passive can’t be that strong”. Seems like activating the heal has become a high risk, high reward move. I don’t think it should be compared it with other passive heals, for most of them (like altruistic healing) don’t occupy your #6 slot.

Oh, and I’d like to remind that the “war of attrition” you used to play was in fact an easy no skill victory against a warrior.

redslion.9675:

Ceraldor.3160:

redslion.9675:

Wait a second… stun spam warriors exist since a long time. Did you find out now it is annoying to play against them (I bet before you laughed at the slow and stupid warrior with the hammer)?

I think what bothers you is the burst that follows in greatsword builds.

except that they buffed the stun durations from f1 skills and made healing signet ridiculous op…

Just 1 second for Skull Crack.

If now that most builds only run mace you feel oppressed by stuns, how could you feel against a warrior using also hammer (which could and can effectively chain bursts and stun you forever if you don’t do anything)?

Yeah, yeah, I know the story: “a passive can’t be that strong”. Seems like activating the heal has become a high risk, high reward move. I don’t think it should be compared it with other passive heals, for most of them (like altruistic healing) don’t occupy your #6 slot.

Oh, and I’d like to remind that the “war of attrition” you used to play was in fact an easy no skill victory against a warrior.

just 1s? that was a 50% buff.
in addition berserker stance is probably the most op skill in the game right now. Though I’m not saying warrior is the strongest class – for sure not. But saying warrior was always like he is now, is just not true…

Ceraldor.3160:

just 1s? that was a 50% buff.
in addition berserker stance is probably the most op skill in the game right now. Though I’m not saying warrior is the strongest class – for sure not. But saying warrior was always like he is now, is just not true…

It was a 33% buff. Any warrior using Mace will bring sigil of paralyzation. The buff thus brought Skull Crack stun duration from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.

No, I’m not saying this. But I’m saying old stunlock builds used to have even more cc (it’s to sey they had much less of anything else) by also using hammer (another 3 seconds stun with sigil of paralyzation, without counting knockbacks and knockdowns).

If the problem, as the OP says, is not about warriors being over the top (and many things indicate they are not), but about the fact they are annoying to play against, it should have been noted a long time ago.

with the difference that you could kill a warrior much easier “some time” ago which made them less “annoying” cause they were dead before they stun locked you

I think the much higher surv makes people much more aware of the potential of warriors (whatever that potential might be)…

The OP Forget the mesmer.

They need to rework the clone spam and the animation of skills such as “Mind Wrack”.

The warrior is not that strong as people say. When you fight a warrior you only fight him, not clones, pets, minions, spirit weapons, turrets so its easy to see and evade him so much easely than other classes. The warrior is the class that have the best and longest animations. A CC warrior needs to be in 130-150 range to be efective and if you bring one stun breaker (that with dodges to evade shied bash and earthshaker – their animation are obvious) or stability (dont use it when you get a 1 sec stun) the warrior is screwed. The other classes OP said plus mesmers in my opinion dont have this weakness.

Fix #1-3. #4 & 5 are fine. /signed by engi/warrior player

But seriously,
#4. I would look at the ‘unsuspecting foe’ trait. That’s what really boosts their dmg during the stun. I think the mace/shield stuns are fine in a defensive or utility build, but they shouldn’t be able to pair all that damage with that long of a stun on so short a cooldown.
#5. I would at least partially revert the previous elixir r nerf. Let the elixir R be instant cast again, but not break stuns (U & S already break stun). Let elixir R also cure immobilize, chill, and cripple (this would fit with the theme of endurance refill and trying to kite/evade attackers). Nerf Toss Elixir R to not be able to heal a downed player past ~95% hp. Then engineers would not be able to resurrect themselves solo, but could still assist in getting downed players up in team fights.

You can’t change S/D thieves evade frames, because it the only thing that lets them actually see frontline combat. There’s no toughness, no high vit, no IMBA condi removal, no blocks, no invuln etc. They depend on the evade frames (and opponents inability to learn those evade frames to know when they can hit the thief and when they shouldn’t spam skills mindless) in order to stay alive for a short while and deal some damage instead of insta flopping the moment they are noticed. That’s why D/P thieves die a lot more than S/D ones, stealth is really not the answer to defense in tpvp (despite it may give you great results in WvW), and the high burst they can do is so fast offset by their very low survival as soon as they pop out of stealth to land the BS, and they end up spending more time in downstate / waiting ress timer than actively participating in their team effort.

Agree with most of the points except Elixir R. If the guy drops it, stop DPSing him and let him waste it, or just CC him away from the rez bubble. Its not that bad.

About S/D Thief. After using Larcenous the thief could get a debuff like Revealed, that makes the thief wait 1-2 seconds before being able to use flanking strike again. But if you do that, sword autoattack chain needs to be buffed because its utter crap at the moment.

If making that debuff is impossible due to technical difficulties, fixing shadow return so you can’t use it to get back while CC’ed would still do wonders in toning down S/D Thiefs. This way, when you DO happen to hit them, they get punished like they should.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Let’s analyse the builds in order or power, which require nerfs because they aren’t fun.

1, Spirit ranger

2, S/d Thief

3, Terror necro

4, Stun lock warrior

5, Elixr r

1. Counter to Spirit Ranger is Warrior.

2. Counter to thieves is Spirit Rangers and Engies. Or just major CC when he is not evading. Learn to see when he is not evading. It’s not that hard.

3. Counter for this is a Warrior as well. CC the hell out of him and he won’t be a problem.

4. Bring stunbreakers and don’t waste them on the 1s shield stun like most idiots do. Use blind effectively.

5. If it’s a 1vs1 situation, why would you kill him when he’s standing on the elixir? Wait for it to disappear or knock him off it. You can also out dps it with some classes, even in 1vs1. If it’s a team fight you should have enough dmg to counter it easily.

Sorry, but all I see is L2P issue here.

I agree with about everything (main ideas) except for Elixir R. Elixir R was a bit too much before, but now engineers lost the breakstun from it so now this skill is OK.
It’s a bit frustrating yeah, but there’s counterplay : immediately stop attacking as long as it’s in effect, then destroy the engineer.
Also quite disagree about the warrior. I agree this is frustrating but Hammer& M/x warriors have very low DPS though they stun a lot. Hammer& LB or Rifle don’t have the necessary DPS to get you down while they stun you and they can stun you less. Finally, only Hammer & LS warriors can stun you AND have the DPS to destroy you, BUT they have to be zerk most of the time and they lose any ranged option, being forced to play to close areas with walls, while you can pull them to open spaces to range them to death.
Also I would add that the necro has counters (especially KD warriors) we have to admit it BUT it’s far from enough. Some necros have so much survivability that they can still win, or at least escape a fight against some decent stunning warrior …
TL;DR : Agree with OP except for Elixir R and only partly with warrior

Amplifier.1704:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Let’s analyse the builds in order or power, which require nerfs because they aren’t fun.

1, Spirit ranger

2, S/d Thief

3, Terror necro

4, Stun lock warrior

5, Elixr r

1. Counter to Spirit Ranger is Warrior.

2. Counter to thieves is Spirit Rangers and Engies. Or just major CC when he is not evading. Learn to see when he is not evading. It’s not that hard.

3. Counter for this is a Warrior as well. CC the hell out of him and he won’t be a problem.

4. Bring stunbreakers and don’t waste them on the 1s shield stun like most idiots do. Use blind effectively.

5. If it’s a 1vs1 situation, why would you kill him when he’s standing on the elixir? Wait for it to disappear or knock him off it. You can also out dps it with some classes, even in 1vs1. If it’s a team fight you should have enough dmg to counter it easily.

Sorry, but all I see is L2P issue here.

4. Oh cool! Because I got stunbreakers on a 7-9 second cooldown.

Sorry, but all I see is a lack of knowledge issue here.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Amplifier.1704:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Let’s analyse the builds in order or power, which require nerfs because they aren’t fun.

1, Spirit ranger

2, S/d Thief

3, Terror necro

4, Stun lock warrior

5, Elixr r

1. Counter to Spirit Ranger is Warrior.

2. Counter to thieves is Spirit Rangers and Engies. Or just major CC when he is not evading. Learn to see when he is not evading. It’s not that hard.

3. Counter for this is a Warrior as well. CC the hell out of him and he won’t be a problem.

4. Bring stunbreakers and don’t waste them on the 1s shield stun like most idiots do. Use blind effectively.

5. If it’s a 1vs1 situation, why would you kill him when he’s standing on the elixir? Wait for it to disappear or knock him off it. You can also out dps it with some classes, even in 1vs1. If it’s a team fight you should have enough dmg to counter it easily.

Sorry, but all I see is L2P issue here.

4. Oh cool! Because I got stunbreakers on a 7-9 second cooldown.

Sorry, but all I see is a lack of knowledge issue here.

You are not supposed to cleanse every single stun of the warrior. Or do you want to win automatically?

In my opinion, stunbreakers are not the best solution. Go and take a look into the warrior’s forum. There are some ideas on how to counter the mace.

Or even better: play a similar warrior yourself for some time in the mists, if you don’t hate them too much. It won’t take long to understand the rhytms and limits of the build and learn how not to fall quickly for the combo.

As many other things, is easier done than said: you will feel what a warrior is going to do next, almost.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

4. Oh cool! Because I got stunbreakers on a 7-9 second cooldown.

Sorry, but all I see is a lack of knowledge issue here.

And you are telling me that the warrior ALWAYS hits his mace stun? It never gets dodged, bodyblocked by pets or blinded?

Atm warrior is very stong in 1vs1 in this meta imo. But I don’t see the problem here. He’s good in some 1vs1s, but if he is being pressured by the enemy team in a fight he can’t stand there long.

Thief initiative regen is broken. Has been forever. You’re never going to have things like pistol whip, larcenous strike, or infiltrator’s strike balanced until initiative regen is looked at. There’s nothing wrong with any of these skills though and it’s stupid to try and nerf them independently.

Rangers are only here because the meta is condition. Remove the condition meta and they’ll be gone. With that said, set the spirit cooldown to 30 seconds and make it start after the pet dies and I’m sure most rangers would be fine with it. HOWEVER! Spirits and Signets need to be changed at the same time to no longer require a 30pt investment before they’re even worth a skill slot. As for the weapon evades, they’re on moderately long cooldowns on a class that currently isn’t running any stun breaks or stability because of the current meta.

Warrior Regen and SoR is the issue, not their stun breaks. There’s nothing wrong with having a control class in this game. There’s nothing wrong with that control class dishing out high burst off of a hammer stun. There’s a problem when that class is healing so much each second.

The meta is horrible at the moment. It feels brainless and spammy. I started playing a necro a week ago, and it’s getting boring already. Spam and spam some more. Also, why are there so many builds you can’t do anything against, most of the time? As a necro you chain-fear people to death, if they can’t break out of it/ or they don’t have stability. As a warrior you cc and stun people to death, if they don’t have any stunbreakers. Also thieves eating your whole hp in seconds. I won’t even start commenting on spirit rangers… This game is so fast at times that you go from 20000 to 0 in a couple of seconds. If a necro is putting condis on you, you don’t even have the time to look at what condis, or how many stacks he put on you. You just spam your condi-cleanses, like there’s no tomorrow. It’s just stupid. And if he runs spite, you’ll have almost every single condi on you in 1 hit. Really? Now try to cleanse that off. I wish the game would just slow the heck down, so you could actually think about what you’re doing and not spamming you skills and evades and hoping that you’ll win by luck… This game has a lot of potential, but ANET has to really do something, in order for this game to be/ and stay competitive.

PsyOnic.3108:

As a necro you chain-fear people to death, if they can’t break out of it/ or they don’t have stability. As a warrior you cc and stun people to death, if they don’t have any stunbreakers.

That’s definitely a problem. You know this happens when devs don’t learn from other games. Used to be like that in warhammer online as well (and i’m sure in lots of other games), until they finally introduced an immunity timer. They chose to add stability
(boon) instead of an immunity timer. Too bad this is not working very well…

Amplifier.1704:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

4. Oh cool! Because I got stunbreakers on a 7-9 second cooldown.

Sorry, but all I see is a lack of knowledge issue here.

And you are telling me that the warrior ALWAYS hits his mace stun? It never gets dodged, bodyblocked by pets or blinded?

Atm warrior is very stong in 1vs1 in this meta imo. But I don’t see the problem here. He’s good in some 1vs1s, but if he is being pressured by the enemy team in a fight he can’t stand there long.

Im not saying Warrior is overpowered. But the solution you offered isn’t as ideal as blind/cripple/chill aplication and kitting.

I have to agree the problem right now is the sheer amount of cc. GW2 has become stun wars. We can discuss weather this or that spec is better at it but still the problem is anet guaranteed before the release that stunlocks would never become possible in gw2 since it’s not fun being killed without being able to do anything. Which is exactly what’s happening now. Also soft control is a problem. Immobilize, permablind? big problem.

I used to play ele now i just dont see the point. I got 2 stunbreakers and lightning flash to get out of troubles but still not enough and with 3 cantrips i kitten ridiculously my damage. Not enough control right now means not enough damage and stunbreakers dont guarantee survivability since 1 utility simply cant cope with a cc that can be used every (depends on spec) 5/10 secs.

I also agree with op about all the “evade builds” (mainly ranger, thief) running around. Basically ridiculous. Does that require skill? Maybe if 2 of the same confront each other (say 2 s/d thieves) but other than that not so much.

I have an issue also about stealth (d/p thieves, mesmers with torch). Not incredible op but basically u have aoe or suck. And please explain me how spamming random aoe is fun.

My last issue is progression in pvp. We are supposed to go from hj to solo to team. But simply as it is hj promotes bad playing. Just encourages players to zerg and not care about points not to mention some builds which are not viable at high level may seem viable in hj (cause EVERYTHING works in hj, just everything). Solo queue promotes builds that can 1v1 and basically punishes support since soloing will never ever encourage players to collaborate while support might be useful at high level.

Over buffing is the reason we are in this mess because a bunch of overrated kittens said my class isn’t op just buff him.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Your hyperbole about how obscene the DPS of engineers is is blatantly mistaken.

I think we will all agree on how obscene it is now that there is another class that matches its aoe dps output or at least comes near in combo with cc.

Sensotix.4106:

+1 to this but please also dont forget to buff mesmer and ele with some of the tipps u get from the community

If they buff Mesmer they should also nerf it hard, because it’s the best 1v1 class right now, with absolutely huge survivability and easy-mode AI damage.

What do you want the thief to do? They’ve no stability, which’s an insta-on, fire and forget, look ma-no button to push in a meta choke full of CC.

They take a few hits or 1 HB from a stun spamming warrior and down they go. Plus thieves are trading a lot of burst and condi removal for that endless evade, which pretty much turns them into food for necros and rangers.

I actually think the spirit rangers, engineers and condi necros (in that order) are the worse problem. Those builds are so braindead to play and yet dish extremely powerful. Aoe, dmg while being able to tank practically everything. They don’t even need to aim, or target, because most of their attacks don’t need line of sight. How much more brain dead can it get?

But gotta watch for the Mesmer too, they’re just as brain dead, and only currently overshadowed by the other worse offenders.

Down with the spirit rangers!

+1 ..easy to fix problems ruin tournament (and overall pvp) experience

Fjandi.2516:

PsyOnic.3108:

As a necro you chain-fear people to death, if they can’t break out of it/ or they don’t have stability. As a warrior you cc and stun people to death, if they don’t have any stunbreakers.

That’s definitely a problem. You know this happens when devs don’t learn from other games. Used to be like that in warhammer online as well (and i’m sure in lots of other games), until they finally introduced an immunity timer. They chose to add stability
(boon) instead of an immunity timer. Too bad this is not working very well…

Here is what people and A-net fail to realize, and I’m also echoing comments others have made. The problem in the balancing philosphy of the game is that they focus on the two extremes. Let’s take a look at this:

1. Conditions were trivialized because of the amount of condition cleanses
2. Nerfs to condition cleanses
3. Buff to conditions

What’s the problem here? In this scenario those with a minor amount of conditions or cleanses, but necessary for their builds to succeed are now trivialized. They did this with boons and boon removal and they’ll eventually do it with cc/stuns and cc breaks. The whole model is broken when you only focus on the two extremes and are not able to find a middle ground. Necros are the perfect example of this.

Agree, the 5 things listed need to get nerfed.

BUT do not just nerf the OP stuff, buff the unused and looked over things as well. Look at weapon sets that see little use, or talent trees that just don’t cut the mustard.

did the OP just cry about more than half the classes in the game?

it sounds like he just doesn’t want to respec to adapt to the new meta.

the only thing remotely OP is the evade thief and I wouldn’t nerf that just yet either.

Serdoc.7261:

Agree, the 5 things listed need to get nerfed.

BUT do not just nerf the OP stuff, buff the unused and looked over things as well. Look at weapon sets that see little use, or talent trees that just don’t cut the mustard.

the 5 things that you want nerfed were just buffed because they weren’t cutting the mustard previously.

make up your mind…

then stop copy builds and setups from “good” teams and start use your brain for counter out this “bad meta”, instead whine all time around on forums.

all of this “op builds” are able to play out.
so bad joke when 2 days after patch all think we have a new meta and stop try around.

its all time the same player names whine here.
my idea for anet, ignore forum
you cant make this ppls happy, the old meta was also soooo bad.
it was same qq.

old ele qq
old shatter mes qq
old trapper ranger qq
old bm ranger qq
old backstab thief qq
old nade ingi qq
old hgh engi qq
some bomb engi qq
now necro qq
now spirit ranger qq
now s/d thief qq
also now cc warrior qq soon?

i forgot something?…
all time the same players whine about the actual meta.
maybe you should whine about your less player skill or look for better game.
one of both is the reason

keep playing instead camp on forum and wait for next discussion topics…

WE NEED MORE BUILD DIVERSITY, GUISE. THE BUILDS ARE NOT ENOUGH.

MOAR!

IF BM RANGERS WERE NOT NERFED TO USELESSNESS AND SPIRIT RANGERS WERE BUFFED, WE WILL HAVE 2 RANGER BUILDS.

SO NERFING SUCKS. BUFF AND BUFF.

ensoriki.5789:

Wot. The. Puppy.
You’re talking about Bountiful theft? The only option a thief has against stability unless they take S/D specifically? What are you suggesting here Folli.

What I’m saying is what happens when I want to use my heal skill and a thief has his steal up? Since steal is instant, it’s far easier to interrupt with it than other interrupts that have some kind of cast time. Moreover, it’s a ranged interrupt since it teleports the thief to the target. That by itself is very very good as it is, as headshot is basically the same.

However, traited steal is by far the best interrupt. Normally one of the ways I can safely get my heal off is by using a CC on the person trying to interrupt. Steal is usable while CC’d, so this will not work. Another way to get your heal off is with stability, but again steal will steal stability and then interrupt you. So I’m really lost here, as I’m wondering what I’m supposed to do against a good thief. The only options I see are to:

1. Use my heal right away, let it be interrupted, and spam evasion until I can use it again, and then use CC or stability with my heal.
2. Try to line of sight?

I just don’t know. It worries me because it’s something that can be extremely strong and yet I don’t know what to do about it. We don’t see it a lot, because lets face it: not a lot of players are confident enough to play d/p when they can just play s/d. But I’m just looking at the future, especially when these “cheese” builds get nerfed.

ensoriki.5789:

Everything being visual with cast would be lovely (though slow) and to be blunt I don’t think it’s a reality for the immediate or even distant future.

It might not be realistic, or done in a timely manner, but I think it can be done. A great example of a weaponset with good animations on it is the mesmer greatsword. After a little practice you can reliably react to what the mesmer is throwing at you. I can dodge the bezerker, the knockback, the sword throw pretty reliably if I’m looking for it, and I’m definitely no where near the fastest out there.

Poxxia.1547:

PPS: @Folly: If everything important has a cast-time, then isn’t it almost mandatory to also look at animations of the various races? I play a asura’s for the looks of them, but their animations sure are harder to tell.

This definitely needs to be looked at. If you’re a guardian using a hammer, then it’s basically mandatory to play an asura because you’re way more likely to land banish (the knockback).

It straight up makes it harder to tell what weaponset you’re in, and the animations that are being used. I think Asura needs to be sized up in spvp to match other races. Otherwise it’s just an advantage, and not only that but it makes a spectator-unfriendly environment.

Ok not sure if this was stated but I’m going to learn you something about the spirit elite.

First it’s not a full revive. Only heals like 80% health (you do the testing) it won’t revive someone that’s at 10% health.

2nd if you poison it…. Guess what…. It’s healing is reduced by 33%….. Woah

3rd you can interrupt it. Requires a stun or daze. Mesmer pistol works wonders.

Edit: this is becoming sad and pathetic when people just see one end of a class and think its op. play the other side a find out what’s going on.

I bet 80% of you couldn’t revive yourself with elixir r or the spirit. You would fail and use it too soon or late.

Umm.. Elixir R is pretty simple to counter. Knock him out of the radius of it.

Oidmetala.8426:

then stop copy builds and setups from “good” teams and start use your brain for counter out this “bad meta”, instead whine all time around on forums.

all of this “op builds” are able to play out.
so bad joke when 2 days after patch all think we have a new meta and stop try around.

its all time the same player names whine here.
my idea for anet, ignore forum
you cant make this ppls happy, the old meta was also soooo bad.
it was same qq.

old ele qq
old shatter mes qq
old trapper ranger qq
old bm ranger qq
old backstab thief qq
old nade ingi qq
old hgh engi qq
some bomb engi qq
now necro qq
now spirit ranger qq
now s/d thief qq
also now cc warrior qq soon?

i forgot something?…
all time the same players whine about the actual meta.
maybe you should whine about your less player skill or look for better game.
one of both is the reason

keep playing instead camp on forum and wait for next discussion topics…

I think the issue has been and will continue to be each class getting a cheese build. Lets be honest most of those builds are easier to execute then they are to counter. The problem lies with the fact that it is always the case. A players uses a combo that overwhelm the enemy or negates damage done. Often I see l2p but fact is most of the players who say that play one of the aforementioned builds them self. It is a funny pattern how we push for buffs and nerfs and as our classes get stronger or weaker our opinions change. Often what is OP is op for a reason. I do agree there is a lot of whining. I also agree that many players need to realize the gap between their skills and what is OP (if anything) about an opponents build. I also have no expectations that there will be perfect balance. That being said when some things are glaringly OP shouldn’t we try to get them changed?

I have some suggestions for balancing tha classes that you people (and also me) see as overpowered, ok here are my suggestions:

Spirit ranger
To me, the best solution to turn them into a more balanced state is:

All non elite sipirits
1. Cooldown decreased to 30 seconds
2. Now the trait sipirits unbound also decreases the cooldown for spirits by 20%
3. Now the cooldown starts after they die

Spirit of nature renewal
1. Cooldown decreased to 120 seconds
2. Now its active skill has 60 seconds cooldown so it can only be used once
3. Now the trait sipirits unbound also decreases the cooldown for spirits by 20%
4. Now the cooldown starts after the spirit dies

Stunlock warrior
They are almost balanceb but they need just this change to be balanced (for me):

Skull crack
1. The duration of the stun from this skill is now 1, 1.5 and 2 seconds stun depending of the adrenaline level
2. Now this skill can hit 3 tragets

Pulverize
1. Now this skill can hit 3 tragets

Counterblow
1. The cooldown of this skill has been increased to 15 seconds
2. Now this skill does not cancel when it blocks a ranget attack
3. Now this skill can hit 3 tragets

Im not really sure about how to poperly balance terror necromancer and elixir R but at those are my opinions about spirit ranger and stunlock warrior.

On a side note: i think that engineer kits should have a 10 seconds cooldown, which can be reducet to 5 via kit refinement or speedy kits, ¿why? because i have been playing solo quee a bit and i have seen how they just 2345 switch to bombs 2345111 switch to pistol shield 32 switch to nades repeat etc, they simply spam AoE a lot without any punishement for switching in a wrong time or something, but that is just my opinion.

Tired of this meta? Get some friends together and try this out!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RREYzw6wjTVnXltv9IslcwA-fOG701FAOWqDNcI96U4/edit